Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
On Aug 15, 2009, at 8:55 PM, Chris Dunford wrote: As you know, he has been asked repeatedly for this information. I asked him at least three times in the last Zune thread to provide reasons why Zune is vastly inferior and got no response beyond the usual. This is a question that won't be answered with any logic. I think Sarah Palin joined the List under an assumed name. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
I think Sarah Palin joined the List under an assumed name. Well, I have to agree that Sarah Palin lost my vote for the Republican ticket, the official one. It would be good to see what you object to specifically with Zune, not that I generally care about mass market crap, anyway. ? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
On Sat, Aug 15, 2009 at 2:01 PM, TPiwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Aug 14, 2009, at 11:34 PM, Chris Dunford wrote: Wow. http://rantsandstuff.com/2009/06/01/nitpicking-the-zune-hd/ It’s the little things like this that make me wonder what else did they not pay that much attention to? They couldn’t have dropped the menu font just a tad to make it fit on the screen? I know I’m nitpicking but shouldn’t someone at Microsoft also be nitpicking this kind of thing? Actually that may be purposeful. A half word indicates there is more to scroll down and see. I don't think it is more elegant than the ipod scroll bar but it could be M$ trying not to totally copy look and feel. -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
Well we know from sales figures the Zune isn't mass market so you must be referring to Tom. On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 10:18 AM, Eric S. Sande esa...@erols.com wrote: I think Sarah Palin joined the List under an assumed name. Well, I have to agree that Sarah Palin lost my vote for the Republican ticket, the official one. It would be good to see what you object to specifically with Zune, not that I generally care about mass market crap, anyway. ? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
I think Sarah Palin joined the List under an assumed name. The Zune Panel has noted your opinion. Thank you for participating in this public forum. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
As you know, he has been asked repeatedly for this information. I asked him at least three times in the last Zune thread to provide reasons why Zune is vastly inferior and got no response beyond the usual. This is a question that won't be answered with any logic. I think Sarah Palin joined the List under an assumed name. Tom Piwowar? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
Screen size: Remember size is roughly the square of the diagonal. Taking second digit rounding into account that could be as much as 18% difference. That is a worst case number, but it agrees pretty closely with the computation in pixels: 480x320 vs. 480x272 (17.6% more for the Touch). Yes, I think you would notice. Not for 16:9 video in landscape, but for almost everything else. Why do you think the Zune HD's menu cuts off text? Battery life: I said *advertised* battery life and I'm sticking with that. The HD numbers you quote comes from something MS reportedly sent to engadget. However, MS's own store as of a few minutes ago says 24 hours audio, 4 hours video: http://store.microsoft.com/microsoft/Zune-HD-32/product/41941DC9#ctl19_tcla_a The same numbers are at Best Buy: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=9449581st=Zune_20090816lp=1type=productcp=1id=1218106628166 (I didn't find the battery specs at Amazon.) Which set of numbers do you think MS can be held legally liable for? As so advertised, the Touch does better than the Zune HD by 50% in both video and audio. Even if MS's advertisements change to match the numbers you cite, the Touch still wins on audio. Additionally, digging into the methodology, it looks like the iPod specs are with wireless turned on and the Zune HD with it turned off, so a comparison on an equal testing basis would likely help the Touch. OLED does save energy and so does an efficient processor, but a skimpy battery could very well cancel that advantage. As for more realistic usage numbers, we'll have to wait until the HD comes out and someone does controlled side by side tests. I'd like to see that. From:Jeff Wright jswri...@gmail.com Where is the zune HD behind on the touch? Well, there's: Screen size (Zune HD) vs. (iPod Touch) 3.3 vs. 3.5 Will you really notice? advertised battery life Music: 33 hours vs. 36 hours Video: 8.5 hours vs. 6 hours The OLED tech comes through here. Bluetooth No word either way on Zune. Assume not. apps (by about 64,000 or so) No contest. Touch wins. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
On Aug 16, 2009, at 1:18 PM, Eric S. Sande wrote: It would be good to see what you object to specifically with Zune, not that I generally care about mass market crap, anyway. Someone else said it, but I will repeat it once again because it is so brilliantly succinct... M$ is skating to where the puck was, not where it will be. Is this too difficult a concept for WFBs to wrap their brains around? Do they know nothing about hockey? If M$ were to price this poor, belated copy of somebody else's work at $99 it might have some merit, just for being cheap. Priced as it is, one might as well buy a refurb of the real thing. The Zune HD 16GB will sell for $219 http://store.apple.com/us/product/FA623LL/B $159 Refurbished iPod touch, 8GB (first generation). Apple Certified. 1-year warranty. Free shipping. $279 Refurbished iPod touch, 32GB (first generation). Apple Certified. 1-year warranty. Free shipping. I'm waiting with great interest to see what Apple will roll out about the same time that the Zune HD is supposed to go on sale. I'm sure it will be far more interesting. It won't be a copy of somebody else's work. Why are you wasting your time defending such mediocrity? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
This has got to be an act, Tom can't be this obtuse and still feed himself. All the world's a stage and all the men and women are merely players. Play on Tom. On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 11:49 AM, TPiwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Aug 16, 2009, at 1:18 PM, Eric S. Sande wrote: It would be good to see what you object to specifically with Zune, not that I generally care about mass market crap, anyway. Someone else said it, but I will repeat it once again because it is so brilliantly succinct... M$ is skating to where the puck was, not where it will be. Is this too difficult a concept for WFBs to wrap their brains around? Do they know nothing about hockey? If M$ were to price this poor, belated copy of somebody else's work at $99 it might have some merit, just for being cheap. Priced as it is, one might as well buy a refurb of the real thing. The Zune HD 16GB will sell for $219 http://store.apple.com/us/product/FA623LL/B $159 Refurbished iPod touch, 8GB (first generation). Apple Certified. 1-year warranty. Free shipping. $279 Refurbished iPod touch, 32GB (first generation). Apple Certified. 1-year warranty. Free shipping. I'm waiting with great interest to see what Apple will roll out about the same time that the Zune HD is supposed to go on sale. I'm sure it will be far more interesting. It won't be a copy of somebody else's work. Why are you wasting your time defending such mediocrity? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
Why are you wasting your time defending such mediocrity? I don't waste time defending mediocrity. You all ready know my views on what is trash and what is not. These devices are seriously compromised in delivering high quality audio. And I include the Ipod. We might as well be talking about which Kenner Close 'n Play is better. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAKZ-O70wNg The red one or the blue one. It is possible to do all of this much, much better. I see no point in defending a consumer product because it says Apple or Microsoft or anything else on it. They are what they are. No one with any serious interest in music takes them as anything more than that. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
Are there any portable players with sound you do like? I'm not trying to be a smartass, just trying to educate myself. I know you follow this particular area a lot more then I do. I've never been much of a audiophile, I've listened to a LOT of music at work over the last few decades, always on portable players because that's the only way. As far as the ipod or zune, I've read multiple places the zune has a better sound processor, but I can't tell. Could you? Or are they both just too bad to even consider? Any portables out there you do like? Any suggestions for someone wanting to see if they can hear the difference? On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Eric S. Sande esa...@erols.com wrote: They are what they are. No one with any serious interest in music takes them as anything more than that. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
AH OK so you are a snob audiophile that would rather listen to a high end Macinstosh than a high end Apple. No. Not exactly. If it sounds good it is good. I don't have McIntosh gear, that isn't in my price range. But I'm pretty experienced and I can tell if what I'm hearing is a pony versus a pile of pony crap. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
AH OK so you are a snob audiophile that would rather listen to a high end Macinstosh than a high end Apple. I like. Stewart At 02:22 PM 8/16/2009, you wrote: Why are you wasting your time defending such mediocrity? I don't waste time defending mediocrity. You all ready know my views on what is trash and what is not. These devices are seriously compromised in delivering high quality audio. And I include the Ipod. We might as well be talking about which Kenner Close 'n Play is better. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAKZ-O70wNg The red one or the blue one. It is possible to do all of this much, much better. I see no point in defending a consumer product because it says Apple or Microsoft or anything else on it. They are what they are. No one with any serious interest in music takes them as anything more than that. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
Battery life: I said *advertised* battery life and I'm sticking with that. The HD numbers you quote comes from something MS reportedly sent to engadget. However, MS's own store as of a few minutes ago says 24 hours audio, 4 hours video: http://store.microsoft.com/microsoft/Zune-HD-32/product/41941DC9#ctl19_tcla _a OK, stick with whatever you want. It's from MS, that makes it a claimed battery life. It's a safe bet that both mfrs claims are exaggerated. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
On Aug 16, 2009, at 3:51 PM, Eric S. Sande wrote: But I'm pretty experienced and I can tell if what I'm hearing is a pony versus a pile of pony crap. Are you denigrating MP3 or iPods? Have you listened to an Apple lossless file on an iPod? Apple's lossless compression makes iTunes an audiophile's delight I tested Apple Lossless Encoding using some of my favorite audiophile CDs, including a few from Reference Recordings, maker of some of the highest-quality CDs I've ever heard. I heard absolutely no difference in the sound of the CD vs. the sound of the iTunes compressed version using Apple Lossless Encoding. http://aroundcny.com/Technofile/texts/mac060204.html * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
Are there any portable players with sound you do like? Sure, it's possible. Actually the Ipod isn't bad but it doesn't have a digital output that will feed a portable DAC and amp. Very good systems can be built around an Ipod but the Ipod's onboard DAC and amp are shite. As long as you see it as a music storage device it is fine, it can store WAV and FLAC files. But the key is the DA transition and enough gas to drive a pair of serious headphones. This can and has been done. It is expensive to do this. It is expensive in terms of real estate on an Ipod to store uncompressed files. But it can be done. The solutions are far less portable. If it is uncompressed digital it really doesn't matter what one saves it on, HD, Ipod, Zune, whatever. The important parts are the DA conversion, the amps, and the transducers. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 3:22 PM, Eric S. Sandeesa...@erols.com wrote: They are what they are. No one with any serious interest in music takes them as anything more than that. Precisely. As an avid listener of good music, and and all genres are welcomed if the offerings are of high caliber, I do not have time or money to waste on devices that fail to satisfy my ears. To my way of thinking, getting antsy over teeny tiny listening devices is the equivalent of getting wrought up about 7 b/w portable TVs before analog went poof. As to HD radio over earbuds, you would never hear the difference between that and FM, if you could even capture the signal to begin with. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
Are you denigrating MP3 or iPods? Have you listened to an Apple lossless file on an iPod? See my subsequent post. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 3:42 PM, mikexha...@gmail.com wrote: Any portables out there you do like? Any suggestions for someone wanting to see if they can hear the difference? No portables, even those played via a docking system with some attached speakers, will sound anything like real music. The closest you can get with these portable units is to attach real headphones of high quality to them and dispense with those thingys that you stick in your ears, or hook 'em up to a real audio system with BIG speakers. Anecdotally, a lot of youngsters these days have never seriously listened to music on a REAL sound system. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
A lot people of any generation, the cost is prohibitive. On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 1:38 PM, phartz...@gmail.com phartz...@gmail.comwrote: On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 3:42 PM, mikexha...@gmail.com wrote: Anecdotally, a lot of youngsters these days have never seriously listened to music on a REAL sound system. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 4:15 PM, TPiwowart...@tjpa.com wrote: On Aug 16, 2009, at 3:51 PM, Eric S. Sande wrote: But I'm pretty experienced and I can tell if what I'm hearing is a pony versus a pile of pony crap. Are you denigrating MP3 or iPods? Have you listened to an Apple lossless file on an iPod? Apple's lossless compression makes iTunes an audiophile's delight I tested Apple Lossless Encoding using some of my favorite audiophile CDs, including a few from Reference Recordings, maker of some of the highest-quality CDs I've ever heard. I heard absolutely no difference in the sound of the CD vs. the sound of the iTunes compressed version using Apple Lossless Encoding. The only problem I have with this article, and I think it is a big problem, is that the author did not say what kind of sound system he used to make the comparisons. If he was only using small speakers attached to his computer, or worse yet, the built-in speakers, I am sure he would be very hard pressed to detect any differences even if they were actually there. Were he using an audiophile quality system to make his comparisons, and had so stated that, I could give his article more credence. I am sure that Apple's Lossless Encoding is far better than MP3, but the author leaves me guessing. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
I don't think it's quality that is so much the point with HD radio as much as more content. On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 1:28 PM, phartz...@gmail.com phartz...@gmail.comwrote: On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 3:22 PM, Eric S. Sandeesa...@erols.com wrote: As to HD radio over earbuds, you would never hear the difference between that and FM, if you could even capture the signal to begin with. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 4:43 PM, mikexha...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think it's quality that is so much the point with HD radio as much as more content. Perhaps so, but radio stations most certainly use the quality thing to convince listeners that they should invest in HD radio receivers. Whadda ya think HD is an abbreviation for? Certainly nothing to do with content. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
Perhaps so, but radio stations most certainly use the quality thing to convince listeners that they should invest in HD radio receivers. Whadda ya think HD is an abbreviation for? Certainly nothing to do with content. The HD in HD Radio stands for hybrid digital, not high definition. http://www.crutchfield.com/S-qIrveshfIsa/learn/learningcenter/car/hdradio_fa q.html#1 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
Well, okay, but compared to what? I guess that wasn't a good answer because it comes down to expectation. If all someone has ever heard is recorded music, it is logical to conclude that that is their standard. I am not willing to open the worm can here. But I will say that for those who have heard live acoustic music on a regular basis, the standards are different. No one would argue that a recording of Eva Cassidy sounds exactly like Eva Cassidy. The only argument is how close it comes. That we can approximate it is great. The whole equipment part is secondary to the recording and engineering parts. Which we can't control. We can't even compare Eva Cassidy to herself, because she is no longer with us. But her recorded songs sound good. They soud better on good equipment. Not saying they sound bad anywhere, but that's a fact. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
Again HUH? HD stands for Hybrid Digital in radio language it has all to do with programming. Offering different audio streams of different content on a hybrid digital channel. The HD they are talking about for the Ipod/Zune has to do with Video output which has a totally different understanding. (High Definition and has to do with Video Quality) Stewart At 04:20 PM 8/16/2009, you wrote: Perhaps so, but radio stations most certainly use the quality thing to convince listeners that they should invest in HD radio receivers. Whadda ya think HD is an abbreviation for? Certainly nothing to do with content. Steve Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
HUH? A decent lower level receiver with a decent set of speakers (I am not talking audio[phile quality) will not set you back much more than what you are spending on your ipods/accessories. Secondly they last a lot longer. Current amp/receiver set up I am using is at least 10 years old. The biggest upgrades I have made is in speakers. (I added a subwoofer) It is Dolby, but not digital. (Although I think it has a digital input have not looked in a long time.) Stewart At 03:44 PM 8/16/2009, you wrote: A lot people of any generation, the cost is prohibitive. On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 1:38 PM, phartz...@gmail.com phartz...@gmail.comwrote: On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 3:42 PM, mikexha...@gmail.com wrote: Anecdotally, a lot of youngsters these days have never seriously listened to music on a REAL sound system. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 5:47 PM, Jeff Wrightjswri...@gmail.com wrote: The HD in HD Radio stands for hybrid digital, not high definition. True. Still, stations tout the audio quality when talking up HD radio even though an awful lot of their HD programming is talk stuff where great sound is not an extraordinary prerequisite. My bet is that HD radio is not going to catch on to any great degree and will fade as did stereo AM endeavors. Indeed, if commercial radio does not innovate more and stop the enormous homogenization that is taking place, the whole industry could find itself in trouble. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
Actually I think the biggest purveyors of HD radio are Public Radio Stations. Stewart At 08:49 PM 8/16/2009, you wrote: On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 5:47 PM, Jeff Wrightjswri...@gmail.com wrote: The HD in HD Radio stands for hybrid digital, not high definition. True. Still, stations tout the audio quality when talking up HD radio even though an awful lot of their HD programming is talk stuff where great sound is not an extraordinary prerequisite. My bet is that HD radio is not going to catch on to any great degree and will fade as did stereo AM endeavors. Indeed, if commercial radio does not innovate more and stop the enormous homogenization that is taking place, the whole industry could find itself in trouble. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Zune HD TV Interface Makes It a Media Center For Your Pocket
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 9:57 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall popoz...@earthlink.net wrote: Actually I think the biggest purveyors of HD radio are Public Radio Stations. The two major markets I know the best seem to list most of the stations as having an HD Radio transmitter according to http://www.hdradio.com/. I've been waiting for a portable HD Radio solution that would be affordable. -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
