Re: [CGUYS] A Multigenerational Look at the iPad
The possible windows pad is an advertising feint. Just like M$ announced the Surface when Apple's iPhone Buzz sucked all the oxygen out of the market before it's release the pad is a peice of advertising vaporware intended to keep the M$ name in circulation. To be fair there are a few surface' platforms out there but not many. Has anyone ever seen one in use? On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 8:05 PM, mike xha...@gmail.com wrote: So what is fictitious that you are talking about? On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 4:51 PM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Mar 8, 2010, at 4:18 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Sort of like the Ipad right now. No, the iPad exists. You can drive nails with it. It is not yet available for retail sale, but that is not the same as being fictitious. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Twist in school spying scandal
From the little I know of the case and a bit of common sense, I find this case pretty cut and dried. If the computer was stolen, the school had the right to track it. If it wasn't and the school only wanted $55 for insurance not paid, they had every right to track it if they knew who had it and who hadn't paid. But they had no right to invade that persons privacy. We have laws against that even for credit card companies calling a person at work and in other bothersome ways. We're in no brainer territory here. If someone steals my computer (and I can figure out how to do this) I'd invade their privacy to find it. But I'm not going to give one to the neighbor and then use the ability to see if he's shagging my wife (if I had one). Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Mar 6, 2010, at 6:50 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 8:05 PM, Tony B ton...@gmail.com wrote: What victim? What crime? Some of you are getting ahead of yourselves. There are no victims, and nobody has been charged with a crime. By your own admissions, the worst that happened here is that somebody in the school district failed to make it more clear that monitoring would be taking place. Fine, but that's no crime. The school system has already admitted that they failed to notify anyone outside of the school system, other than local police, that they were employing any sort of monitoring by way of webcams. They didn't even tell the students who were using the computers. That goes well beyond your suggestion that the worst that happened was that the school district failed to make the monitoring more clear. They essentially didn't tell anybody anything. What we have here is the use of technology in a aberrant, possibly abusive and perhaps illegal fashion. Parents who have failed to pony up a $55.00 insurance fee on a piece of equipment that has been foisted upon their child for school work should not be subjected to surveillance of their dwelling as a result. That kid had been taking the computer back and forth to and from school daily, and just because that fee had not been paid and the student was therefore not supposed to be taking the computer off school property, that was no reason to delve into knee-jerk surreptitious spying. Call the parents and ask, Does Blake have his computer? He does? Well, that's good. Listen, I just need to remind you that his insurance fee for that computer is past due, and it would be best were that to be paid as soon as possible, okay? Thank you. Goodbye. However, and as it is said, if the technology is available, IT WILL BE USED. If not, how else does one justify its cost and existence? See what happens when technology takes the place of human contact? How do you like those robotic phone calls? Automated telephone response systems with their endless menus and then you get cut off anyway? For what it is worth, the school system has put the two tech workers involved on paid leave. For what? For simply doing their job and following orders? The school system claims to have ceased all webcam surveillance after orders to do so as issued by a Federal judge. Apparently the judge thinks something illegal may have been taking place. The company that makes the tracking software has removed the camera activation feature from all future releases of its product. Looks like a fair amount of activity fueled by retrospect is taking place on various fronts. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Twist in school spying scandal
This is beginning to sound like a school IT department with way to much time on it's hands. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Mar 6, 2010, at 7:19 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 9:58 PM, mike xha...@gmail.com wrote: One article stated the two on paid leave had a 'private' website where they were storing pics taken from webcams. Yes, allegedly accessible by the local police department. I would wonder why the use of a website to provide photos to the police for the purpose of tracking down lost and stolen computers? First of all, police departments do not hunt for lost items. They are not a lost and found agency. They hunt for stolen property because it is assumed that a crime has taken place. Almost all of the incidents wherein cameras were activated were for misplaced computers, not ones that had been reported as being stolen. There were only 42 incidents of reported activation of laptop cameras, with only a handful of those related to computers reported as having been stolen. A website for that? Why not just e-mail the photos on a per-case basis of reported thefts? This is truly technology run amok. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] A Multigenerational Look at the iPad
On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 7:47 AM, John Duncan Yoyo johnduncany...@gmail.com wrote: To be fair there are a few surface' platforms out there but not many. Has anyone ever seen one in use? Yeah, on TV shows and in movies, thanks to CGI and animation. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] Apple Developer Agreement
All Your Apps Belong to Apple: The iPhone Developer Program License Agreement So today we're posting the iPhone Developer Program License Agreement—the contract that every developer who writes software for the iTunes App Store must sign. Though more than 100,000 app developers have clicked I agree, public copies of the agreement are scarce, perhaps thanks to the prohibition on making any public statements regarding this Agreement, its terms and conditions, or the relationship of the parties without Apple's express prior written approval. http://tinyurl.com/yhwpdbx * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] A Multigenerational Look at the iPad
I didn't even know MS was working on a pad like device...I know HP has the slate which is a finished product and due soon. There are a lot of devices coming out that are pad like devices, some more expensive than others. I seriously doubt when MS saw the iphone they said to themselves 'holy cow we need to make a multitouch device the size of a small car to fight them!' No one said the ipad was imaginary, making up stuff never helps your case..and have you seen the ipad? It is a big ipod touch. Aside from size, what is the difference? On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 7:35 AM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Mar 9, 2010, at 7:47 AM, John Duncan Yoyo wrote: The possible windows pad is an advertising feint. Just like M$ announced the Surface when Apple's iPhone Buzz sucked all the oxygen out of the market before it's release the pad is a peice of advertising vaporware intended to keep the M$ name in circulation. Exactly. We are a few weeks away from being able to walk into an Apple Store to buy an iPad. M$ is still doodling and has not even settled on the processor necessary to run it. That's a big difference. Apple also has a track record of big successes with this type of product. M$ has a record of failure and vaporware. It is interesting how the WFBs will say in the same breath that the iPad is nothing more than a big iTouch and then claim that it is an imaginary product. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] A Multigenerational Look at the iPad
On Mar 9, 2010, at 7:47 AM, John Duncan Yoyo wrote: The possible windows pad is an advertising feint. Just like M$ announced the Surface when Apple's iPhone Buzz sucked all the oxygen out of the market before it's release the pad is a peice of advertising vaporware intended to keep the M$ name in circulation. Exactly. We are a few weeks away from being able to walk into an Apple Store to buy an iPad. M$ is still doodling and has not even settled on the processor necessary to run it. That's a big difference. Apple also has a track record of big successes with this type of product. M$ has a record of failure and vaporware. It is interesting how the WFBs will say in the same breath that the iPad is nothing more than a big iTouch and then claim that it is an imaginary product. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Twist in school spying scandal
On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 6:21 AM, Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net wrote: This is beginning to sound like a school IT department with way to much time on it's hands. Conversely, there is this current situation in Montgomery County, MD at Churchill High School where a student or students installed keylogging software on computers used by teachers. They did that in order to obtain passwords to school system computers that they then accessed to enhance the grades of about 60 classmates, perhaps for money. What do we have here? Students interested in computer technology for the purposes of using that knowledge for criminal activity? Or, was this all just a prank, and the kids were going to 'fess up when their report cards came out? I seriously doubt that would have happened. Various students who have been interviewed said that they all feel so much pressure from both parents as well as school officials to excel to extreme degrees that it is not surprising that some students would resort to such behavior. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Twist in school spying scandal
Not only that had not been informed of better more reliable ways to track lost/stolen laptops. Lojack for computers. Stewart At 05:21 AM 3/9/2010, you wrote: This is beginning to sound like a school IT department with way to much time on it's hands. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Twist in school spying scandal
Various students who have been interviewed said that they all feel so much pressure from both parents as well as school officials to excel to extreme degrees that it is not surprising that some students would resort to such behavior. Perhaps, but it doesn't explain why they allegedly lowered the grades of some students they didn't like. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Twist in school spying scandal
Depends on what standard of ethics you rely on here. Stewart At 06:28 AM 3/9/2010, you wrote: Various students who have been interviewed said that they all feel so much pressure from both parents as well as school officials to excel to extreme degrees that it is not surprising that some students would resort to such behavior. Steve Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] A Multigenerational Look at the iPad
Yes the local DMV uses touch screens for their Drivers tests, and one of the Big Orthopedic clinics uses windows touch screen laptops for their staff, medical records. Stewart At 06:47 AM 3/9/2010, you wrote: The possible windows pad is an advertising feint. Just like M$ announced the Surface when Apple's iPhone Buzz sucked all the oxygen out of the market before it's release the pad is a peice of advertising vaporware intended to keep the M$ name in circulation. To be fair there are a few surface' platforms out there but not many. Has anyone ever seen one in use? On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 8:05 PM, mike xha...@gmail.com wrote: So what is fictitious that you are talking about? On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 4:51 PM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Mar 8, 2010, at 4:18 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Sort of like the Ipad right now. No, the iPad exists. You can drive nails with it. It is not yet available for retail sale, but that is not the same as being fictitious. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] A Multigenerational Look at the iPad
MS has released a required set of hardware requirements for their phones and manufacturers are developing said phones at present. Lets be real Tom they may be slow but they are working on it. Not everyone may be a clueless as you are to reality. Stewart At 08:35 AM 3/9/2010, you wrote: Exactly. We are a few weeks away from being able to walk into an Apple Store to buy an iPad. M$ is still doodling and has not even settled on the processor necessary to run it. That's a big difference. Apple also has a track record of big successes with this type of product. M$ has a record of failure and vaporware. It is interesting how the WFBs will say in the same breath that the iPad is nothing more than a big iTouch and then claim that it is an imaginary product. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] A Multigenerational Look at the iPad
He is up tight because I said it is not reality yet until it hits the shelves. I say that about anything until it hits retail shelves. The Windows Mobile 7 phone is not reality until it hits store shelves. In my opinion the phone I most want to look at the Motorola Devour is not reality until it hits store shelves. (All I can find is a stupid dummy phone to look at.) Stewart At 09:31 AM 3/9/2010, you wrote: I didn't even know MS was working on a pad like device...I know HP has the slate which is a finished product and due soon. There are a lot of devices coming out that are pad like devices, some more expensive than others. I seriously doubt when MS saw the iphone they said to themselves 'holy cow we need to make a multitouch device the size of a small car to fight them!' No one said the ipad was imaginary, making up stuff never helps your case..and have you seen the ipad? It is a big ipod touch. Aside from size, what is the difference? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] A Multigenerational Look at the iPad
Yes the local DMV uses touch screens for their Drivers tests, and one of the Big Orthopedic clinics uses windows touch screen laptops for their staff, medical records. Stewart Rev, I think the question was about surface platforms, which are different from simple touchscreens. They're typically big, expensive tables with touch-sensitive screens that cover most of the surface. At some point they'll be sensitive to more stuff, e.g., you'll be able to just put your camera anywhere on the surface, and the system will recognize what it is be able to do useful things like downloading the pix. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] A Multigenerational Look at the iPad
On Mar 9, 2010, at 10:31 AM, mike wrote: I didn't even know MS was working on a pad like device... Actually two. One based on WINCE 6.5 and one on Zune. The two teams are reportedly spending a good bit of their resources on backstabbing one another. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] A Multigenerational Look at the iPad
There are some out there but I do not know of any. Frankly just look like a big toy to me. Stewart Rev, I think the question was about surface platforms, which are different from simple touchscreens. They're typically big, expensive tables with touch-sensitive screens that cover most of the surface. At some point they'll be sensitive to more stuff, e.g., you'll be able to just put your camera anywhere on the surface, and the system will recognize what it is be able to do useful things like downloading the pix. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] A Multigenerational Look at the iPad
Another typical ms blunder. Stand in a circle and develop software..hope to take out your competition...another ms software group. On Mar 9, 2010 9:36 AM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Mar 9, 2010, at 10:31 AM, mike wrote: I didn't even know MS was working on a pad like device Actually two. One based on WINCE 6.5 and one on Zune. The two teams are reportedly spending a good bit of their resources on backstabbing one another. * ** List info, subscrip... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] A Multigenerational Look at the iPad
Quoting phartz...@gmail.com phartz...@gmail.com: On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 7:47 AM, John Duncan Yoyo johnduncany...@gmail.com wrote: To be fair there are a few surface' platforms out there but not many. Has anyone ever seen one in use? Yeah, on TV shows and in movies, thanks to CGI and animation. You mean, like that iPad commercial tat was posted here the other day? I mean seriously, *nobody* holds something *that* still. Especially when they're poking at it. It doesn't move. It looks like two hands (mostly one though) poking at a green screen, with pictures of people holding their iPads and animation added after the fact. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] A Multigenerational Look at the iPad
Yes, M$ seems to announce work on a new me-too project every time Apple starts releasing a new product. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- MS has released a required set of hardware requirements for their phones and manufacturers are developing said phones at present. Lets be real Tom they may be slow but they are working on it. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Twist in school spying scandal
mike wrote: You seem to not understand that after finding who had the 'stolen' laptop they spent zero time in telling the parents the boy had taken it without permission. It never came up. They just called the kid in and tried to accuse him of doing drugs. Then they had to backtrack and explain why they were even watching kids over the cam. I do understand what apparently happened. The fact there was poor quality vice squad activity with the pictures still doesn't make the original activity awful. I also note once again that right now the only sources for the innocent candy usage are the student, the family of the student and lawyers for the family of the student. There wasn't police involvement. I hate to put it this way but if the student had been taking drugs, we would expect school officials to intervene in the same circumstances. I am probably more concerned with privacy than many, that still doesn't put me into a camp that makes this as awful as some on here make it. A lot of IT departments put similar software or try to add said software to company issued laptops and employees seem willing to sign forms allowing the company to take reasonable means to recover said laptops. Remember a lot of missing laptops that later get recovered just get used by folks around the employee without telling the employee. It's a good argument for encrypting drives with real encryption too. I also note that according to the Philadelphia Inquirer today, there is a former AUSA in charge of investigating what the district and its employees did with the activated computers and how many pictures got taken. http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/20100309_District_hires_firm_to_probe_computer_camera_use.html * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] A Multigenerational Look at the iPad
On Mar 9, 2010, at 12:10 PM, Reid Katan wrote: You mean, like that iPad commercial tat was posted here the other day? I mean seriously, *nobody* holds something *that* still. Especially when they're poking at it. It doesn't move. It looks like two hands (mostly one though) poking at a green screen, with pictures of people holding their iPads and animation added after the fact. See. As I wrote: true believers believe the iPad doesn't exist. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Twist in school spying scandal
mike wrote: No, that's not right, the administrator said explicit the software was used narrowly only to recover stolen/missing property. His words. Wait a moment, a laptop is supposed to be in school, it's not there and nobody has permission to remove said laptop from school. What is the status of the laptop except missing? Does that not meet both the legal and commonsense definitions of missing? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Twist in school spying scandal
Trouble is from what was said they knew who had it. On Mar 9, 2010 10:58 AM, Art Clemons artclem...@aol.com wrote: mike wrote: No, that's not right, the administrator said explicit the software was used narrow... Wait a moment, a laptop is supposed to be in school, it's not there and nobody has permission to remove said laptop from school. What is the status of the laptop except missing? Does that not meet both the legal and commonsense definitions of missing? * ** List info, subscrip... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] A Multigenerational Look at the iPad COMMERCIALS
Quoting tjpa t...@tjpa.com: See. As I wrote: true believers believe the iPad doesn't exist. Troll, er, Tom, try to follow along. . . On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 7:47 AM, John Duncan Yoyo To be fair there are a few surface' platforms out there but not many. Has anyone ever seen one in use? Quoting phartz...@gmail.com phartz...@gmail.com: Yeah, on TV shows and in movies, thanks to CGI and animation. On Mar 9, 2010, at 12:10 PM, Reid Katan wrote: You mean, like that iPad commercial tat was posted here the other day? No mention of a non-existent iPad. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] A Multigenerational Look at the iPad
It exists, but not in reality yet. The Ipads in the commercials are prototype editions, not consumer versions. They have to be prototype as the commercials had to be in the bag a month ago. Let us see the consumer product and then we can comment. Stewart At 11:53 AM 3/9/2010, you wrote: On Mar 9, 2010, at 12:10 PM, Reid Katan wrote: You mean, like that iPad commercial tat was posted here the other day? I mean seriously, *nobody* holds something *that* still. Especially when they're poking at it. It doesn't move. It looks like two hands (mostly one though) poking at a green screen, with pictures of people holding their iPads and animation added after the fact. See. As I wrote: true believers believe the iPad doesn't exist. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Twist in school spying scandal
On 03/09/2010 01:03 PM, mike wrote: Trouble is from what was said they knew who had it. Nope, they knew after they had pictures from the webcam, not before. Suspecting someone has something and having proof that same individual has it are two different things and usually two different sets of circumstances too. It should be noted that the parents filed this suit after they too had been informed of the possible drug usage and the record of the possible drug usage wasn't removed from the student's record. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] A Multigenerational Look at the iPad
On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 10:54 AM, Rev. Stewart Marshall popoz...@earthlink.net wrote: Yes the local DMV uses touch screens for their Drivers tests, and one of the Big Orthopedic clinics uses windows touch screen laptops for their staff, medical records. But that sure isn't the surface. I know a Grad student that uses a M$ based tablet but it isn't a NEW iPad competing M$ TABLET (TM). Tablet support was in VISTA. -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] A Multigenerational Look at the iPad
Stewart Marshall He is up tight because I said it is not reality yet until it hits the shelves. I thought the MS slate/pad/tablet thingie was called the Courier, last I heard it was very much in the prototype stage. I don't know if they're going to run Windows Mobile 7 or Windows 7 on it. I say that about anything until it hits retail shelves. The Windows Mobile 7 phone is not reality until it hits store shelves. In my opinion the phone I most want to look at the Motorola Devour is not reality until it hits store shelves. (All I can find is a stupid dummy phone to look at.) Yup -- Take care | This clown speaks for himself, his job doesn't Wayne D. | supply this, at least not directly My reality check just bounced * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
