Re: [CGUYS] The Other Digital: Radio

[Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS)]

Constance, I looked at this when I needed to replace my stereo receiver
last summer because I depend on radio (no TV) for news, etc.  I live in
the boonies (western Loudoun) and gave up when I realized the coverage
is not good and I am likely in a dead area for digital radio signals.

Thank you, 
Mark Snyder 
-Original Message-
With all this discussion of digital communication frameworks, real  
and potential, there's one medium that hasn't yet been mentioned:  
digital radio.

I'd like to know what experience, if any, list members have had with  
digital radio.  I've heard that digital radios have come down in  
price to something halfway reasonable--possibly as low as $50.  The  
advantage: once you have the set, the signals are free; no  
subscription charges.  Just turn the set on, like those other old- 
fashioned over-the-air broadcast media.  The disadvantage: digital  
radio broadcasting isn't nearly as common as FM or AM stations.  (It  
would be no fun to take your shiny new digital radio out of the box,  
turn it on, and get---static.)

So does anybody out there have a digital radio--or do your friends  
have them--and if so, what's your/their experience?

I'm especially interested in the presence (or absence) of digital  
radio broadcasting in the National Capitol Area.


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Re: [CGUYS] The Other Digital: Radio

[Art Clemons]

Read the sentence again: the audio is still analog, but there is a digital data 
stream along with it that is used for station ID/playlist/etc. information. 
This is different from digital TV, where the entire signal is digital.


That's why it's an in band system, the portion of the signal that an HD 
receiver responds to is digital.  There is a digital signal, it's not an 
analog emulation.  That there is also an analog signal is irrelevant. 
If the digital data stream is detected, it's decoded, what more do you 
want to call something digital?



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Re: [CGUYS] The Other Digital: Radio

[Fred Holmes]

My interpretation of the sentence is that digital radio is truly digital, and 
that "in conjunction with their analog signals" means "in conjunction with 
their legacy AM/FM signals."  The sentence isn't clear, clearly.  They are 
likely using a single transmitter for all of the signals, with all signals 
being in a narrow band around their legacy signal.  But I haven't seen a real 
engineer's description of the signal content anywhere.  I can (or once could) 
give you the full math for AM and FM signals -- learned about it in college 
engineering in the '50s.  I have no idea how actual digital signals work, other 
that a general understanding of digital sampling.  One could take the digital 
audio from an MP3 (or other digital audio format) and transmit it digitally, 
with the digital to analog conversion occurring in the receiver.  I think 
that's likely what they are doing.

The following from the later portion of the earlier-cited Wikipedia article:

  "If digital signal reception is lost, the HD Radio receiver will revert to 
the analog signal, thereby providing seamless operation between the newer and 
older transmission methods-ONLY for the primary HD(-1) signal (The extra HD-2 
and HD-3 streams are not simulcast on analog, thus are totally lost when 
digital reception is gone). Alternatively the HD Radio signal can revert to a 
more-robust ~20 kilobit per second stream, provided the broadcaster has that 
setup as well. Datacasting is also possible, with metadata providing song 
titles or artist information."

would seem to indicate that the primary (HD-1) channel's audio is broadcast 
digitally as a copy of the legacy (POFM) channel, and the HD-2 and HD-3 
channels are broadcast with different audio content only in digital mode.

  "iBiquity Digital claims that the system approaches CD quality sound and 
offers reduction of both interference and static;[9] however, some listeners 
have complained of increased interference on the AM band (see AM, below)."

Fred Holmes

At 06:55 AM 2/7/2010, Mike Sloane wrote:
>Read the sentence again: the audio is still analog, but there is a digital 
>data stream along with it that is used for station ID/playlist/etc. 
>information. This is different from digital TV, where the entire signal is 
>digital.
>
>Mike
>
>Art Clemons wrote:
>>>I think you are under a misunderstanding. HD radio is NOT "digital". It is a 
>>>proprietary format analog signal with a digital adjunct. See: 
>>>
>>Both IBOC signals are truly digital although on AM, it's a Hybrid Digital 
>>system.  Please note that your quoted source to rebut the claim that HD is 
>>digital states:
>>"HD Radio is the trademark for iBiquity's in-band on-channel (IBOC) digital 
>>radio technology used by AM and FM radio stations to transmit audio and data 
>>via a digital signal in conjunction with their analog signals.'


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Re: [CGUYS] The Other Digital: Radio

[Mike Sloane]

Read the sentence again: the audio is still analog, but there is a 
digital data stream along with it that is used for station 
ID/playlist/etc. information. This is different from digital TV, where 
the entire signal is digital.


Mike

Art Clemons wrote:
I think you are under a misunderstanding. HD radio is NOT "digital". 
It is a proprietary format analog signal with a digital adjunct. See: 



Both IBOC signals are truly digital although on AM, it's a Hybrid 
Digital system.  Please note that your quoted source to rebut the claim 
that HD is digital states:


"HD Radio is the trademark for iBiquity's in-band on-channel (IBOC) 
digital radio technology used by AM and FM radio stations to transmit 
audio and data via a digital signal in conjunction with their analog 
signals.'



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Re: [CGUYS] The Other Digital: Radio

[MrMike6by9]

I have the Logitech Squeezebox Boom while a friend of mine has the
Pandora Radio by Livio. These sets are quite appropriate for news and
talk programs from the likes of NPR, PRI, and BBC. Their audio
fidelity is quite acceptable for tabletop radio. Just about any
broadcast radio station you'd fancy has an internet presence. I often
listen to west coast NPR feeds, for example, since they don't delete
as much (if you time it right) for local content/stories. My radio can
access my Napster playlists as well as Pandora and Last.FM. My
friend's radio is especially configured for the ease of use for the
"thumbs up and "thumbs down" for Pandora playlists. I can go to sleep
just about any night of the week listening to "Echoes", for example. I
have an XM sub and there is supposedly a way to stream their content
on the Squeezebox but I haven't played with it yet since I've only had
the Box since Xmas.

YMMV

> Subject: Re: The Other Digital: Radio
>
> Constance,
>
> We have something that we enjoy a great deal: a wifi internet radio.  It
> looks like a regular tabletop radio, but plays anything that streams from
> the internet, about 17,000 stations worldwide.  In addition, it also plays
> all our Sirius stations, Pandora music and podcasts.
>
> We have two of them, both Grace brand, less than $150.
>


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Re: [CGUYS] The Other Digital: Radio

[Art Clemons]

I think you are under a misunderstanding. HD radio is NOT "digital". It is a 
proprietary format analog signal with a digital adjunct. See: 



Both IBOC signals are truly digital although on AM, it's a Hybrid 
Digital system.  Please note that your quoted source to rebut the claim 
that HD is digital states:


"HD Radio is the trademark for iBiquity's in-band on-channel (IBOC) 
digital radio technology used by AM and FM radio stations to transmit 
audio and data via a digital signal in conjunction with their analog 
signals.'



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Re: [CGUYS] The Other Digital: Radio

[Art Clemons]

WHAT I DON'T KNOW  is whether the signal is actually usable in large parts of 
the National Capitol area, which is why I asked this question.  I sort of 
figured that the signal wasn't very good, or I would have heard of it; but it 
would be nice if it did work.


Finding a working portable HD radio is tricky.  In car radios, one of 
the repeating refrains is that the HD part drops out all too frequently, 
which isn't a problem if you're listening to the HD1 signal (most radios 
drop back to the analog signal which is also NORMALLY the HD1 signal) 
but is if you happen to be listening to HD2 or HD3.


The portable versions like the Insignia or the Zune with HD both also 
suffer from dropouts as you move about, just as you would in a car.


For home listening, my favorite is the Sony XDR-F1HD Tuner with HD but 
note that it's just an FM/AM HD tuner, you need to connect the tuner to 
an audio amplifier or receiver with audio inputs.


For use in an office, or use in a bedroom  I'ld suggest the Radiosophy 
HD100 which is a radio with speakers included.


The Sony Tuner and Radiosophy radio both would adequately serve in 
Washington in a fixed location (for that matter so would the Zune and 
Insignia portables).  The signal levels should be more than high enough, 
looking at one of the sites that gives AM and FM signal strengths.

http://www.v-soft.com/ZipSignal/default.htm

Please note I'm not in DC, but I used the Capitol zip code and then 
extrapolated what the predicted FM HD signal should be.


Please note that if you want AM HD while moving around, you'll really 
suffer, because the Hybrid Digital format from Ibiquity doesn't cope 
with movement well at all.

If the technology is not truly digital, I wouldn't know why the broadcasters 
call it digital; but, as  you see from the example above, they do.


It is digital or hybrid digital, of course the US might have been better 
off adopting the European system instead.  Because it's an in band 
system on both FM and AM, compromises had to be made to allow standard 
radios to still work.



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Re: [CGUYS] The Other Digital: Radio

[Allen Johnson]

Heard all three in NE Washington at Christmas. (Near Kennedy Stadium).




> The following is what I mean by digital
radio, also called HD radio,
> from the WAMU website:
>

> "WAMU 88.5 provides digital channels as options for our
listeners.
> 
> "WAMU's Bluegrass Country is
available in HD at 88.5-2 - it's a full-
> stereo, comprehensive,
"real" radio station! You'll hear all your
> bluegrass
favorites and live-hosted programs featuring Katy Daley,
> Ray
Davis, and Lee Michael Demsey. This station continues to be heard
> online at bluegrasscountry.org, which has served the full-time
> bluegrass listener since 2001. WAMU's Bluegrass Country is among
the
> first in the nation to offer live programming exclusively
for HD Radio.
> 
> "Our third channel, WAMU-3, in HD
at 88.5-3, serves the dedicated
> public radio news listener with
programming not available on the
> flagship channel, including
extended BBC news coverage and NPR's Talk
> of the Nation. Our
groundbreaking partnership with AAA-public station
> WTMD
continues on WAMU-3, where we air WTMD's funky, eclectic blend
>
of rock, country rock, blues, folk, and world music, weekdays from
> midnight to 5 a.m., and weekends from 7 p.m.-5 a.m."
>

> WHAT I DON'T KNOW  is whether the signal is actually usable in
large
> parts of the National Capitol area, which is why I asked
this
> question.  I sort of figured that the signal wasn't very
good, or I
> would have heard of it; but it would be nice if it
did work.
> 
> If the technology is not truly digital, I
wouldn't know why the
> broadcasters call it digital; but, as  you
see from the example
> above, they do.
> 
> On Feb
6, 2010, at 1:12 PM, Mike Sloane wrote:
> 
> 
>> I think you are under a misunderstanding. HD radio is NOT
>> "digital". It is a proprietary format analog signal
with a digital
>> adjunct. See:

>>
>>
The only "digital radios" are either satellite (Sirius/XM)
which
>> requires a paid subscription, special receiver, and an
external
>> antenna or "internet radios" that access
radio stations' audio
>> streams by connecting to the internet.
In these two cases, the
>> quality of the sound is generally
mediocre compared to high quality
>> analog sources like CD,
tape, LP, etc.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> Constance Warner wrote:
>>> With all this
discussion of digital communication frameworks, real
>>> and
potential, there's one medium that hasn't yet been mentioned:
>>> digital radio.
>>> I'd like to know what
experience, if any, list members have had
>>> with digital
radio.  I've heard that digital radios have come down
>>> in
price to something halfway reasonable--possibly as low as $50.
>>> The advantage: once you have the set, the signals are free;
no
>>> subscription charges.  Just turn the set on, like
those other old-
>>> fashioned over-the-air broadcast media.
 The disadvantage: digital
>>> radio broadcasting isn't
nearly as common as FM or AM stations.
>>> (It would be no
fun to take your shiny new digital radio out of
>>> the box,
turn it on, and get---static.)
>>> So does anybody out there
have a digital radio--or do your friends
>>> have them--and
if so, what's your/their experience?
>>> I'm especially
interested in the presence (or absence) of digital
>>> radio
broadcasting in the National Capitol Area.
>>> --Constance
Warner
>>>
*
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management, list rules, archives,
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>>> 
>>
>>
>>
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-- 
"Whenever God closes one door He
always opens another, even though sometimes it's hell in the
hallway."


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Re: [CGUYS] The Other Digital: Radio

[Constance Warner]

The following is what I mean by digital radio, also called HD radio,  
from the WAMU website:


"WAMU 88.5 provides digital channels as options for our listeners.

"WAMU's Bluegrass Country is available in HD at 88.5-2 - it's a full- 
stereo, comprehensive, "real" radio station! You'll hear all your  
bluegrass favorites and live-hosted programs featuring Katy Daley,  
Ray Davis, and Lee Michael Demsey. This station continues to be heard  
online at bluegrasscountry.org, which has served the full-time  
bluegrass listener since 2001. WAMU's Bluegrass Country is among the  
first in the nation to offer live programming exclusively for HD Radio.


"Our third channel, WAMU-3, in HD at 88.5-3, serves the dedicated  
public radio news listener with programming not available on the  
flagship channel, including extended BBC news coverage and NPR's Talk  
of the Nation. Our groundbreaking partnership with AAA-public station  
WTMD continues on WAMU-3, where we air WTMD's funky, eclectic blend  
of rock, country rock, blues, folk, and world music, weekdays from  
midnight to 5 a.m., and weekends from 7 p.m.-5 a.m."


WHAT I DON'T KNOW  is whether the signal is actually usable in large  
parts of the National Capitol area, which is why I asked this  
question.  I sort of figured that the signal wasn't very good, or I  
would have heard of it; but it would be nice if it did work.


If the technology is not truly digital, I wouldn't know why the  
broadcasters call it digital; but, as  you see from the example  
above, they do.


On Feb 6, 2010, at 1:12 PM, Mike Sloane wrote:


I think you are under a misunderstanding. HD radio is NOT  
"digital". It is a proprietary format analog signal with a digital  
adjunct. See: 


The only "digital radios" are either satellite (Sirius/XM) which  
requires a paid subscription, special receiver, and an external  
antenna or "internet radios" that access radio stations' audio  
streams by connecting to the internet. In these two cases, the  
quality of the sound is generally mediocre compared to high quality  
analog sources like CD, tape, LP, etc.


Mike

Constance Warner wrote:
With all this discussion of digital communication frameworks, real  
and potential, there's one medium that hasn't yet been mentioned:  
digital radio.
I'd like to know what experience, if any, list members have had  
with digital radio.  I've heard that digital radios have come down  
in price to something halfway reasonable--possibly as low as $50.   
The advantage: once you have the set, the signals are free; no  
subscription charges.  Just turn the set on, like those other old- 
fashioned over-the-air broadcast media.  The disadvantage: digital  
radio broadcasting isn't nearly as common as FM or AM stations.   
(It would be no fun to take your shiny new digital radio out of  
the box, turn it on, and get---static.)
So does anybody out there have a digital radio--or do your friends  
have them--and if so, what's your/their experience?
I'm especially interested in the presence (or absence) of digital  
radio broadcasting in the National Capitol Area.

--Constance Warner
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Re: [CGUYS] The Other Digital: Radio

[Ellen Rains Harris]

Constance,

We have something that we enjoy a great deal: a wifi internet radio.  It 
looks like a regular tabletop radio, but plays anything that streams from 
the internet, about 17,000 stations worldwide.  In addition, it also plays 
all our Sirius stations, Pandora music and podcasts.


We have two of them, both Grace brand, less than $150.

Ellen

- Original Message - 
From: "t.piwowar" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] The Other Digital: Radio



On Feb 6, 2010, at 12:28 PM, Constance Warner wrote:
So does anybody out there have a digital radio--or do your friends  have 
them--and if so, what's your/their experience?


From time to time I encounter somebody with a digital radio and they 
consistently tell me they gave up on it. In contrast those who have 
satellite radio love it. I've run into people who got both and they  use 
satellite a lot and digital hardly at all.


You talk about dead spots for cell phones. From what I've been told  from 
folks who tried to use digital in their cars, the dead spots make  it 
unlistenable.



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Re: [CGUYS] The Other Digital: Radio

[Mike Sloane]

I think you are under a misunderstanding. HD radio is NOT "digital". It 
is a proprietary format analog signal with a digital adjunct. See: 



The only "digital radios" are either satellite (Sirius/XM) which 
requires a paid subscription, special receiver, and an external antenna 
or "internet radios" that access radio stations' audio streams by 
connecting to the internet. In these two cases, the quality of the sound 
is generally mediocre compared to high quality analog sources like CD, 
tape, LP, etc.


Mike

Constance Warner wrote:
With all this discussion of digital communication frameworks, real and 
potential, there's one medium that hasn't yet been mentioned: digital 
radio.


I'd like to know what experience, if any, list members have had with 
digital radio.  I've heard that digital radios have come down in price 
to something halfway reasonable--possibly as low as $50.  The advantage: 
once you have the set, the signals are free; no subscription charges.  
Just turn the set on, like those other old-fashioned over-the-air 
broadcast media.  The disadvantage: digital radio broadcasting isn't 
nearly as common as FM or AM stations.  (It would be no fun to take your 
shiny new digital radio out of the box, turn it on, and get---static.)


So does anybody out there have a digital radio--or do your friends have 
them--and if so, what's your/their experience?


I'm especially interested in the presence (or absence) of digital radio 
broadcasting in the National Capitol Area.


--Constance Warner


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Re: [CGUYS] The Other Digital: Radio

[t.piwowar]

On Feb 6, 2010, at 12:28 PM, Constance Warner wrote:
So does anybody out there have a digital radio--or do your friends  
have them--and if so, what's your/their experience?


From time to time I encounter somebody with a digital radio and they  
consistently tell me they gave up on it. In contrast those who have  
satellite radio love it. I've run into people who got both and they  
use satellite a lot and digital hardly at all.


You talk about dead spots for cell phones. From what I've been told  
from folks who tried to use digital in their cars, the dead spots make  
it unlistenable.



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[CGUYS] The Other Digital: Radio

[Constance Warner]

With all this discussion of digital communication frameworks, real  
and potential, there's one medium that hasn't yet been mentioned:  
digital radio.


I'd like to know what experience, if any, list members have had with  
digital radio.  I've heard that digital radios have come down in  
price to something halfway reasonable--possibly as low as $50.  The  
advantage: once you have the set, the signals are free; no  
subscription charges.  Just turn the set on, like those other old- 
fashioned over-the-air broadcast media.  The disadvantage: digital  
radio broadcasting isn't nearly as common as FM or AM stations.  (It  
would be no fun to take your shiny new digital radio out of the box,  
turn it on, and get---static.)


So does anybody out there have a digital radio--or do your friends  
have them--and if so, what's your/their experience?


I'm especially interested in the presence (or absence) of digital  
radio broadcasting in the National Capitol Area.


--Constance Warner


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