Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] How do you pronounce "Ye" ??
V interesting discussion re the Irish language. Thank you! My Gaeilge is v rusty. Learned English grammar through Irish many moons ago when I was about 10 yrs old. I remember the teacher trying to teach us about slender (‘coal’ = kweel) and broad (‘leathan’ = lahan) vowels. Liz Conlon Groves, Lethbridge, AB, Canada > On May 13, 2020, at 7:02 PM, Gordon Wilkinson via CoTyroneList > wrote: > > Well Jim, > > I like that explanation. It recalls to some extent the background of the > /séimhiú /or lenition in Irish Gaeli/c - //Gaeilge/ - a very, very old > language. The 'h' is not part of the Irish alphabet, which helps to explain > in part, the difficulty in pronunciation of Irish Gaelic. > > In Irish, the /séimhiú/ is used to soften the sound of the letter and in old > Irish was represented by a 'dot' over the consonant. This can be seen in the > Book of Kells, for instance. The dot became difficult to reproduce when > printing became common so a letter, which isn't otherwise used in Irish, the > 'h', was used. The /séimhiú /is applied to consonants and is a bit like the > accents used in many languages to modify the sound of letters - usually a > vowels. > > To take an example, the 'b', which in /Gaeilge /normally sounds like the > English 'b' or 'b-yah' (depending on whether it's sandwiched between broad or > slender vowels) becomes, when lenited as in 'bh', a 'w' or 'v' sound > (depending on whether it's sandwiched between broad or slender vowels). Or > the 'f', which sounds like the English 'f' or 'f-yah' (depending on whether > it's sandwiched between broad or slender vowels), becomes silent when the > /séimhiú /is added as in 'fh'. > // > > Trying to read modern Irish, especially out loud, can be trying for the > novice. > > Thanks for the reference. > > Gordon > > BTW, can anyone on this list speak /Gaeilge/ ? Ulster Gaelic /- Gaeilge > Uladh/ - is still common in parts of Donegal. > > > // > > On 13/05/2020 7:11 pm, Jim McKane via CoTyroneList wrote: >> Well, I was very surprised at the correct answer >> >> https://blog.eogn.com/2020/05/12/how-do-you-pronounce-ye-2/ >> >> Enjoy! >> >> Jim McKane >> Kitchener, Ontario >> ___ >> CoTyroneList Mailing List >> Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com >> Change Your Preferences: >> http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com >> Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY > > -- > _ > Nereda & Gordon Wilkinson, Hyde Park, South Australia. > Web: www.ozemail.com.au/~neredon Skype id: neredon > Emails: gordon.wilkin...@ozemail.com.aunereda.wilkin...@ozemail.com.au > > ___ > CoTyroneList Mailing List > Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com > Change Your Preferences: > http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com > Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] How do you pronounce "Ye" ??
Well Jim, I like that explanation. It recalls to some extent the background of the /séimhiú /or lenition in Irish Gaeli/c - //Gaeilge/ - a very, very old language. The 'h' is not part of the Irish alphabet, which helps to explain in part, the difficulty in pronunciation of Irish Gaelic. In Irish, the /séimhiú/ is used to soften the sound of the letter and in old Irish was represented by a 'dot' over the consonant. This can be seen in the Book of Kells, for instance. The dot became difficult to reproduce when printing became common so a letter, which isn't otherwise used in Irish, the 'h', was used. The /séimhiú /is applied to consonants and is a bit like the accents used in many languages to modify the sound of letters - usually a vowels. To take an example, the 'b', which in /Gaeilge /normally sounds like the English 'b' or 'b-yah' (depending on whether it's sandwiched between broad or slender vowels) becomes, when lenited as in 'bh', a 'w' or 'v' sound (depending on whether it's sandwiched between broad or slender vowels). Or the 'f', which sounds like the English 'f' or 'f-yah' (depending on whether it's sandwiched between broad or slender vowels), becomes silent when the /séimhiú /is added as in 'fh'. // Trying to read modern Irish, especially out loud, can be trying for the novice. Thanks for the reference. Gordon BTW, can anyone on this list speak /Gaeilge/ ? Ulster Gaelic /- Gaeilge Uladh/ - is still common in parts of Donegal. // On 13/05/2020 7:11 pm, Jim McKane via CoTyroneList wrote: Well, I was very surprised at the correct answer https://blog.eogn.com/2020/05/12/how-do-you-pronounce-ye-2/ Enjoy! Jim McKane Kitchener, Ontario ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY -- _ Nereda & Gordon Wilkinson, Hyde Park, South Australia. Web: www.ozemail.com.au/~neredon Skype id: neredon Emails: gordon.wilkin...@ozemail.com.aunereda.wilkin...@ozemail.com.au ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] I'm trying to find my great grandfather Felix John Quinn
Lizanne, I assume you are looking for John W McGarvey’s place of birth in Ireland? Most RC parish records in Ireland are on-line these days, both on the nli site and on Ancestry. So if you have checked those sources and found nothing then the likely explanation is probably that he was born in a parish like where there are no records for the year he was born. There’s no easy way round that. As I suggested to Francesca, perhaps you might make a breakthrough with DNA. If you match with someone who knows more about their ancestor’s origins, you might narrow the place of birth that way. Otherwise I can’t suggest any others sources in Ireland that might provide you with any clues. Do you know John’s parents names from his marriage or death certificate? Or a Naturalisation application? Perhaps his parents’ death certificates record where in Ireland they were born? Elwyn On Wed, 13 May 2020 at 11:21, Lizanne Smith via CoTyroneList < cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote: > Elwyn, > Thank you for your advice concerning records and date of birth in 19th > century Ireland. Attached is my great grandfather's > Civil War pension affidavit of his age. My only other record is his > immigration record as a passenger in 1851 listing him as 3 years old. > Lizanne Smith > > On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 4:52 AM elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList < > cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote: > > > As additional information about the unreliability of dates of birth etc, > > here’s a couple more examples which show the situation in the 1800s: > > > > > > > > Alexander Irvine was born in 1863 in Antrim town and became a Minister > > living in the US. This extract from his book “The Chimney Corner > revisited” > > perhaps explains why people often had to guess their ages: > > > > > > > > *“My mother kept a mental record of the twelve births. None of us ever > > knew, or cared to know, when we were born. When I heard of anybody in the > > more fortunate class celebrating a birthday I considered it a foolish > > imitation of the Queen’s birthday, which rankled in our little minds with > > 25th December or 12th July. In manhood there were times when I had to > prove > > I was born somewhere, somewhen, and then it was that I discovered that I > > also had a birthday. The clerk of the parish informed me.”* > > > > > > > > I have also attached a letter which I found in parish records in PRONI > (the > > public record office) in Belfast from someone in Pettigoe, Co. Donegal in > > 1908 writing to his Minister, asking for proof of age (ie a baptismal > > certificate). All he knew was that he was between “70 and 78 years of > age.” > > He clearly had only the vaguest idea and couldn’t narrow it down to > within > > 9 years. (The likely reason for the letter was that the old age pension > was > > being introduced in 1909 for people aged 70 and over. Documentary proof > of > > age was required. Thus, probably for the first time in his life, > > establishing his age accurately became relevant to him). > > > > > > > > > > Elwyn > > > > On Fri, 8 May 2020 at 03:56, Gordon Wilkinson via CoTyroneList < > > cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote: > > > > > Re birth dates, > > > > > > In researching the family history, I have noticed, at least in the case > > > of notable ancestors, that the date of death is often known precisely > > > but birth dates are not - only years are available and even then one > > > must be circumspect. Apparently one's birth was unimportant as infant > > > survival rates were so low. Baptism gives a clue, but then may be long > > > after the birth, from a few weeks or months to maybe 20 years (in one > > > case)! > > > > > > Gordon > > > > > > On 7/05/2020 11:04 pm, elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList wrote: > > > > Francesca, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As others have explained, Munterevlin/Munterdevlin is a general area > up > > > the > > > > west side of Lough Neagh. Mainly in Counties Tyrone & Derry. You can > > see > > > > what RC parishes there are in the general area from the attached two > > > maps: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.johngrenham.com/browse/counties/rcmaps/tyronerc.php#maps/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.johngrenham.com/browse/counties/rcmaps/derryrc.php#maps/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you click on each parish you will see what records exist. A > problem > > > you > > > > face is that not all parishes have records for 1850. For example, > > Ardtrea > > > > has a gap in its baptisms from 1843 to 1854. So it’s possible that > the > > > > reason you have been unable to find your Felix is because there is no > > > > record to find. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bear in mind too that in the 1800s most Irish people didn’t celebrate > > > > birthdays and often didn’t know exactly when they were born. If > > > officialdom > > > > later asked for a date of birth it wasn’t unknown for them to just > make > > > one > > > > up. So the date you have may not be
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] How do you pronounce "Ye" ??
And my M'Elrea became Mylrea on the Isle of Man!Kathleen On Wed, 13 May 2020 03:22:10 -0700 elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList wrote There’s similar confusion over the letter Z as it appears in surnames inIreland and Scotland. Gaelic doesn’t have the letter Y and scholars,perhaps unwisely, decided to express that sound using the letter Z instead.So the surname Dalziel is correctly pronounced Dee-Yell. (But sometimes nowspelled Dalyell). Menzies is pronounced Men us or Min us. McKenzie wasoriginally pronounced McKinney. Because of this rather confusingarrangement, in many cases people have started pronouncing the names theway they are spelled. So you can have two totally different pronunciationsof the same word or two quite different spellings of the same surname.So don’t worry too much about the “correct” spelling of any surname, or whya couple of letters may have disappeared over the years. Or whether it wasMc or Mac. (It was originally neither. Early documents mostly use M’).Elwyn ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] How do you pronounce "Ye" ??
There’s similar confusion over the letter Z as it appears in surnames in Ireland and Scotland. Gaelic doesn’t have the letter Y and scholars, perhaps unwisely, decided to express that sound using the letter Z instead. So the surname Dalziel is correctly pronounced Dee-Yell. (But sometimes now spelled Dalyell). Menzies is pronounced Men us or Min us. McKenzie was originally pronounced McKinney. Because of this rather confusing arrangement, in many cases people have started pronouncing the names the way they are spelled. So you can have two totally different pronunciations of the same word or two quite different spellings of the same surname. So don’t worry too much about the “correct” spelling of any surname, or why a couple of letters may have disappeared over the years. Or whether it was Mc or Mac. (It was originally neither. Early documents mostly use M’). Elwyn On Wed, 13 May 2020 at 10:42, Jim McKane via CoTyroneList < cotyronelist@cotyroneireland.com> wrote: > Well, I was very surprised at the correct answer > > https://blog.eogn.com/2020/05/12/how-do-you-pronounce-ye-2/ > > Enjoy! > > Jim McKane > Kitchener, Ontario > ___ > CoTyroneList Mailing List > Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com > Change Your Preferences: > http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com > Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY > ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
[CoTyroneMailingList] How do you pronounce "Ye" ??
Well, I was very surprised at the correct answer https://blog.eogn.com/2020/05/12/how-do-you-pronounce-ye-2/ Enjoy! Jim McKane Kitchener, Ontario ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
