Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling the number of sheets used to print a book

[Florian Kräutli]

Dear Martin,

many thanks for your input! That's exactly the point. The sheets refer to the 
production process but modelling it all would be quite clumsy (and a bit 
presumptuous as we can't know the process precisely).

We don't have the actual physical books. We derive the sheets from the digital 
copies and information in library catalogues. We therefore infer something 
about the "intended physical features" of the book and therefore the printing 
process.

I think a Dimension associated with the F3 would indeed be appropriate.

All best,

Florian

> On 17. Apr 2020, at 15:19, Martin Doerr  wrote:
> 
> I agree. The thing should be an LRMoo F5 Item :
> 
> Scope note: This class comprises physical objects (printed books, 
> scores, CDs, DVDs, CD-ROMS, etc.) that were produced by (P186i) an industrial 
> process involving a given instance of F3 Manifestation. ...
> 
> Question: Are the sheets those actually bound, or are the bound pages part of 
> larger sheets? I assume the latter.
> 
> If we would do very analytical modelling of the processes, those sheets would 
> be the semi-finished product. Then, the final production process would use 
> the intermediate product. Sound unnecessarily clumsy.
> 
> If we in general infer the actual number of sheets from evidence in the 
> actual book, I think the Dimension is a good solution.
> 
> In LRMoo, the F3 Manifestation (former Manifestation Product Type) has been 
> generalized to the immaterial content including the intended physical 
> features.  Then, the Dimension could go directly to F3, or a new property 
> "number of print sheets" would be needed.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> martin
> 
> On 4/17/2020 2:16 PM, Franco Niccolucci wrote:
>> First thing coming to my mind, assuming for instance it is “Yourbook” of 150 
>> sheets: introduce an E54 Dimension "number of sheets” and measure it
>> 
>> E70 Thing <“Yourbook”> (or whatever way you encode the physical book)
>> P43 has dimension
>> E54 Dimension <"Number of sheets">
>> P90 has value
>>  E60 Number <150>
>> P91 has unit
>>  E58 Measurement Unit <"Sheet number">
>> 
>> A bit verbose but you can extract & process directly the number of sheets, 
>> select small books etc., calculate the printing cost etc
>> Note that P43 has domain E70 Thing so you can attach it to any subclass of 
>> Thing / physical object you wish to use for the book. E-books may require 
>> further work/different approach.
>> 
>> Obviously this refers to a specific paper edition, exactly “that" tangible 
>> object, as a paperback may have a number of pages different from a 
>> hard-cover of the same literary object.
>> 
>> Franco
>> 
>> Prof. Franco Niccolucci
>> Director, VAST-LAB
>> PIN - U. of Florence
>> Scientific Coordinator
>> ARIADNEplus - PARTHENOS
>> 
>> Editor-in-Chief
>> ACM Journal of Computing and Cultural Heritage (JOCCH)
>> 
>> Piazza Ciardi 25
>> 59100 Prato, Italy
>> 
>> 
>>> Il giorno 17 apr 2020, alle ore 12:07, Florian Kräutli 
>>>  ha scritto:
>>> 
>>> Dear all,
>>> 
>>> I have a data modelling issue that I would like to discuss with you.
>>> 
>>> We have a database of books. Currently we are in the process of 
>>> identifying, for each book, the number of sheets used to print it. The 
>>> number of sheets is a good indication for the investment required to print 
>>> a book. We want to store this information in the database.
>>> 
>>> We do already capture the number of pages in the digitised copy as well as 
>>> the physical format of the book (using P43 has dimension on an F5 Item). We 
>>> capture data related to the printing of the book via a F3 Manifestation 
>>> Product Type and a F32 Carrier Production Event.
>>> 
>>> My intuition is that the number of sheets could be modelled as an E29 
>>> Design or Procedure that P129 is about the F3 Manifestation Product Type.
>>> 
>>> But how to add the information "number of sheets" to the E29 Design?
>>> 
>>> Two thoughts:
>>> - Simply as P3 has note: "20 sheets" (I would like it to be more machine 
>>> readable)
>>> - as a P68 foresees use of E57 Material that P2 has type "sheet" (but where 
>>> to add the quantity of sheets?)
>>> 
>>> What do you think?
>>> 
>>> Best wishes,
>>> 
>>> Florian
>>> ___
>>> Crm-sig mailing list
>>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr
>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
>> 
>> ___
>> Crm-sig mailing list
>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr
>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Dr. Martin Doerr
>   Honorary Head of the
> Center for Cultural Informatics
>  Information Systems Laboratory
> Institute of Computer Science
> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
>   N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
>  Vox:+30(2810)391625
> Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr
> Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
> 
> 

Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling the number of sheets used to print a book

[Martin Doerr]

I agree. The thing should be an LRMoo F5 Item :

Scope note: This class comprises physical objects (printed 
books, scores, CDs, DVDs, CD-ROMS, etc.) that were produced by (P186i) 
an industrial process involving a given instance of F3 Manifestation. 
...


Question: Are the sheets those actually bound, or are the bound pages 
part of larger sheets? I assume the latter.


If we would do very analytical modelling of the processes, those sheets 
would be the semi-finished product. Then, the final production process 
would use the intermediate product. Sound unnecessarily clumsy.


If we in general infer the actual number of sheets from evidence in the 
actual book, I think the Dimension is a good solution.


In LRMoo, the F3 Manifestation (former Manifestation Product Type) has 
been generalized to the immaterial content including the intended 
physical features.  Then, the Dimension could go directly to F3, or a 
new property "number of print sheets" would be needed.


Cheers,

martin

On 4/17/2020 2:16 PM, Franco Niccolucci wrote:

First thing coming to my mind, assuming for instance it is “Yourbook” of 150 sheets: 
introduce an E54 Dimension "number of sheets” and measure it

E70 Thing <“Yourbook”> (or whatever way you encode the physical book)
P43 has dimension
E54 Dimension <"Number of sheets">
P90 has value
E60 Number <150>
P91 has unit
E58 Measurement Unit <"Sheet number">

A bit verbose but you can extract & process directly the number of sheets, 
select small books etc., calculate the printing cost etc
Note that P43 has domain E70 Thing so you can attach it to any subclass of 
Thing / physical object you wish to use for the book. E-books may require 
further work/different approach.

Obviously this refers to a specific paper edition, exactly “that" tangible 
object, as a paperback may have a number of pages different from a hard-cover of the 
same literary object.

Franco

Prof. Franco Niccolucci
Director, VAST-LAB
PIN - U. of Florence
Scientific Coordinator
ARIADNEplus - PARTHENOS

Editor-in-Chief
ACM Journal of Computing and Cultural Heritage (JOCCH)

Piazza Ciardi 25
59100 Prato, Italy



Il giorno 17 apr 2020, alle ore 12:07, Florian Kräutli 
 ha scritto:

Dear all,

I have a data modelling issue that I would like to discuss with you.

We have a database of books. Currently we are in the process of identifying, 
for each book, the number of sheets used to print it. The number of sheets is a 
good indication for the investment required to print a book. We want to store 
this information in the database.

We do already capture the number of pages in the digitised copy as well as the 
physical format of the book (using P43 has dimension on an F5 Item). We capture 
data related to the printing of the book via a F3 Manifestation Product Type 
and a F32 Carrier Production Event.

My intuition is that the number of sheets could be modelled as an E29 Design or 
Procedure that P129 is about the F3 Manifestation Product Type.

But how to add the information "number of sheets" to the E29 Design?

Two thoughts:
- Simply as P3 has note: "20 sheets" (I would like it to be more machine 
readable)
- as a P68 foresees use of E57 Material that P2 has type "sheet" (but where to 
add the quantity of sheets?)

What do you think?

Best wishes,

Florian
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--

 Dr. Martin Doerr
  
 Honorary Head of the

 Center for Cultural Informatics
 
 Information Systems Laboratory

 Institute of Computer Science
 Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
  
 N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,

 GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
 
 Vox:+30(2810)391625

 Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr
 Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl

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Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling the number of sheets used to print a book

[Florian Kräutli]

Dear Franco,

many thanks for your suggestion! We do currently use this construct to 
represent the format of the book (folio, quarto, etc.). Indeed it might be an 
option to use the same for sheets.

The reason I am hesitant to do so is because the number of sheets is more a 
property of the printing process than of the final book. 

Say you can print 16 pages using one print sheet and you intend to print a 
booklet of 20 pages. You would then require two sheets to print the booklet, 
ending up with 12 empty pages that will not be included in the book (apologies 
if this is all factually incorrect, I'm not a book historian, just illustrating 
the thinking behind not modelling the number of sheets as a property of the 
book).

For this reason my thinking was that it would make more sense to add this 
information somewhere in the F3/E29 area. What do you think about using CLP43 
should have dimension -> E54 Dimension on F3 Manifestation Product Type?

Best,

Florian 


> On 17. Apr 2020, at 13:16, Franco Niccolucci  
> wrote:
> 
> First thing coming to my mind, assuming for instance it is “Yourbook” of 150 
> sheets: introduce an E54 Dimension "number of sheets” and measure it
> 
> E70 Thing <“Yourbook”> (or whatever way you encode the physical book)
> P43 has dimension
> E54 Dimension <"Number of sheets">
> P90 has value
>   E60 Number <150>
> P91 has unit
>   E58 Measurement Unit <"Sheet number">
> 
> A bit verbose but you can extract & process directly the number of sheets, 
> select small books etc., calculate the printing cost etc
> Note that P43 has domain E70 Thing so you can attach it to any subclass of 
> Thing / physical object you wish to use for the book. E-books may require 
> further work/different approach.
> 
> Obviously this refers to a specific paper edition, exactly “that" tangible 
> object, as a paperback may have a number of pages different from a hard-cover 
> of the same literary object.
> 
> Franco
> 
> Prof. Franco Niccolucci
> Director, VAST-LAB
> PIN - U. of Florence
> Scientific Coordinator
> ARIADNEplus - PARTHENOS
> 
> Editor-in-Chief
> ACM Journal of Computing and Cultural Heritage (JOCCH) 
> 
> Piazza Ciardi 25
> 59100 Prato, Italy
> 
> 
>> Il giorno 17 apr 2020, alle ore 12:07, Florian Kräutli 
>>  ha scritto:
>> 
>> Dear all,
>> 
>> I have a data modelling issue that I would like to discuss with you.
>> 
>> We have a database of books. Currently we are in the process of identifying, 
>> for each book, the number of sheets used to print it. The number of sheets 
>> is a good indication for the investment required to print a book. We want to 
>> store this information in the database.
>> 
>> We do already capture the number of pages in the digitised copy as well as 
>> the physical format of the book (using P43 has dimension on an F5 Item). We 
>> capture data related to the printing of the book via a F3 Manifestation 
>> Product Type and a F32 Carrier Production Event.
>> 
>> My intuition is that the number of sheets could be modelled as an E29 Design 
>> or Procedure that P129 is about the F3 Manifestation Product Type.
>> 
>> But how to add the information "number of sheets" to the E29 Design? 
>> 
>> Two thoughts:
>> - Simply as P3 has note: "20 sheets" (I would like it to be more machine 
>> readable)
>> - as a P68 foresees use of E57 Material that P2 has type "sheet" (but where 
>> to add the quantity of sheets?)
>> 
>> What do you think?
>> 
>> Best wishes,
>> 
>> Florian
>> ___
>> Crm-sig mailing list
>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr
>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
> 


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Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling the number of sheets used to print a book

[Franco Niccolucci]

First thing coming to my mind, assuming for instance it is “Yourbook” of 150 
sheets: introduce an E54 Dimension "number of sheets” and measure it

E70 Thing <“Yourbook”> (or whatever way you encode the physical book)
P43 has dimension
E54 Dimension <"Number of sheets">
P90 has value
E60 Number <150>
P91 has unit
E58 Measurement Unit <"Sheet number">

A bit verbose but you can extract & process directly the number of sheets, 
select small books etc., calculate the printing cost etc
Note that P43 has domain E70 Thing so you can attach it to any subclass of 
Thing / physical object you wish to use for the book. E-books may require 
further work/different approach.

Obviously this refers to a specific paper edition, exactly “that" tangible 
object, as a paperback may have a number of pages different from a hard-cover 
of the same literary object.

Franco

Prof. Franco Niccolucci
Director, VAST-LAB
PIN - U. of Florence
Scientific Coordinator
ARIADNEplus - PARTHENOS

Editor-in-Chief
ACM Journal of Computing and Cultural Heritage (JOCCH) 

Piazza Ciardi 25
59100 Prato, Italy


> Il giorno 17 apr 2020, alle ore 12:07, Florian Kräutli 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> I have a data modelling issue that I would like to discuss with you.
> 
> We have a database of books. Currently we are in the process of identifying, 
> for each book, the number of sheets used to print it. The number of sheets is 
> a good indication for the investment required to print a book. We want to 
> store this information in the database.
> 
> We do already capture the number of pages in the digitised copy as well as 
> the physical format of the book (using P43 has dimension on an F5 Item). We 
> capture data related to the printing of the book via a F3 Manifestation 
> Product Type and a F32 Carrier Production Event.
> 
> My intuition is that the number of sheets could be modelled as an E29 Design 
> or Procedure that P129 is about the F3 Manifestation Product Type.
> 
> But how to add the information "number of sheets" to the E29 Design? 
> 
> Two thoughts:
> - Simply as P3 has note: "20 sheets" (I would like it to be more machine 
> readable)
> - as a P68 foresees use of E57 Material that P2 has type "sheet" (but where 
> to add the quantity of sheets?)
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Florian
> ___
> Crm-sig mailing list
> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr
> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig


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Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling the number of sheets used to print a book

[George Bruseker]

Hi Florian,

So do I understand the question right that you want to keep track of the
envisioned number of pages regardless the actual number whether it be a
digital or physical format? In FRBR 2.4 there is the property on F3 which
is CLP57 should have number of parts. Could work if you are using FRBR 2.4
but you wouldn't be able to specify that the parts are of type page, which
I guess is what you are after.

In CRMSoc we are working on this notion of Activity Plan and related idea
of an 'Event Trigger Template' which has a bunch of modal properties of
what a thing ought to be. This idea could be extended to an 'Object Trigger
Template' in principle although none of that is officially in the standard
to this point.

The question is definitely around the foreseeing and the fact that the
things that can be foreseen with extant properties are limited. You might
want to check out the discussions around the Activity Plan though for
inspiration on extension.

Best,

George

On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:13 PM Florian Kräutli <
fkraeu...@mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I have a data modelling issue that I would like to discuss with you.
>
> We have a database of books .
> Currently we are in the process of identifying, for each book, the number
> of sheets used to print it. The number of sheets is a good indication for
> the investment required to print a book. We want to store this information
> in the database.
>
> We do already capture the number of pages in the digitised copy as well as
> the physical format of the book (using P43 has dimension on an F5 Item). We
> capture data related to the printing of the book via a F3 Manifestation
> Product Type and a F32 Carrier Production Event.
>
> My intuition is that the number of sheets could be modelled as an E29
> Design or Procedure that P129 is about the F3 Manifestation Product Type.
>
> But how to add the information "number of sheets" to the E29 Design?
>
> Two thoughts:
> - Simply as P3 has note: "20 sheets" (I would like it to be more machine
> readable)
> - as a P68 foresees use of E57 Material that P2 has type "sheet" (but
> where to add the quantity of sheets?)
>
> What do you think?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Florian
> ___
> Crm-sig mailing list
> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr
> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
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