Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] CodeEnvy continues to use deceptive wording that's harmful to Eclipse
Great words Max. Whole heartedly agree. I think the real issue started at EclipseCon where they presented themselves as “the next generation Eclipse IDE”, not “a next generation Eclipse IDE", or as I see now their web pages simply stating "Eclipse Che Next Generation Eclipse IDE” which implies “the” if you read it that way. Funny how that one word has triggered such an emotional response. At any rate, as we keep hearing from Steve O’Grady’s “The New Kingmakers” book, developers will decide, not marketing people as much as they try. Che does have value as a cloud-based IDE for those who want to use such things. I don’t think that impacts much the need for our veteran Eclipse IDE much. As I’ve stated many times, I’m more worried about developers dropping their IDEs for fast editors-come-IDEs like Sublime and VS Code. We have enough to work on to compete there. Doug. From: <cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org<mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org>> on behalf of Max Andersen <mande...@redhat.com<mailto:mande...@redhat.com>> Reply-To: Cross project issues <cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org<mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org>> Date: Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 3:36 AM To: Cross project issues <cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org<mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org>> Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] CodeEnvy continues to use deceptive wording that's harmful to Eclipse Hi Konstantin, Below is my opinon as an Eclipse community member (not speaking on behalf of the foundation nor my employer) I recognize the wording CodeEnvy or rather the Eclipse Che project is bold and for some maybe even directly threatining - but I do not believe the foundation as such should restrict a specific projects ability to market it self as long as it is not directly deceiving nor outright lying. And Che stating it is a next generation Eclipse IDE is not false, neither was it when the similar wording was used by the press when Eclipse Orion was starting off. If we (the desktop Eclipse IDE community) want desktop Eclipse IDE to survive and grow we should not be scared about words stated by other communities inside or outside Eclipse. We should be encouraged to show show the desktop Eclipse IDE also can grow and not stay stagnated as it have done for a while now. This really is nothing new and sure we can "blame" IBM and other companies for retracting its original people investement into desktop Eclipse IDE - but that are those companies choice, not the Foundation. We'll either need to replace those people or change how we do things. I've helped where I can from my role in Red Hat but just like IBM couldn't pull it of forever alone, neither can Red Hat. This is why I've done what I can and will continue to do in future on the desktop Eclipse platform features, and I encourage everyone to do what you can too. Talk to your companies, talk to your contributors and encourage collaboration and more contributions to grow the desktop Eclipse IDE. And in that, we cannot ignore there are other markets where a cloud IDE like Eclipse Che has its major advantages over desktop Eclipse - just like desktop Eclipse IDE has advantages over cloud IDE's. We are entering a world where there no longer will be a "single" IDE, the community both inside and outside Eclipse foundation have spoken stating that one IDE does not fit all. Some don't even want a full IDE, just a fancy editor. As a long time contributor to desktop Eclipse IDE and other tools out there, I understand that there are limited number of people who will actually be able to contribute to a single platform. Thus the "multi-IDE" world do scare me, mainly since it means more work for me and my team ;/ Backing the language service protocol is my way to try and build the technical bridges between these multiple IDE's - if it works, all will grow. If not, one will grow stronger faster and win. This is how opensource works. This is how (almost) anything works and evolves. I encourage you and everyone else to help grow the world of Eclipse IDE's to be a player in the world of next gen IDE's - it is together we win. No individual person or single company will carry this. Thank you, /max On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 6:11 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik <konstantin.komissarc...@oracle.com<mailto:konstantin.komissarc...@oracle.com>> wrote: I was just reading the latest Microsoft/RedHat/Codenvy press release and came across the problematic wording that we’ve seen before. Microsoft Visual Studio Code and Eclipse Che, the next-generation Eclipse IDE, have added support for the protocol. https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/red-hat-codenvy-and-microsoft-collaborate-language-server-protocol I think it’s great that Eclipse Foundation is getting more technologically diverse, but I find
Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] CodeEnvy continues to use deceptive wording that's harmful to Eclipse
On 06/30/2016 10:27 AM, Eike Stepper wrote: Hi All, I have not a very strong opinion on this wording, but it strikes me that their wording is unnecessarily biasing. "Next-generation" does imply that it's a newer and better variant of something that's older and less good. IMHO, "next generation" implies even more: that the "old generation" is no longer actively developed. If that sinks in in people's mind, that would be doing real harm. BTW: when Orion was new, I remember people like Mike M. making it more than clear that Orion is *not* "Eclipse in the browser". my 2c. Stephan ___ cross-project-issues-dev mailing list cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] CodeEnvy continues to use deceptive wording that's harmful to Eclipse
Hi All, I have not a very strong opinion on this wording, but it strikes me that their wording is unnecessarily biasing. "Next-generation" does imply that it's a newer and better variant of something that's older and less good. I would appreciate if they just tried to avoid this connotation and rather focused on the functional differences. I'm also not a good expert of what their different functionality actually is, but wouldn't it be possible to tag it "Eclipse Remote IDE", or "Eclipse Web IDE", or whatever?! That would definitely minimize confusion of the user community and reduce bad thoughts among our traditional IDE developers and contributors. Cheers /Eike http://www.esc-net.de http://thegordian.blogspot.com http://twitter.com/eikestepper Am 29.06.2016 um 18:11 schrieb Konstantin Komissarchik: I was just reading the latest Microsoft/RedHat/Codenvy press release and came across the problematic wording that we’ve seen before. /Microsoft Visual Studio Code and *Eclipse Che, the next-generation Eclipse IDE*, have added support for the protocol./ https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/red-hat-codenvy-and-microsoft-collaborate-language-server-protocol I think it’s great that Eclipse Foundation is getting more technologically diverse, but I find it very concerning that Eclipse Foundation is allowing Codenvy/Che to continue to use wording like this. Current Eclipse users will read this statement as an official statement of the roadmap for the desktop Eclipse IDE or whatever the hell we are supposed to call it now that Eclipse IDE doesn’t mean anything, apparently. I understand why Codenvy would use wording like this as it helps them to promote Che. What I don’t understand is why Eclipse Foundation, through inaction, is allowing this to continue. Thanks, - Konstantin ___ cross-project-issues-dev mailing list cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev ___ cross-project-issues-dev mailing list cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] CodeEnvy continues to use deceptive wording that's harmful to Eclipse
Hi Konstantin, Below is my opinon as an Eclipse community member (not speaking on behalf of the foundation nor my employer) I recognize the wording CodeEnvy or rather the Eclipse Che project is bold and for some maybe even directly threatining - but I do not believe the foundation as such should restrict a specific projects ability to market it self as long as it is not directly deceiving nor outright lying. And Che stating it is a next generation Eclipse IDE is not false, neither was it when the similar wording was used by the press when Eclipse Orion was starting off. If we (the desktop Eclipse IDE community) want desktop Eclipse IDE to survive and grow we should not be scared about words stated by other communities inside or outside Eclipse. We should be encouraged to show show the desktop Eclipse IDE also can grow and not stay stagnated as it have done for a while now. This really is nothing new and sure we can "blame" IBM and other companies for retracting its original people investement into desktop Eclipse IDE - but that are those companies choice, not the Foundation. We'll either need to replace those people or change how we do things. I've helped where I can from my role in Red Hat but just like IBM couldn't pull it of forever alone, neither can Red Hat. This is why I've done what I can and will continue to do in future on the desktop Eclipse platform features, and I encourage everyone to do what you can too. Talk to your companies, talk to your contributors and encourage collaboration and more contributions to grow the desktop Eclipse IDE. And in that, we cannot ignore there are other markets where a cloud IDE like Eclipse Che has its major advantages over desktop Eclipse - just like desktop Eclipse IDE has advantages over cloud IDE's. We are entering a world where there no longer will be a "single" IDE, the community both inside and outside Eclipse foundation have spoken stating that one IDE does not fit all. Some don't even want a full IDE, just a fancy editor. As a long time contributor to desktop Eclipse IDE and other tools out there, I understand that there are limited number of people who will actually be able to contribute to a single platform. Thus the "multi-IDE" world do scare me, mainly since it means more work for me and my team ;/ Backing the language service protocol is my way to try and build the technical bridges between these multiple IDE's - if it works, all will grow. If not, one will grow stronger faster and win. This is how opensource works. This is how (almost) anything works and evolves. I encourage you and everyone else to help grow the world of Eclipse IDE's to be a player in the world of next gen IDE's - it is together we win. No individual person or single company will carry this. Thank you, /max On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 6:11 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik < konstantin.komissarc...@oracle.com> wrote: > I was just reading the latest Microsoft/RedHat/Codenvy press release and > came across the problematic wording that we’ve seen before. > > > > *Microsoft Visual Studio Code and Eclipse Che, the next-generation Eclipse > IDE, have added support for the protocol.* > > > > > https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/red-hat-codenvy-and-microsoft-collaborate-language-server-protocol > > > > I think it’s great that Eclipse Foundation is getting more technologically > diverse, but I find it very concerning that Eclipse Foundation is allowing > Codenvy/Che to continue to use wording like this. Current Eclipse users > will read this statement as an official statement of the roadmap for the > desktop Eclipse IDE or whatever the hell we are supposed to call it now > that Eclipse IDE doesn’t mean anything, apparently. > > > > I understand why Codenvy would use wording like this as it helps them to > promote Che. What I don’t understand is why Eclipse Foundation, through > inaction, is allowing this to continue. > > > > Thanks, > > > > - Konstantin > > ___ > cross-project-issues-dev mailing list > cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org > To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe > from this list, visit > https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev > -- /max https://about.me/maxandersen ___ cross-project-issues-dev mailing list cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] CodeEnvy continues to use deceptive wording that's harmful to Eclipse
I guess one question, is that really the Foundation’s role? Is it not up to us, the community, to make sure the messaging is clear? Though I’m not as worried about that at the moment. I gave a short talk to a local Ottawa IoT meetup and used the term “Eclipse” and they knew exactly what I was talking about, using Eclipse to program their Arduinos. And they rather liked the idea :). Aside from that, the language server protocol is a great initiative and something our tooling really needs. Don’t forget Red Hat is also a major player here and I think we’ll all benefit from it. Doug. From: <cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org<mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-boun...@eclipse.org>> on behalf of Konstantin Komissarchik <konstantin.komissarc...@oracle.com<mailto:konstantin.komissarc...@oracle.com>> Reply-To: Cross project issues <cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org<mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org>> Date: Wednesday, June 29, 2016 at 12:11 PM To: "cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org<mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org>" <cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org<mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org>> Subject: [cross-project-issues-dev] CodeEnvy continues to use deceptive wording that's harmful to Eclipse I was just reading the latest Microsoft/RedHat/Codenvy press release and came across the problematic wording that we’ve seen before. Microsoft Visual Studio Code and Eclipse Che, the next-generation Eclipse IDE, have added support for the protocol. https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/red-hat-codenvy-and-microsoft-collaborate-language-server-protocol I think it’s great that Eclipse Foundation is getting more technologically diverse, but I find it very concerning that Eclipse Foundation is allowing Codenvy/Che to continue to use wording like this. Current Eclipse users will read this statement as an official statement of the roadmap for the desktop Eclipse IDE or whatever the hell we are supposed to call it now that Eclipse IDE doesn’t mean anything, apparently. I understand why Codenvy would use wording like this as it helps them to promote Che. What I don’t understand is why Eclipse Foundation, through inaction, is allowing this to continue. Thanks, - Konstantin ___ cross-project-issues-dev mailing list cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
[cross-project-issues-dev] CodeEnvy continues to use deceptive wording that's harmful to Eclipse
I was just reading the latest Microsoft/RedHat/Codenvy press release and came across the problematic wording that we’ve seen before. Microsoft Visual Studio Code and Eclipse Che, the next-generation Eclipse IDE, have added support for the protocol. https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/red-hat-codenvy-and-microsoft-collaborate-language-server-protocol I think it’s great that Eclipse Foundation is getting more technologically diverse, but I find it very concerning that Eclipse Foundation is allowing Codenvy/Che to continue to use wording like this. Current Eclipse users will read this statement as an official statement of the roadmap for the desktop Eclipse IDE or whatever the hell we are supposed to call it now that Eclipse IDE doesn’t mean anything, apparently. I understand why Codenvy would use wording like this as it helps them to promote Che. What I don’t understand is why Eclipse Foundation, through inaction, is allowing this to continue. Thanks, - Konstantin ___ cross-project-issues-dev mailing list cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
