Re: [crossfire] Balance ideas
On 01/ 8/11 02:54 AM, Nicolas Weeger wrote: Yes - that is reasonable. But I also wonder if there is/should be a way to increase potency at the expense of sp cost. Taking that fireball example, changing the weighting would more or less keep the sp cost the same - but the power of the fireball itself does not change all that much. But maybe there are some modifiers which increase the power (eg, damage, duration, range), but also drastically increase the sp cost - if you want to try and emulate current spell effects, your sort of need this. Otherwise, just by changing weighting, you will never be able to get something as powerful as a large fireball currently is - but at the same time, the large fireball itself is higher level and costs considerably more sp (base 16 sp vs 6). Which is why I mention that possibly the sp cost is a weighted combination of the various weights, so you can make power more expensive that radius, for instance. Right, but I think for that to really work (get desired effect), you may need to do something beyond weighting - adjusting the weighting itself may not change some parameters enough. You might almost need some modifier which does something like (range+1) at some increased cost of SP. This is just my preference, but at some level, it is nice to have things to try and achieve (once I get 10th level, I can cast this cool spell) - if number of spells is drastically reduced, I have a feeling that effect would also change. So make fireball a level 1, comet a level 47, meteor storm a level 80. That's a challenge to reach 80 to get really powerful meteor storm spell :) Or there could be steps in increase, ie from level 1 to 10, fireball has a base power of 3, from 11 to 20 5, and such, with some big steps along the way. Yes - that might work. I was more just thinking about the idea of learning spells. On a similar note, I think it would be interesting to have most all skills give some new benefit once in a while, eg, for melee skills, maybe at higher level, there is a chance of stunning on opponent - for thieves, extra damage would make sense, and so on. Those wouldn't as much be about balance (those extra effects a fighter has may make things a little easier, but not a lot), but more about cool new things - eg, 'that is something I couldn't do before'. Or add a fire mastery skill, that will increase the power or radius when you gain it. That might also work. I wonder if one could even do something like that for spells - have a 'beginners version', 'expert version', 'master version', 'grandmaster version' type of things. Maybe the higher versions have an increase in base damage or something else - I don't know. On a side note, I think it might be better to remove the sp adjustment based on level. Eg, that basic fireball will only cast 5 sp, whether you are level 1 or 50 - presuming no modifiers. It is just odd now that based on when cost increases, one could gain a level but effectively cast fewer spells because their cost has gone up. Note that the whole global balance requires some heavy work on item_power. I'd definitely see good weapons over 30, just to require a player to be high level and not a low one. Same would be for armors, a 1-40 item power doesn't seem too weird. This would force players to compromise on the equipment. Yes - in some places, this is easy to fix - any pre-defined weapon (eg, it is set in a map) can have the item power set appropriately. A problem is for the random items that are generated - it can generate things with potentially wrong values (wrong in the sense it is too high or too low) - that is because it uses a fairly basic formula which is always hard to adjust to be perfect (some attacks are more important than others, etc). On a vaguely related idea would be to change the entire basis on how weapons are improved (armor also, but that is more limited right now). Many games have the idea of runes/sigils/whatever that improve items, but the item has a limited number of slots to hold these. These sigils are also found/recovered from items during adventuring. In some ways, this is more interesting than current method which just requires large amounts of wealth - you need to find both the base item you want to improve (better one may have more slots, as well as just have more base slots) as well as the sigils themselves. But that probably starts to stray away from balance, other than the fact that the current weapon improvement scheme probably has balance issues right now. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Balance ideas
Yes - that is reasonable. But I also wonder if there is/should be a way to increase potency at the expense of sp cost. Taking that fireball example, changing the weighting would more or less keep the sp cost the same - but the power of the fireball itself does not change all that much. But maybe there are some modifiers which increase the power (eg, damage, duration, range), but also drastically increase the sp cost - if you want to try and emulate current spell effects, your sort of need this. Otherwise, just by changing weighting, you will never be able to get something as powerful as a large fireball currently is - but at the same time, the large fireball itself is higher level and costs considerably more sp (base 16 sp vs 6). Which is why I mention that possibly the sp cost is a weighted combination of the various weights, so you can make power more expensive that radius, for instance. Fair enough, just see note above. But one other thought would be is there even higher level spells, or are pretty much all spells going to be first level, but it is the power of the spell that changes? This is just my preference, but at some level, it is nice to have things to try and achieve (once I get 10th level, I can cast this cool spell) - if number of spells is drastically reduced, I have a feeling that effect would also change. So make fireball a level 1, comet a level 47, meteor storm a level 80. That's a challenge to reach 80 to get really powerful meteor storm spell :) Or there could be steps in increase, ie from level 1 to 10, fireball has a base power of 3, from 11 to 20 5, and such, with some big steps along the way. Or add a fire mastery skill, that will increase the power or radius when you gain it. Maybe - but presumably, just as stats help out a player, under basis of same rules, one could adjust power of monsters by their stats. For example, the average new character is going to have a stat average of 12 or so, decent armor, decent weapon, etc. If those kobolds have a stat average of 4, and no armor and crappy weapon, it should still be pretty easy for the character to kill those kobolds. Just like characters, level isn't everything - a level 100 character with no items and no spells would likely be a fairly easy target for a much lower character to take out. I've also thought of the idea of changing stats so the range is much greater - say 1 to 100 - in some ways, it is easier for players to improve stats (stat potions work better) - but under such a system it may still be very difficult for a character to get one stat above 75, let alone 3 or 4 stats. But powerful monsters might very well have several stats above that. Note that the whole global balance requires some heavy work on item_power. I'd definitely see good weapons over 30, just to require a player to be high level and not a low one. Same would be for armors, a 1-40 item power doesn't seem too weird. This would force players to compromise on the equipment. Nicolas -- Mon p'tit coin du web - http://nicolas.weeger.org signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Balance ideas
On 01/ 3/11 01:27 PM, Nicolas Weeger wrote: It also seems that this doesn't necessarily change balance much in itself - it makes spells much more flexible, but the key for the balance on that is defining the right base values for things like damage, duration, radius and sp cost. Yes. Though sp cost could either be fixed by level like now, or maybe a combination of duration, power and radius (for instance it costs more to make it stronger that to make it larger). Yes - that is reasonable. But I also wonder if there is/should be a way to increase potency at the expense of sp cost. Taking that fireball example, changing the weighting would more or less keep the sp cost the same - but the power of the fireball itself does not change all that much. But maybe there are some modifiers which increase the power (eg, damage, duration, range), but also drastically increase the sp cost - if you want to try and emulate current spell effects, your sort of need this. Otherwise, just by changing weighting, you will never be able to get something as powerful as a large fireball currently is - but at the same time, the large fireball itself is higher level and costs considerably more sp (base 16 sp vs 6). I would guess that there would still be higher level spells out there with higher base damages, durations, etc (eg, large fireball as we have now) - am I right in that, or are you thinking of reducing number of spells and just letting players adjust the parameters to get desired results? I'm thinking of reducing the spells. Drastically. Make 'small fireball', 'medium fireball' and 'large fireball' mere aliases to the 'fireball' spell, with different weights roughly emulating the current behaviour. Gaining power will be a matter of leveling, not finding a higher version of the same spell. Fair enough, just see note above. But one other thought would be is there even higher level spells, or are pretty much all spells going to be first level, but it is the power of the spell that changes? This is just my preference, but at some level, it is nice to have things to try and achieve (once I get 10th level, I can cast this cool spell) - if number of spells is drastically reduced, I have a feeling that effect would also change. Monsters and players: - That looks pretty good - one thing I might add is 'should monsters use the same rules for stats as players?' Right now, the meaning of stats for monsters is completely different than it is for players. I would say 'yes'. But maybe change the scale, have players start at level 5 on 150, make monsters from 1 to 500. Maybe - but presumably, just as stats help out a player, under basis of same rules, one could adjust power of monsters by their stats. For example, the average new character is going to have a stat average of 12 or so, decent armor, decent weapon, etc. If those kobolds have a stat average of 4, and no armor and crappy weapon, it should still be pretty easy for the character to kill those kobolds. Just like characters, level isn't everything - a level 100 character with no items and no spells would likely be a fairly easy target for a much lower character to take out. I've also thought of the idea of changing stats so the range is much greater - say 1 to 100 - in some ways, it is easier for players to improve stats (stat potions work better) - but under such a system it may still be very difficult for a character to get one stat above 75, let alone 3 or 4 stats. But powerful monsters might very well have several stats above that. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
[crossfire] Balance ideas
Hello. A few ideas for game balance: http://wiki.metalforge.net/doku.php/user:ryo:balance Nicolas -- Mon p'tit coin du web - http://nicolas.weeger.org signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
