Re: [crossfire] Player accounts, new player creation mechanism
Hello. Replying to various points in one mail :) Benefits I see to account system: * easier for player to manage characters * easier for players to remember other's identities (one account vs multiple chars - assuming account named is for instance displayed in the 'who' output) * maybe character exchange * why not some benefit from dead chars on perma death servers? Agreed on class information chosen at the same time, makes sense. I'd see a transition period: at first old clients could create characters without accounts. Newer clients could create account and link characters to it (create account 'Nicolas', and tell the server the 'Warrior' character is linked to this account). Then remove players without account. Client could make some shortcut and propose to create account + player at the same time for lazy players. I see the account as a better way to count players - best case all players use an account, so we know how many there are ; worse case, one account per character, same situation as now. Yes, server will always check what client sends - basics of our protocol anyway. Concerning Mark's last point: obviously, player will choose 'login' or 'new char' on client which will send the right command - wrong password implies failure to log, not new char creation. I hope I addressed all points :) Nicolas -- http://nicolas.weeger.org [Petit site d'images, de textes, de code, bref de l'aléatoire !] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Player accounts, new player creation mechanism
En l'instant précis du 04/02/08 08:44, Kevin R. Bulgrien s'exprimait en ces termes: When connecting to a server, a player can create or log in to an account. This account is linked to characters, and the player can manage (add, delete, maybe other things) them. this is a step that is not there right now - I'd like a little more information on why to add an account that is linked to characters instead of just having the current method. I think you partly answer your own question below, however, you might note comments about password management in my other reply, but I'll restate and reword the thoughts here in case it clarifies the point. I have many times thought how unfortunate that it is easy to use duplicate passwords from one server to another because each character needs a password... so, it is easy out of habit from typing a password on one server, to accidentally use it on another one. I don't know about you, but I don't trust admins on other people's servers. Consider especially cases Sorry to ask, but what in current state of accounts handling prevents your from using different passwords on different servers? Nothing forces you to use same password on different server, and you can use same password for all your accounts on a given server... Now, a really interresting point in having a notion of accounts, is that it opens a wide range of new possibilities :) 1) Get an idea of how much actual player there is, instead of how much characters 2) Exchange of items between characters of same player? (Some commercial MMorpg allow this). Not that it would be impossible now ;) 3) A common interface to manage all your characters (delete them, get their stats, whatever) 4) Retrieve password interface (send token by email?) On the other end, there are more important things to do for players than an account, it will be better for players to have a simple interface to fully design their new character prior to any acocunt management interface. There is already a wiki brainstorming page for this. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Player accounts, new player creation mechanism
On Sun, 3 Feb 2008, Nicolas Weeger wrote: Character creation mechanism is mostly moved to client, where the player can select race and statistics. Hi Nicholas. Presumably the info generated in the client is checked somehow on the server to prevent hacked clients becoming a problem? Eg, a completely point based statistic system would be easily checked by the server before the character was allowed to login. I gather all info on a character would still be stored server-side. I'd keep class to be chosen ingame for now, as it depends on maps and such. Characters can possibly be transferred between accounts. Account survives until removal by player, characters disappear on death on permadeath servers. Dead characters on permadeath servers can still return from the dead via resurrection so they shouldn't be deleted. Cheers, Rob -- With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine... -- RFC 1925 The Twelve Networking Truths ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Player accounts, new player creation mechanism
Sorry to ask, but what in current state of accounts handling prevents your from using different passwords on different servers? Nothing forces you to use same password on different server, and you can use same password for all your accounts on a given server... Obviously nothing prevents it, and that was not the point at all was it? Now, a really interresting point in having a notion of accounts, is that it opens a wide range of new possibilities :) 1) Get an idea of how much actual player there is, instead of how much characters 2) Exchange of items between characters of same player? (Some commercial MMorpg allow this). Not that it would be impossible now ;) 3) A common interface to manage all your characters (delete them, get their stats, whatever) 4) Retrieve password interface (send token by email?) On the other end, there are more important things to do for players than an account, it will be better for players to have a simple interface to fully design their new character prior to any acocunt management interface. There is already a wiki brainstorming page for this. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Player accounts, new player creation mechanism
Robert Brockway wrote: On Sun, 3 Feb 2008, Nicolas Weeger wrote: Character creation mechanism is mostly moved to client, where the player can select race and statistics. Hi Nicholas. Presumably the info generated in the client is checked somehow on the server to prevent hacked clients becoming a problem? Eg, a completely point based statistic system would be easily checked by the server before the character was allowed to login. I gather all info on a character would still be stored server-side. Yes on both counts - not addressed in that particular e-mail, but was discussed extensively in the past. Basic idea is server would send relevant information to client (this is how many stat points you get, these are the different classes races and what the stat adjustments are, other benefits, etc). Player then plays around with them (let me see how setting this class affects character, etc), and when satisfied, hits something like done. Client then sends data back to server - basically the stats, race, and class. Server then verifies data is correct (if a player doesn't use all their points, that would be fine, but a player can't use more than allowed). This basically follows the design philosophy of don't trust anything from the client. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Player accounts, new player creation mechanism
There are certainly some advantages to an account based system, including potentially easier banning of players. But several points need addressing/clarification: 1) How are accounts created? If a player can create an account at any time, and thus have a 1:1 account:character mapping, knowing number of unique players, etc, may be difficult. To make this happen, may want some greater benefit for the characters in such a system (item trading, maybe apartments/houses are account based, not character based, etc). 2) Need to handle player files without accounts. If a player logs in with one of those characters, are they forced to create an account? Is account name space different than character namespace? For example, if I use the name 'Mark' for my account, does that now prohibit characters from using that name? 3) In terms of security, one could argue accounts may make things worse. Right now if I play on a 'suspect' server and that server admin looks at my character and gets my password, that may only let him log into 1 character on another server (or at least he only has information on that one character on that server - he would need other mechanisms to find out all the character names I play on the other servers). However, if he gets access to my account, he now has access to all my characters. And I think the point tchize raised using different password on different servers is valid - is it really any more likely I'll use different passwords for different accounts on different servers? If I know my account on ailesse has password foobar, and account on metalforge is kumquat, it would seem I could remember that for individual player files just as easily. If security is a concern, other things should be investigated - right now, password from client to server are plaintext (allowing easy snooping) - it was decided long ago that character files are not critical enough to warrant the complexity of doing something like ssl. That said, I'm not against the idea of accounts - it could be useful. But like fair number, I'd need to see some compelling reasons of how it would be useful and why it is more important than many other things (but like everything, if some developer is gung ho on doing it, who am I to stop them). But at the same time, I think some of the points about account creation and legacy character files need to be answered. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
[crossfire] Player accounts, new player creation mechanism
Hello. Here is a proposition for new player account mechanism and character management. To be clear: * player = human playing on Crossfire * character = ingame character When connecting to a server, a player can create or log in to an account. This account is linked to characters, and the player can manage (add, delete, maybe other things) them. Character creation mechanism is mostly moved to client, where the player can select race and statistics. I'd keep class to be chosen ingame for now, as it depends on maps and such. Characters can possibly be transferred between accounts. Account survives until removal by player, characters disappear on death on permadeath servers. Opinions? Suggestions? Nicolas -- http://nicolas.weeger.org [Petit site d'images, de textes, de code, bref de l'aléatoire !] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Player accounts, new player creation mechanism
Nicolas Weeger wrote: Hello. Here is a proposition for new player account mechanism and character management. Note that this has been discussed a lot before on mailing list on wiki - probably good to look there for some starting points on this. To be clear: * player = human playing on Crossfire * character = ingame character When connecting to a server, a player can create or log in to an account. This account is linked to characters, and the player can manage (add, delete, maybe other things) them. this is a step that is not there right now - I'd like a little more information on why to add an account that is linked to characters instead of just having the current method. Character creation mechanism is mostly moved to client, where the player can select race and statistics. I'd keep class to be chosen ingame for now, as it depends on maps and such. disagree on that - having half the character creation in the client and have still done on maps really isn't the right answer. A new player only has half the necessary information to create a character - race and stats. He chooses those, and then finds out that based on class, maybe he didn't choose good stats and race, and has to start over. Also, there really isn't much on the map related to classes - yes, there is a selection mechanism in the hall of selection, but all of those just use the generic archetype for the different classes. Just as we can send race information to the client, it should be easy enough to send class information to client. Give all those classes some unique type (if they don't have one already) so that the server can easily find all the classes and send relevant information. The data sent is really going to be in the same form as race data (stat adjustment, special notes, etc), so if we're sending one, sending the other wouldn't be much more work. If some server wants to add or remove classes, it is just a matter of changing the archetypes. Right now, if you want to change a class, you have to change the archetype and change the hall of selection, so just making it an archetype ability should make it easier to change classes. Characters can possibly be transferred between accounts. Account survives until removal by player, characters disappear on death on permadeath servers. I'd still need to see more information on what benefit/meaning accounts have here. The first that come to mind are for servers that want to be private or pay for play - they can then have some alternative mechanism to create the initial account (once I get the money, I'll create an account type of thing). Thats fine, but I'd almost say folks that want to run those servers should write and maintain that code. Second point is that it may make character management easier - I log in as mark, and I can see all the characters with my account. I say may make character management easier - this really depends on how many servers I play on, if I can get the same account name on all of them, etc. If I end up having different account names on the different servers, doesn't really make things much easier (OTOH, I suppose the client could remember different account names on different servers). ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Player accounts, new player creation mechanism
When connecting to a server, a player can create or log in to an account. This account is linked to characters, and the player can manage (add, delete, maybe other things) them. this is a step that is not there right now - I'd like a little more information on why to add an account that is linked to characters instead of just having the current method. I think you partly answer your own question below, however, you might note comments about password management in my other reply, but I'll restate and reword the thoughts here in case it clarifies the point. I have many times thought how unfortunate that it is easy to use duplicate passwords from one server to another because each character needs a password... so, it is easy out of habit from typing a password on one server, to accidentally use it on another one. I don't know about you, but I don't trust admins on other people's servers. Consider especially cases where a server admin might be hostile for whatever reason. An admin should not be easily able to discern what someones password might be on another server. Naturally, you cannot protect a player from their own stupidity regarding intentional re-use of passwords, but I do think that lowering the risk of accidental re-use of a password is responsible design and indeed worth considering on that merit alone. Characters can possibly be transferred between accounts. Account survives until removal by player, characters disappear on death on permadeath servers. I'd still need to see more information on what benefit/meaning accounts have here. The first that come to mind are for servers that want to be private or pay for play - they can then have some alternative mechanism to create the initial account (once I get the money, I'll create an account type of thing). Thats fine, but I'd almost say folks that want to run those servers should write and maintain that code. Second point is that it may make character management easier - I log in as mark, and I can see all the characters with my account. I say may make character management easier - this really depends on how many servers I play on, if I can get the same account name on all of them, etc. If I end up having different account names on the different servers, doesn't really make things much easier (OTOH, I suppose the client could remember different account names on different servers). ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Player accounts, new player creation mechanism
Here is a proposition for new player account mechanism and character management. To be clear: * player = human playing on Crossfire * character = ingame character When connecting to a server, a player can create or log in to an account. This account is linked to characters, and the player can manage (add, delete, maybe other things) them. See below. Character creation mechanism is mostly moved to client, where the player can select race and statistics. I'd keep class to be chosen ingame for now, as it depends on maps and such. Actually, I think this is the most difficult aspect of character creation at the moment. Without class selection in the same place as race and stats, it requires external resources to adequately design a character. If we're going to improve character creation, I'd say rolling in class to the creation process is far more important than the suggestion to have accounts on the server as it would be a major improvement for the player. Also, even if creation is pushed off to the client for execution, I think it wise to consider that the information needs to be supplied by the server to get away from some very clunky issues regarding information handling that has to do with character creation. At the moment, there are about 4 copies of the Hall of Selection with identical information about each class. This is a pain to manage, and, furthermore, if character creation is pushed to the client, then we don't want to have to maintain this information separately for each client. I was somewhat stymied by the great volume of technical nitpicks on Yann's idea about a login server as expressed on IRC. The implementation effort need not be that great, as can be determined by more carefully considering what actual work would be needed. It could centralize character creation in a way that provides both immediate and long term advantage. I saw no compelling reason to so thoroughly reject the suggestion and actually prefer that the idea of the server-side login server module be reconsidered, and integrated with this suggestion for client-side character generation. Characters can possibly be transferred between accounts. Account survives until removal by player, characters disappear on death on permadeath servers. I rather do like the use of a single password per server... that's always a pain in that I try not to reuse passwords from one server to the next in case they were to be breakable. I do not make a habit of trusting administrators on systems. Even if the same password is reused per server, it is still common for me to make the mistake of re-using a password from a different server out of typing habit. By making a login account, the password is created only once. I do see this as somewhat nice, but still it strikes me as not as much of a priority in that the value add seems somewhat low. The main reason to include it may be that if the design for a new character creation subsystem makes it easy to do, or drives development of a cleaner design, then it might be done. Kevin ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
