Re: [crossfire] Spell idea: Elemental skills
Hi! I will just chime in my own ideas about this topic, without directly replying to any of the myriad postings on the topic. The idea of elemental magic is a good one, but I am not quite sure it's worth while: we already have two divisions within the mana-magic: the division of summoning, sorcery, evocation and pyromancy plus the path-division. I think we would be better off using the existing division, just rebalancing them. Mark's notion of every elemental-skill having its own bolt (fire, frost etc - btw. lightning is decidedly different from other bolts, I would not count it here) can equally well be used with either current skill or path division: every current skill/path would have its own bolt: firebolt for pyro, frostbolt for evo, manabolt would naturally fall into sorcery I think (summoning is a rather difficult thing here, though) or different paths would have different bolts: fire and cold paths are obvious, but I'm sure we would figure out the rest as well. The main problem with paths is that they apply (at least now) to praying as well, so it might not be a good idea to make them skills instead of what they are now. Also, there are quite many paths, which equates to very many spells, which may not be an easy job to do. The main problem with current spell skills is that they are really very different from each other; they are not all meant to be used similarly. Evocation and pyromancy are the really offensive skills, while sorcery is a kind of general-purpose and summoning is basically non-offensive (directly, that is) in nature. Their balancing is thus quite difficult - unless we make them similar in nature, but then we run into questions like what is the summoning equivalent of fireball? Returning to elemental skills, then. What's the problem there? Well, judging from all the postings, the main concern is those spells that don't quite have anything to do with elements, like detect magic. Other than that, they would be quite easy to balance. I am not quite sure, though: there are currently quite a lot of monsters with high fire and cold resistance but not so many with high air resistance (thinking of air as lightning here). [A side note: would these spells, like current spells, do fire AND magical damage, so if there is high magic resistance, it's used instead of fire? I think this is a little confusing system, but this has nothing to do with the topic at hand.] My idea about general-purpose spell skill would be sorcery, as has already been suggested, but we can (again?) learn from [A]DD here: it has specialist wizards and general wizards, with specialists given something extra for their speciality and denied some (arbitrary) opposing school of magic while generalists can learn everything but do not get any bonus either. Note that in the DD system some specialists are denied even detect magic! We could do something similar, though. We could make sorcery a totally different type of magic: there is old magic (I'll call it sorcery for now) and newer elemental magic. This old magic would be able to access all the elemental spells, but at a lower level, say half (round up for 1st level's sake?) the sorcery level and elementalists could use sorcery spells similarly. This is *much* bigger restriction than current repelled (which might be quite ok for fire and cold if you are an earth elementalist), but on the other hand, it gives us the possibility of putting some real offensive spells into sorcery as well - thus making it worthwhile as your primary skill. The kind of offensive spells that would go to sorcery would be manabolts and such; plus I'd put *all* spells that do weaponmagic damage to sorcery. On the other hand, I would give elementalist spells the advantage that they do not do magic damage at all! Fire elemental spells do fire damage, period. So beholder's magic resistance would be useless. This non-magic damage could also be easily incorporated into lore to explain the existence of elemental magic (and weaponmagic spells, too): The High Wizards of old were disturbed with some creatures being immune to their magic. They knew, however, that a dragon's breath - be it fire or frost - was magical but those same creatures were not immune to a dragon's breath, so they concluded that the dragons knew a way of using magic to create real things (i.e. the fire was real fire, not magical fire). They embarked on a quest to learn the ways of the dragons and eventually discovered elemental magic - and its limitation that anyone taking up the elemental skills forever foregoes the opposing elemental type (this could involve some kind of initiation rite where one's spirit is tied to the element in question, for example). Most of the High Wizards were happy with this, but some of them detested the binding of one's spirit, they wanted to keep their freedom and so they continued the quest and finally figured out a way of tapping into elemental magic without binding their spirits (although it was less
Re: [crossfire] Spell idea: Elemental skills
Going to try and reply relatively quickly and broadly, so I may miss some specific parts. Your point about spell paths also applying to praying spells is well taken - given someone denied fire would make certain prayers also impossible. There are a few ways to take this - one is to say, that yes, if your choose a magician type that is denied to fire, you can't cast those fire spells, even god given. Basis being that fire is really your antithesis, and you just can't manage to cast it, even if it is god given. I don't know if any classes start with talismans that give them repelled or denied, but that also would apply to cleric spells. Another approach would be to make the magic vs cleric spell paths unique. For example, one could create new spell paths that are used just for grouping within the magic skills, and thus don't mess/interfere with cleric spells. Perhaps not really clean, but could be done. While rebalancing the existing skills is also an idea, that seems harder to do and still keep them as is. Summoning is probably the most difficult skill to level, and one big reason is that most anything you summon can only attack one creature at a time, where as the mages get nice cone and bolt spells that can kill a bunch of monsters at a time. While similar type of offensive spells could be added to summoning, then it takes away a bit of that uniqueness - if as a summoner I get bolts, is that really much different than the other skills now? In retrospect, if I had to do it over again, I probably wouldn't have made summoning a distinct skills. And even the general sorcery one has problem - I put some spells in there simply because it needed some offensive spells, not necessarily because they fit. Now that could get changed if you could get exp for casting spells and not killing things - thus things like protection spells and stat improvement spells give you exp, making sorcery perhaps more interesting. While giving exp for just successfully casting spells can be done, doing it in a way that you don't get exp for it is difficult. In terms of electricity resistance - I should note that right now, the lightning bolt spell is available at relatively low level, so the fact that many monsters don't have protection against that doesn't really shift whether or not things move to elemental spells. I may be that lightning spells need to be tune differently than some of the other versions, and it may be that some monsters need to get adjusted. That said, I think that starting at some point, pretty much all monsters have protections against a variety of attacktypes, and if the monster is reasonably balanced, is more vulnerable to a certain attack type. You're not going to kill a titan with electricity for example. And it may very well be that some skills are better than others - in fact, I don't think that can be avoided. The more important point is to try and keep them at least somewhat balanced (if the air mage is clearly the best to play all the time, then some rebalancing is needed). But we know all the spells basically need to be rebalanced, so I don't see that as necessarily a stopper - in fact, by segregating skills, it may in fact be easier to spot balance issues - it seems pretty clear now that most of the summoning spells are underpowered relative to other skills, but before that was split it, you didn't see that as much. If the appropriate skills only have have spells of that type, and people say 'well, I got to level 20 in fire easily, and level 20 in water was a bit harder, but level 20 in earth was next to impossible', it makes it pretty clear that the earth spells - probably as a whole, need balancing, and not just individual spells - it would be a case that monsters are obviously more resistant to earth type magic than others. My thought for attacktypes is that at low levels, spells would still be magic | element - after all, it is 'elemental magic'. At higher levels, as you master the skills, you get some spells that are just the pure element - you've been able to master the skill enough that magic is no longer mixed in. As far as specialists and generalists - that is fair enough - a generalist that can learn every skill might be reasonable. The problem here is actual balancing of that - the current bonuses for attuned and repelled probably do not make up for the advantage of having all the elements available, so I'd think in most all cases, that is what people would do. You may get some people that specialize - a fireborn may very well be a fire mage simply for his own safety as much as anything else. ADD balances things in a different way - specialists get a bonus spell in what they are a specialized in. But it uses a memorization scheme, so if you only get 1 second level, but as a specialist, you get 2, that is a big bonus. You're proposal is an interesting one - I take it you
Re: [crossfire] Spell idea: Elemental skills
Nicolas Weeger wrote: Hello. Replying to various mails at the same time. And idea I had was to change the current spell skills into 4 elemental skills - fire, water, air, earth. The praying skill would not get changed. Sounds good, if we can balance everything. Balance is always a hard part. But I think by doing it with elements, it in some ways becomes less important. For example, if each element had a bolt type spell (there are already 3 of need - just need an earth bolt type of spell), and each had the same level, sp, damage, they are in a sense balanced with each other. Now some monsters are more vulnerable/protected to different attacks than others - using any fire spell against wyverns is pretty pointless, and ice spells quite effective. And there are other monsters in the opposite case. So I think that for most all monsters, there will always be cases of this spell (skill) is better to use. And if a player who has fire can't get water (ice), that does have some limitations. The idea of a 5th skill, well, not totally sure it's nice. I'd rather see generic spells you can use with multiple skills. The issue you'd have with a 5th skill is how to level it - if it has enough spells to level correctly, why use another elemental? if it has only utilitarian spells, how can you level it? That's a concern I have - it perhaps just needs to be examined more what spells really fall out of this area. In a sense, most of them are likely to be non damage spells (things like detect magic, strength, identify, dimension door, etc). I'd almost seen that misc magic skill would mostly be a place where a lot of non combat spells are bundled, with some combat spells added just so you can get exp so you can cast the useful non combat spells. That could be useful in other regards - another thread had the idea of breaking weapons down, so the some classes can only use a limit of the weapons (so a mage can't pick up the battle axe) - if we followed an example of multiple combat skills, something like a dagger could have 'skill simple|complex' type of thing, but the battle axe just have 'skill complex' Or what about: * create 'axe weapons' as skill, and forbid mages to get it The weapon skills could certainly get broken down into more categories (axe, mace, sword, dagger, whatever). That also affects fighter, as now it isn't just one handed/two handed skill, but more skills, so if you're really good in sword and find a nice artifact axe, you're pretty crappy in that. I'm not saying this shouldn't be done, but need to think about its impact. * put a cap to what mages can use in item power for weapons things like that? Depends how it is done. One could base the item power of a weapon you can equip based on the level of the skill to equip it. But the real issue comes down to how easy/if it is possible to learn skills. The problem case I think of is this - if skills are very difficult to learn, you sort of want to differentiate weapon skills for mages vs fighters. IF a fighter gets combat skills but no spell skills, but that mage gets some spell skills plus the default weapon skill (1 handed weapons), there is only a minimal disadvantage to starting the character as a mage, but still play them as a fighter (you get the relevant fighting skills, as well as the spell skills). That is where the idea of more weapon skills come up - mages must be able to use melee to some extent (dagger lets say), but right now, there is no enforcement, so putting in new skills may be a way. Its just sort of seems that if you are fighter and know sword, you should also be able to use dagger with similar effectiveness, so it may be nice the dagger swords use the same skill for fighter, but the mage just has a skill that limits them to daggers only. And it gives more importance to wands/rods/staves. I never use charging scrolls, for instance, not worth the issue - now if you find a nice wand, you have a use for them! I would though seriously limit the rods, because they effectively have unlimited casting - the golden unicorn horn for instance is really powerful, allowing almost continuous healing. That seems too powerful to me. True - way back when, rods didn't exist, and the only way to get some spells was via wand or scroll. I'd almost say that most rods should be artifact/quest type items. There are some limits on rods, like how fast they recharge - I suspect in many cases, rods are an item in need of balance just like a lot of other objects out there. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Spell idea: Elemental skills
I agree that trying to put all the spells into one of the 4 elements probably is a bad idea. I see two real solutions to that: 1) Create a fifth skill, probably something like 'pure magic', which would cover the manabolts, detect magic, and other misc spells. Problem I perhaps see is that this dilutes the spell skills even more, and if does include some of the bread butter spells (like detect magic), may be a case that every spell caster needs this skill. 2) have these general spells be usable with any of the elemental skills. In a sense, you could think of it as your best elemental skills becomes this fifth skill in terms of ability to cast spells. This means any spell cast would get detect magic, detect monster, strength, etc, at appropriate levels. But maybe this goes too much in the other direction of starting to make too many spells available to the general skills. But some other thoughts come to mind: -Just because the spell is available right now to players doesn't mean it has to be - some spells could be only available in wands, scrolls, potions, etc. - If we go the route that skills are much harder to gain (getting a spellcasting skill requires a quest, etc), then it becomes more likely that most players won't have these spells. For example, even my dumb fighter or barbarian will often learn sorcery at some point in the game, and thus detect magic, which is a first level spell. So instead of using scrolls or whatnot to do detect magic, he can just cast it. If the game is changed such that he can't learn magic skills, and thus by correlation, detect magic, that would force him to use wands, scrolls, and rods. This may not be a bad thing, making those a bit more valuable/useful. But likewise, the fact that some spell casters don't have detect magic shouldn't be as big a deal either - they can also use these other objects to get that work done. One issue with a general magic skill is how it interacts or is limited by the others. I said in my first message that the earth/fire/wind/water have diametric forces, so one can reasonably limit a character to 3 spell casting skills. One would sort of envision that pure magic is in the middle of that circle - does that mean if someone chooses fire as their speciality, they now have 4 skills (fire, earth, air, general?) And what about someone that chooses general magic - do they now get all 5, since the skill they take is in the middle? A lot of this can perhaps be limited by making the other skills hard to gain exp in, etc, but that has to be balanced carefully - if too hard (like summoning), it perhaps becomes somewhat pointless. But if too easy, for example, a fire skill in that you can still kill things quickly, then the reduced exp may in fact not be much of a penalty. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Spell idea: Elemental skills
Hello. Replying to various mails at the same time. And idea I had was to change the current spell skills into 4 elemental skills - fire, water, air, earth. The praying skill would not get changed. Sounds good, if we can balance everything. The idea of a 5th skill, well, not totally sure it's nice. I'd rather see generic spells you can use with multiple skills. The issue you'd have with a 5th skill is how to level it - if it has enough spells to level correctly, why use another elemental? if it has only utilitarian spells, how can you level it? That could be useful in other regards - another thread had the idea of breaking weapons down, so the some classes can only use a limit of the weapons (so a mage can't pick up the battle axe) - if we followed an example of multiple combat skills, something like a dagger could have 'skill simple|complex' type of thing, but the battle axe just have 'skill complex' Or what about: * create 'axe weapons' as skill, and forbid mages to get it * put a cap to what mages can use in item power for weapons things like that? It could also be interesting, but harder to do, that some spells use multiple skills for the effect. Something like pool of chaos, which is really creating something from multiple elements, should perhaps take a look at the skills and adjust it accordingly - if a character is level 50 fire and level 5 earth air, that pool of chaos would really mostly be fire, with a little bit of earth and air (things like para elementals are also a mix of two elements) It could be fun, and I'd add: allow 2 players to combine their spell to generate a different spell - fire storm + wind = big spell (more damage? greater range? Also, you couldn't cast eg chaos fire+air if you only master fire+water :) Thoughts? I think such a scheme would make the wizards a bit more different - playing a wizard and not being able to cast ice spells could be quite a handicap (or fire or lightning and hopefully same for earth). And it makes some logical sense. And it gives more importance to wands/rods/staves. I never use charging scrolls, for instance, not worth the issue - now if you find a nice wand, you have a use for them! I would though seriously limit the rods, because they effectively have unlimited casting - the golden unicorn horn for instance is really powerful, allowing almost continuous healing. That seems too powerful to me. Nicolas -- http://nicolas.weeger.org [Petit site d'images, de textes, de code, bref de l'aléatoire !] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Spell idea: Elemental skills
That said, taking a quick look at the current spell list, and trying to categorize them: Level 1 Armour - earth/air (creating force around to reduce damage) Burning Hands - fire Create Missile - earth (creating solid substance) Detect Magic - ??? Icestorm - water Magic Bullet - earth Magic Missile - maybe air (electricity) Marking Rune - ??? (earth maybe - its on the ground?) Probe - ??? Slow - air (presume it is a slow gas?) - air density/wind Small Fireball - fire Small Lightning - air Small Snowstorm - water Level 2 Confusion - air (same basis as slow) Detect Monster - ??? Earth to Dust - earth Firebolt - fire Paralyze - air (same basis as slow) Poison Cloud - air (same basis as slow) - fire as a result of volcanism. Strength - ??? (maybe try to associate stats with the elements?) Summon Fog - air or water Summon Golem - probably earth Summon Pet Monster - should be unique for each element Hmm... I just remembered... a GameCube game Quest 64 uses the elements as basis for its magic A list they used can be found on various walkthru's. One link is: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/n64/file/198386/3288 They also categorized the monsters into elemental groups. Some new spells based on elements... Fire Lava Shower Wind Silence Water Hail Storm Earth Gravity Decrease mobility? Landslide Rock Shower Earthquake Rolling rock / Rockslide (similar to bolt spells) The fifth element ;-) classification as a non-elemental magic class strikes me as a good idea as opposed to forcing everything into elemental classes. Kevin ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Spell idea: Elemental skills
Another possibility would be to go for 5 skills: the 4 elements, plus sorcery, which would include things like Detect magic, mana bolts, and all the chaos stuff. It would start out much weaker than the others, which might be an interesting challenge for some. Re Earth: I used to have a spell on my server which essentially throws rocks at enemies. It was intended as a way to do physical damage with magic. I never balanced it enough for submitting, but it might be a reasonable idea. best, Lalo Martins -- So many of our dreams at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we summon the will, they soon become inevitable. - personal:http://lalo.hystericalraisins.net/ technical:http://www.hystericalraisins.net/ GNU: never give up freedom http://www.gnu.org/ ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
[crossfire] Spell idea: Elemental skills
If someone already brought this idea up before, my apologies. As has been discussed many times, the current spell skills really are not balanced, and there is sort of the problem that the wizard skills as defined may be very difficult to balance. And idea I had was to change the current spell skills into 4 elemental skills - fire, water, air, earth. The praying skill would not get changed. The pyromancy skill sort of corresponds to fire right now, with evocation wrapping up the rest. I think this is easier to balance - we already have fire/lightning/frost bolts (corresponding fore fire, air, water accordingly). Earth bolt might be a little odd, but things like magic bullet would fall into earth, and one could certain come up with some other spells (grenade would be like fireball - shoot something and it explodes into shards, etc). It also incorporates the summon elemental spells pretty nicely, as well as the create wall spells. Another nice thing is that this system does has conflicting elements - air is opposite to earth, water to fire. So one could see a system along the lines that if the character starts with fire, they can learn the air earth skills also, but never the water (and the air earth should be of lesser ability/quality than the fire skill). My thinking is 4 wizard classes would start with one of these skills as a major skill, and the two others and lesser quality skills. So in a sense, the 4 different elements are playable. One complication is that some spells should be generic - detect magic comes to mind, as well as perhaps identify and some others. A thought I had on this was to expand the skill field, so you could have something like 'skill fire|earth', and when it goes to find the skill, it parses that, and uses the best skill of the bunch. That could be useful in other regards - another thread had the idea of breaking weapons down, so the some classes can only use a limit of the weapons (so a mage can't pick up the battle axe) - if we followed an example of multiple combat skills, something like a dagger could have 'skill simple|complex' type of thing, but the battle axe just have 'skill complex' It could also be interesting, but harder to do, that some spells use multiple skills for the effect. Something like pool of chaos, which is really creating something from multiple elements, should perhaps take a look at the skills and adjust it accordingly - if a character is level 50 fire and level 5 earth air, that pool of chaos would really mostly be fire, with a little bit of earth and air (things like para elementals are also a mix of two elements) Thoughts? I think such a scheme would make the wizards a bit more different - playing a wizard and not being able to cast ice spells could be quite a handicap (or fire or lightning and hopefully same for earth). And it makes some logical sense. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
