Re: [crossfire] CVS - SVN conversion
Current status: CVS data is imported over, and I've renamed the files to be arch/trunk, client/trunk, etc. I've also made 1.x branches of the arch, client, maps, and server (at such time it becomes relevant, it could be done for jxclient and sounds). There are as arch/branches/1.x, client/branches/1.x, etc. Things that I still have yet to do, and will do tomorrow night: Use svn propset to make some virtual entries (link to gridarta for the edit, a link in server/lib/arch to link to archetypes), support for $Id$ in files. Also, should make some 'virtual' directories with links to all he relevant pieces. Eg, have a 'complete' or 'latest' directory which can get all the */trunk entries, so easy to get all those. Likewise, probably have a stable directory which links to the 1.x entries. That said, there is nothing preventing developers from checking out the SVN and actively using it - the things left to do above should not affect that. Mark Wedel wrote: Just a note/reminder of this change: Crossfire will switch from CVS to SVN this onday, Sept 18. What will happen: - Current CVS repository will remain available for read-only access, but no future changes will be made to that repository. The CVS repository will purely be for historical reasons (want to see what 1.6 looked like, etc.) Developer permissions will be updated to remove CVS write permissions. The crossfire page on sourceforge will also be updated so that CVS info will not appear. - The SVN repository will only import the head trunk, and not the tags or branches of the CVS repository. Future tags and branches will be made of course. - Only actively developed portions from CVS will be moved over. - Instead of having a copy of the editor in crossfire, we will link to the Gridarta project. - Some amount of cleanup in the repositories will be done - mainly, this means that some automatically generated files will not be included (flex files, collected archetypes/images/etc). The autoconf/automake files will stay in the repository, as it is general practice that code can be downloaded and then a simple configure run. - The server portion will be renamed from 'crossfire' to 'server' to more accurately describe what portion it is. - The organization will be server/trunk, client/trunk, client/branches, etc. After the fact: - The server and client will need some updating to get the version number so they can print that out as a build revision (instead of showing revision of each file). - Branches for 1.x will be made for the different components. - Likely some other cleanup will be necessary. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] CVS - SVN conversion
Mark Wedel wrote: Current status: CVS data is imported over, and I've renamed the files to be arch/trunk, client/trunk, etc. I've also made 1.x branches of the arch, client, maps, and server (at such time it becomes relevant, it could be done for jxclient and sounds). There are as arch/branches/1.x, client/branches/1.x, etc. snip So as of now, should we be committing to SVN as opposed to CVS, and using the 1.x branch and trunk as has been planned? :) Btw, one thought is it would probably be good to make some sort of clear documentation for the usage of the 1.x branch and trunk and the branching plan. Alex Schultz ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] stat loss and highly specialized players
On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 22:21:28 -0400, Andrew Fuchs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As what i could skim off of I440r__'s rant on IRC, players that are highly specialized (high level) in only a few skills can loose an unreasonable amount levels in skills that they are trying to develop from low levels. His general point was that it should take longer to gain levels, but players should lose less when they die. As mentioned a few days ago, the default experience table is rather bad, especially near the higher levels because you only need to increase your exp by 1 or 2% to gain a level. You always lose a reasonably fair amount of experience when you die (death penalty is 15% by default) but this translates to many levels in some cases. The problem is in the mapping between experience and levels, not in the death penalty. I think that I440r__ had some valid points: levels should not be gained so easily (at least for the medium and high levels) so that the death penalty would always represent a reasonable amount of levels lost. As I stated previously, I consider death_penalty_levels to be a bad workaround that encourages server admins to keep on using a bad exp_table instead of fixing the real problem. The new exp_table used on Metalforge is a bit better, but still far from perfect. By the way, I added a link to http://wiki.metalforge.net/doku.php/dev_todo:exp_table from http://wiki.metalforge.net/doku.php/dev_todo_new but I did not assign a priority to it. Maybe Mark or someone else can prioritize this? I would like to get this fixed in 1.x, but I understand that some server admins would prefer to keep their old exp_table until the bigger changes in 2.0 so I marked it as a 2.0 feature. But if we decide on a better exp_table, I would still like to add it to the 1.x branch but commented out like the exp_tables A and C. -Raphaël ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] stat loss and highly specialized players
It should apply to skills as well as overall levels. So under normal circumstances, I think that means no more than 3 levels lost from any skill and overall level. However, you could lose 3 levels from several different skills - for example, pyromancy, one handed weapons, praying, so it could seem like you are lose 12 levels (3 skilsl * 3 + 3 for overall level) I think that it is really rough to lose of three levels for skills that are not directly related to killing monsters. Several deaths in a row could conceivably nuke several key skills that are very hard to level. Skills like hiding, literacy, find traps, disarm traps all come to mind. I believe the player whose rant spawned this thread levels overall experience in one or two skills that are directly related to killing monsters. This means his character could conceivably revert to a new player in all but one or two skills after several deaths. I think the side effect of this is death will tend to put a virtual cap on the possibility of getting to high levels in some skills. It is not a real cap, but one that would require hours and hours of boring practice to raise those skills back to levels that might be comparable to what could be achieved had the player not died. In skills that are directly related to monster-killing, it is far, far easier to get back what you lost. This tends to be quite discouraging to a player, and can spawn a feeling that one is weaker at level blah than he was at level blah - 10. I do not know game mechanics well enough to suggest a solution, but I do understand the frustration, and experience myself from time to time. In my case, I just try harder not to die, but the game allows death so quickly some times that it just doesn't seem fair that you missed the life-saving action you already invoked on the client by less than a second. I also still believe there is an anomaly in the game with respect to overall experience at least. I have seen overall experience jump inexplicably from time to time where I cannot justify it by gameplay. An anomally like that that does not also affect individual skill experience would also tend to exaggerate the difference between one's overall level and the relative strength of the character. Rayvin ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] stat loss and highly specialized players
Raphaël Quinet [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As mentioned a few days ago, the default experience table is rather bad, especially near the higher levels because you only need to increase your exp by 1 or 2% to gain a level. You always lose a reasonably fair amount of experience when you die (death penalty is 15% by default) but this translates to many levels in some cases. The problem is in the mapping between experience and levels, not in the death penalty. I think that I440r__ had some valid points: levels should not be gained so easily (at least for the medium and high levels) so that the death penalty would always represent a reasonable amount of levels lost. Agreed. By the way, I added a link to http://wiki.metalforge.net/doku.php/dev_todo:exp_table A few notes on changing the exp table: To me, the shape of the one on that page you label Progressive 12% seems to have what I would consider to be the most reasonable shape for the exp curve, however one question which doesn't seem to have been considered yet, which I440r__ reminded me of by saying something to the meaning of I wouldn't mind the exp table being scaled up 4x, is do we want the exp table to top out at the same exp value as currently like in the proposed table? I personally think we might want to consider something like Progressive 15% in scale, except have the last levels taper upwards like in the Progressive 12% one, such that the level 115 exp would be a good bit above what it is currently. I think I may look into making a proposed chart some time. Also, we may want to look at tweaking individual monster exp in some cases. (there are probably many cases that are too generous or don't give enough) Another thing, we may want to consider making exp loss for skills something other than the plain percent. Overall should be by percent IMHO, however it may be worth considering a system, which wouldn't hurt low levels skills of a high level character as much (thus making the fact that non-combat skills are hard to gain, and making death hurtfulfor them, less of an issue). Alex Schultz ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] CVS - SVN conversion
CVS data is imported over, and I've renamed the files to be arch/trunk, client/trunk, etc. snip Thanks Mark for handling the conversion! Nicolas ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] stat loss and highly specialized players
On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 19:06:18 + (UTC), Alex Schultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Raphaël Quinet [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: By the way, I added a link to http://wiki.metalforge.net/doku.php/dev_todo:exp_table A few notes on changing the exp table: To me, the shape of the one on that page you label Progressive 12% seems to have what I would consider to be the most reasonable shape for the exp curve, however one question which doesn't seem to have been considered yet, which I440r__ reminded me of by saying something to the meaning of I wouldn't mind the exp table being scaled up 4x, is do we want the exp table to top out at the same exp value as currently like in the proposed table? I personally think we might want to consider something like Progressive 15% in scale, except have the last levels taper upwards like in the Progressive 12% one, such that the level 115 exp would be a good bit above what it is currently. I think I may look into making a proposed chart some time. Yes, the top level (115) could be significantly higher than it is now. Or we could use a curve that keeps it roughly at the same level and then adjust some monsters. In fact, I don't think that the amount of exp required for levels beyond 110 is very important to consider because this is not where most players should be. Those who want to reach the demigod status will do whatever is necessary to reach it anyway. :-) By the way, I made lots of other tests with other curves and I tried to figure out how these would map to my game experience. I did not put them all on the wiki because that would be abusing this nice resource, but maybe I will consider adding one or two new curves anyway. One of my favorites is similar to Progressive 12% but uses a 10% slope instead. It crosses the green curve (classic exp_table B) a bit before level 100. If you want to experiment with exp curves, I can send you my Gnumeric sheet. I can probably be read by Excel or OpenOffice if you don't have Gnumeric. Also, we may want to look at tweaking individual monster exp in some cases. (there are probably many cases that are too generous or don't give enough) Right. As I wrote in a previous thread, we should first decide on a new exp curve and then adjust the sources of exp (monsters) according to that curve, not the other way round. Using a progressive curve with a constant ratio between levels should make it much easier to adjust the sources of exp. Another thing, we may want to consider making exp loss for skills something other than the plain percent. Overall should be by percent IMHO, however it may be worth considering a system, which wouldn't hurt low levels skills of a high level character as much (thus making the fact that non-combat skills are hard to gain, and making death hurtfulfor them, less of an issue). No, this problem is caused by the current exp_table and death_penalty_levels: it limits the death penalty to 3 levels while the exp_table B (current default) requires only 1% between levels around level 100. As a result, a player who is level 100+ in some skills and only about level 10 in some non-combat skills will only lose 3% of the high-level skills (max 3 levels) but will lose the full 15% of the other skills. This is what is wrong: the current system artificially limits the loss for the skills in which the player has reached a high level, but still deals the full penalty to the other skills. If the system would be fair, there would be no death_penalty_levels limit and the player should lose 10 levels or more of the high-level skills (with the current exp_table B). This may sound much in terms of levels, but this only represents 15% of the exp. Then it becomes obvious that levels are gained (and lost) too easily near the high levels. As I wrote several times (do I sound like a broken record yet?), the correct way to fix this is to use a progressive exp_table and get rid of artificial limit caused by death_penalty_levels. If after doing that there are still concerns about the fact that losing 15% exp hurts too much, then the right thing to do would be to change the death penalty to 10% or so. Personally, I think that a 10% death penalty would be better than 15% (at least as long as there are some instant death traps in the game) and an exp_table that uses a constant ratio of +10% between levels would also be better. As a result, each death would cause the loss of approx. 1 level in each skill and there would not be this unfair difference between high and low levels. -Raphaël ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] stat loss and highly specialized players
On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 12:03:54 -0500, Kevin R. Bulgrien [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe the player whose rant spawned this thread levels overall experience in one or two skills that are directly related to killing monsters. This means his character could conceivably revert to a new player in all but one or two skills after several deaths. See my other message. One problem is that with the current exp_table and the artificial limit introduced by death_penalty_levels, you may only lose 3% of your high-level skills when you die, while you lose a full 15% of your low-level skills. So you currently lose exp up to five times slower in the high-level skills, which increases the difference over time and keeps the high-level skills relatively high while the other ones converge towards 0. This is especially obvious after multiple deaths. It took me a while to understand this phenomenon (although I just had to look at the exp_table and it should have been obvious) but now that I saw the problems caused by the current exp_table, I am trying hard to get it changed. It's a pity that death_penalty_levels hides the real problem and causes people to report the wrong problems or to propose other workarounds. This tends to be quite discouraging to a player, and can spawn a feeling that one is weaker at level blah than he was at level blah - 10. Sad, but not surprising if you lose exp in the low levels 5 times faster. I also still believe there is an anomaly in the game with respect to overall experience at least. I have seen overall experience jump inexplicably from time to time where I cannot justify it by gameplay. An anomally like that that does not also affect individual skill experience would also tend to exaggerate the difference between one's overall level and the relative strength of the character. Well, some monsters are worth quite a lot of exp points. If you kill them with the right skill, you can level up rather quickly. -Raphaël ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
