Re: [cryptography] Geoff Stone, Obama's Review Group
On 3/04/2014 11:42 am, John Young wrote: Stone's is a good statement which correctly places responsibility on three-branch policy and oversight of NSA, a military unit obliged to obey command of civilians however bizarre and politically self-serving. ODNI and NSA have been inviting a series of critics and journalists to discussions. Most have resulted in statements similar to Stone's. No such discussions were held after 9/11. Yes, this is similar to embedding. In exchange for access, they get to promise no reporting of actual .. news. Just opinion. They are now propaganda agents. Or? Incorrect to compare NSA to rogue, dirty work, civilian-led CIA which will attack the three branches if riled. That is the blackmail looming since 1947. Greater public oversight of the three-branches is needed, for they are the rogue, dirty work, civilian-led three LS, protecty by highest secrecy. If this can be helped by these invited discussions and statements, that would be a true advance beyond mere futile debate so far generated by shallow journalisitic reporting and polemics. Well maybe. The problems I see are not addressed below. Firstly, there is no sense that the person concerned looked at the lies told by the agency to their regulators, the Senate committee. Which is a court, and is therefore perjury. And any other deceptions, broadly, and any deceptions to the public. Secondly, I don't see any investigation here of have the NSA has breached commercial crypto or standards crypto. There is a wider debate here other than they had some legal pretext. There is an economy to deal with, and as the NSA weakens the commercial infrastructure, crooks move in. The question about interference in standards bodies is not a persnickety one, it goes to the heart of why there was no real defence against phishing from vendors, why the crap product we call security was ineffective against breaching, and why mass surveillance was a doddle. Thirdly there is no mention of the issue of sharing data with civilians. This is going on with around 20 agencies, yet it crosses the line that should never be crossed. And, that prohibition is so strong that it has to be very clearly a matter of national security. Which rules out drugs, ML, and indeed most domestic terrorist attacks. One might argue that 9/11 was an outlier, but nothing else was. It's all FBI business. Yes, noted this is dirty politics by the CIA, and the FBI has problems of their own, but the principle of separation of these powers exists for a reason. Fourthly: no mention of that separation. Release of far more of Snowden's documents will be needed for this to happen, hopefully the whole wad by a means that will put the technology in the hands of those who can understand it. So far, the journalists have released only the most useful to arouse indignation and refuse to release what could make a lasting difference. Not that journalists should be expected to make a lasting difference. Well. They're on an adrenaline rush. They probably have to out-do every prior release in order to get the attention of their increasingly jaded public. What they could use is a media manager to run it like a hollywood film or a political campaign. Which will further annoy us as we're after hard facts not more trips. At 10:56 PM 4/2/2014, you wrote: [ disclaimer, Geoff Stone is a friend of mine ] www.huffingtonpost.com/geoffrey-r-stone/what-i-told-the-nsa_b_5065447.html?utm_hp_ref=technologyir=Technology What I Told the NSA Because of my service on the President's Review Group last fall, which made recommendations to the president about NSA surveillance and related issues, the NSA invited me to speak today to the NSA staff at the NSA headquarters in Fort Meade, Maryland, about my work on the Review Group and my perceptions of the NSA. Here, in brief, is what I told them: From the outset, I approached my responsibilities as a member of the Review Group with great skepticism about the NSA. I am a long-time civil libertarian, a member of the National Advisory Council of the ACLU, and a former Chair of the Board of the American Constitution Society. To say I was skeptical about the NSA is, in truth, an understatement. I came away from my work on the Review Group with a view of the NSA that I found quite surprising. Not only did I find that the NSA had helped to thwart numerous terrorist plots against the United States and its allies in the years since 9/11, but I also found that it is an organization that operates with a high degree of integrity and a deep commitment to the rule of law. Like any organization dealing with extremely complex issues, the NSA on occasion made mistakes in the implementation of its authorities, but it invariably reported those mistakes upon discovering them and worked
Re: [cryptography] Geoff Stone, Obama's Review Group
Stone's is a good statement which correctly places responsibility on three-branch policy and oversight of NSA, a military unit obliged to obey command of civilians however bizarre and politically self-serving. ODNI and NSA have been inviting a series of critics and journalists to discussions. Most have resulted in statements similar to Stone's. No such discussions were held after 9/11. Incorrect to compare NSA to rogue, dirty work, civilian-led CIA which will attack the three branches if riled. That is the blackmail looming since 1947. Greater public oversight of the three-branches is needed, for they are the rogue, dirty work, civilian-led three LS, protecty by highest secrecy. If this can be helped by these invited discussions and statements, that would be a true advance beyond mere futile debate so far generated by shallow journalisitic reporting and polemics. Release of far more of Snowden's documents will be needed for this to happen, hopefully the whole wad by a means that will put the technology in the hands of those who can understand it. So far, the journalists have released only the most useful to arouse indignation and refuse to release what could make a lasting difference. Not that journalists should be expected to make a lasting difference. At 10:56 PM 4/2/2014, you wrote: [ disclaimer, Geoff Stone is a friend of mine ] www.huffingtonpost.com/geoffrey-r-stone/what-i-told-the-nsa_b_5065447.html?utm_hp_ref=technologyir=Technology What I Told the NSA Because of my service on the President's Review Group last fall, which made recommendations to the president about NSA surveillance and related issues, the NSA invited me to speak today to the NSA staff at the NSA headquarters in Fort Meade, Maryland, about my work on the Review Group and my perceptions of the NSA. Here, in brief, is what I told them: From the outset, I approached my responsibilities as a member of the Review Group with great skepticism about the NSA. I am a long-time civil libertarian, a member of the National Advisory Council of the ACLU, and a former Chair of the Board of the American Constitution Society. To say I was skeptical about the NSA is, in truth, an understatement. I came away from my work on the Review Group with a view of the NSA that I found quite surprising. Not only did I find that the NSA had helped to thwart numerous terrorist plots against the United States and its allies in the years since 9/11, but I also found that it is an organization that operates with a high degree of integrity and a deep commitment to the rule of law. Like any organization dealing with extremely complex issues, the NSA on occasion made mistakes in the implementation of its authorities, but it invariably reported those mistakes upon discovering them and worked conscientiously to correct its errors. The Review Group found no evidence that the NSA had knowingly or intentionally engaged in unlawful or unauthorized activity. To the contrary, it has put in place carefully-crafted internal proceduresto ensure that it operates within the bounds of its lawful authority. This is not to say that the NSA should have had all of the authorities it was given. The Review Group found that many of the programs undertaken by the NSA were highly problematic and much in need of reform. But the responsibility for directing the NSA to carry out those programs rests not with the NSA, but with the Executive Branch, the Congress, and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which authorized those programs -- sometimes without sufficient attention to the dangers they posed to privacy and civil liberties. The NSA did its job -- it implemented the authorities it was given. It gradually became apparent to me that in the months after Edward Snowden began releasing information about the government's foreign intelligence surveillance activities, the NSA was being severely -- and unfairly -- demonized by its critics. Rather than being a rogue agency that was running amok in disregard of the Constitution and laws of the United States, the NSA was doing its job. It pained me to realize that the hard-working, dedicated, patriotic employees of the NSA, who were often working for far less pay than they could have earned in the private sector because they were determined to help protect their nation from attack, were being castigated in the press for the serious mistakes made, not by them, but by Presidents, the Congress, and the courts. Of course, I was only following orders is not always an excuse. But in no instance was the NSA implementing a program that was so clearly illegal or unconstitutional that it would have been justified in refusing to perform the functions assigned to it
Re: [cryptography] Geoff Stone, Obama's Review Group - Part 2
The CIA is the principal customer of NSA products outside the military. When global cyber spying Cybercom was proposed NSA did not want to do it, claiming it exceeded NSA's military mission. However, the pols, and CIA, wanted that very excess, in particular for spying inside the US, ostensibly banned for the CIA but now needed for terrorists inside. CIA (long FBI opponents) thought FBI could not cope with inside terrorists, using 9/11 as an example, and advocated NSA involvement with its much greater technical capability, but more importantly, its military-privileged secrecy not susceptible to full congressional oversight, courts and FOIA. The joint CIA-NSA Special Collection Service (SCS) has been doing for decades what NSA is now alone accused of doing: CIA provided the targets, NSA did the technical collection from those global stations identified by xKeyscore (most in embassies or nearby). What is bizarre is how little CIA is mentioned in news furor about NSA, as if NSA did its work in isolation from the IC and without oversight of the 3 branches. SCS also does burglaries, code snatches, decrypts, doc drops, stings, ploys, blackmail, the panoply of CIA operations. The increased civilian target panoply bestowed upon NSA came from CIA demands channeled through ODNI. Reviewing what little has been released of the Snowden documents they are quite similar to what SCS has been doing with the addition of the US as target. FISA had to be rejiggered for the US domain. Most national leaders, like POTUS, are considered to be military commanders thus fair game for NSA along with CIA. Nothing exceptional about the recent revelations of spying on chiefs of state. NSA technical collection capability was developed for the military, not civilian use. Now expanded to CIA full dominance territory. FISA had to be rejiggered for using it against civilians. And is still being rejiggered these days. NSA's recent attempt to slough off Cybercom and return to its military mission, has been rejected by the civilian overseers following CIA guidance and fear-mongering of civilians, especially those inside the US. The last thing CIA and its supporters want is a revelation of its manipulation of civilian leaders institutionalized by the 1947 National Security Act (also opposed by the military). - At 10:56 PM 4/2/2014, DG wrote on cypherpunks: [ disclaimer, Geoff Stone is a friend of mine ] www.huffingtonpost.com/geoffrey-r-stone/what-i-told-the-nsa_b_5065447.html?utm_hp_ref=technologyir=Technology What I Told the NSA Because of my service on the President's Review Group last fall, which made recommendations to the president about NSA surveillance and related issues, the NSA invited me to speak today to the NSA staff at the NSA headquarters in Fort Meade, Maryland, about my work on the Review Group and my perceptions of the NSA. Here, in brief, is what I told them: From the outset, I approached my responsibilities as a member of the Review Group with great skepticism about the NSA. I am a long-time civil libertarian, a member of the National Advisory Council of the ACLU, and a former Chair of the Board of the American Constitution Society. To say I was skeptical about the NSA is, in truth, an understatement. I came away from my work on the Review Group with a view of the NSA that I found quite surprising. Not only did I find that the NSA had helped to thwart numerous terrorist plots against the United States and its allies in the years since 9/11, but I also found that it is an organization that operates with a high degree of integrity and a deep commitment to the rule of law. Like any organization dealing with extremely complex issues, the NSA on occasion made mistakes in the implementation of its authorities, but it invariably reported those mistakes upon discovering them and worked conscientiously to correct its errors. The Review Group found no evidence that the NSA had knowingly or intentionally engaged in unlawful or unauthorized activity. To the contrary, it has put in place carefully-crafted internal proceduresto ensure that it operates within the bounds of its lawful authority. This is not to say that the NSA should have had all of the authorities it was given. The Review Group found that many of the programs undertaken by the NSA were highly problematic and much in need of reform. But the responsibility for directing the NSA to carry out those programs rests not with the NSA, but with the Executive Branch, the Congress, and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which authorized those programs -- sometimes without sufficient attention to the dangers they posed to privacy and civil liberties. The NSA did its job -- it implemented the authorities it was given. It gradually became apparent to me that in the months
Re: [cryptography] Geoff Stone, Obama's Review Group
Message du 03/04/14 16:54 De : Cari Machet Not that journalists should be expected to make a lasting difference. WTF? this shit was posted on huffington post probably for those without ad blocker there was ad with bewbs on it next to the text one more thing why do you assume to know the minds of the people that own the snowden data - they are capitalists - that is all Do capitalists upset you? ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
