Re: [css-d] ::first-word pseudo-element (and other pseudo-ideas)

[Freelance Traveller]

On Sat, 11 Dec 2010 15:24:52 -0800, Rick Gordon 
wrote:

>Understandably, sensitivities concerning ethnocentricity can be 
>triggered within such a discussion, but how about:

>1) A definition which will work among the greatest majority of 
>linguistic cases -- languages that have a commonly accepted range of 
>word delimiters (which I think might include all European and Semitic 
>languages, or other languages written with Roman/Cyrillic/Greek/Semitic 
>alphabets), and make that a default, which might be finessed with an 
>explicit language tag, which might modify the default delimiter list.

An explicit declaration of the language would, in my opinion, be a good
idea on general principles. Admittedly, I don't do it on my own pages,
but I *can* see where an explicit language setting might make it easier
for rendering engines or other programs that might want to process text
in language-relevant ways to make appropriate assumptions regarding how
the source language data should be interpreted.

>2) Allow for the use of specific word-break and work-inclusion tags that 
>would work in any lingusitic context, or where an override is required.

For this, Unicode points 8203 and 8204, the zero-width space and the
zero-width non-joiner, might be possible candidates.  Add these to the
list of allowed "word" delimiters, and existing algorithms need not be
significantly modified.

In any case, the problem becomes getting people to use such tools
consistently; in the messages that Gabriele quoted, Thai was explicitly
mentioned, and it is simply not "natural" for a native Thai speaker/
writer to think in terms of breaking up his/her writing into discrete
words, even with something like the zwnj.  I don't believe that Thai is
unique in that respect; the same may be true of many Southeast Asian,
East Asian, and *nesian languages that have not adopted western or
Indian scripts.


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Re: [css-d] ::first-word pseudo-element (and other pseudo-ideas)

[Rick Gordon]

Understandably, sensitivities concerning ethnocentricity can be triggered 
within such a discussion, but how about:

1) A definition which will work among the greatest majority of linguistic cases 
-- languages that have a commonly accepted range of word delimiters (which I 
think might include all European and Semitic languages, or other languages 
written with Roman/Cyrillic/Greek/Semitic alphabets), and make that a default, 
which might be finessed with an explicit language tag, which might modify the 
default delimiter list.

2) Allow for the use of specific word-break and work-inclusion tags that would 
work in any lingusitic context, or where an override is required.

Rick Gordon

--

On 12/11/10 at 11:13 PM +0100, Gabriele Romanato wrote in a message entitled
"[css-d] ::first-word pseudo-element (and other pseudo-ideas":

>I'm following an interesting discussion on www-style about new ideas for new 
>pseudo-elements in CSS3. Latest entries concern the ::first-word 
>pseudo-element. I quote the most relevant ones:
>
>--
>
>Pierre Bertet wrote:
>
>>But the ::first-letter already do this, defining a "letter", wich is
>>not very clear too. To clarify this, the CSS3 Selectors spec refers to
>>the Unicode Standard Annex #29 [1].
>>This document seems very complex to me, but it also contains a "Word
>>Boundaries" section, which seems to defines exactly that.
>
>>So my questions are:
>>This section could it not be used to clarify what a "word" is?
>
>The extensive caveats in the notes to that section of TUS Annex #29 would need 
>to be taken into account. Word boundary identification needs to be tailored 
>for many languages, and the basic Unicode mechanism only aims to provide 'as 
>workable a default as possible'.
>
>Words -- and syllables, which present similar issues for selecting appropriate 
>text elements for styling -- are units of spoken language that may or may not 
>be easily isolated as units in written language, depending on particular 
>writing systems as applied to particular languages. In some systems, e.g. 
>Thai, word selection is only possible with dictionary support.
>
>
>
>So the point is that it doesn't exist a clear definition of word (in its 
>textual representation, but, ouch, also in linguistics) and for that reason 
>this proposal has been rejected. But there are other interesting ideas of this 
>sort, such as:
>
>1. nth-line()
>Pseudo-class. It should select the nth-line of a block. But is there a 
> definition of line that could be accepted?
>
>2. nth-word()
>Pseudo-class. See the objections above.
>
>
>The point is that we all have good ideas and hints on CSS, but the sad truth 
>is that on www-style they don't pass the first reader comments.
>Anyway, I encourage you on following these discussions because there's always 
>something new to learn.
>
>Good night, (my time, Rome CET)
>
>G. :-)
>
>http://www.css-zibaldone.com
>http://www.css-zibaldone.com/test/  (English)
>http://www.css-zibaldone.com/articles/  (English)
>http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/  (English)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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-- 
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EMERALD VALLEY GRAPHICS AND CONSULTING
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[css-d] ::first-word pseudo-element (and other pseudo-ideas)

[Gabriele Romanato]

I'm following an interesting discussion on www-style about new ideas  
for new pseudo-elements in CSS3. Latest entries concern the ::first- 
word pseudo-element. I quote the most relevant ones:


--

Pierre Bertet wrote:


But the ::first-letter already do this, defining a "letter", wich is
not very clear too. To clarify this, the CSS3 Selectors spec refers to
the Unicode Standard Annex #29 [1].
This document seems very complex to me, but it also contains a “Word
Boundaries” section, which seems to defines exactly that.



So my questions are:
This section could it not be used to clarify what a “word” is?


The extensive caveats in the notes to that section of TUS Annex #29  
would need to be taken into account. Word boundary identification  
needs to be tailored for many languages, and the basic Unicode  
mechanism only aims to provide 'as workable a default as possible'.


Words -- and syllables, which present similar issues for selecting  
appropriate text elements for styling -- are units of spoken language  
that may or may not be easily isolated as units in written language,  
depending on particular writing systems as applied to particular  
languages. In some systems, e.g. Thai, word selection is only possible  
with dictionary support.




So the point is that it doesn't exist a clear definition of word (in  
its textual representation, but, ouch, also in linguistics) and for  
that reason this proposal has been rejected. But there are other  
interesting ideas of this sort, such as:


1. nth-line()
Pseudo-class. It should select the nth-line of a block. But is  
there a definition of line that could be accepted?


2. nth-word()
Pseudo-class. See the objections above.


The point is that we all have good ideas and hints on CSS, but the sad  
truth is that on www-style they don't pass the first reader comments.
Anyway, I encourage you on following these discussions because there's  
always something new to learn.


Good night, (my time, Rome CET)

G. :-)

http://www.css-zibaldone.com
http://www.css-zibaldone.com/test/  (English)
http://www.css-zibaldone.com/articles/  (English)
http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/  (English)








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Re: [css-d] Web development without Internet Explorer

[John D]

> From: da...@dmcentral.net

> So IMHO until MS makes IE 100% compliant or ships with alternative browswers 
> pre-instaled, it's a losing battle.
> 

Things will definitely change next year when Google comes out with its own 
operating system



There won't be any choice for people (they say you can have any browser you 
want as long as it is Chrome!) but it will certainly make Microsoft change its 
tactics!

hth

  
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Re: [css-d] Make text bottom-align?

[David Laakso]

On 12/11/10 1:44 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote:


I believe what the OP is after is "inline-block":

--

Thierry







After two months of guessing at what the OP is after today I no longer care.

~d

--
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Re: [css-d] Make text bottom-align?

[Felix Miata]

On 2010/12/11 17:20 (GMT+0530) Chetan Crasta composed:


Btw, the CSS spec takes into account the fact that monitors'
pixel-densities differ. This is why, according to the spec, px is a
relative length unit.


The latest spec draft defines 1px as equal to 0.75pt, contorting the px into 
a physical unit. This is under current discussion on the www-style mailing 
list on thread titled "[CSS21] 4.3.2 Lengths (reference pixel?)".

--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
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Re: [css-d] Make text bottom-align?

[Chetan Crasta]

>> Not using tables for layout is not a "religious matter". It has been
>> about a decade since tables for layout have been deprecated. See
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tableless_web_design
>
> While true, that's not stopped their use, or promotion:
> http://developer.apple.com/internet/webcontent/bestwebdev.html

Wow! I never thought that the makers of Safari would have an article
advocating tables for layout on their website! They had the good
manners to say that one should try CSS first, though. :)

Yeah, CSS is no magic bullet, but given the choice between hacking a
layout table and hacking CSS, I'd go with CSS. No web archeology for
me! :)

~Chetan
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Re: [css-d] Make text bottom-align?

[Felix Miata]

On 2010/12/11 22:24 (GMT+0530) Chetan Crasta composed:


Not using tables for layout is not a "religious matter". It has been
about a decade since tables for layout have been deprecated. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tableless_web_design


While true, that's not stopped their use, or promotion: 
http://developer.apple.com/internet/webcontent/bestwebdev.html

--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
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Re: [css-d] Make text bottom-align?

[Thierry Koblentz]

> Chetan Crasta wrote:
> 
> > I have made an example of the design here:
> > http://roughtech.com/t/testali.html
> >
> > It uses CSS only.

I believe what the OP is after is "inline-block":


As a site note, "table-cell" would work too, but it requires more markup

--
Regards,
Thierry
www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz





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Re: [css-d] Web development without Internet Explorer

[G.Sørtun]

On 11.12.2010 15:49, David Laakso wrote:


For those who work for an  employer, or have a client, who is also 
progressive but require for whatever reasons to still hit Internet 
Explorer might a viable alternative be to feed Redmond desktop content 
in much the same manner as one might for mobile?


Hmmm, try this page...

...in IE6. That should do nicely when it comes to backward compatibility 
for forward looking employers, clients and coders, and the method used 
is described in same page.


regards
Georg

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Re: [css-d] Make text bottom-align?

[Chetan Crasta]

@Jukka: Like I mentioned in my earlier email, I thoroughly tested the
solution. I doubt there would be any problems integrating it with any
kind of layout.
Take a closer look at the solution, there is only one px declaration,
for font size (in the container div). This was used for convenience
only, it has no bearing on the flexibility of the design, ems can be
used if needed.

Not using tables for layout is not a "religious matter". It has been
about a decade since tables for layout have been deprecated. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tableless_web_design

~Chetan
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Re: [css-d] Problem with dropdowns

[Chetan Crasta]

The ">"  (eg ul>li ) is the symbol for child selector. It only selects
child elements, not grand-child, great grand-child etc. Whereas the
simple space eg( ul li ), called the descendant selector, selects all
descendant elements --  grand-child, great grand-child etc.

~Chetan

On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Brian Jones  wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 5:52 AM, Chetan Crasta  wrote:
>> Made a number of changes to the CSS. You can see the fixed page here:
>> http://roughtech.com/t/dropdown.html
>>
>> The changes I made to the CSS can be seen here:
>> http://roughtech.com/t/dropdown_files/dropdown.css
>> I have commented the changes as "my change".
>>
>> ~Chetan
>>
>
> Thanks Cheatan. Good stuff. What does it mean when you use the less
> than symbol like this ul.dropdown>li>a
>
>
>
> --
> -bdot
> "There are only 10 kinds of people in this world. Those who understand
> binary and those who don't"
>
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Re: [css-d] Make text bottom-align?

[Jukka K. Korpela]

Chetan Crasta wrote:


I have made an example of the design here:
http://roughtech.com/t/testali.html

It uses CSS only.


It seems to use the positioning technique I outlined and demonstrated, but 
it contains lots of features quite independent of the issue at hand, such as 
odd line heights. In fact it fails to satisfy the requirement, since the 
bottom of the text at the left and at the right are not aligned. Line-height 
of 1.87em is grossly too large for any normal texts; for a short paragraph, 
it creates the impression of two quite separate lines - and prevents the 
desired alignment.



It works in all modern browsers and IE6 and IE7. I
have tested it with different fonts and font sizes.


I won't argue about that, though the code on your example page uses 
px-valued font size and dimensions (which is not inherent in the technique).


The problems of CSS layout usually don't emerge in simple cases (though as 
mentioned, you have summoned some of them). When inserted into a larger 
context, possibly with interaction with other CSS rules, and especially when 
applied to achieve "semi-flexible" layout, problems start popping up. By 
"semi-flexible" I mean things like making some elements (set side by side 
horizontally) occupy given widths (in pixels or em units for example) and 
one of them consume all the rest of the available width. Having struggled 
with such issues, people usually end up with making the layout more rigid 
than it needs to be.



Using a table would not be appropriate. Tables are not for layout.


I don't want to comment on religious matters as such, but I'd just like to 
point out that the most natural approach to the desired alignment in CSS 
would be to set display: table-cell and vertical-align: bottom (or 
text-bottom) for the two elements etc. While that approach does not work due 
to lack of sufficient support, some of us might be willing the use the HTML 
equivalent of the technique, possibly using CSS for part of the job (when 
CSS features are well supported).


--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/ 


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Re: [css-d] Problem with dropdowns

[Brian Jones]

On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 5:52 AM, Chetan Crasta  wrote:
> Made a number of changes to the CSS. You can see the fixed page here:
> http://roughtech.com/t/dropdown.html
>
> The changes I made to the CSS can be seen here:
> http://roughtech.com/t/dropdown_files/dropdown.css
> I have commented the changes as "my change".
>
> ~Chetan
>

Thanks Cheatan. Good stuff. What does it mean when you use the less
than symbol like this ul.dropdown>li>a



-- 
-bdot
"There are only 10 kinds of people in this world. Those who understand
binary and those who don't"
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Re: [css-d] Web development without Internet Explorer

[David Laakso]

On 12/11/10 8:27 AM, Gabriele Romanato wrote:


http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/2010/12/web-development-without-internet.html 



the firm I work for has already embraced my ideals. hope many more 
will join us.





It is all good:-) .

For those who work for an  employer, or have a client, who is also 
progressive but require for whatever reasons to still hit Internet 
Explorer might a viable alternative be to feed Redmond desktop content 
in much the same manner as one might for mobile?


Fwiw, please view signature link [its a little crude at the moment:-) 
but you'll get the idea] in IE /6.


Best,
Bill and Melinda

--
http://chelseacreekstudio.com/

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Re: [css-d] Web development without Internet Explorer

[David McGlone]

On Saturday, December 11, 2010 08:27:37 am Gabriele Romanato wrote:
> Hi.
> I'm just seeking volunteers for a radical change in how we think
> coding in general.
> I respect the backward-compatibilty point of view but, nonetheless, I
> can't say it's Gospel.
> 
> hope this would be useful for a stimulating discussion:
> 
> http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/2010/12/web-development-without-internet.html
> 
> the firm I work for has already embraced my ideals. hope many more
> will join us.

It's way easier said than done. Most computer users either don't care or don't 
know that there are alternatives to IE. They just stick to what was thrown in 
front of them, which is pre-installed IE.

So IMHO until MS makes IE 100% compliant or ships with alternative browswers 
pre-instaled, it's a losing battle.

-- 
Blessings
David M.
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[css-d] Web development without Internet Explorer

[Gabriele Romanato]

Hi.
I'm just seeking volunteers for a radical change in how we think  
coding in general.
I respect the backward-compatibilty point of view but, nonetheless, I  
can't say it's Gospel.


hope this would be useful for a stimulating discussion:

http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/2010/12/web-development-without-internet.html

the firm I work for has already embraced my ideals. hope many more  
will join us.


HTH


http://www.css-zibaldone.com
http://www.css-zibaldone.com/test/  (English)
http://www.css-zibaldone.com/articles/  (English)
http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/  (English)








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Re: [css-d] menu test

[David Laakso]

On 12/11/10 6:45 AM, Erik Visser wrote:

Please give me your remarks.
And how this menu behaves in the different browsers and/or 
pplatforms you use.


Thanks, Erik




http://beta.ottermeerhoeve.nl/index.php







Always a pleasure to land on a page with primary content set at default:-) .
O.K. Safari and Camino and SeaMonkey. However, this line beneath the 
menu not seen, and is clipped in landing in Opera, FF, IE 8/7/6:


http://beta.ottermeerhoeve.nl/familieavontuur.php>">Ook in 2011
Ottermeer Famlieavontuur !

If of concern, in FF the long-words walkout the menu with + font-scaling 
[same in IE 8/7/6 at text-size "largest."]



You may want to flip the font-family so Macs get Helvetica and PCs get 
Arial.


Best,
~d

--
http://chelseacreekstudio.com/

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Re: [css-d] menu test

[Erik Visser]

David Laakso schreef op 12/11/10 12:49 PM:

On 12/11/10 6:45 AM, Erik Visser wrote:

Please give me your remarks.
And how this menu behaves in the different browsers and/or pplatforms 
you use.


Thanks, Erik


uri, Erik?


eeehhh..

http://beta.ottermeerhoeve.nl/index.php


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Re: [css-d] Make text bottom-align?

[Chetan Crasta]

> Kidding aside, one man's 1920 (16" laptop; 142 DPI) could easily be narrower
> than another's 1280 (19" desktop; 86 DPI). Designers really ought to quit
> thinking in px. Px sizes bear no predictable correlation to the physical
> world, and thus to legibility or appropriate line lengths.

Agreed.
Btw, the CSS spec takes into account the fact that monitors'
pixel-densities differ. This is why, according to the spec, px is a
relative length unit. One CSS px is 1/96th of an inch *on the display
screen*. Sadly, Microsoft and all the other browser makers have
ignored the spec.

~Chetan
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Re: [css-d] menu test

[David Laakso]

On 12/11/10 6:45 AM, Erik Visser wrote:

Please give me your remarks.
And how this menu behaves in the different browsers and/or pplatforms 
you use.


Thanks, Erik


uri, Erik?

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[css-d] menu test

[Erik Visser]

A client wants elliptical menu buttons with Comic Sans font,

Please give me your remarks.
And how this menu behaves in the different browsers and/or pplatforms 
you use.



Thanks, Erik
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Re: [css-d] Make text bottom-align?

[Felix Miata]

On 2010/12/11 16:54 (GMT+0530) Chetan Crasta composed:


Yeah, people with monitors wider than 1024 shouldn't be maximizing
their browsers.



Kidding :)


Kidding aside, one man's 1920 (16" laptop; 142 DPI) could easily be narrower 
than another's 1280 (19" desktop; 86 DPI). Designers really ought to quit 
thinking in px. Px sizes bear no predictable correlation to the physical 
world, and thus to legibility or appropriate line lengths. Em/rem is/will be 
the way to go.

--
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words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
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Re: [css-d] Make text bottom-align?

[Chetan Crasta]

> That's nice I guess:-) . Have you considered that some of us are on a
> monitor wider than 1024?

Yeah, people with monitors wider than 1024 shouldn't be maximizing
their browsers.

Kidding :)
Then one should add a max-width of around 40em. Or one can just remove
the max-width and give div#headingsanddescription a width of 40em.

And before you say it; No, I have no consideration for those using IE6
which doesn't support max-width and min-width. They should just
upgrade or use Google Chrome Frame :)

~Chetan
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Re: [css-d] Make text bottom-align?

[David Laakso]

On 12/11/10 5:58 AM, Chetan Crasta wrote:

None taken :) Thanks for pointing that out.

I have now given the div#headingsanddescription a min-width of 37em
which should prevent overlapping at large font sizes.

~Chetan


http://roughtech.com/t/testali.html





That's nice I guess:-) . Have you considered that some of us are on a 
monitor wider than 1024?

~d


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Re: [css-d] Problem with dropdowns

[Chetan Crasta]

Found some more things that needed fixing. Fixed them now.

~Chetan

On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Chetan Crasta  wrote:
> Made a number of changes to the CSS. You can see the fixed page here:
> http://roughtech.com/t/dropdown.html
>
> The changes I made to the CSS can be seen here:
> http://roughtech.com/t/dropdown_files/dropdown.css
> I have commented the changes as "my change".
>
> ~Chetan
>
> On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Brian Jones  wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm working on this dropdown nav
>> (http://www.bleusolutions.com/testing/dropdown.html) and I can't seem
>> to get the text in sub menus to fit correctly. I also want to get the
>> flyout menu to line up directly next to the dropdown menu.
>> Any help would be greatly appreciated
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> --
>> -bdot
>> "There are only 10 kinds of people in this world. Those who understand
>> binary and those who don't"
>> __
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>>
>
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Re: [css-d] Make text bottom-align?

[Chetan Crasta]

None taken :) Thanks for pointing that out.

I have now given the div#headingsanddescription a min-width of 37em
which should prevent overlapping at large font sizes.

~Chetan

On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 4:05 PM, David Laakso
 wrote:
> On 12/11/10 5:10 AM, Chetan Crasta wrote:
>>
>> I have made an example of the design here:
>> http://roughtech.com/t/testali.html
>>
>>
>> ~Chetan
>>
>
> No offense intended:-) but beware the cross-over with font-scaling.
>
> Best,
> ~d
>
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> :: desktop and mobile ::
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Re: [css-d] Problem with dropdowns

[Chetan Crasta]

Made a number of changes to the CSS. You can see the fixed page here:
http://roughtech.com/t/dropdown.html

The changes I made to the CSS can be seen here:
http://roughtech.com/t/dropdown_files/dropdown.css
I have commented the changes as "my change".

~Chetan

On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Brian Jones  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm working on this dropdown nav
> (http://www.bleusolutions.com/testing/dropdown.html) and I can't seem
> to get the text in sub menus to fit correctly. I also want to get the
> flyout menu to line up directly next to the dropdown menu.
> Any help would be greatly appreciated
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> -bdot
> "There are only 10 kinds of people in this world. Those who understand
> binary and those who don't"
> __
> css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org]
> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
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>
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Re: [css-d] Make text bottom-align?

[David Laakso]

On 12/11/10 5:10 AM, Chetan Crasta wrote:

I have made an example of the design here: http://roughtech.com/t/testali.html


~Chetan



No offense intended:-) but beware the cross-over with font-scaling.

Best,
~d

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Re: [css-d] Make text bottom-align?

[Chetan Crasta]

I have made an example of the design here: http://roughtech.com/t/testali.html

It uses CSS only. It works in all modern browsers and IE6 and IE7. I
have tested it with different fonts and font sizes.

Using a table would not be appropriate. Tables are not for layout.

~Chetan
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