Re: [css-d] A Fairly Complex Design Complete, wishing to implement using all CSS

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Marc Funaro wrote:

> What about the rounded corners that make up the what and light green 
> areas? Do I still need to use images to create that effect?  I'm 
> really not sure where to start with this Photoshop file... I just 
> don't know "the process". It sounds like I need to export practically
>  each layer as a separate image, and then place each "by hand" Is
>  this correct?

Focus on each, main, container, and give it the top rounded-corner part
as a non-repeated background-image. Use the proper background-color on
the container, and add a div (or other block-element) at the bottom to
carry the bottom rounded-corner part.

Repeat process/source-code for the white 'Body Content' column.

> And for the background, simply set the color of the entire background
>  of the page to the dark green?

In short: yes.

> Is this all done "by hand", or is there such a thing as a "drag and 
> drop" type of CSS editor that would allow me to place images in a 
> space and work with them visually?  Not wanting to cut corners, just 
> work most efficiently if there are better tools out there for me than
> TopStyle or StyleMaster...

No suitable html/css "drag and drop" editor capable of doing a good job
and provide compact and efficient source-code/CSS yet - AFAIK.

I arrange my source-code on 'hand coding' level - using Opera in
'accessibility - text browser' style mode, and rarely ever bother to
look at it in a graphical browser until the source-code is around 90%
finished.

I use Notepad for CSS - *because* it doesn't disturb my creativity by
doing anything on its own, and watch things take shape directly in the
full-blown browser of choice - which to me is Opera 9beta at the moment.
Firefox, Safari and IE6 are also up on screens, in case I want a
"preview" in any of those.

>> [... ]In short: avoid "divitis".
> 
> Again, I understand this in theory... I have read a great deal, but I
>  think my biggest issue at the moment is "where to start" - if a 
> direct export of the entire template from Photoshop is not the way to
>  go, or if there's not an "easier way" to split out each layer in PS,
>  then what are the recommended next steps, starting with just a .psd 
> file?

Skip all "design stages", as you already have a design. Keep that design
in your head, and move on.
Choose a Doctype - preferably a Strict one, and start "sketching"
the layout as well sequenced source-code.

The usual html basics, followed by...

1: Header container-div [
include all images, but don't style any of them yet.
]

2: Main container-div [
3: Body Content container-div (fill in some paragraphs here)
4: Added stuff container-div (the left-side one. Fill in some stuff here
- preferably in an unordered list since that's what the present content
seems to fit best into.)
]

5: Footer container-div (which can also carry the rounded-corner part of
Main Container).

Those 5 container-divs can then be roughly dimensioned, floated, cleared
where necessary, and trimmed into positions - using in-flow and
'negative margins' methods.

That's the basics, but it will look "pretty rough" to begin with :-)

A few more elements must be added for styling, but leave them out until
you run out of style-options with the basic ones. Never mind the
details... for now.

regards
Georg
-- 
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [css-d] A Fairly Complex Design Complete, wishing to implement using all CSS

[Marc Funaro]

>   That's a pretty ordinary 'fixed-width 2-column layout 
>   with header and footer', well suited for floats and 
>   negative margins...
>   
>   No need for that exact layout-method, but it is one of 
>   the most robust methods around and almost tailor-made 
>   to your design.

What about the rounded corners that make up the what and light green areas?
Do I still need to use images to create that effect?  I'm really not sure
where to start with this Photoshop file... I just don't know "the process".
It sounds like I need to export practically each layer as a separate image,
and then place each "by hand" Is this correct?

>   Height or amount of content is not a problem. 
>   Container-height will adjust to content by simply 
>   styling them to do so. That's part of the 'negative 
>   margin' method, btw.

That sounds like exactly what I need, for sure.
>   
>   The header is the most tricky part, I think, but not at 
>   all difficult to create. Four images floated left 
>   inside one div#header, and lined up / positioned with 
>   margins on each image.
>   No need for divs around images - except maybe for the 
>   leftmost one for cross-browser reliable result.

And for the background, simply set the color of the entire background of the
page to the dark green?

>   
>   Leftmost image in header should overlap the left 
>   column, which is easiest done by giving it a negative 
>   margin-bottom, and layering it higher (with position: 
>   relative) than the following div#main-container.
>   Pushing the left column down by a 'padding-top' makes 
>   the illusion perfect.

Is this all done "by hand", or is there such a thing as a "drag and drop"
type of CSS editor that would allow me to place images in a space and work
with them visually?  Not wanting to cut corners, just work most efficiently
if there are better tools out there for me than TopStyle or StyleMaster...

>   
>   
>   
>   Never mind cutting images to exact dimensions and 
>   putting them in divs.
>   The 'negative margin' method allows for pixel-perfect 
>   positioning and dimensioning/overlapping as long as 
>   you're dealing with images.
>   
>   Using paragraphs for text and lists for navigation, 
>   will give you plenty of elements to style without 
>   adding a lot of divs.
>   In short: avoid "divitis".

Again, I understand this in theory... I have read a great deal, but I think
my biggest issue at the moment is "where to start" - if a direct export of
the entire template from Photoshop is not the way to go, or if there's not
an "easier way" to split out each layer in PS, then what are the recommended
next steps, starting with just a .psd file?

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Re: [css-d] A Fairly Complex Design Complete, wishing to implement using all CSS

[Jan Brasna]

> "should I start over with the slicing, and if so, what should I do different?"

Umm, sorry for saying that Marc, but yes, you should do it again. What 
you sent is just a bunch of positioned sliced pieces of images. It's 
merely table based layout, made of absolutely positioned pieces like 
#Table_01, #Base-01_, ..., #Base-28_, #Right_Spacer etc. ...

This is not the way to do it, I'm afraid you should return back to 
literature to get a bigger overview of standards and appropriate markup.

-- 
Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net
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Re: [css-d] A Fairly Complex Design Complete, wishing to implement using all CSS

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Marc Funaro wrote:
> Sorry, realized that after I posted, and just got done creating the 
> smallest JPG I could:
> 
> http://nyslittreedata.advantex.net/new/base.jpg

> http://nyslittreedata.advantex.net/new/base.htm

That's a pretty ordinary 'fixed-width 2-column layout with header and
footer', well suited for floats and negative margins...

No need for that exact layout-method, but it is one of the most robust
methods around and almost tailor-made to your design.

Height or amount of content is not a problem. Container-height will
adjust to content by simply styling them to do so. That's part of the
'negative margin' method, btw.

The header is the most tricky part, I think, but not at all difficult to
create. Four images floated left inside one div#header, and lined up /
positioned with margins on each image.
No need for divs around images - except maybe for the leftmost one for
cross-browser reliable result.

Leftmost image in header should overlap the left column, which is
easiest done by giving it a negative margin-bottom, and layering it
higher (with position: relative) than the following div#main-container.
Pushing the left column down by a 'padding-top' makes the illusion perfect.



Never mind cutting images to exact dimensions and putting them in divs.
The 'negative margin' method allows for pixel-perfect positioning and
dimensioning/overlapping as long as you're dealing with images.

Using paragraphs for text and lists for navigation, will give you plenty
of elements to style without adding a lot of divs.
In short: avoid "divitis".

regards
Georg
-- 
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [css-d] A Fairly Complex Design Complete, wishing to implement using all CSS

[Marc Funaro]

Thank you Rakesh,

My specific question revolves around dynamic-height columns, I believe, but
starts with "should I start over with the slicing, and if so, what should I
do different?"

Firefox is a definite here. =)

>   Hi Marc,
>   
>   Your's is a pretty simple layout to achieve using CSS. 
>   Since you don't have a specific question, it'll be hard 
>   to start explaining. However, as always, start with 
>   good clean markup and don't bother about the CSS yet. 
>   Make sure your site is readable without any of the CSS. 
>   This means you'll have to decide on the document 
>   structure, get your headings and lists right, and stuff 
>   like that.
>   
>   Once that is done, you can start with the CSS. I 
>   usually go one step at a time especially if the layouts 
>   are complex, and keep checking how it looks in browser(s).
>   
>   Since you are new to CSS, and if you don't already 
>   know, may I also recommend that you should design your 
>   CSS for Firefox (or Netscape, or any other Mozilla 
>   flavor), then tweak it for IE - not the other way round 
>   - to ensure that you don't pull your hair over browser 
>   compatibility at a later stage.

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Re: [css-d] A Fairly Complex Design Complete, wishing to implement using all CSS

[Rakesh Pai]

Hi Marc,

Your's is a pretty simple layout to achieve using CSS. Since you don't
have a specific question, it'll be hard to start explaining. However,
as always, start with good clean markup and don't bother about the CSS
yet. Make sure your site is readable without any of the CSS. This
means you'll have to decide on the document structure, get your
headings and lists right, and stuff like that.

Once that is done, you can start with the CSS. I usually go one step
at a time especially if the layouts are complex, and keep checking how
it looks in browser(s).

Since you are new to CSS, and if you don't already know, may I also
recommend that you should design your CSS for Firefox (or Netscape, or
any other Mozilla flavor), then tweak it for IE - not the other way
round - to ensure that you don't pull your hair over browser
compatibility at a later stage.

On 5/18/06, Marc Funaro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Again Everyone,
>
> 1.   My apologies for mentioning money... it won't happen again.  And thank
> you all for being here for me, "at no charge"!!
>
> 2.  Here is the layout html file and css. I've purposely broken the layout
> so it can be clear where the template needs to dynamically grow/shrink.  The
> design is meant to fit on a 1024x768 resolution, and this specification
> can't be changed.  I suppose there are actually TWO columns that need to
> have dynamic height - the broken content area, and the left navigation.
>
> This output is the direct result of simply slicing up the template that I
> have, using Adobe ImageReady.  I've modified the CSS slightly, adding a
> couple items at the top and commenting out lines that create the brokenness
> of it all.  I originally had the content area scrolling using overflow:auto,
> but after thinking about it, that's just not going to work either... it's a
> public site and having two vertical scrollbars was just too much.
>
> As usual, also trying to avoid a horizontal scrollbar on anything 1024x768
> or larger.
>
> Sample Page:
> http://nyslittreedata.advantex.net/new/base.htm
>
> CSS for Sample Page:
> http://nyslittreedata.advantex.net/new/base.css
>
> Again, thanks for your help everyone, and my apologies for jumping right in
> and breaking the rules with my very first post.
>
> Marc
>
>
>
>   _
>
> From: Ian Piper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:30 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [css-d] A Fairly Complex Design Complete, wishing to implement
> using all CSS
>
>
> Hi Marc,
>
> I am comparatively new to using this list. I am sure you will find excellent
> advice here (I always have) but you need to know the etiquette! I have been
> slapped by the guardians of the list a couple of times. Anyway, your best
> bet for getting help (and if I can help I will do so) is to put up a url.
> This will let the gurus see a precise example of what is going on and to see
> both your html and your css. A jpg of the layout won't be enough.
>
> My main advice is to persevere with the standards approach. I used to waste
> incredible amounts of time kludging table-based layouts and *still* had
> problems from one browser to another. Using standards and css I now get much
> more predictable behaviour between browsers and I get clean easy to read
> code into the bargain.
>
> One final word: the people on this list won't be attracted by a $100
> incentive. These people are the elite of web designers - some of them have
> literally written the book on the subject - so they are not doing this for
> money. Offering cash will just irritate them.
>
> Anyway, get that page up on the web and let's see if we can help!
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Ian.
>
> --
>
> Dr Ian M Piper
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> skype: ianmpiper
>
> --
>
> Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?
>
> Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?
>
>
>
> On 17 May 2006, at 10:35 pm, Marc Funaro wrote:
>
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
> We just received a final design for a new website, in Photoshop format. It
> looks good and meets the need... And it is fully approved by the client.
> Now, I could do what I've always done -- slice it up using Adobe ImageReady
> and output it as HTML/Tables. But I recently did an output using CSS
> instead, and JUST as I've always wanted, I ended up with a very clean
> separation of content from layout using absolute positioning.
>
> However, the main content area is of dynamic length, and I ran into trouble
> when it was too long - it overran the footer, and no amount of CSS
> experimentation would fix it. So, I am ready to start over and 

Re: [css-d] A Fairly Complex Design Complete, wishing to implement using all CSS

[Marc Funaro]

Sorry, realized that after I posted, and just got done creating the smallest
JPG I could:

http://nyslittreedata.advantex.net/new/base.jpg




>   -Original Message-
>   From: Phil Baines [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>   Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 6:24 AM
>   To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   Subject: RE: [css-d] A Fairly Complex Design 
    >   Complete,wishing to implement using all CSS
>   
>   Hi Marc,
>   
>   It might be a good idea to post a JPEG of how the 
>   design SHOULD look exactly. From what I can see I would 
>   imagine this will be pretty easy to fix, and still keep 
>   it in CSS, but I would need to see a JPEG to avoid any 
>   assumptions on how it is supposed to look.
>   
>   From first impressions I would say that it seems like 
>   you have chopped up your images far too much. Remember 
>   it is always best to use as small amount of images as 
>   possible, even if they are larger. It takes longer to 
>   download many small images than one larger image of the 
>   same combined size. It is also making you're XHTML more 
>   complicated than it needs to be for the sake of the 
>   presentation.
>   
>   Let's see that JPEG and see what we can do?!
>   
>   Best regards,
>   Phil
>   
>   Netring media and technology
>   website: www.netring.co.uk
>   telephone: 01239 711 471
>   -Original Message-
>   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
    >   Of Marc Funaro
>   Sent: 18 May 2006 11:12
    >   To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
>   Subject: Re: [css-d] A Fairly Complex Design 
>   Complete,wishing to implement using all CSS
>   
>   Hi Again Everyone,
>
>   1.   My apologies for mentioning money... it won't 
>   happen again.  And thank
>   you all for being here for me, "at no charge"!!
>
>   2.  Here is the layout html file and css. I've 
>   purposely broken the layout so it can be clear where 
>   the template needs to dynamically grow/shrink.  The 
>   design is meant to fit on a 1024x768 resolution, and 
>   this specification can't be changed.  I suppose there 
>   are actually TWO columns that need to have dynamic 
>   height - the broken content area, and the left navigation.
>
>   This output is the direct result of simply slicing up 
>   the template that I have, using Adobe ImageReady.  I've 
>   modified the CSS slightly, adding a couple items at the 
>   top and commenting out lines that create the brokenness 
>   of it all.  I originally had the content area scrolling 
>   using overflow:auto, but after thinking about it, 
>   that's just not going to work either... it's a public 
>   site and having two vertical scrollbars was just too much.
>
>   As usual, also trying to avoid a horizontal scrollbar 
>   on anything 1024x768 or larger.
>
>   Sample Page:
>   http://nyslittreedata.advantex.net/new/base.htm
>
>   CSS for Sample Page:
>   http://nyslittreedata.advantex.net/new/base.css
>
>   Again, thanks for your help everyone, and my apologies 
>   for jumping right in and breaking the rules with my 
>   very first post.
>
>   Marc
    >
>   
>   
> _  
>   
>   From: Ian Piper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:30 AM
>   To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   Subject: Re: [css-d] A Fairly Complex Design Complete, 
>   wishing to implement using all CSS
>   
>   
>   Hi Marc, 
>   
>   I am comparatively new to using this list. I am sure 
>   you will find excellent
>   advice here (I always have) but you need to know the 
>   etiquette! I have been
>   slapped by the guardians of the list a couple of times. 
>   Anyway, your best
>   bet for getting help (and if I can help I will do so) 
>   is to put up a url.
>   This will let the gurus see a precise example of what 
>   is going on and to see
>   both your html and your css. A jpg of the layout won't 
>   be enough.
>   
>   My main advice is to persevere with the standards 
>   approach. I used to waste
>   incredible amounts of time kludging table-based layouts 
>   and *still* had
>   problems from one browser to another. Using standards 
>   and css I now get much
>   more predictable behaviour between brow

Re: [css-d] A Fairly Complex Design Complete, wishing to implement using all CSS

[Marc Funaro]

Hi Again Everyone,
 
1.   My apologies for mentioning money... it won't happen again.  And thank
you all for being here for me, "at no charge"!!
 
2.  Here is the layout html file and css. I've purposely broken the layout
so it can be clear where the template needs to dynamically grow/shrink.  The
design is meant to fit on a 1024x768 resolution, and this specification
can't be changed.  I suppose there are actually TWO columns that need to
have dynamic height - the broken content area, and the left navigation.
 
This output is the direct result of simply slicing up the template that I
have, using Adobe ImageReady.  I've modified the CSS slightly, adding a
couple items at the top and commenting out lines that create the brokenness
of it all.  I originally had the content area scrolling using overflow:auto,
but after thinking about it, that's just not going to work either... it's a
public site and having two vertical scrollbars was just too much.
 
As usual, also trying to avoid a horizontal scrollbar on anything 1024x768
or larger.
 
Sample Page:
http://nyslittreedata.advantex.net/new/base.htm
 
CSS for Sample Page:
http://nyslittreedata.advantex.net/new/base.css
 
Again, thanks for your help everyone, and my apologies for jumping right in
and breaking the rules with my very first post.
 
Marc
 


  _  

From: Ian Piper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:30 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [css-d] A Fairly Complex Design Complete, wishing to implement
using all CSS


Hi Marc, 

I am comparatively new to using this list. I am sure you will find excellent
advice here (I always have) but you need to know the etiquette! I have been
slapped by the guardians of the list a couple of times. Anyway, your best
bet for getting help (and if I can help I will do so) is to put up a url.
This will let the gurus see a precise example of what is going on and to see
both your html and your css. A jpg of the layout won't be enough.

My main advice is to persevere with the standards approach. I used to waste
incredible amounts of time kludging table-based layouts and *still* had
problems from one browser to another. Using standards and css I now get much
more predictable behaviour between browsers and I get clean easy to read
code into the bargain.

One final word: the people on this list won't be attracted by a $100
incentive. These people are the elite of web designers - some of them have
literally written the book on the subject - so they are not doing this for
money. Offering cash will just irritate them.

Anyway, get that page up on the web and let's see if we can help!

Regards,


Ian.

-- 

Dr Ian M Piper

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

skype: ianmpiper

-- 

Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? 

Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?



On 17 May 2006, at 10:35 pm, Marc Funaro wrote:


Hi Everyone,

We just received a final design for a new website, in Photoshop format. It
looks good and meets the need... And it is fully approved by the client.
Now, I could do what I've always done -- slice it up using Adobe ImageReady
and output it as HTML/Tables. But I recently did an output using CSS
instead, and JUST as I've always wanted, I ended up with a very clean
separation of content from layout using absolute positioning.

However, the main content area is of dynamic length, and I ran into trouble
when it was too long - it overran the footer, and no amount of CSS
experimentation would fix it. So, I am ready to start over and reslice the
template... But I'd really like the guidance of a CSS expert to help me
slice this template up "properly" so that it does what I want, but in CSS.

The main problem is, I only have about $100 left in the budget to get a
guru's assistance. This was a fixed-bid project for a non-profit client.
That amount is generally insulting to experts, but I'm wondering if perhaps
for that amount, someone here would be willing to assist off-list, and just
point me in the right direction using the tools that I have available to me.
I could provide a JPG of the layout, and perhaps the right person could give
me a better starting point than I have right now...?

Finally... I am (BRAND) new to the list - please accept my apologies if this
post is offensive in any way, as I have not had time to lurk and observe the
true etiquette and nature of the list. I just want to get this done, but if
a CSS-only layout is too much for this design, I'll have to go back to
regular tables.

Thanks for whatever help you can provide...

M

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Re: [css-d] A Fairly Complex Design Complete, wishing to implement using all CSS

[Robert O'Rourke]

> Finally... I am (BRAND) new to the list - please accept my apologies if this
> post is offensive in any way, as I have not had time to lurk and observe the
> true etiquette and nature of the list.  I just want to get this done, but if
> a CSS-only layout is too much for this design, I'll have to go back to
> regular tables.
>
> Thanks for whatever help you can provide...
>
> M
Any sample pages or links?
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[css-d] A Fairly Complex Design Complete, wishing to implement using all CSS

[Marc Funaro]

Hi Everyone,

We just received a final design for a new website, in Photoshop format.  It
looks good and meets the need... And it is fully approved by the client.
Now, I could do what I've always done -- slice it up using Adobe ImageReady
and output it as HTML/Tables.  But I recently did an output using CSS
instead, and JUST as I've always wanted, I ended up with a very clean
separation of content from layout using absolute positioning.

However, the main content area is of dynamic length, and I ran into trouble
when it was too long - it overran the footer, and no amount of CSS
experimentation would fix it.  So, I am ready to start over and reslice the
template... But I'd really like the guidance of a CSS expert to help me
slice this template up "properly" so that it does what I want, but in CSS.

The main problem is, I only have about $100 left in the budget to get a
guru's assistance.  This was a fixed-bid project for a non-profit client.
That amount is generally insulting to experts, but I'm wondering if perhaps
for that amount, someone here would be willing to assist off-list, and just
point me in the right direction using the tools that I have available to me.
I could provide a JPG of the layout, and perhaps the right person could give
me a better starting point than I have right now...?

Finally... I am (BRAND) new to the list - please accept my apologies if this
post is offensive in any way, as I have not had time to lurk and observe the
true etiquette and nature of the list.  I just want to get this done, but if
a CSS-only layout is too much for this design, I'll have to go back to
regular tables.

Thanks for whatever help you can provide...

M

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