Re: [css-d] HTML, CSS, JavaScript: Model-View-Controller
-Original Message- From: css-d-boun...@lists.css-discuss.org [mailto:css-d-boun...@lists.css-discuss.org] On Behalf Of Chetan Crasta Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 11:24 PM To: Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd) Cc: css-d Subject: Re: [css-d] HTML, CSS, JavaScript: Model-View-Controller On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 5:38 AM, Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote: >Whilst Gabriele's weblog citations > were initially interesting, of late they have been coming so >frequently I agree. Many of Gabriele's blog posts are about simple things like "Styling a Form" etc. These topics do not require discussion and, to me, are not particularly interesting. I'm sure a lot of list members have blogs or websites of their own, so this list would become extremely noisy if everyone sent a message for every post or update they made. However, some of Gabriele's blog posts on CSS3 did start informative discussions and it would be nice if he/she occasionally informed the list of those posts. ~Chetan __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ I'm thinking, without looking first, that they may offer an RSS feed to anyone interested in following the topic? __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] HTML, CSS, JavaScript: Model-View-Controller
On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 5:38 AM, Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote: >Whilst Gabriele's weblog citations > were initially interesting, of late they have been coming so > frequently I agree. Many of Gabriele's blog posts are about simple things like "Styling a Form" etc. These topics do not require discussion and, to me, are not particularly interesting. I'm sure a lot of list members have blogs or websites of their own, so this list would become extremely noisy if everyone sent a message for every post or update they made. However, some of Gabriele's blog posts on CSS3 did start informative discussions and it would be nice if he/she occasionally informed the list of those posts. ~Chetan __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] HTML, CSS, JavaScript: Model-View-Controller
Kevin A. Cameron wrote: To be honest this 'discussion' on the merits of this post was a far greater waste of time than the post in question! :P With respect, I disagree. Whilst Gabriele's weblog citations were initially interesting, of late they have been coming so frequently that I was close to installing a "Gabriele" filter to keep them out. I am very grateful that Gabriele has now shown the good sense to agree to reduce the number of posts relating to his/her weblog, and I imagine that other list members may well feel the same way. Philip Taylor __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] HTML, CSS, JavaScript: Model-View-Controller
To be honest this 'discussion' on the merits of this post was a far greater waste of time than the post in question! :P Signal to noise ratio of this list tilts to the wrong side sometimes... Kevin On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 1:23 PM, David Laakso wrote: > On 1/5/11 4:02 PM, Gabriele Romanato wrote: > >> >> I'll stop it. From now on, no more posts from my blog. >> >> >> >> > Well, no need to throw yourself through a closed window on the top floor of > a tall building...:-) . > Your "on-topic" posts to CSS-D are always informative and thought > provoking. I do hope you will keep those coming... > > Best, > ~quasimodo > Paris > > -- > http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ > http://chelseacreekstudio.com/fa/ > > > __ > css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] > http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d > List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ > List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html > Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] HTML, CSS, JavaScript: Model-View-Controller
On 1/5/11 4:02 PM, Gabriele Romanato wrote: I'll stop it. From now on, no more posts from my blog. Well, no need to throw yourself through a closed window on the top floor of a tall building...:-) . Your "on-topic" posts to CSS-D are always informative and thought provoking. I do hope you will keep those coming... Best, ~quasimodo Paris -- http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ http://chelseacreekstudio.com/fa/ __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] HTML, CSS, JavaScript: Model-View-Controller
No Barney, what I did is completely wrong. It's off-topic and quite spamming. I'll stop it. From now on, no more posts from my blog. thanks for your answers and the answers of all css-d readers. Lesson learned. :-) http://www.css-zibaldone.com http://www.css-zibaldone.com/test/ (English) http://www.css-zibaldone.com/articles/ (English) http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/ (English) __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] HTML, CSS, JavaScript: Model-View-Controller
> > Maybe I was too confident in the fact that the readers of this list were > already familiar with OOP. Sorry for the weird feeling. I feel like > apologizing know, so excuse me. bye :-) Sorry Gabriele, didn't mean to bite your head off ;) I'm interested in everything you mentioned in that article, and am only really frustrated that I didn't understand a single part of it! I am very familiar with MVC methodology and, to a lesser degree, OOP. I also believe they have strong and long-overdue applications for webapps in the front-end workflow, which is why I was interested — for instance, I've been making a lot of use of jQuery's tmpl() function [1] recently, so that I can use Javascript to define HTML templates as purely view components, and retrieving the model in clean JSON format to introduce into said view. That's interesting and new to me, but it's not really on-topic for this list, and nobody was asking anyway — but it is just a sentence, and it succinctly represents a methodology that's different from the norm. As I said, I am interested and would like to understand your ideas on the subject, but for my part the CSS aspect is the least interesting (for that particular topic) ;) — however I can recommend the list @ evolt.org for more generic web tech issues. I do agree with you though, that I have a hard time relating that OOP model > of MVC to the one mentioned in the blog post other than as a passing > resemblance. The relationships between HTML, CSS, Javascript, and the > Browser are not encapsulated like the OOP MVC, so to me that would not > qualify it as an MVC model as it leaves out the main purpose of MVC. If it > were true MVC, someone shouldn't be able to alter the appearance/view from > Javascript/controller, and so on. The example used Javascript to modify a DOM attribute. If this, which is barely more than a single line of code, without context or even the hint of an explanation of purpose, or a note on what it represents… Is deemed to have 'a passing resemblance' to MVC… Then… I can't… finish this sentence ;) [1] http://api.jquery.com/category/plugins/templates/ Regards, Barney Carroll barney.carr...@gmail.com 07594 506 381 __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] HTML, CSS, JavaScript: Model-View-Controller
Well, thoughts about web development are not truths in the religious sense of the word. I was just expressing my views in quite a polite way, without being conceited or imposing me over other people's opinion. Just a thought, a resemblance, a comparison, a linking that popped into my head while reading the last book on OOP and some couples of web standards related books. I'm sorry if this got confused you. Maybe I was too confident in the fact that the readers of this list were already familiar with OOP. Sorry for the weird feeling. I feel like apologizing know, so excuse me. bye :-) http://www.css-zibaldone.com http://www.css-zibaldone.com/test/ (English) http://www.css-zibaldone.com/articles/ (English) http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/ (English) __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] HTML, CSS, JavaScript: Model-View-Controller
At 6:01 PM + 1/5/11, Barney Carroll wrote: Hiya Gabriele, Your article confused me massively, and I found it incredibly difficult to work out what you were trying to present. Based on your concluding line: Even though this model differs greatly from the original OOP one, it's worth mentioning that its further applications are incredibly useful. What are you referring to as 'this model'? What's the difference? What is 'the original OOP one'? What 'incredibly useful' 'further applications' are there? At the risk of sounding rude, I think it's harmful (especially to impressionable list members who've signed up to learn about CSS - but actually for anyone who is signed up for the purpose of offering or receiving help on a specific subject) when somebody assumes an air of authority and conflates application development methodologies with scripting language namespacing formats; front-end web languages; and basic DOM manipulations. There are some very serious, inexplicably bizarre, misinformed connections going on there, and it's possible the only reason they're not outright lies is because there are no clear ideas or facts in your article. If you have any questions about any of these, there are plenty of experts on this list to help out - was this in response to a question (even one of your own, perhaps) or problem that you've faced recently? Regards, Barney Carroll +1 I teach college level OOP and I do not see the point of this article. IMO, this only confuses people trying to learn CSS. It even confused me. In short, CSS is not rocket science, but rather a simple way to handle web styling. Keep it simple. If one wants to consider all languages that can be considered in creating a web page and how the MVC may fit, then there's much more than html, css, and js to consider -- BUT -- that's for a different list. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com/ __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] HTML, CSS, JavaScript: Model-View-Controller
On 01/05/2011 01:01 PM, Barney Carroll wrote: Hiya Gabriele, Your article confused me massively, and I found it incredibly difficult to work out what you were trying to present. Based on your concluding line: Even though this model differs greatly from the original OOP one, it's worth mentioning that its further applications are incredibly useful. …What are you referring to as 'this model'? What's the difference? What is 'the original OOP one'? What 'incredibly useful' 'further applications' are there? This model would be Model (HTML), View (CSS), Controller (Javascript). The original OOP one is where you have a Model of your logic and data structures/entities; a View that delegates the appearance and presentation settings; and a Controller that appropriately builds the correct data, executes the necessary logic, and renders the presentation features. The point of MVC in an OOP format is that you encapsulate your concerns. With the View separate from the Controller, your controller only needs to say something like View.renderThePage() to know that it will display the page. The View then can determine what the rendering actually looks like, and any changes here won't require refactoring of the Controller. A similar case applies for changes in the logic or data between the Model and the Controller. The Controller only needs to say Model.computeTaxes() and not care about how the calculations are done. Finally, the separation between the View and Model is important too for similar reasons. At the risk of sounding rude, I think it's harmful (especially to impressionable list members who've signed up to learn about CSS — but actually for anyone who is signed up for the purpose of offering or receiving help on a specific subject) when somebody assumes an air of authority and conflates application development methodologies with scripting language namespacing formats; front-end web languages; and basic DOM manipulations. There are some very serious, inexplicably bizarre, misinformed connections going on there, and it's possible the only reason they're not outright lies is because there are no clear ideas or facts in your article. If you have any questions about any of these, there are plenty of experts on this list to help out — was this in response to a question (even one of your own, perhaps) or problem that you've faced recently? Regards, Barney Carroll barney.carr...@gmail.com 07594 506 381 I do agree with you though, that I have a hard time relating that OOP model of MVC to the one mentioned in the blog post other than as a passing resemblance. The relationships between HTML, CSS, Javascript, and the Browser are not encapsulated like the OOP MVC, so to me that would not qualify it as an MVC model as it leaves out the main purpose of MVC. If it were true MVC, someone shouldn't be able to alter the appearance/view from Javascript/controller, and so on. In my opinion, Rich On 5 January 2011 17:29, Gabriele Romanatowrote: A way to rethink the traditional and static three-layered model: http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/2011/01/html-css-and-javascript-model-view.html HTH :-) http://www.css-zibaldone.com http://www.css-zibaldone.com/test/ (English) http://www.css-zibaldone.com/articles/ (English) http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/ (English) __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] HTML, CSS, JavaScript: Model-View-Controller
Hiya Gabriele, Your article confused me massively, and I found it incredibly difficult to work out what you were trying to present. Based on your concluding line: Even though this model differs greatly from the original OOP one, it's worth > mentioning that its further applications are incredibly useful. …What are you referring to as 'this model'? What's the difference? What is 'the original OOP one'? What 'incredibly useful' 'further applications' are there? At the risk of sounding rude, I think it's harmful (especially to impressionable list members who've signed up to learn about CSS — but actually for anyone who is signed up for the purpose of offering or receiving help on a specific subject) when somebody assumes an air of authority and conflates application development methodologies with scripting language namespacing formats; front-end web languages; and basic DOM manipulations. There are some very serious, inexplicably bizarre, misinformed connections going on there, and it's possible the only reason they're not outright lies is because there are no clear ideas or facts in your article. If you have any questions about any of these, there are plenty of experts on this list to help out — was this in response to a question (even one of your own, perhaps) or problem that you've faced recently? Regards, Barney Carroll barney.carr...@gmail.com 07594 506 381 On 5 January 2011 17:29, Gabriele Romanato wrote: > A way to rethink the traditional and static three-layered model: > > > http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/2011/01/html-css-and-javascript-model-view.html > > HTH :-) > > > http://www.css-zibaldone.com > http://www.css-zibaldone.com/test/ (English) > http://www.css-zibaldone.com/articles/ (English) > http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/ (English) > > > > > > > > > __ > css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] > http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d > List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ > List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html > Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
[css-d] HTML, CSS, JavaScript: Model-View-Controller
A way to rethink the traditional and static three-layered model: http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/2011/01/html-css-and-javascript-model-view.html HTH :-) http://www.css-zibaldone.com http://www.css-zibaldone.com/test/ (English) http://www.css-zibaldone.com/articles/ (English) http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/ (English) __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
