Re: [css-d] Frustration learning css for layout

[Alex Robinson]

At 14:40 +0200 27/10/05, Erik Visser wrote:
>So what I 'am asking myuself since then:
>- what things to find in the DTD
>- what things to find in the other part of the recommendation
>- what to find else where
>
>Is there some kind of guideline or something like that somewhere?


Start from the css-d wiki

http://css-discuss.incutio.com/

and move out from there

http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=UsefulResources
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=GoodBooks


>>From this point of view I guess the starting point of design should be:
>- not to get realized whats in my head
>- but rather the possibilities (without hacks) should be the starting
>point (off course with a certain design in mind)

If hacks make possible what you dream of, then you should feel to use 
hacks. Just as long as you are aware of the implications of 
committing yourself to such a path.


>Maybe there are even places that list browser bugs and explain the work
>arounds (while avoiding hacks off course).

Well, apart from conditional comments for IE or double-wrapping a box 
to overcome the box model, the only workarounds for the other 
browsers is to do it differently.

Anyhow, css-d people, can this thread end now? We've done it to death 
a thousand times already. Unless of course someone has something 
spectacularly useful, insightful and practical to add ;)


Alex
css-d moderator
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Re: [css-d] Frustration learning css for layout

[Erik Visser]

Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:
> David Agnew wrote:
>> CSS is clearly elegant and powerful, and I have little difficulty
>> using it to style elements. And using divs for layout - which I'm new
>>  at - works pretty well designing for ONE browser. But trying to make
>>  the layout look right for 'all' browsers is driving me nuts (and I
>> suspect I have company).
> 
> I think this article says it well...
> 
> 
 >> Are there any agreed-upon (or widely accepted) fundamentals
>> (conditional comments vs. hacks; the 'best' box-model hack; best
>> source for reliable hacks; top 3 issues to address, when and how to
>> position divs, etc)?
> 
> The basic is found on , although it can be hard to
> find all bits and pieces in that maze of a site.
> This page should lead to some useful resources:
> 

1. What I found difficult about the W3C recommendations, is that
sometimes the only way to get the info is to dig in the DTD. For
instance which elements are block level and which are inline?
I could not finf it until someone on another list gave me the answer
look in the DTD!

So what I 'am asking myuself since then:
- what things to find in the DTD
- what things to find in the other part of the recommendation
- what to find else where

Is there some kind of guideline or something like that somewhere?

2. About the "agraad-upon". In another thread this was stated:

> I'd strongly advise against using XHTML (which has a large number of
> gotchas) and Transitional (which includes large numbers of elements
> and attributes that should not be used, and only a couple which might
> be useful ... and then only very rarely).
> 
> "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd";>
> 
> ... is almost certainly a better bet.
> 
> --
> David Dorward

Is this a general "agreed-upon" ?

3. Avoiding hacks.
Is there a central resource (or a couple of places) that starts form the
viewpoint: building standards compliant websites ( (x)html and css )
while avoiding hacks as much as possible.

>From this point of view I guess the starting point of design should be:
- not to get realized whats in my head
- but rather the possibilities (without hacks) should be the starting
point (off course with a certain design in mind)

Maybe there are even places that list browser bugs and explain the work
arounds (while avoiding hacks off course).

Thanks, Erik
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Re: [css-d] Frustration learning css for layout

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

David Agnew wrote:
CSS is clearly elegant and powerful, and I have little difficulty 
using it to style elements. And using divs for layout - which I'm new

 at - works pretty well designing for ONE browser. But trying to make
 the layout look right for 'all' browsers is driving me nuts (and I 
suspect I have company).


I think this article says it well...


I've read possibly hundreds of pages of code/hack advice, yet it 
seems that every fix I make breaks something else, and I often have 
no way to know if the advice I'm following is truly savvy or not.


Lots of old and outdated articles around - check dates. Also a lot of
relative new articles that repeat old stuff without checking and testing
what works and what doesn't.

CSS and browser-support is still very much a moving target, with
constant browser-upgrades, and even seasoned web developers have their
frustrated moments while trying to stay on top of it and separate the
useful stuff from a maze of browser-bugs.

Are there any agreed-upon (or widely accepted) fundamentals 
(conditional comments vs. hacks; the 'best' box-model hack; best 
source for reliable hacks; top 3 issues to address, when and how to 
position divs, etc)?


Only one rule that most web developers seems to agree on:
- design in Opera, Moz/Firefox, Safari first (in whatever order you
like), and correct things in IE/win later.
This makes sense when we look at actual standard support:


The rest is basically 'personal preferences', where we often agree to
disagree :-) (once we've got the hang of it).

Without knowing or understanding some basics, I get the feeling that 
I'm building on quicksand, and thinking fondly of tables.


Oh, and I left tables because they were too unstable...

The basic is found on , although it can be hard to
find all bits and pieces in that maze of a site.
This page should lead to some useful resources:


regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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RE: [css-d] Frustration learning css for layout

[Dean Matsueda]

> Without knowing or understanding some basics, I get the 
> feeling that I'm building on quicksand, and thinking fondly of tables.

I totally sympathize but you hit the nail on the head... to master any
piece of web technology (or just about anything really) you've got to
get a thorough understanding of the basics first, otherwise, yeah, it
can be a time-consuming and frustrating learning process.  Personally, I
floundered for weeks trying to figure out CSS on a new site design and
it wasn't until I sat down for the weekend and read a book on CSS that
it all came together.

But, if it helps, three practical suggestions:

1) make sure your HTML and CSS code validates, first and foremost

2) avoid hacks if you can; use them if there's no other way around them

3) take it step-by-step; try coding for a one-column site first and get
that going on multiple browsers; then try adding a second column -- what
happens when you float the column? or use relative positioning?; then
try adding a heading and a footer; then code your navigation; etc.  In
other words, start simple and build upon success.

Good luck and have fun with it!
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Re: [css-d] Frustration learning css for layout

[Christian Heilmann]

> Are there any agreed-upon (or widely accepted) fundamentals
> (conditional comments vs. hacks; the 'best' box-model hack; best
> source for reliable hacks; top 3 issues to address, when and how to
> position divs, etc)?
>
> Without knowing or understanding some basics, I get the feeling that
> I'm building on quicksand, and thinking fondly of tables.

That is the main issue IMHO. Designing with CSS and separation of
structure presentation and behaviour is not only about the techniques,
it is about embracing the idea of flexible design vs. pixel perfect
layouts.

I've mused about this wide and deep:
http://www.wait-till-i.com/index.php?p=172

A great resource to get are the Dan Cederholm books, and if you must
hack, the hacks and fixes one.
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=GoodBooks

--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
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