Dr J Mack & Bud Hopkins dialogue 2/2 http://www.alienjigsaw.com/Part_II/victor.html Five Areas of Focus Dr. Mack suggests five areas around which to focus our deepening appreciation for this experience. The first of these he calls the event level. By this he means that whatever occurs is assuredly intrusive in nature and very real to experiencers, yet so reality-shattering to everyone else as to be utterly unbelievable by its very nature. The trauma is real, the event seems real, yet acceptance of it as real has not yet begun to take root among the vast majority. Despite what a large number of very credible and psychologically healthy individuals are reporting, the reality of what is occurring has not yet become integrated into our "current reality." Skepticism among the "compact majority" exist primarily because no objective proof exits beyond the human experiential reports of experiencers. Secondly, Dr. Mack refers to the informational nature of what is being reported to him by experiencers. Concerns about ecological damage to the environment, mind to mind contact and hybrid breeding, represent the type of information which is relayed by virtually all experiencers. It appears as if the alien beings are relaying to, or putting experiencers in touch with perceptions about the state of the world, altered forms of communication and hybrid breeding, for reasons that we as yet do not understand. Thirdly Dr. Mack alludes to the spirituality aspect of what these beings impart to experiencers. Experiencers report that in some manner, the aliens are introducing to them the need for humans to become more open to a sense of a universal Oneness, the Source, or God. The fourth component of Dr. Mack's outline describes the nature of the beings themselves as they relate to experiencers. Mack has discovered that as he works with abductees they seem to develop a closer, deeper and powerful relationship with the beings. As a result of his work with experiencers, Dr. Mack does not believe the aliens are either benign or benevolent. Dr. Mack goes on to more fully explain these components in the fifth segment of his outline. Fifth, Dr. Mack discusses the societal and scientific resistance toward the phenomenon which is clearly evident throughout society in general. General resistance is generated whenever a shift in paradigms begins to influence or alter a dominant world view. Ontology (ways of knowing or how knowledge is organized within a society) is drastically shifted when attempts are made to deal rationally with something like the alien abduction enigma. It does not fit. Acceptance of it would necessarily require a drastic alteration of our belief structures, both scientifically and socially, in order to fully integrate the notion of alien influence into our current world view. The abduction phenomenon crosses over and through the physical and spiritual. In a strange way it seems to be both physical as well as spiritual. The phenomenon appears to manifest itself in a physical way, but somehow possesses attributes of the spiritual domain. In a like manner, it has spiritual characteristics, yet it also possesses physical attributes. Dr. Mack continues by talking about how we cannot expect to "master" this phenomenon from within our current structures of knowledge. It all comes to us from or through another reality into our own reality. Since the illusion-like quality of abductions creates such discontinuity in our normal realm of beliefs, the only way most people deal with it is to dismiss it outright, as would be the case in any situation where discontinuity and the lack of physical proof abound. Resistance also emanates from the fact that we have no language with which to describe the subtleties of what seems to be happening to experiencers, therefore, resistance is understandably substantial. Dr. Mack explains that normal language like good-evil and Gods-Devils cannot adequately describe what seems to be occurring. Mack, it appears, remains convinced that the phenomenon is inviting us to expand our notion of reality. We are somehow being challenged to develop criteria which invites a different form of knowledge into our realm, thus expanding our ways of knowing. Dr. Mack appears to believe that this will never be proven outright and scientifically, but that these experiences will gradually evolve to gradually expand our consciousness and ways of knowing. The Nature of the Beings Following each outline the moderator invites both speakers to sit with him on the stage to begin an interchange or dialogue about key points of their years of observations and work among experiencers. The moderator requests more clarification on the nature of the beings and what they seem to bring to our reality. It is quite clear that Budd Hopkins has a defined mistrust of the aliens and their motivations. He explains how he has witnessed immense trauma and how the ensuing traumatic disorder has affected the lives of many of the people with whom he has worked. He also made it clear that he is in no way interested in the supposed agenda of whoever the alien beings are or portray themselves to be. Hopkins explains further that whatever their agenda is, it is decisively deceptive and is not to be trusted. The moral issue of aliens influencing the human spirit and our essence as human beings, can not be and should not be part of the equation. Mr. Hopkins is forceful in his defense of the uniqueness of the human spirit. Our human spirit in no way needs the intervention of deceptive beings who seek to control, implant devices and otherwise influence human beings along their evolutionary path. He reaffirms several times, and remains adamant that beings such as these who cause such trauma and who change their appearance at will in mid-stream can not be trusted or allowed to intervene in this manner. We simply cannot trust what they appear to be showing us. Dr. Mack counters Budd Hopkins' response by indicating that in his work he has witnessed the trauma and disorder, but that it appears to take the experiencer "somewhere else" after the experiencer has had an opportunity to deal with the fear and trauma. The trauma was, in his experience with abductees, not continuous - something else of greater value evolves. In his cross-cultural work with experiencers from different countries, he has seen how non-western cultures have dealt with the on-going experience and allowed it to evolve within themselves and their culture. The result seems to be a greater understanding of the deeper meaning behind the abduction experience. A Pyramid of Pain Budd Hopkins describes a vivid image which characterizes how different people integrate the abduction experience into their lives. Hopkins' point here was that we are yet to discover how most of humanity has been touched by this phenomenon and how they have integrated it into their lives. He asked the audience to imagine a large pyramid. At the base of the pyramid were the many thousands of people who have been traumatically touched by abduction experiences. Receiving no assistance or support they have, in their misery and inability to cope, turned to substance abuse, sexual or physical abuse and even suicide. The next level in the pyramid are those fewer who are touched by the phenomenon and who suffer in solitude, not knowing what is occurring yet barely coping with day to day existence. Then there is the next level; those who are getting help and coping with the many unexplained anomalies in their lives. Then at the top of the pyramid, are the very few survivors who have somehow integrated it into their lives. Looking around the auditorium I sensed that many present there that night identified emotionally with what Budd Hopkins was saying at that point. There were several areas of total agreement that evening, and this was definitely one of them. Following more general dialogue which reviews their general positions, the moderator opens the floor to questions from the audience to each speaker. The questions range from the well informed inquiry, framed to sincerely advance the level of discussion, to those which focuses on needless personal narratives or attempts to pin down either speaker on validity of proof. There were several good questions dealing with dream states and how they may be influenced by alien beings. There were also several questions about ufology, government cover-up and religious concerns. Reflection After the proceedings ended and both speakers had left the stage, a peculiar feeling lodged in my mind. "What comes next; where do we go from here?" Was I any more informed? No, not really. I had read or heard each speaker before and their positions had not drastically altered. So why then, drive ten hours to Boston to hear things about the possibilities of realities changing or expanding in new ways? I'd already heard or read it all before. I toyed with the question that evening as I drove back to my hotel amidst the insane Boston traffic. I suppose the answer lay in a few puzzling areas. Could it be the simple intrigue of imagining... What if things really were as these two renowned researchers described? What if the reality we all count on from moment to moment did or could change, or was in fact inter-changeable with other realities? What would the meaning of reality be then? It seemed to me much like watching a good classic movie, like Casablanca over and over... expecting something different to happen. Each time I watch Humphrey Bogart stand in the rain letting her go to board the plane; for an instant... for just that one split second... Gretta doesn't board the plane, but runs back to him in the rain, to stay... and yes reality is changed...yet the sun will rise tomorrow. Victor Viggiani B.A., M.Ed. Mr. Viggiani has researched the abduction phenomenon for about 9 years. His emphasis is support group work and individual assistance. His interest in UFO research has taken him to Quebec, Maryland, Boston, Montreal, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and Colorado. Specific geographic locations where Mr. Viggiani has interviewed people and performed key research include Roswell, Corona, Magdelana, Soccorro, Sun Spot, Area 51, Nellis AFB and Dulce New Mexico. His research has been published in several journals and newsletters. His major concerns are: (1) Dealing openly and honestly with experiencers, (2) Working toward total Governmental disclosure and open dialogue about the ET presence and influence on our planet. As an elementary school principal, Mr. Viggiani has direct involvement with children. He has come to realize through vivid testimony, that some children are involved in primary abduction experiences. He has become vitally interested in how childhood abduction experiences are manifested and the types of support and guidance that can be offered to these children and their parents. Mr. Viggiani has been in contact with Dr. Mack on the issue of abductions involving children and young adults. He hopes to release his findings in the near future. If you have any information on childhood abduction experiences or other anomalous experiences, Victor Viggiani can be contacted by email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mr. Viggiani is part of a support group which is planning a symposium that will focus on the subject of abductions. The symposium will be held in Toronto in the Fall of 1998. He is fifty years old and was born and raised in Toronto, Canada. He has two children and is also a "private pilot in training." PEER: The Program for Extraordinary Experience Research, can be reached by calling (617) 497-2667. If you would like to receive their helpful information packet, please send a check for $5.00 and a self-addressed stamped envelope to: PEER, P.O. Box 398080, Cambridge, MA, 02139. IF: The Intruders Foundation can be reached online at http://www.if-aic.com Budd Hopkins can be reached by writing to: IF, P.O. Box 30233, New York, NY, 10011; or by fax at (212) 352-1778. Copyright ©1993-2000 K. Wilson. All Rights Reserved. The Alien Jigsaw and the "Puzzle Piece Logo" are trademarks of Puzzle Publishing. Puzzle Publishing, USA. The following is reproduced with permission of the Author. It is forbidden to post any of the materials contained on this site to any newsgroup, web site, or any other electronic medium. Permission is granted to reproduce the above information in printed form, for personal, non-commercial purposes only, provided the information and the copy remain intact and unedited. http://www.alienjigsaw.com. 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