Re: [CTRL] Pre-Neanderthal pelvis suggests brain prevailed over brawn]
-Caveat Lector- Robert Tatman wrote: SNIP > Queri, you point up the one glaring weakness in this story--the definite use > of death rituals by the Neanderthals. As usual, a "scientific" conclusion has > been arrived at on the basis of incomplete data. However, consider this: even > stipulating the existence of well-developed community among the Neanderthals > (which is itself not fully proven), it does appear to be the case that Homo > sapiens sapiens (Cro-Magnon) was less robust than Homo sapiens > neanderthalensis, and therefore by definition was forced to rely on community > support for survival; neanderthalensis apparently could, and--if the data are > being correctly interpreted--frequently did, survive entirely independently of > any community. That at least is the implication of the story. IMHO, as it > happens, the Neanderthals died out through intermarriage with > Cro-Magnons--matings which were by no means necessarily sterile. In other > words, the gracile subspecies, H. sapiens sapiens, absorbed the robust > subspecies, H. sapiens neanderthalensis, and incorporated its genetic material > in the process of evolving into "Modern Man," Homo sapiens, the sole surviving > representative of genus Homo. It is just possible that the tendency of some > present-day Homo sapiens to become "mountain men" and the like indicates an > atavistic recurrence of Neanderthal characteristics. Perhaps the large pelvis story is a factor. It might have been that Cro Magnons simply outbred the less fecund Neanderthals. Carrying more developed fetus to term ( 11 or 16 months) seems to be a more demanding process then a less debilitating 9 months. Modern man, immigrating west to N.W. Europe. Overpopulating and stressing the hunter- gatherer economic base, Outbreeding, outeating the Neanderthals and stressing the fragile hunter gatherer environment. Aggressively mating with the dwindling number of Neanderthals, absorbing them into the rapidly swelling Cro Magnon population. Somehow this rings true. flw DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] Pre-Neanderthal pelvis suggests brain prevailed over brawn]
-Caveat Lector- Queribus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > Robert Tatman > > >The Nature article said that despite their "armored car" build, the > >Neanderthals became extinct because they failed to look after each other, > >whereas their weaker cousins, the descendants of modern man, were more social > >and were forced to depend on each other for survival. > > And how do they figure that? From the copious diaries left? The high > divorce rate? One of the few ritualized grave sites found is > Neanderthal-- flowers left in the grave-- that would seem to indicate > community, or at least family social development. > > There are many options for extinction-- interbreeding with Cro-Magnon > that produced sterile offspring, disease susceptibility, or just that > Humans did what Humans do best and wiped them out. > Queri, you point up the one glaring weakness in this story--the definite use of death rituals by the Neanderthals. As usual, a "scientific" conclusion has been arrived at on the basis of incomplete data. However, consider this: even stipulating the existence of well-developed community among the Neanderthals (which is itself not fully proven), it does appear to be the case that Homo sapiens sapiens (Cro-Magnon) was less robust than Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, and therefore by definition was forced to rely on community support for survival; neanderthalensis apparently could, and--if the data are being correctly interpreted--frequently did, survive entirely independently of any community. That at least is the implication of the story. IMHO, as it happens, the Neanderthals died out through intermarriage with Cro-Magnons--matings which were by no means necessarily sterile. In other words, the gracile subspecies, H. sapiens sapiens, absorbed the robust subspecies, H. sapiens neanderthalensis, and incorporated its genetic material in the process of evolving into "Modern Man," Homo sapiens, the sole surviving representative of genus Homo. It is just possible that the tendency of some present-day Homo sapiens to become "mountain men" and the like indicates an atavistic recurrence of Neanderthal characteristics. Bob = Robert F. Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Remove "nospam" from the address to reply. NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml POSTING THIS MESSAGE TO THE INTERNET DOES NOT IMPLY PERMISSION TO SEND UNSOLICITED COMMERCIAL E-MAIL (SPAM) TO THIS OR ANY OTHER INTERNET ADDRESS. RECEIPT OF SPAM WILL RESULT IN IMMEDIATE NOTIFICATION OF THE SENDER'S ISP. Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Pre-Neanderthal pelvis suggests brain prevailed over brawn
-Caveat Lector- Robert Tatman >The Nature article said that despite their "armored car" build, the >Neanderthals became extinct because they failed to look after each other, >whereas their weaker cousins, the descendants of modern man, were more social >and were forced to depend on each other for survival. And how do they figure that? From the copious diaries left? The high divorce rate? One of the few ritualized grave sites found is Neanderthal-- flowers left in the grave-- that would seem to indicate community, or at least family social development. There are many options for extinction-- interbreeding with Cro-Magnon that produced sterile offspring, disease susceptibility, or just that Humans did what Humans do best and wiped them out. Queri [EMAIL PROTECTED] DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Pre-Neanderthal pelvis suggests brain prevailed over brawn
-Caveat Lector- Robert Tatman wrote: > > -Caveat Lector- > > So much for rugged individualism... "The Nature article said that despite > their 'armored car' build, the Neanderthals became extinct because they failed > to look after each other, whereas their weaker cousins, the descendants of > modern man, were more social and were forced to depend on each other for > survival." > == > Pre-Neanderthal pelvis suggests brain prevailed over brawn > > May 21, 1999 > Web posted at: 3:09 p.m. EDT (1909 GMT) > > MADRID, Spain (AP) -- The ancestors of the Neanderthals were taller and > heavier than previously thought, leading scientists to speculate that brawn > over brains may have contributed to their extinction. > > Anthropologists from Madrid's Complutense University reached their conclusions > after a five-year study of a 300,000-year-old fossil pelvis. The pelvis was > put together from fragments found in 1994 in the key Atapuerca caves in > northern Spain, according to the study published Thursday in the journal > Nature. > > Complete pelvis fossils, which are quite rare, provide detailed information > about the person as a whole, including dimensions, reproduction and > locomotion. > > Team director Juan Luis Arsuaga told the daily El Mundo that the pelvis > belonged to a pre-Neanderthal male between 1.73 to 1.80 meters (about 6 feet) > tall who weighed at least 100 kilograms (about 220 pounds). > > Arsuaga, co-author of the study, said the width of the pelvis suggested that > pre-Neanderthals suffered far less pain giving birth than their direct > descendants, or modern humans. > > The pelvis belongs to an ancestor of the classic Neanderthals that date from > between 100,000 and 35,000 years ago, when they died out, Antonio Rosas told > the Associated Press. Rosas is an expert in prehistoric jaw bones who has also > worked at Atapuerca. > > "It is undoubtedly the most complete pelvis ever found from the period and an > important contribution to the field," Rosas said. > > The Nature article said that despite their "armored car" build, the > Neanderthals became extinct because they failed to look after each other, > whereas their weaker cousins, the descendants of modern man, were more social > and were forced to depend on each other for survival. > > As adults, the Atapuerca hominids had smaller brains than modern humans > relative to body mass, adding to the brawn-over-brain theory. > > The prehistoric remains were first discovered in the Atapuerca cave in 1976, > with full scale excavation begun in 1984. It is one of the world's best > prehistoric sites, and is the most important from the middle-plaestecine era > that began about 780,000 years ago and lasted for 660,000 years, Rosas said. Well duuu This is the reason I don't cut Libertarians and Capitalists any slack. They try to push a philosophy that is both counterintuitive and unnatural. That is, the supremacy of the individual. Without commenting on what kind of personality tends to find this ideology attractive, I would point out that ALL the elites work in, and work for their group. That group is generally the Upper Class and upwardly mobile wannabes. Unfortunately that group is at odds with the rest of humanity and we are rapidly approaching a situation of us and them within the constraints and parameters of limited resources in a finite ecological system. Joshua2 social animals have evolved to survive AS A GROUP. -- "And it came to pass that in the last days catatonics roamed the earth, and great monsters ruled the masses." Joshua II DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Pre-Neanderthal pelvis suggests brain prevailed over brawn
-Caveat Lector- So much for rugged individualism... "The Nature article said that despite their 'armored car' build, the Neanderthals became extinct because they failed to look after each other, whereas their weaker cousins, the descendants of modern man, were more social and were forced to depend on each other for survival." == Pre-Neanderthal pelvis suggests brain prevailed over brawn May 21, 1999 Web posted at: 3:09 p.m. EDT (1909 GMT) MADRID, Spain (AP) -- The ancestors of the Neanderthals were taller and heavier than previously thought, leading scientists to speculate that brawn over brains may have contributed to their extinction. Anthropologists from Madrid's Complutense University reached their conclusions after a five-year study of a 300,000-year-old fossil pelvis. The pelvis was put together from fragments found in 1994 in the key Atapuerca caves in northern Spain, according to the study published Thursday in the journal Nature. Complete pelvis fossils, which are quite rare, provide detailed information about the person as a whole, including dimensions, reproduction and locomotion. Team director Juan Luis Arsuaga told the daily El Mundo that the pelvis belonged to a pre-Neanderthal male between 1.73 to 1.80 meters (about 6 feet) tall who weighed at least 100 kilograms (about 220 pounds). Arsuaga, co-author of the study, said the width of the pelvis suggested that pre-Neanderthals suffered far less pain giving birth than their direct descendants, or modern humans. The pelvis belongs to an ancestor of the classic Neanderthals that date from between 100,000 and 35,000 years ago, when they died out, Antonio Rosas told the Associated Press. Rosas is an expert in prehistoric jaw bones who has also worked at Atapuerca. "It is undoubtedly the most complete pelvis ever found from the period and an important contribution to the field," Rosas said. The Nature article said that despite their "armored car" build, the Neanderthals became extinct because they failed to look after each other, whereas their weaker cousins, the descendants of modern man, were more social and were forced to depend on each other for survival. As adults, the Atapuerca hominids had smaller brains than modern humans relative to body mass, adding to the brawn-over-brain theory. The prehistoric remains were first discovered in the Atapuerca cave in 1976, with full scale excavation begun in 1984. It is one of the world's best prehistoric sites, and is the most important from the middle-plaestecine era that began about 780,000 years ago and lasted for 660,000 years, Rosas said. Copyright 1999 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. = Robert F. Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Remove "nospam" from the address to reply. NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml POSTING THIS MESSAGE TO THE INTERNET DOES NOT IMPLY PERMISSION TO SEND UNSOLICITED COMMERCIAL E-MAIL (SPAM) TO THIS OR ANY OTHER INTERNET ADDRESS. RECEIPT OF SPAM WILL RESULT IN IMMEDIATE NOTIFICATION OF THE SENDER'S ISP. Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
