Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun - was I WAS DICK CHENEY'S SEX SLAVE'
I thought it was obvious that I meant the Germany of the Nazi regime in power during WWII. I have nothing against Germans as a people or nation. The taint is associated with the Nazis since they were in power during much of the time that this technology was developed and they used ruthless and bloody means to test and build it. On Sat, 12 August 2000, "Damian B. Cooper" wrote: > > At 04:25 PM 8/11/00 -0700, tenebroust <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > Too bad > >this technology will always be tainted by the blood and death perpetrated by > >the Germans, and every country since them (and before for that matter). > > > > Well, then, wouldn't it logically and humanely follow that to save the > world from > the "blood and death" that WILL be perpetrated by Germans in the future that > we should quietly and humanely exterminate them all now? > > You will undoubtedly enjoy reading "Germany Must Perish", by Theodore Kaufmann. > > DBC > > http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER > == > CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic > screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are > sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- > directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with > major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. > That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and > always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no > credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. > > Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. > > Archives Available at: > http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html > http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ > http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl > > To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Om "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, in The Matrix "My God it's full of stars!" Dave Bowman, in 2001: A Space Odyssey ___ Free Unlimited Internet Access! Try it now! http://www.zdnet.com/downloads/altavista/index.html ___ http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED] http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun
[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: > > >I am proud of my German heritage. Good for you. Anybody who doesn't want Germans on their side is a fool. Compared to Americans, they're moral giants. Except for a handful of token bomb runs on Yugoslavia, the German military hasn't waged war in half a century. In the last nine years America's military has killed a half a million Iraqis, almost all of them women and children. I have a very close personal friend who grew up in the Hartz Mountains because at the end of the last war her family was run out of Selesia where they had lived as far back as anybody could remember. I've heard about it from her, and she from her parents. It was ugly. The war hurt everybody involved. No side was spared. To blame it on my friend, though, just because she was German, would be absurd. She hadn't even been born yet. Nazism was a total disaster for Germany. It was the worst thing ever happened to Germans. That doesn't mean it can't make a comeback. Nazism far from dead. The greatest lesson of the twentieth century is that these guys need to be slapped back down every time they raise their head. Better to nip them in the bud. It makes for a great savings in blood and treasure. Read The Beast Reawakens by Martin Lee for details. Sorry I can't tell you the ISBN off the top of my head, but my copy is loaned out. but it's in print and easy to find. It's an excellent read. Check it out. http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED] http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun
In a message dated 8/12/00 4:35:24 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > >I'm really quite sick of the habitual, gratuitous bashing and re-bashing > of every person of German identity > > And I'm sick of Nazi sympathizers putting words in my mouth. I said no > such thing. To imply that I did is typical of Nazi duplicity and of the > duplicity of their sympathizers. If you are going to continue to stick up > for Nazis you should do it somewhere else. Nazis are not welcome on this > list. It's a big net. There's plenty of parts of it where Nazis and their > friends are more than welcome. Go there instead. > Thanks, nessie. I didn't know what to say. Samantha http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED] http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun
Amen, Nessie. I am proud of my German heritage. It's a highly important part of me. BUT I ABOMINATE THE NAZIS AND EVERYTHING THEY DID AND EVERYTHING THEY STOOD FOR. When I was ten years old I began reading everything I could get my hands on, trying to understand why this nation of warm, loving people, the nation that produced Lessing, Schiller, Goethe, Beethoven, Heine, Hesse...why this nation could have descended into the depths of such a God-forsaken horror as Nazism. And over the years, among many other conclusions, I decided that I could not, under any circumstances, support the right of anyone to propagate Nazism today. Espousing Nazism in any form, in my opinion, constitutes a clear incitement to violence and hatred, to outright murder, and falls outside the protections of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. We kicked the Nazi wannabes off this list when they tried to take it over. I agree totally with Nessie that anyone wishing to spout that garbage should do it on another list. *Raus mit dir, Kerl. Hier ist gar kein Platz für dich.* - Original Message - From: "nessie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 5:32 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun > [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: > >I'm really quite sick of the habitual, gratuitous bashing and re-bashing > of every person of German identity > > And I'm sick of Nazi sympathizers putting words in my mouth. I said no > such thing. To imply that I did is typical of Nazi duplicity and of the > duplicity of their sympathizers. If you are going to continue to stick up > for Nazis you should do it somewhere else. Nazis are not welcome on this > list. It's a big net. There's plenty of parts of it where Nazis and their > friends are more than welcome. Go there instead. > http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED] http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun
[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: > >Anyone in a wartime economy which imposes wage and price controls and >commands >workers to work in specific industries is really a "slave laborer". Von Braun's slaves at Dora were hung with piano wire when they weren't quick enough to complete a task or if they made a mistake. Every day twenty of them would be picked at random and hung anyway, as an incentive to the others to work harder. The slaves marched passed their swinging bodies on the way to work in the morning. To compare their condition to that of the German workers is ludicrous. Only a Nazi sympathizer would do so. >I'm really quite sick of the habitual, gratuitous bashing and re-bashing of every person of German identity And I'm sick of Nazi sympathizers putting words in my mouth. I said no such thing. To imply that I did is typical of Nazi duplicity and of the duplicity of their sympathizers. If you are going to continue to stick up for Nazis you should do it somewhere else. Nazis are not welcome on this list. It's a big net. There's plenty of parts of it where Nazis and their friends are more than welcome. Go there instead. http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED] http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun - was I WAS DICK CHENEY'S SEX SLAVE'
At 04:25 PM 8/11/00 -0700, tenebroust <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Too bad >this technology will always be tainted by the blood and death perpetrated by >the Germans, and every country since them (and before for that matter). > Well, then, wouldn't it logically and humanely follow that to save the world from the "blood and death" that WILL be perpetrated by Germans in the future that we should quietly and humanely exterminate them all now? You will undoubtedly enjoy reading "Germany Must Perish", by Theodore Kaufmann. DBC http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED] http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun
At 11:46 AM 8/11/00 -0700, nessie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >For a first hand, eye witness account of von Braun's war crimes as told by >one of his victims, read Dora by Jean Michel, ISBN 0-03-055596-5 > >Michel was a French Resistabce fighter who was captured and wound up a >slave laborer at Camp Dora where the V-2s were built. > Gee. I guess everyone who was in Germany during WW II was either a "Nazi" or a "slave laborer". Anyone in a wartime economy which imposes wage and price controls and commands workers to work in specific industries is really a "slave laborer". The United States government in WW II: A. lied about the fact that it precipitated the attack on Pearl Harbor (see "Day of Deceit") B. imposed comprehensive censorship C. created a huge propaganda bureacracy to "support the war effort" D. violated the civil and constitutional rights or Japanese, German, and Italian residents (and in many cases, American citizens) by arresting them and puttng then in internment camps. E. "mobilized" (i.e., confiscated) industries to make war materials and obscene profits for Daddy Warbucks. F. required workers to work in war industries at government mandated wages, i.e. thus qualifying them as "slave laborers" , too. The Roosevelt/Morgenthau regime was guilty of heinous war crimes and has never been brought to account. I'm really quite sick of the habitual, gratuitous bashing and re-bashing of every person of German identity who was caught up in a tragic and desparate situation, and contrary to U.S. and British war propaganda, a situation NOT entirely of their own making. DBC http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED] http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun - was I WAS DICK CHENEY'S SEX SLAVE'
I didn't say I thought that justice SHOULD belong to the victors--I said it DOES belong to the victors. The victor always dictates the history of the war and passes judgment on acts committed during it...whether that control over events and interpretation is justified or legitimate or not. I could equally have used Mao's dictum that "power grows from the barrel of a gun." Bob - Original Message - From: "Samantha L." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun - was I WAS DICK CHENEY'S SEX SLAVE' > In a message dated 8/11/00 3:46:50 PM Central Daylight Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > But the man was a > > technological genius, beyond doubt. He may well also have been guilty of > > war crimes and crimes against humanity, but justice belongs to the victors, > > and by the time the Nuremberg Trials convened, von Braun and his Paperclip > > team were safely secure in White Sands, New Mexico, and--like so many other > > "former" Nazis who had turned their coats--under the protecting aegis of > the > > United States Government. > > I don't agree that justice belongs to the victors. The guy with the > biggest gun for the moment rules the roost, but that has nothing at all to do > with justice. > > Samantha > http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED] http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun - was I WAS DICK CHENEY'S SEX SLAVE'
You've nicely summed up the Paperclip operation and the role of Von Braun as well. One should note that V.B. also designed spacecraft in the 1930's that were supposed to go to Mars. Much other technology, including that which is used for political, and thought control, as well as spying, etc., owes its existence to developments made by the Germans at the time. One must wonder at times whos hand controls history when we see a country so absolutely rife with genius in everything technological be ultimately defeated by nations that are distant seconds at best. Germany certainly was a marvel, and we are the inheritors of much of what they developed, and certainly have done more in the years since the war to further the aims of the Germans. Too bad this technology will always be tainted by the blood and death perpetrated by the Germans, and every country since them (and before for that matter). On Fri, 11 August 2000, "Robert F. Tatman" wrote: > > *Both* the US and Soviet space programs, and through them every other space > program, relied on German missile technology. The US and the Soviets split > the original Peenemuende team between them, although von Braun did his best > to get as many of his men as possible into the hands of the Americans. > Although the V-2 production facilities in Thuringia fell in the Soviet > sector of Occupied Germany, the cream of the senior production staff > (including the commander of the Mittelwerke and supervisor of the attached > concentration camp) surrendered to the Americans, by design. Every missile > or spaceship launched from this planet since 1945 has been based on the > German designs and design philosophy. Now, it is certainly true that both > Goddard, the American rocketry pioneer, and Tsiolkovsky, the Russian > rocketry pioneer, could have led comparable development operations which > would inevitably have led to highly successful rocket designs, but the fact > remains that it was the Germans, led by von Braun, who prevailed by a quirk > of historical fate. I don't know how history will ultimately judge von > Braun, or for that matter the Americans and Russians who took over the > German research in the name of the Cold War. But the man was a > technological genius, beyond doubt. He may well also have been guilty of > war crimes and crimes against humanity, but justice belongs to the victors, > and by the time the Nuremberg Trials convened, von Braun and his Paperclip > team were safely secure in White Sands, New Mexico, and--like so many other > "former" Nazis who had turned their coats--under the protecting aegis of the > United States Government. > > - Original Message - > From: "Samantha L." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 2:23 PM > Subject: Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun - was I WAS DICK CHENEY'S SEX SLAVE' > > > > In a message dated 8/11/00 1:03:59 PM Central Daylight Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > writes: > > > > > With von Braun on our side - we beat the bastards to the moon which was > > > dream of JFK; but look who takes or tried to take the bows here > > > recently, attempting to use even little John John.so now father and > > > son both dead.and they did take a Gideon Bible to the moon. > > > > Whatever aspirations the US had, if it could not achieve them without the > > aid of Nazis, they weren't worth achieving. Our country did survive in > name, > > but look where we are now? We are a national security state that feeds > its > > own people into the machine of survival. Better that our country risk > > annihilation than lose her soul. > > > http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER > == > CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic > screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are > sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- > directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with > major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. > That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and > always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no > credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. > > Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. > > Archives Available at: > http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html > http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun - was I WAS DICK CHENEY'S SEX SLAVE'
In a message dated 8/11/00 3:46:50 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > But the man was a > technological genius, beyond doubt. He may well also have been guilty of > war crimes and crimes against humanity, but justice belongs to the victors, > and by the time the Nuremberg Trials convened, von Braun and his Paperclip > team were safely secure in White Sands, New Mexico, and--like so many other > "former" Nazis who had turned their coats--under the protecting aegis of the > United States Government. I don't agree that justice belongs to the victors. The guy with the biggest gun for the moment rules the roost, but that has nothing at all to do with justice. Samantha http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED] http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun - was I WAS DICK CHENEY'S SEX SLAVE'
*Both* the US and Soviet space programs, and through them every other space program, relied on German missile technology. The US and the Soviets split the original Peenemuende team between them, although von Braun did his best to get as many of his men as possible into the hands of the Americans. Although the V-2 production facilities in Thuringia fell in the Soviet sector of Occupied Germany, the cream of the senior production staff (including the commander of the Mittelwerke and supervisor of the attached concentration camp) surrendered to the Americans, by design. Every missile or spaceship launched from this planet since 1945 has been based on the German designs and design philosophy. Now, it is certainly true that both Goddard, the American rocketry pioneer, and Tsiolkovsky, the Russian rocketry pioneer, could have led comparable development operations which would inevitably have led to highly successful rocket designs, but the fact remains that it was the Germans, led by von Braun, who prevailed by a quirk of historical fate. I don't know how history will ultimately judge von Braun, or for that matter the Americans and Russians who took over the German research in the name of the Cold War. But the man was a technological genius, beyond doubt. He may well also have been guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity, but justice belongs to the victors, and by the time the Nuremberg Trials convened, von Braun and his Paperclip team were safely secure in White Sands, New Mexico, and--like so many other "former" Nazis who had turned their coats--under the protecting aegis of the United States Government. - Original Message - From: "Samantha L." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun - was I WAS DICK CHENEY'S SEX SLAVE' > In a message dated 8/11/00 1:03:59 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > writes: > > > With von Braun on our side - we beat the bastards to the moon which was > > dream of JFK; but look who takes or tried to take the bows here > > recently, attempting to use even little John John.so now father and > > son both dead.and they did take a Gideon Bible to the moon. > > Whatever aspirations the US had, if it could not achieve them without the > aid of Nazis, they weren't worth achieving. Our country did survive in name, > but look where we are now? We are a national security state that feeds its > own people into the machine of survival. Better that our country risk > annihilation than lose her soul. http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED] http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun - was I WAS DICK CHENEY'S SEX SLAVE'
For a first hand, eye witness account of von Braun's war crimes as told by one of his victims, read Dora by Jean Michel, ISBN 0-03-055596-5 Michel was a French Resistabce fighter who was captured and wound up a slave laborer at Camp Dora where the V-2s were built. http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED] http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Werner von Braun - was I WAS DICK CHENEY'S SEX SLAVE'
In a message dated 8/11/00 1:03:59 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > With von Braun on our side - we beat the bastards to the moon which was > dream of JFK; but look who takes or tried to take the bows here > recently, attempting to use even little John John.so now father and > son both dead.and they did take a Gideon Bible to the moon. Whatever aspirations the US had, if it could not achieve them without the aid of Nazis, they weren't worth achieving. Our country did survive in name, but look where we are now? We are a national security state that feeds its own people into the machine of survival. Better that our country risk annihilation than lose her soul. http://www.akula.com/~donefer/paper/paper.htm In 1944 and 1945, Wernher von Braun's V-2 rockets were causing mass destruction in England and Belgium. Von Braun was Hitler's secret weapon, a man feared greatly by the Allies. - As the 1930's progressed, Wernher von Braun's activity with Nazis grew deeper. He explains his actions later in life: "In 1939 [sic] I was officially demanded to join the National Socialist Party. At this time, I was already Technical Director at Peenemünde The technical work had ... attracted attention at higher and higher levels. Thus, my refusal to join the party would have meant that I would have to abandon the work of my life. My membership in the party did not include any political activity. 8" On the other hand, Dorenberger used an old rule of the Weimar Republic still in use, forcing anyone in the military to abstain from political affiliation. The only Nazi affiliation Dorenberger had was his membership in the German hunting club, leading one to question von Braun's reasoning for joining the party. Dorenberger claimed that he himself was more interested in deer than politics. >From 1950 on, he lived in Huntsville, Alabama working with the army and NASA until he died in 1976. Wernher von Braun went from enemy to national hero because of his involvement in the creation of the Saturn V rocket, the rocket that in 1969 put a man on the moon. Questions about his military allegiances were set aside for the time while he was cast as a national hero. One of the main questions raised by the story of Wernher von Braun is whether a man's achievements should be based on where and why he did something or if it should be based on pure scientific benefit in the long run. Von Braun's story raises some compelling questions relating to this. Ultimately, to this point in history, the V-2 and the ICBM far outweigh the few forays into space made possible by von Braun's rocket technology. --- Samantha http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED] http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
