Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Chavdar Ivanov]

At times I thought of suggesting to draw this up to a close, perhaps move a
few quotes to the offensive section to placate the PC brigade, but it seems
kinda nice to follow this dialogue, which while presenting opposing
opinions is still being held in a very civilised way...

Cheers,

Chavdar


On Mon, 20 Nov 2017 at 21:01 Andy Ruhl  wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 1:27 PM, Rhialto  wrote:
> > You do realise that the term "political correctness" was intruduced as a
> > straw man to make perfectly reasonable arguments look ridiculous?
> > Anybody who invokes that term automatically shows their true colours.
>
> I think it's a notion invented to avoid offending people, by people
> who themselves like to avoid confontation. Which masks facts and true
> debate.
>
> Respect for someone doesn't include agreeing with them. This is what
> is missed in political correctness.
>
> Andy
>

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Steffen Nurpmeso]

Marc Balmer  wrote:
  ..
 |„Wollt Ihr den totalen Krieg?“

 |  — Hitler, Adolf (probably when first introduced to systemd)

But only through the mouth of Joseph Goebbels, then.

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter   he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)

daily CVS update output

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-rw-rw-r--  1 srcmastr  netbsd  54810462 Nov 21 03:04 ls-lRA.gz

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[trebol]

PC It's not about ideology.
PC is not about respecting other people.

PC is the fraud of pretending to be a social justice defender while you 
are doing nothing but attacking other people and bringing attention as if 
you were having an epic fight between Good and Bad when there is absolutely 
nothing. They don't care about the principles of those people, they can 
have the same. What is important is to be able to point at them using the 
rules they invented themselves and they try to impose to others.


This immature behavior is a menace for free of speech, sane social 
interactions, and the discussion every society has to have every day to 
draw a good path for its future. It hasn't to be a statement that could 
offend someone. It could be naming a name, just saying a word.


You have the perfect example from Rhialto:


Anybody who invokes that term automatically shows their true colours.


Don't you see?

Look at the problem here. An adage. And it doesn't matter what the adage
says. The problem is that is from Adolf Hitler. So you don't read it and
think "Look what Hitler said", but instead you panic:

"Look!!, It says Hitler!! They have quotations from Hitler!! I'm 
offended!! PC emergency!!"


This is an operating system project I'm not part of. I'm using it for a 
while, I don't know. But please, take my advise:


The moment you let this crap enter through your door, isn't going to stop.

Now is a game, then the contents of your web pages, censorship of mailing 
lists, even the way you speak in your irc channels.


Regards,
trebol.

I love Fortune && bsd-games

[Swift Griggs]

I love both Fortune and the bsd-games in /usr/games. I've got a lot of 
mileage from them over the years. I know they aren't "needed" and I know 
NetBSD is around for technical reasons, not simply to be "retro". However, 
I gotta say that I really would miss things like rot13 and hack. Some of 
those helped me survive late-night change-control conference calls of 
Doom.


I've rarely seen the current-users list light up like it did this weekend 
over the Hitler-quote thing. Ugh. Puh. Bleh. It's exactly the kind of 
thing I'd like *not* to see on that list (politics, philosophy, and 
religious tripe). Leave them, keep them, move them to -o, or translate 
them into Klingon for all I care, but please please don't mess up or trash 
Fortune and the other *programs* in /usr/games over this ugly little 
scene. They might not be as important as the kernel's I/O scheduler, but 
they are still a nice-and-still-usable part of NetBSD and BSD's history.


-Swift

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Andy Ruhl]

On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 1:27 PM, Rhialto  wrote:
> You do realise that the term "political correctness" was intruduced as a
> straw man to make perfectly reasonable arguments look ridiculous?
> Anybody who invokes that term automatically shows their true colours.

I think it's a notion invented to avoid offending people, by people
who themselves like to avoid confontation. Which masks facts and true
debate.

Respect for someone doesn't include agreeing with them. This is what
is missed in political correctness.

Andy

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Rhialto]

On Sun 19 Nov 2017 at 21:07:39 +0100, Joerg Sonnenberger wrote:
> I call this Bullshit. This is not even Political Correctness, it is part

You do realise that the term "political correctness" was intruduced as a
straw man to make perfectly reasonable arguments look ridiculous?
Anybody who invokes that term automatically shows their true colours.

*plonk*

-Olaf.
-- 
___ Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert  -- Wayland: Those who don't understand X
\X/ rhialto/at/falu.nl  -- are condemned to reinvent it. Poorly.


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Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[David Holland]

On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 08:35:49PM -0500, William D. Jones wrote:
 > > SJW
 > Took this thread long enough to play "those evul Ess Jay DoubleUs" card.

Please keep your partisan politics out of this, both of you. It's a
serious matter.

 > And Hitler's actions in life especially cannot be written off as a
 > difference in opinion, dissent, or otherwise up for debate. The
 > implications of his quotes matter.

YES, THAT'S THE POINT.

-- 
David A. Holland
dholl...@netbsd.org

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Steffen Nurpmeso]

Hauke Fath  wrote:
  ...
 |For better or worse, humanity gets to own Hitler, just like Pol Pot, 

But Pol Pot was (falsely!?!?) guessing he could make his own
nation strong again by driving his own nation, his own "tribe"
back to the basics, to force a "reraise", a "reduce to the max".
There were also other problems, but i would say it was induced by
the total destabilisation of the entire area that unfortunately
has something to do with mostly American politics.

This -- as i understand it -- is in no way to be compared with the
Hitler movement which has always focused on aggression against
a minority and a rise over the head and at the cost of others.
Millions of others (Russians) had to die of starvation because
food was brought "home to the reich" -- a planned and conscious
political decision!  Germans where healthy and nourished even at
the end of war in 1945!  Compare this with 1917 and 1918 where
deficiency diseases were so widespread in Germany.  Unfortunately
all the winners of WWI are to blame for the aftermath of WWI...

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter   he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Steffen Nurpmeso]

m...@netbsd.org wrote:
 |The quotes I removed personally offend me. I assume I've done enough for
 |netbsd to not be considered an evil outsider company who is here to
 |spoil fun.
 |
 |I'm not too excited to contribute to a project that insists on keeping
 |a quote on how women should be stupid by a man who tried to exterminate
 |my family.

But then i want to bring it to your attention that Hitler seems to
have gotten Nietzsche almost completely wrong (like David Holland
said, as far is i understood), and that the person who educed that
quote from Hitler trapped him.  (Which did not save just one
live, though.  And just in case that quote is genuine.)

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter   he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)

Re: iwn failure on -current (XEN3_DOM0)

[Chavdar Ivanov]

I just upgraded my EliteBook laptop with -current from 18th of
November. XEN3_DOM0 again timeouts on ehci in a loop taking about two
minutes, after which it panics with a message about a recursive panic;
no crash dump is generated.

On the other hand my older XEN3_DOM0 from 8.99.5 continues to work
fine with xen.gz 4.8.2, on this I also have iwn0 working as expected
(although not the bridging, of course, I am doing the bridging through
wm0, which works fine - the DOMU can access the Internet through this
bridge, then over to an ICS connection through my W10 laptop, being
used for a fast wifi link between two floors, then the Virgin Media
SH3 etc... ).

So there is some regression as far as Xen is concerned around the USB
subsystem. Again it may be relevant to port-xen@, so I am forwarding
there as well.

Chavdar Ivanov


On 19 November 2017 at 22:21, Chavdar Ivanov  wrote:
> Thanks for the tip!
>
> On Sun, 19 Nov 2017 at 18:31,  wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 11:11:44AM +, Chavdar Ivanov wrote:
>> > Here my point was that iwn used to work under XEN3_DOM0 a few months
>> > ago and is not working now, which may indicate some problem or
>> > regression elsewhere, which was the main reason for my question.
>>
>> 'Git bisect' is a good way to quickly point out issues, you can
>> probably bisect iwn file changes only.
>>
>> > the way, speedtest.net maybe a lame way to test a wifi connection, but
>> > on mine (200mb/s cable) connection, running -current with iwn gives me
>> > about 23mb/s, whereas on the same hardware / dns / router etc. some
>> > Linux gives me about 57 mb/s ( I do get my full about 212mb/s when
>> > running the test over AC7275 wifi from my W10 laptop, so it is not the
>> > infrastructure, with the possible exception that NetBSD runs off a
>> > HDD, whereas the Linux distro off an SSD, but that probably doesn't
>> > matter here. ).
>>
>> it looks like in your scenario:
>> netbsd: 802.11g
>> linux: 802.11n
>> windows : 802.11ac
>>
>> netbsd lacks stack support for 802.11n/ac, but also would need to adapt
>> the driver for it once it happens.



-- 

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Joerg Sonnenberger]

On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 11:27:35PM -0500, Ken Hornstein wrote:
> FWIW, if we are voting, I'm for removing the quotes or moving them to
> the 'alternate' (-o) fortune database.

All the removed Hitler quotes where in that set already. Additionally, a
quote from an American comedian with Jewish family background was
removed, but that one was in the normal set...

Joerg