Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online
petro wrote: Oh come now. You have real recourse against Bill Gates and John Tesh Bill Gates is a questionable case, but there is no doubt that John Tesh should die. if everyone who hates windos puts $10 in a box, you'd need quite a large box. which makes one wonder why the guy is still alive. or why Linus is still alive, given the fact that M$ could easily pay for the most professional contract killers on the globe. I mean: all of them. It really is only the mentally disturbed that kill for any reason other than self defense or other *huge* cause. 10 million dollars is, IMO a huge cause. the only problem I have with this is that it tends to get the figureheads killed. not the biggest assholes, but the somewhat-assholes with a high publicity. instead of learning responsibility, government would most likely cast a couple new protection laws. say, make it illegal to publish a politician's name. "our president has today..."
Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online
On Fri, 24 Nov 2000, Tom Vogt wrote: would most likely cast a couple new protection laws. say, make it illegal to publish a politician's name. "our president has today..." Well, I guess that's *one* way to get political types to support the right to anonymity... Bear
Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online
Eric Cordian wrote: Alan Olsen wrote: [...snip...] He seemed to think that the only target of this would be the government. I think this is a reasonable observation. You really have to be acting under color of authority to strongly alienate enough people, who have so litle recourse against you, that millions will bet a buck on your continued good health in the hopes that an anonymous assassin will prove them wrong and collect the pot. I'm not so sure about this. I've taken part in political demonstrations against private companies I've worked in offices that were picketed or invaded by demonstrators. I've also worked in a building whose windows were broken by a bomb in the street. The bomb wasn't directed against us, but against another business on the other side of the street - the Harrods department store. On another occasion Harrods was bombed in protest against their selling fur. Farms that breed animals for experiments have been attacked and there have been attempts on the lives of the managers and owners of such places. [...snip...] I think that there are more people out there who would go after Bill Gates or John Tesh than there would for various little known public officials. (This could be a case where fame could have an even bigger downside. About six feet down.) Oh come now. You have real recourse against Bill Gates and John Tesh short of killing them. Bill Gates and John Tesh don't claim they have God's authority to kill you if you don't do what they say. They don't order your house raided, and your children terrorized at gunpoint. They don't force you to choose between going to prison or going to war. They don't accuse you of treason and try to have you executed if you tell their dirty little secrets. Gates Tesh may not do that but there are companies that have done - and more importantly there are people who think that companies do behave like that even if they don't. Think of Shell in Nigeria. Or Harlan County, Kentucky. One of the things about AP is, if it works, millions of people with untrue ideas can still get things done. Anyway, the distinction between business and politics is less clear than you make out - or seems less clear to many people in countries outside America. In most places the government is in the pockets of the people with the money - and in most places presidents and governors are quick to join the ranks of the men with the money. Citizens of countries that have experienced the rule of people like, say, Marcos, or Suharto, or Kenyatta, aren't likely to believe that your American companies aren't agents of the US government, and they aren't likely to believe that your American politicians don't have interests in the companies. What happens if millions of people outside the US are pissed off (maybe for no good reason) with the corporate leadership of Exxon or Coca-Cola or Microsoft or MacDonalds? Maybe if only because they are pissed off with the USA and those companies stand for the USA in the minds of others ( however wonderful your USA is someone, somewhere is going to be pissed off with it). The only American politician millions of people have heard of is the President (who is presumably reasonably well-defended). Representatives of big companies make much more likely targets for non-Americans. Anyway, big companies make big targets for some kinds of revolutionaries, as do big fortunes. Some of them like killing the rich. This already happens. Not a lot, but it happens. AP might make it more common. Ken
Re: Jim Bell arrested documents online
Anyway, the distinction between business and politics is less clear than you make out - or seems less clear to many people in countries outside America. In most places the government is in the pockets of the people with the money - and in most places presidents and governors are quick This is a part of official mythology that very few americans escape. I also noticed seemingly intelligent people bending their brains to explain how something that business does is less evil than the same thing done by government. Apparently because businesses do not use guns. They are missing the fact that majority of people never encounter/use guns in their life, and that the principal way of behavioural control is propaganda/ideology. Most of the people in the industrial world are directly and tightly controlled by corporations, not governments. I have seen people that fear their bosses/corporate policies/landlords/ creditors more than they ever feared government - simply because they never had to deal with government on adverse terms. Their lives are not shaped by governments - business does that. That is the reality. But corporations did a great job of propping up the government as the target for frustration, and it shows. Long time ago I read a story about the guy whose job was to be fired: a company would screw up something, and the guy was hired, presented to be the company exec, and then humiliated and fired in front of the customer. Sounds familiar ?
Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online
Alan Olsen wrote: I disagree. I don't believe Jim really was willing to consider the social implications of his scheme. The implications are that in a society where the government has not made personal privacy and private communication illegal, you can't be an asshole to countless millions of people without winding up with a price on your head. This seems to be a natural example of the doctrine that people who make peaceful change impossible, make violent change inevitable. Clearly, the remedy here is for people in power to not act like assholes, rather than to make personal privacy and private communication illegal, as governments seem wont to do. He seemed to think that the only target of this would be the government. I think this is a reasonable observation. You really have to be acting under color of authority to strongly alienate enough people, who have so litle recourse against you, that millions will bet a buck on your continued good health in the hopes that an anonymous assassin will prove them wrong and collect the pot. Think about it. If you had the chance to have people killed without any posibility of capture, who would it be? I can't think of anyone I would have killed. My personal moral system is such that I only think it is reasonable to kill someone if they pose an immediate danger of death or serious injury to oneself, or someone one is obligated to protect, and retreat is impossible. However, I recognize that the world contains many people with different ethical codes, and if they want to issue a Fatwah at the drop of a hat, that is their business and not mine. I think that there are more people out there who would go after Bill Gates or John Tesh than there would for various little known public officials. (This could be a case where fame could have an even bigger downside. About six feet down.) Oh come now. You have real recourse against Bill Gates and John Tesh short of killing them. Bill Gates and John Tesh don't claim they have God's authority to kill you if you don't do what they say. They don't order your house raided, and your children terrorized at gunpoint. They don't force you to choose between going to prison or going to war. They don't accuse you of treason and try to have you executed if you tell their dirty little secrets. I don't think Bill Gates and John Tesh have a thing to worry about from AP. Janet Reno, on the other hand... :) One of the reasons that this country is so fucked up is that few pay attention to what their leaders actually do. You tell them about laws that are already on the books and they don't believe you. They still buy into the myth that America is the "Freest Country in the World(tm)". Well, as ts elliot once observed, what we need is a system so perfect that it does not require that people be good. Any government that requires me to pay attention to what it does, in order to function efficiently, is a lost cause. I mean, I don't have to pay attention to Federal Express for it to perform well. McDonalds manages to make burgers without my participation. I am not mailed a ballot to choose the President of Domino's, and then told that everything is my fault if the guy screws up, or that I have no right to criticize roaches in the pizza if I didn't exercise my right to vote. And what about those people who have lots of money and little or no personal ethics? Say that you have a company whos rival has a bunch of engineers that you want. They won't work for you, so you have them done in. (Or maybe the prosecutors in a big anti-trust trial.) People can hire hit men to do such things now. I don't see piles of dead engineers all over silicon valley. There are only two classes of people the typical person would pay money to see dead. Relatives who piss them off, and government officials who have dishonestly cost them everything they have, and are untouchable because they are operating under color of authority. People hire people to kill their shrewish wives, and to kill witnesses who have put them in prison for 150 years by lying. Disputes with employees, and displeasure over Windows needing frequent rebooting, really don't rise to this level of visceral discontent. Just because you can do something, does not mean that you should. Unlike episodes of "Columbo," very few murders that involve any careful planning are ever solved, and then only if someone rats out the perp. AP would permit vast numbers of strangers to financially support the misfortune of a despised individual, just as small numbers of wealthy non-strangers might decide to do now. It is extremely unlikely it is going to change in the least the "who" or "why" of contract killing. I really don't think everyone is going to start murdering their bosses, their landlords, or their local prosecutor. Which is why the government's overreaction to Jim Bell's speculative essay on ways of combatting tyranny is so telling. "If it doesn't apply
Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online
Oh come now. You have real recourse against Bill Gates and John Tesh Bill Gates is a questionable case, but there is no doubt that John Tesh should die. It is extremely unlikely it is going to change in the least the "who" or "why" of contract killing. I really don't think everyone is going to start murdering their bosses, their landlords, or their local prosecutor. Most people just aren't vicious enough to want to *really* kill someone. Most. Case in point: There are some 80 million gun owners in this country. Some 250+ million guns. Yesterday 79,999,900+ of those gun owners killed no one. It really is only the mentally disturbed that kill for any reason other than self defense or other *huge* cause. 10 million dollars is, IMO a huge cause. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow
