Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[Mirimir]

On 06/30/2020 11:57 AM, Karl wrote:



> Would you rather focus on tearing down the governments, healing them, or
> building something to replace them?

If you replace well enough, they'll fall apart.



> I'm in the USA and somebody mentioned CHAZ earlier, an autonomous secession
> zone that sprouted here, which is inspiring. ...



> Any thoughts?

Blast from the past:
https://anarplex.net/hosted/files/secondrealm/secondrealm.html

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[таракан]

> I'm in the USA and somebody mentioned CHAZ earlier, an autonomous secession 
> zone that sprouted here, which is inspiring. I believe we need reliable 
> secure logging of such things (restricted to the areas the residents want it 
> in) so as to know we can have future discourse around the issues they 
> struggle through. Sustainable public news on them written by residents, and 
> distribution of such news, would help, as well as collaboration between them 
> which could possibly be done with a blockchain wiki synchronized via ham 
> radio, say. I'm not near anything myself.
>
> Any thoughts?

Not sure if CHAZ is the Paris Commune or even could have any relation with it...

Anyway yes in general there is a need for a system which can provide news, 
information - and this could be shaped as a bulletin or a gazette.
In a way that its origin (e.g. authors, publication) could not be tampered with.

In my opinion of there would be a renewal of Cypherpunk movement, they would be 
more or less the sole consumer of their own technology.
Eg they would use the system to brodcast news to each others in such a way that 
news content cannot be altered and that the identity of the authors cannot be 
established.
PKI + internet is certainly not the answer to that. Blockchain + Ham Radio may 
be the right solution.

making robust crypto algos using non-digital technology is not easy but 
surprinsingly it's possible. Such crypto devices uses 'basic' components which 
can be manufactured outside China without too much problems.

So yes a blockchain using ham radio and crypto on non-digital devices may be a 
solution. No PGP here, no PKI - at least in the usual meaning.

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[Karl]

My opinions,

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 3:57 PM таракан 
wrote:

>
> I think the people who are whipping up before breakfast the anonymity
> networks that could save enslaved nations, are doing most of their work in
> private nowadays, to find more success.
>
>
> Are nations really enslaved? Will these anonymity networks can really save
> anyone?
>

What's relevant is that we need ways to escape control, surveillance,
communication isolation, history erasure, misrepresentation,   and that
many many people are skilled at providing solutions to these problems.

Anonymity networks are just an example, but help a lot in doing productive
work and having productive dialogue without being as personally targeted,
when not yet.  I believe we need free people to use them so they can
continue to do the work that only they can do.

I'm personally not using Tor I don't trust in it and I'm sure it's
> completely controlled by all sort of governmental systems and under heavy
> monitoring in all cases.
>

I believe it reduces people finding you and puts a flag on your behavior
for those who do.  I challenge anybody to start forking it and adding a
constant-bandwidth stream of chaff data sent to all peers.

But anyway as you described it, anything such an impenetrable communication
> framework that would be really dangerous for 'the actual system' (eg the
> big thing who decided all the sudden we all had to wear masks all over the
> world)  would be known only by a small amount of people, that's obvious.
> Question remains how these people would get to know each others in a safe
> way ?
>

Do you know the answer?

Isn't digital trust usually built by behavior signed by the same key?

Tools that scrape blockchains for people communicating on them could help.

I'm starting to just talk brazenly in front of the cameras, so when you say
"maybe their own secret agents", I key in because I can find myself thrown
into navigating the space of influencing people who surveil just a little
bit.  Thanks for the reminder to talk.

Would you rather focus on tearing down the governments, healing them, or
building something to replace them?

I'm in the USA and somebody mentioned CHAZ earlier, an autonomous secession
zone that sprouted here, which is inspiring.  I believe we need reliable
secure logging of such things (restricted to the areas the residents want
it in) so as to know we can have future discourse around the issues they
struggle through.  Sustainable public news on them written by residents,
and distribution of such news, would help, as well as collaboration between
them which could possibly be done with a blockchain wiki synchronized via
ham radio, say.  I'm not near anything myself.

Any thoughts?

I could use some help setting up PGP and SSL pinning and finding access to
other communication channels.  Interested in being a scuttlebutt buddy or
anything?  Maybe I should try to set up a mastodon server or something.  I
wonder what's on a freedombox nowadays.

K

There is proof inside many peoples' electronics.  Proof that a marketing
group would contract development of a frightening virus.  A virus that
responds to peoples' keystrokes and browsing habits, and changes what
people see on their devices.  A virus that alters political behavior en
masse, for profit.

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[Zig the N.g]

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 02:14:26AM +, таракан wrote:
> About the fascist farce and the "law of the masks" over the planet,

Hey hey, Lord Of The Masks :)


>  this is like the "Reichstag Fire" technique... you put the virus somewhere 
> (by accident or by malevolence) and you start to use it as a pretext to make 
> the whole world submitting to your laws and you blame normal people for 
> propagating the infection because they refuse to wear "the mask".
> 
> We live in a small community of 7 billion souls, all provided with a 
> smartphone and driven by collective fears and psychoses.
> 
> That's hilarious to see all these idiots with their useless masks who think 
> they're doing something great. If there was such a lethal virus, there would 
> be piles of bodies in the streets everywhere by now.

In the context of virii, wearing a mask apparently reduces the effective 
"spittle transmission" range, if -you- are infected - which is a potential 
benefit to those you may come 'close' to.

If this virus were "bad", then wearing masks may well be a community service, 
and not doing so could be taken as Georgian Guidestones programming results...


> It's just one more of these "mutating" viruses probably resulting from a 
> combination of pollution, greed, malevolence, human experimentation and other 
> similar manipulations.
> 
> And so what are we doing about that? Nothing... We let them imposing their 
> pseudo-scientific laws with their limited knowledge of what really virus 
> are...
> 
> By now many people start to understand that the Covid-19 isn't exactly a 
> biological virus... more a virus in the mind itself... collective delusion 
> and dementia.




Have to agree that the mind is the primary virus.

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[Alexander Protector]

>
> > таракан :
> > It can be argued that only 'criminals' should care about changing their
> identity but if you are targeted by a fascist regime, getting a new ID is a
> question of life and death.
>
Totally agree.

 > Imagine a real fascist power taking control of the entire planet
It has ALREADY happened.


> > how much time they need to seek and destroy opponents or individuals
> listed as potential dangers? maybe just one hour...
>
We are lucky only in that 'they' themselves (members of the fascist power)
hate each other and devour each other. And already now (you need
examples??), they destroy every REALLY threatening their power persons
(ideologically / psychologically / socially = reputation, etc.).


таракан :

> My understanding of cypherpunks is that they are/were a group of people
> trying to defeat evil things such as, indeed, Clearview and using their
> deep knowledge of cryptography to counter the use of digital technologies
> by a fascist power (imagine the Third Reich equipped with computers...)
>
> Tracking/Controlling people isn't really knew but let us say there was
> always ... ways to escape... to find another land, another ID, where there
> was no question.
>
> Think about the fictional character of Jean Valjean in "Les
> Misérables"(the book by Victor Hugo) ...
> As a convict he wore a mark on the arm, identifying him and had his
> infamous condition as a former *forcat* noted in his passport. This
> doesn't prevented him to become a notable, a rich entrepreuneur named
> Monsieur Madeleine.
>
> The action is at the beginning of the XIX century in Post-revolutionary
> France.
>
> Now imagine the same man in ... 2020... an escaped forcat... how can he
> live?, how can he change his identity? How can he transfer funds?  Anything
> he will do, any move he will make will be noticed, tracked, recorded. The
> law enforcement will look at him everywhere , in all possible databases and
> if he wants to have a new French passport "the hard way", he shall have to
> tamper protected memory and insert false the records inside a biometric
> passport, which is extremely difficult. Corruption and social enginering
> may not work any more and making fake French passport should involve deep
> knowledge of cryptography...
>
> Who can do this? Only Cypherpunks.
>
> It can be argued that only 'criminals' should care about changing their
> identity but if you are targeted by a fascist regime, getting a new ID is a
> question of life and death.
>
>  yet to my understanding, escaping and defeating the net which is building
> itself, making the world as a gigantic jail, should be the mission of
> cypherpunks, or to whatever organization that would succeed to them.
>
> Imagine a *real* fascist power taking control of the entire planet , how
> much time they need to seek and destroy opponents or individuals listed as
> potential dangers? *maybe just one hour*...
>
>

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 07:23:34PM +, таракан wrote:
> My understanding of cypherpunks is that they are/were a group of people 
> trying to defeat evil things such as, indeed, Clearview and using their deep 
> knowledge of cryptography to counter the use of digital technologies by a 
> fascist power (imagine the Third Reich equipped with computers...)
> 
> Tracking/Controlling people isn't really knew but let us say there was always 
> ... ways to escape... to find another land, another ID, where there was no 
> question.


We ought remember that the world is ever changing, intentions ever in play - 
the Covid event is cause for some to push for their "fascist utopia", with 
"immunity" passes/passports, human tracking, and literally global per human 
tracking.

Certain freedoms and localities of exemption from the past, are all (afaict) 
under attack.

I.e., we must remain more than vigilant, but pro-active, and ideally consider 
those beyond ourselves - if all my actual neighbours are tracked/monitored, 
then I am left standing out in the crowd as the odd one out, the one to 
literally target.

On this basis, we have no real option but to establish freedom, and the right 
to privacy, for all.  Any exception will be used against us.

   I do not accept the giving up of the right to privacy.



> Think about the fictional character of Jean Valjean in "Les Misérables"(the 
> book by Victor Hugo) ...
> As a convict he wore a mark on the arm, identifying him and had his infamous 
> condition as a former forcat noted in his passport. This doesn't prevented 
> him to become a notable, a rich entrepreuneur named Monsieur Madeleine.
> 
> The action is at the beginning of the XIX century in Post-revolutionary 
> France.
> 
> Now imagine the same man in ... 2020... an escaped forcat... how can he 
> live?, how can he change his identity? How can he transfer funds? Anything he 
> will do, any move he will make will be noticed, tracked, recorded. The law 
> enforcement will look at him everywhere , in all possible databases and if he 
> wants to have a new French passport "the hard way", he shall have to tamper 
> protected memory and insert false the records inside a biometric passport, 
> which is extremely difficult. Corruption and social enginering may not work 
> any more and making fake French passport should involve deep knowledge of 
> cryptography...


Yes, and implicit in the words you use here, is an acquiescence.

Consequent to acquiescence, is "usage by tptb".

Biometric ID will never be limited to a "secure" chip in your passport - the 
centralised beast computer will instantaneously confirm you, regardless of 
document/chip you carry.


> Who can do this? Only Cypherpunks.


What you're saying is true, but unfortunately entirely insufficient.  If I 
believed that a master passport hacker would provide sufficient escape from the 
beast, I woul personally become one.

But that would be almost useless.  Why?  Because each ID hack is a temporary 
(at best!) plugging of one hole in the bucket.

And this plugging of holes is EXACTLY what the powers that be want competent 
people to be doing.  Why?  Because they are left relatively free to go on and 
enslave the entire world, and so ultimately we few stand out in the crowd of 
compliant sheeple anyway.

Systemically for the sociopaths, pathways of courageous challenge achieving 
limited and ever temporary results for passionate and principled individuals, 
is a very good thing for sociopaths - these "plug a hole in the bucket" 
"opportunities" are EXACTLY what the oligarch sociopath ordered.

Today's "valiant hacker" is yesterday's valiant Knight of the realm.


> It can be argued that only 'criminals' should care about changing their 
> identity but if you are targeted by a fascist regime, getting a new ID is a 
> question of life and death.
> 
> yet to my understanding, escaping and defeating the net which is building 
> itself, making the world as a gigantic jail, should be the mission of 
> cypherpunks, or to whatever organization that would succeed to them.
> 
> Imagine a real fascist power taking control of the entire planet , how much 
> time they need to seek and destroy opponents or individuals listed as 
> potential dangers? maybe just one hour...


Yes this is what we must realise - we have no option but to handle, truly 
handle, the whole system.

What to do?

We must establish certain fundamental human rights as inalienable:

   - privacy

   - travel

   - private and anonymous travel

   - speech

   - survival - the right to do those things needed for our survival - collect 
water, grow food and medicine, build housing, make things, trade


Let's create our shared world,

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[таракан]

About the fascist farce and the "law of the masks" over the planet,
 this is like the "Reichstag Fire" technique... you put the virus somewhere (by 
accident or by malevolence) and you start to use it as a pretext to make the 
whole world submitting to your laws and you blame normal people for propagating 
the infection because they refuse to wear "the mask".

We live in a small community of 7 billion souls, all provided with a smartphone 
and driven by collective fears and psychoses.

That's hilarious to see all these idiots with their useless masks who think 
they're doing something great. If there was such a lethal virus, there would be 
piles of bodies in the streets everywhere by now.

It's just one more of these "mutating" viruses probably resulting from a 
combination of pollution, greed, malevolence, human experimentation and other 
similar manipulations.

And so what are we doing about that? Nothing... We let them imposing their 
pseudo-scientific laws with their limited knowledge of what really virus are...

By now many people start to understand that the Covid-19 isn't exactly a 
biological virus... more a virus in the mind itself... collective delusion and 
dementia.

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[таракан]

> I think the people who are whipping up before breakfast the anonymity 
> networks that could save enslaved nations, are doing most of their work in 
> private nowadays, to find more success.

Are nations really enslaved? Will these anonymity networks can really save 
anyone?

I'm personally not using Tor I don't trust in it and I'm sure it's completely 
controlled by all sort of governmental systems and under heavy monitoring in 
all cases.

But anyway as you described it, anything such an impenetrable communication 
framework that would be really dangerous for 'the actual system' (eg the big 
thing who decided all the sudden we all had to wear masks all over the world) 
would be known only by a small amount of people, that's obvious. Question 
remains how these people would get to know each others in a safe way ?

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[Karl]

I can't speak for this list, but since I am on my email right now:

I think the people who are whipping up before breakfast the anonymity
networks that could save enslaved nations, are doing most of their work in
private nowadays, to find more success.

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 3:24 PM таракан 
wrote:

> My understanding of cypherpunks is that they are/were a group of people
> trying to defeat evil things such as, indeed, Clearview and using their
> deep knowledge of cryptography to counter the use of digital technologies
> by a fascist power (imagine the Third Reich equipped with computers...)
>
> Tracking/Controlling people isn't really knew but let us say there was
> always ... ways to escape... to find another land, another ID, where there
> was no question.
>
> Think about the fictional character of Jean Valjean in "Les
> Misérables"(the book by Victor Hugo) ...
> As a convict he wore a mark on the arm, identifying him and had his
> infamous condition as a former *forcat* noted in his passport. This
> doesn't prevented him to become a notable, a rich entrepreuneur named
> Monsieur Madeleine.
>
> The action is at the beginning of the XIX century in Post-revolutionary
> France.
>
> Now imagine the same man in ... 2020... an escaped forcat... how can he
> live?, how can he change his identity? How can he transfer funds?  Anything
> he will do, any move he will make will be noticed, tracked, recorded. The
> law enforcement will look at him everywhere , in all possible databases and
> if he wants to have a new French passport "the hard way", he shall have to
> tamper protected memory and insert false the records inside a biometric
> passport, which is extremely difficult. Corruption and social enginering
> may not work any more and making fake French passport should involve deep
> knowledge of cryptography...
>
> Who can do this? Only Cypherpunks.
>
> It can be argued that only 'criminals' should care about changing their
> identity but if you are targeted by a fascist regime, getting a new ID is a
> question of life and death.
>
>  yet to my understanding, escaping and defeating the net which is building
> itself, making the world as a gigantic jail, should be the mission of
> cypherpunks, or to whatever organization that would succeed to them.
>
> Imagine a *real* fascist power taking control of the entire planet , how
> much time they need to seek and destroy opponents or individuals listed as
> potential dangers? *maybe just one hour*...
>
>
>
>
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Monday, 29 June 2020 г., 21:44, Karl  wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 2:43 PM Karl  wrote:
>
>> Just adding on here,
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 26, 2020, 10:13 PM coderman  wrote:
>>
>>> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
>>> On Friday, June 26, 2020 11:54 PM, таракан <
>>> cryptoanalyz...@protonmail.com> wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>> My understanding of Cypherpunks is - as per their Manifesto - that they
>>> are trying to build privacy in a world where privacy is becoming a crime.
>>>
>>> I thought recently that the biggest 'weapon' against a fascism regime
>>> would be to create the inability for that fascist regime to track, locate,
>>> monitor and spy someone.
>>>
>>>
>>> in the words of every hacker ever: "What's your threat model?"
>>>
>>> nation state attackers are fairly infallible, unless you're personally
>>> gifted and/or well resourced...
>>>
>>
>> There are different degrees of being targeted.  If you can stay
>> uninteresting, there is still lots of value.  (it's also quite inspiring to
>> see targeted people using privacy technology, as not everyone is free to:
>> and I imagine this helps talk to others without endangering them)
>>
>> I walk in the street right now. Nobody knows who I am.
>>>
>>>
>>> check out Clearview AI - and remember this is a commercial,
>>> non-classified effort!
>>>  E.g.:
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/18/technology/clearview-privacy-facial-recognition.html
>>> , https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/clearview-app-privacy-1.5447420
>>>
>>
>> Note that many are pausing on facial recognition now due to authority
>> abuse.  The OP would be a dot in a database who might be wearing a
>> coronavirus mask and is associated only with where he walks.
>>
>>> My SIM card isn't linked to any ID (true).
>>>
>>>
>>> check out "The Find", and other techniques that are designed to work
>>> against burner phones; they attack pattern of life data exhaust across all
>>> cell tower radios in addition to targeted attacks against specific baseband
>>> chipsets of "selected" targets
>>>
>>
>> Sounds like you need a lot of additional data to build a profile.
>>
>> My phone cannot track me because it hasn'\t a GPS and so on ...
>>>
>>>
>>> note that tower based triangulation is nearly as effective as GPS, in
>>> terms of geolocation privacy risk.
>>>
>>
>> Effective, but less effective.
>>
>> I like to keep a phone on hand bought from some physical store that sells
>> a lot of them, with its antennas and ideally radio 

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[таракан]

My understanding of cypherpunks is that they are/were a group of people trying 
to defeat evil things such as, indeed, Clearview and using their deep knowledge 
of cryptography to counter the use of digital technologies by a fascist power 
(imagine the Third Reich equipped with computers...)

Tracking/Controlling people isn't really knew but let us say there was always 
... ways to escape... to find another land, another ID, where there was no 
question.

Think about the fictional character of Jean Valjean in "Les Misérables"(the 
book by Victor Hugo) ...
As a convict he wore a mark on the arm, identifying him and had his infamous 
condition as a former forcat noted in his passport. This doesn't prevented him 
to become a notable, a rich entrepreuneur named Monsieur Madeleine.

The action is at the beginning of the XIX century in Post-revolutionary France.

Now imagine the same man in ... 2020... an escaped forcat... how can he live?, 
how can he change his identity? How can he transfer funds? Anything he will do, 
any move he will make will be noticed, tracked, recorded. The law enforcement 
will look at him everywhere , in all possible databases and if he wants to have 
a new French passport "the hard way", he shall have to tamper protected memory 
and insert false the records inside a biometric passport, which is extremely 
difficult. Corruption and social enginering may not work any more and making 
fake French passport should involve deep knowledge of cryptography...

Who can do this? Only Cypherpunks.

It can be argued that only 'criminals' should care about changing their 
identity but if you are targeted by a fascist regime, getting a new ID is a 
question of life and death.

yet to my understanding, escaping and defeating the net which is building 
itself, making the world as a gigantic jail, should be the mission of 
cypherpunks, or to whatever organization that would succeed to them.

Imagine a real fascist power taking control of the entire planet , how much 
time they need to seek and destroy opponents or individuals listed as potential 
dangers? maybe just one hour...

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Monday, 29 June 2020 г., 21:44, Karl  wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 2:43 PM Karl  wrote:
>
>> Just adding on here,
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 26, 2020, 10:13 PM coderman  wrote:
>>
>>> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
>>> On Friday, June 26, 2020 11:54 PM, таракан  
>>> wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
 My understanding of Cypherpunks is - as per their Manifesto - that they 
 are trying to build privacy in a world where privacy is becoming a crime.

 I thought recently that the biggest 'weapon' against a fascism regime 
 would be to create the inability for that fascist regime to track, locate, 
 monitor and spy someone.
>>>
>>> in the words of every hacker ever: "What's your threat model?"
>>>
>>> nation state attackers are fairly infallible, unless you're personally 
>>> gifted and/or well resourced...
>>
>> There are different degrees of being targeted. If you can stay 
>> uninteresting, there is still lots of value. (it's also quite inspiring to 
>> see targeted people using privacy technology, as not everyone is free to: 
>> and I imagine this helps talk to others without endangering them)
>>
 I walk in the street right now. Nobody knows who I am.
>>>
>>> check out Clearview AI - and remember this is a commercial, non-classified 
>>> effort!
>>> E.g.: 
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/18/technology/clearview-privacy-facial-recognition.html
>>>  , https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/clearview-app-privacy-1.5447420
>>
>> Note that many are pausing on facial recognition now due to authority abuse. 
>> The OP would be a dot in a database who might be wearing a coronavirus mask 
>> and is associated only with where he walks.
>>
 My SIM card isn't linked to any ID (true).
>>>
>>> check out "The Find", and other techniques that are designed to work 
>>> against burner phones; they attack pattern of life data exhaust across all 
>>> cell tower radios in addition to targeted attacks against specific baseband 
>>> chipsets of "selected" targets
>>
>> Sounds like you need a lot of additional data to build a profile.
>>
 My phone cannot track me because it hasn'\t a GPS and so on ...
>>>
>>> note that tower based triangulation is nearly as effective as GPS, in terms 
>>> of geolocation privacy risk.
>>
>> Effective, but less effective.
>>
>> I like to keep a phone on hand bought from some physical store that sells a 
>> lot of them, with its antennas and ideally radio chips removed or grounded, 
>> before it is first turned on. I like to add a chain inside and keep the 
>> device chained to me. I have seen such devices do freaky things one learns 
>> to prevent, like update their system time over bluetooth. I have found them 
>> to be reliable secure storage for now.
>>
 I know that with the time that sort of life will be harder and harder. 
 Hence I feel it is a noble 

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[Karl]

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 2:43 PM Karl  wrote:

> Just adding on here,
>
> On Fri, Jun 26, 2020, 10:13 PM coderman  wrote:
>
>> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
>> On Friday, June 26, 2020 11:54 PM, таракан <
>> cryptoanalyz...@protonmail.com> wrote:
>> ...
>>
>> My understanding of Cypherpunks is - as per their Manifesto - that they
>> are trying to build privacy in a world where privacy is becoming a crime.
>>
>> I thought recently that the biggest 'weapon' against a fascism regime
>> would be to create the inability for that fascist regime to track, locate,
>> monitor and spy someone.
>>
>>
>> in the words of every hacker ever: "What's your threat model?"
>>
>> nation state attackers are fairly infallible, unless you're personally
>> gifted and/or well resourced...
>>
>
> There are different degrees of being targeted.  If you can stay
> uninteresting, there is still lots of value.  (it's also quite inspiring to
> see targeted people using privacy technology, as not everyone is free to:
> and I imagine this helps talk to others without endangering them)
>
> I walk in the street right now. Nobody knows who I am.
>>
>>
>> check out Clearview AI - and remember this is a commercial,
>> non-classified effort!
>>  E.g.:
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/18/technology/clearview-privacy-facial-recognition.html
>> , https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/clearview-app-privacy-1.5447420
>>
>
> Note that many are pausing on facial recognition now due to authority
> abuse.  The OP would be a dot in a database who might be wearing a
> coronavirus mask and is associated only with where he walks.
>
>> My SIM card isn't linked to any ID (true).
>>
>>
>> check out "The Find", and other techniques that are designed to work
>> against burner phones; they attack pattern of life data exhaust across all
>> cell tower radios in addition to targeted attacks against specific baseband
>> chipsets of "selected" targets
>>
>
> Sounds like you need a lot of additional data to build a profile.
>
> My phone cannot track me because it hasn'\t a GPS and so on ...
>>
>>
>> note that tower based triangulation is nearly as effective as GPS, in
>> terms of geolocation privacy risk.
>>
>
> Effective, but less effective.
>
> I like to keep a phone on hand bought from some physical store that sells
> a lot of them, with its antennas and ideally radio chips removed or
> grounded, before it is first turned on.  I like to add a chain inside and
> keep the device chained to me.  I have seen such devices do freaky things
> one learns to prevent, like update their system time over bluetooth.  I
> have found them to be reliable secure storage for now.
>
>> I know that with the time that sort of life will be harder and harder.
>> Hence I feel it is a noble task to build a system where people can live a
>> normal life and stay anonymous - as they want.
>>
>>
>> indeed! as mentioned before:
>>
>> first deploy encryption to kill passive Eve's ears.
>>  then keying Hardened end-to-end to avoid active Mallory in the Middle.
>>   finally, harden Physical Security against burglary and rubber brutes...
>>
>
> All things people have worked hard on but not quite normalized.  Don't
> forget EMI.
>
>> Interesting enugh soon there will be Quantum crypto, and maybe NSA has
>> already it.
>> How long can we trust these good old programs such as PGP?  RSA wouldn't
>> last a long time against a quantum computer ...
>>
>>
>> side benefit of privacy enhancing technologies like Fully Homomorphic
>> Encryption: they're resistant to quantum attacks (e,g. Post-Quantum ready
>> crypto :)
>>
>> C.f.: https://github.com/homenc/HElib ,
>> https://github.com/IBM/fhe-toolkit-macos , etc.
>>
>
> Thank you for this.  Inspiring.  Missing from pqcrypto.org .
>
> Karl
>
> There is proof inside many peoples' electronics.  Proof that a marketing
> group would contract development of a frightening virus.  A virus that
> responds to peoples' keystrokes and browsing habits, and changes what
> people see on their devices.  A virus that alters political behavior en
> masse, for profit.
> There is proof inside many peoples' electronics.  Proof that a marketing
> group would contract development of a frightening virus.  A virus that
> responds to peoples' keystrokes and browsing habits, and changes what
> people see on their devices.  A virus that alters political behavior en
> masse, for profit.
>

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[Karl]

Just adding on here,

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020, 10:13 PM coderman  wrote:

> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Friday, June 26, 2020 11:54 PM, таракан 
> wrote:
> ...
>
> My understanding of Cypherpunks is - as per their Manifesto - that they
> are trying to build privacy in a world where privacy is becoming a crime.
>
> I thought recently that the biggest 'weapon' against a fascism regime
> would be to create the inability for that fascist regime to track, locate,
> monitor and spy someone.
>
>
> in the words of every hacker ever: "What's your threat model?"
>
> nation state attackers are fairly infallible, unless you're personally
> gifted and/or well resourced...
>

There are different degrees of being targeted.  If you can stay
uninteresting, there is still lots of value.  (it's also quite inspiring to
see targeted people using privacy technology, as not everyone is free to:
and I imagine this helps talk to others without endangering them)

I walk in the street right now. Nobody knows who I am.
>
>
> check out Clearview AI - and remember this is a commercial, non-classified
> effort!
>  E.g.:
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/18/technology/clearview-privacy-facial-recognition.html
> , https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/clearview-app-privacy-1.5447420
>

Note that many are pausing on facial recognition now due to authority
abuse.  The OP would be a dot in a database who might be wearing a
coronavirus mask and is associated only with where he walks.

> My SIM card isn't linked to any ID (true).
>
>
> check out "The Find", and other techniques that are designed to work
> against burner phones; they attack pattern of life data exhaust across all
> cell tower radios in addition to targeted attacks against specific baseband
> chipsets of "selected" targets
>

Sounds like you need a lot of additional data to build a profile.

My phone cannot track me because it hasn'\t a GPS and so on ...
>
>
> note that tower based triangulation is nearly as effective as GPS, in
> terms of geolocation privacy risk.
>

Effective, but less effective.

I like to keep a phone on hand bought from some physical store that sells a
lot of them, with its antennas and ideally radio chips removed or grounded,
before it is first turned on.  I like to add a chain inside and keep the
device chained to me.  I have seen such devices do freaky things one learns
to prevent, like update their system time over bluetooth.  I have found
them to be reliable secure storage for now.

> I know that with the time that sort of life will be harder and harder.
> Hence I feel it is a noble task to build a system where people can live a
> normal life and stay anonymous - as they want.
>
>
> indeed! as mentioned before:
>
> first deploy encryption to kill passive Eve's ears.
>  then keying Hardened end-to-end to avoid active Mallory in the Middle.
>   finally, harden Physical Security against burglary and rubber brutes...
>

All things people have worked hard on but not quite normalized.  Don't
forget EMI.

> Interesting enugh soon there will be Quantum crypto, and maybe NSA has
> already it.
> How long can we trust these good old programs such as PGP?  RSA wouldn't
> last a long time against a quantum computer ...
>
>
> side benefit of privacy enhancing technologies like Fully Homomorphic
> Encryption: they're resistant to quantum attacks (e,g. Post-Quantum ready
> crypto :)
>
> C.f.: https://github.com/homenc/HElib ,
> https://github.com/IBM/fhe-toolkit-macos , etc.
>

Thank you for this.  Inspiring.  Missing from pqcrypto.org .

Karl

There is proof inside many peoples' electronics.  Proof that a marketing
group would contract development of a frightening virus.  A virus that
responds to peoples' keystrokes and browsing habits, and changes what
people see on their devices.  A virus that alters political behavior en
masse, for profit.
There is proof inside many peoples' electronics.  Proof that a marketing
group would contract development of a frightening virus.  A virus that
responds to peoples' keystrokes and browsing habits, and changes what
people see on their devices.  A virus that alters political behavior en
masse, for profit.

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[Karl]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020, 8:28 PM Shawn K. Quinn  wrote:

> On 6/26/20 18:19, таракан wrote:
> > I am a Mathematician and involved in "industrial" cryptography.
> > However, I am interested in the Cypherpunk movement as described by
> > the Cypherpunk's manifesto.
> >
> > I am unsure if this mailing list still relates to the original
> > Cypherpunk movement... Obviously it contains many inordinate
> > messages containing vulgar terms.
>
> I'm still scratching my head wondering what  flagrant racism,
> antisemitism, etc have to do with the cypherpunk movement and/or
> securing technology through encryption.


I see this behavior that spreads arbitrary blame of groups, and casts the
forum to observers as holding such blame prominently, in other open
channels on the internet.  Is this something you see?


I see
> the ideal form of the cypherpunk movement as egalitarian, where those of
> all ethnicities and backgrounds are treated equally and given the same
> chance to participate in beneficial social and political change. Yes,
> this specifically includes Jews and people of color, as well as LGBTQ+
> populations and other marginalized groups.
>

As someone who has participated in stimulating the disruptive behaviors, it
is relieving to hear words countering them.  Part of me dreams of making a
bot to do so.

Honestly, if you're going to shut out some people, or use exclusionary
> language such as well-recognized slurs that are avoided by people who
> use the word "fuck" like they would use salt and pepper on bland food,
> then you're no better than the authorities you pretend to hate. United
> we stand, divided we fall.
>

This list is not about harm.

Karl Semich

>
There is proof inside many peoples' electronics.  Proof that a marketing
group would contract development of a frightening virus.  A virus that
responds to peoples' keystrokes and browsing habits, and changes what
people see on their devices.  A virus that alters political behavior en
masse, for profit.

>

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On 6/27/20 06:10, Bob Hettinga wrote:
> Was Tim May.
> 
> I suggest you go find him in the Usenet and cypherpunk archives, and
> read what he said himself.

I'm familiar with what he said. I believe it more likely than not that
he would roll over in his grave over the antisemitic and racist cesspool
this list has become over the past few years.

> Come back after you’ve uncurled your hair.

My hair is straight, always has been.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[Bob Hettinga]

> On Jun 26, 2020, at 8:28 PM, Shawn K. Quinn  wrote:
> 
> the ideal form of the cypherpunk

Was Tim May. 

I suggest you go find him in the Usenet and cypherpunk archives, and read what 
he said himself. 

Come back after you’ve uncurled your hair. 

Cheers,
RAH
Who was lit on fire a time or two here, himself, Itellyawhut…

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On 6/26/20 23:30, 

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[coderman]

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Friday, June 26, 2020 11:54 PM, таракан  
wrote:
...

> My understanding of Cypherpunks is - as per their Manifesto - that they are 
> trying to build privacy in a world where privacy is becoming a crime.
>
> I thought recently that the biggest 'weapon' against a fascism regime would 
> be to create the inability for that fascist regime to track, locate, monitor 
> and spy someone.

in the words of every hacker ever: "What's your threat model?"

nation state attackers are fairly infallible, unless you're personally gifted 
and/or well resourced...

> I walk in the street right now. Nobody knows who I am.

check out Clearview AI - and remember this is a commercial, non-classified 
effort!
E.g.: 
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/18/technology/clearview-privacy-facial-recognition.html
 , https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/clearview-app-privacy-1.5447420

> My neighbor doesn't know my name. I rent a flat without any ID. Nobody knows 
> my name.

finding the friendly landlord landlady who likes cash, month to month, is 
great. not that digital payments are not cash equivalents, however!

> My SIM card isn't linked to any ID (true).

check out "The Find", and other techniques that are designed to work against 
burner phones; they attack pattern of life data exhaust across all cell tower 
radios in addition to targeted attacks against specific baseband chipsets of 
"selected" targets

> My credit card isn't my own credit card but belongs to someone who doesn't 
> know me really. I get paid in Bitcoins. I go to a local shop and get cash 
> against BTC without showing any ID.

next up, employ a mixer / tumbler when transacting BTC to avoid deanonymization 
attacks against the network itself. :P
E.g. https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver , etc...

> My phone cannot track me because it hasn'\t a GPS and so on ...

note that tower based triangulation is nearly as effective as GPS, in terms of 
geolocation privacy risk.

> I know that with the time that sort of life will be harder and harder. Hence 
> I feel it is a noble task to build a system where people can live a normal 
> life and stay anonymous - as they want.

indeed! as mentioned before:

first deploy encryption to kill passive Eve's ears.
then keying Hardened end-to-end to avoid active Mallory in the Middle.
finally, harden Physical Security against burglary and rubber brutes...

> Interesting enough soon there will be Quantum crypto, and maybe NSA has 
> already it.
> How long can we trust these good old programs such as PGP? RSA wouldn't last 
> a long time against a quantum computer ...

side benefit of privacy enhancing technologies like Fully Homomorphic 
Encryption: they're resistant to quantum attacks (e,g. Post-Quantum ready 
crypto :)

C.f.: https://github.com/homenc/HElib , 
https://github.com/IBM/fhe-toolkit-macos , etc.

best regards,

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[Mirimir]

On 06/26/2020 10:05 PM, Punk-Stasi 2.0 wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 23:54:01 +
> таракан  wrote:
> 
>> Well I guess Cypherpunks aren't necessarily trying to destroy governments, 
>> there are plenty of organizations doing that very well... especially their 
>> own secret services.
>>
>> My understanding of Cypherpunks is - as per their Manifesto - that they are 
>> trying to build privacy in a world where privacy is becoming a crime.
> 
> 
>   https://www.activism.net/cypherpunk/crypto-anarchy.html
> 
>   
> ..
>   Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
>   tc...@netcom.com   | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>   408-688-5409   | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
>   W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA  | black markets, collapse of governments.
>   Higher Power: 2^756839 | PGP Public Key: by arrangement.

Yeah, that's a decent list. As I've understood it, however, "collapse of
governments" is the expected result, once the rest are effectively in
place. Eliminating a particular government through armed struggle has
typically led either to another government, or to a failed state. But if
you create the basis of functional anarchy, government is superfluous.

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[recondite]

There's some in the aether somewhere. 

The vulgarity is a side effect of free speech. But me, I'm fine with it. Would 
much rather be able to call a spade a spade instead of guessing who is what in 
the kayfabe of normalcy. 

But you're right a true cypher punk wouldn't be disgussing plans to subvert 
government on an open message board

Jun 26, 2020, 18:19 by cryptoanalyz...@protonmail.com:

> I am a Mathematician and involved in "industrial" cryptography.
> However, I am interested in the Cypherpunk movement as described by the 
> Cypherpunk's manifesto.
>
> I am unsure if this mailing list still relates to the original Cypherpunk 
> movement...
> Obviously it contains many inordinate messages containing vulgar terms.
>
> I also do believe that a public mailing list would be the last place on earth 
> Cypherpunks would choose to meet and discuss but who knows?
>
> ---
> Crypto
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> CRYPTOANALYZER
> --
>
>
> Sent from > ProtonMail > , encrypted email based in 
> Switzerland.
>
> Sent with > ProtonMail >  Secure Email.
>
>

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[Mirimir]

On 06/26/2020 06:31 PM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 26, 2020, 21:28 Shawn K. Quinn  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Fucking love you, Shawn.  F words for you, hahahaha!!!  <3
> 
> But, sorry, moderation in our specific case would be censorship...  Who, in
> this world or in all the other ones, would accept a message of mine, for
> example?  I was and I am a moderator in a few other lists, so I do not
> trust the other moderators for good personal reasons.  I can be useful, but
> not 100% fair without all the informations behind a single message.

Yes, that's exactly it.

> It can be bullshit, but it can be someone sincerely asking for help.  And
> not all the moderators are good persons.  Do you understand my sad point of
> view?  :-/

I do, anyway. And I gotta say, I'm happy to see _you_ posting again.
I've been very worried about you.

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[Mirimir]

On 06/26/2020 04:54 PM, таракан wrote:



> My understanding of Cypherpunks is - as per their Manifesto - that they are 
> trying to build privacy in a world where privacy is becoming a crime.
> 
> I thought recently that the biggest 'weapon' against a fascism regime would 
> be to create the inability for that fascist regime to track, locate, monitor 
> and spy someone.

That's pretty much what I'm still up to.

Regarding all the crap, cypherpunks lists had just as much back in the
90s. And crap -- however that shows up for you -- is pretty much
unavoidable, for any list, site or system that doesn't censor. Consider
Freenet, for example. Or Tor onion sites.

The point is that you can filter the list however you like. Or subscribe
to a version of the list that's been filtered for you. Back in the 90s,
I subscribed to fcpunx back then, to avoid the worst of it. Someone
could do something similar now, but the volume is so low that it'd
hardly be worth it. Just filter in your mail client.

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[Cecilia Tanaka]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020, 21:28 Shawn K. Quinn  wrote:



Fucking love you, Shawn.  F words for you, hahahaha!!!  <3

But, sorry, moderation in our specific case would be censorship...  Who, in
this world or in all the other ones, would accept a message of mine, for
example?  I was and I am a moderator in a few other lists, so I do not
trust the other moderators for good personal reasons.  I can be useful, but
not 100% fair without all the informations behind a single message.

It can be bullshit, but it can be someone sincerely asking for help.  And
not all the moderators are good persons.  Do you understand my sad point of
view?  :-/

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On 6/26/20 18:19, таракан wrote:
> I am a Mathematician and involved in "industrial" cryptography. 
> However, I am interested in the Cypherpunk movement as described by 
> the Cypherpunk's manifesto.
> 
> I am unsure if this mailing list still relates to the original 
> Cypherpunk movement... Obviously it contains many inordinate
> messages containing vulgar terms.

I'm still scratching my head wondering what  flagrant racism,
antisemitism, etc have to do with the cypherpunk movement and/or
securing technology through encryption. Just kidding... they don't,  but
apparently since a certain other list is moderated (or if you'd believe
some people, "censored"), all that stuff just gets posted here. I've
even seen this list cc'd or even threads outright redirected here when
it wouldn't pass muster on the other list. Yes, that list is a
"technical" list, and I'm not saying this list should become a carbon
copy of it, but this is what I'm talking about regarding topic drift.

> I also do believe that a public mailing list would be the last place 
> on earth Cypherpunks would choose to meet and discuss but who knows?

I support the original mission of the cypherpunks movement. As stated in
the Wikipedia article:

> A cypherpunk is any activist[1] advocating widespread use of strong 
> cryptography and privacy-enhancing technologies as a route to social 
> and political change.

There are times and places where one must protect themselves from
security risks wearing blue and carrying badges and guns as much as the
ones wearing black and balaclavas, or whatever disguise garb criminals
wear these days. In a perfect world the cops could be trusted to obey
the same laws they are supposed to be enforcing and living up to the
standard of "'s finest" as they are often called. We,
unfortunately, do not live in anything close to a perfect world.

The way it's looking though, regularly slinging antisemitic, racist, and
other slurs, and sticking up for the right to spew outright bullshit
where it's not wanted, appear to be someone's idea of de facto
qualifications to be a "true cypherpunk". I refuse to do either; I see
the ideal form of the cypherpunk movement as egalitarian, where those of
all ethnicities and backgrounds are treated equally and given the same
chance to participate in beneficial social and political change. Yes,
this specifically includes Jews and people of color, as well as LGBTQ+
populations and other marginalized groups.

Honestly, if you're going to shut out some people, or use exclusionary
language such as well-recognized slurs that are avoided by people who
use the word "fuck" like they would use salt and pepper on bland food,
then you're no better than the authorities you pretend to hate. United
we stand, divided we fall.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[таракан]

Well I guess Cypherpunks aren't necessarily trying to destroy governments, 
there are plenty of organizations doing that very well... especially their own 
secret services.

My understanding of Cypherpunks is - as per their Manifesto - that they are 
trying to build privacy in a world where privacy is becoming a crime.

I thought recently that the biggest 'weapon' against a fascism regime would be 
to create the inability for that fascist regime to track, locate, monitor and 
spy someone.

I walk in the street right now. Nobody knows who I am. My neighbor doesn't know 
my name. I rent a flat without any ID. Nobody knows my name. My SIM card isn't 
linked to any ID (true). My credit card isn't my own credit card but belongs to 
someone who doesn't know me really. I get paid in Bitcoins. I go to a local 
shop and get cash against BTC without showing any ID. My phone cannot track me 
because it hasn'\t a GPS and so on ...

I know that with the time that sort of life will be harder and harder. Hence I 
feel it is a noble task to build a system where people can live a normal life 
and stay anonymous - as they want.

Anything we want to do now, we must *prove* that we are not criminals, we must 
take pictures of ourselves, dancing in front of a webcam and so on... not for 
me.

Interesting enough soon there will be Quantum crypto, and maybe NSA has already 
it.
How long can we trust these good old programs such as PGP? RSA wouldn't last a 
long time against a quantum computer ...

--
CRYPTOANALYZER
--

Sent from [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.ch), encrypted email based in 
Switzerland.

Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Saturday, 27 June 2020 г., 2:41,  wrote:

> There's some in the aether somewhere.
>
> The vulgarity is a side effect of free speech. But me, I'm fine with it. 
> Would much rather be able to call a spade a spade instead of guessing who is 
> what in the kayfabe of normalcy.
>
> But you're right a true cypher punk wouldn't be disgussing plans to subvert 
> government on an open message board
>
> Jun 26, 2020, 18:19 by cryptoanalyz...@protonmail.com:
>
>> I am a Mathematician and involved in "industrial" cryptography.
>> However, I am interested in the Cypherpunk movement as described by the 
>> Cypherpunk's manifesto.
>>
>> I am unsure if this mailing list still relates to the original Cypherpunk 
>> movement...
>> Obviously it contains many inordinate messages containing vulgar terms.
>>
>> I also do believe that a public mailing list would be the last place on 
>> earth Cypherpunks would choose to meet and discuss but who knows?
>>
>> ---
>> Crypto
>>
>> --
>> CRYPTOANALYZER
>> --
>>
>> Sent from [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.ch), encrypted email based in 
>> Switzerland.
>>
>> Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.

Any Cypherpunk there ?

[таракан]

I am a Mathematician and involved in "industrial" cryptography.
However, I am interested in the Cypherpunk movement as described by the 
Cypherpunk's manifesto.

I am unsure if this mailing list still relates to the original Cypherpunk 
movement...
Obviously it contains many inordinate messages containing vulgar terms.

I also do believe that a public mailing list would be the last place on earth 
Cypherpunks would choose to meet and discuss but who knows?

---
Crypto

--
CRYPTOANALYZER
--

Sent from [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.ch), encrypted email based in 
Switzerland.

Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.