Re: Current State of Mailing Lists / Forums about Internet Freedom, Security and Privacy?

[Steve Kinney]

On 12/26/2017 12:27 PM,
bm-2cxcavedtjwvdvxg9hempzp8k5uaakz...@bitmessage.ch wrote:
> It seems that the Internet is no longer an academic thing and compared to
> popular culture online, the research community becomes almost invisible and
> finally led to the collapse of many of them.

[...]

> Where are all the hackers, developers, cryptographers, activists, 
> researchers, etc gone? 

Nowhere and Everywhere.  Seek and ye shall find, but probably not what
you expect to find:  One can never step into the same river twice.  The
Internet actually has produced changes in human organization and, big
surprise, it does so first among those who are most immersed in its
technological and strategic/tactical aspects.  We now have a fluid
global community, where distinct forums, projects, etc. pop up, serve
their ad hoc purposes, then change radically and/or or just dry up and
blow away.  Sometimes an accessible archive of Very Useful Bits will be
left behind, sometimes not.

> It seems that the Internet is no longer an academic thing and compared to 
> popular culture online, the research community becomes almost invisible and 
> finally led to the collapse of many of them.

No Duh and Yes Duh:  The Internet stopped being an 'academic communiy'
in every practical sense with the advent of AOL.  But this did not cause
research communities to collapse:  See above.  Sometimes they work
themselves out of a job, or become obsolete when their subject matter
loses relevance.  On the darker side, such communities may fall prey to
political forces hostile to their nominal missions, especially when
people make the transition from noncommercial virtual interactions to
business enterprises in meatspace:  Check the rise and fall of EFF's TOR
Project for a fascinating case study.

Curious 3rd parties are not supposed to find their way into technical
forums and the like, not easily that is, because look up the phrase
Eternal September.  But like minded clever people will find each other,
for better or worse.

"Somewhere there are people just like you.  Go there."
- Jerry Pournelle

:o)




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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Current State of Mailing Lists / Forums about Internet Freedom, Security and Privacy?

[Georgi Guninski]

On Tue, Dec 26, 2017 at 09:27:58AM -0800, 
bm-2cxcavedtjwvdvxg9hempzp8k5uaakz...@bitmessage.ch wrote:
> of the current state of the Internet communities? And what is your
> recommendation
> of a good online fourm for general discussion of freedom, security and
> privacy?
>

Long ago someone said "the only connection is disconnection".
Searching google for this phrase returns only 4 results.
 

Re: Current State of Mailing Lists / Forums about Internet Freedom, Security and Privacy?

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Tue, Dec 26, 2017 at 05:26:32PM -0800, ilsa wrote:
> I might not have computer language skills but I am one of you.  I never
> spoke up before but doing this is part of my grieving process. If there is
> a true kind person who might give me a helping hand with my privacy needs,
> find a way to let me know.

Having genuine privacy in this day and age is a genuinely difficult
thing - and the shekel grabbers ridding humans of pesky private cash
are galloping as fast they can to the distopian 1984 and the like.

There is no silver bullet. Wish there were...

No silver bullet operating system. Nor user software. Nor hardware.

Almost everything is compromised somewhere.

Libre software is your only hope for a better future, but it will
require libre hardware for an actual long term shift.

Libre hardware is a ways off (for "years" values of "a ways").

Sorry, no easy answer, except stop putting your information online -
you should already be aware that Googoyle, Faceblots, Twatter and the
rest are absolute privacy violators - in fact, they are "your data"
government funnels, direct to the NSA, CIA, FBI, Police, Mil, and
your government reps.

The only way forward is spending your human attention on things that
have an actual foundation of libre ...

Good luck,

Re: Current State of Mailing Lists / Forums about Internet Freedom, Security and Privacy?

[ilsa]

Please Know that I Care ..I have NO computer skills that I did not copy or
follow Anthony P. Though he is gone I hope to get to know those who would
bother with a Green Horn... I wanted you to know I stand With the freedom
loving service especially as the tracks are going in as everything is
dependent on levels of the global code dances and where important stories
are given time to develop.  I once had just One Date with a tall handsome
security dud who told me, his face so close to my nose, that I could feel
the warmth of his breath, " I did a full search to see if you were real".
Imagine what I was thinking as I slide back in my chair and lifted my
single malt small island scotch.
I might not have computer language skills but I am one of you.  I never
spoke up before but doing this is part of my grieving process. If there is
a true kind person who might give me a helping hand with my privacy needs,
find a way to let me know.
I just wanted to say ...Happy season of the  time to rest and party no
matter what your core stories are, I am so glad You Are All Here and I have
been lucky to read and sometimes act on what you are talking about... yea,
run on sentence...

Have any of y'all written a book?  I am working on an autobiography, anyone
know good editors or agents and so forth?
Somewhere beyond a dream, with..
Respect and Gratitude, Smile

Ilsa Bartlett
Institute for Rewiring the System
http://ilsabartlett.wordpress.com
http://www.google.com/profiles/ilsa.bartlett
www.hotlux.com/angel 

"Don't ever get so big or important that you can not hear and listen to
every other person."
-John Coltrane

On Tue, Dec 26, 2017 at 3:30 PM, Zenaan Harkness  wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 26, 2017 at 09:27:58AM -0800, BM-
> 2cxcavedtjwvdvxg9hempzp8k5uaakz...@bitmessage.ch wrote:
> > Does anyone have an option about how the things going on today? Any
> > explanations of the current state of the Internet communities?
>
> Bitcoin fever.
>
> The anarchists who are not so besotten with greed, actually conceive,
> and create.
>
> The so besotten clamour and cling, ride waves of profit for their
> personal foundations of greed, lust, glory and the rest.
>
> And so the few who actually care, who sought (some still seek) a
> genuinely "better" future, are drowned out in the deluge of human
> foibles - and right now those foibles are turbocharged with $20,000
> per coin "inspiration".
>
> Cést la humanité.
>
>
> > And what is your recommendation of a good online fourm for general
> > discussion of freedom, security and privacy?
>
> Right here.
>
> Those other lists are censored.
>
> If you genuinely have genuine interest, there's a few ’round these
> parts that'll chime in and help set your misthoughts straight (at
> least, on the technical side :) - for everything else, there's
> Mircard :D
>

Re: Current State of Mailing Lists / Forums about Internet Freedom, Security and Privacy?

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Tue, Dec 26, 2017 at 09:27:58AM -0800, 
bm-2cxcavedtjwvdvxg9hempzp8k5uaakz...@bitmessage.ch wrote:
> Does anyone have an option about how the things going on today? Any
> explanations of the current state of the Internet communities?

Bitcoin fever.

The anarchists who are not so besotten with greed, actually conceive,
and create.

The so besotten clamour and cling, ride waves of profit for their
personal foundations of greed, lust, glory and the rest.

And so the few who actually care, who sought (some still seek) a
genuinely "better" future, are drowned out in the deluge of human
foibles - and right now those foibles are turbocharged with $20,000
per coin "inspiration".

Cést la humanité.


> And what is your recommendation of a good online fourm for general
> discussion of freedom, security and privacy?

Right here.

Those other lists are censored.

If you genuinely have genuine interest, there's a few ’round these
parts that'll chime in and help set your misthoughts straight (at
least, on the technical side :) - for everything else, there's
Mircard :D

Re: Current State of Mailing Lists / Forums about Internet Freedom, Security and Privacy?

[James A. Donald]

On 12/27/2017 3:30 AM, > Does anyone have an option about how the things 
going on today? Any

explanations
of the current state of the Internet communities? And what is your
recommendation
of a good online fourm for general discussion of freedom, security and
privacy?


Numerous incidents of potentially deadly violence directed at crime 
thinkers, who tend to get deemed white supremacists etc.


Better publicized, and more common, destroying their business and career 
prospects, as for example Urbit.


This has been effective in quelling dissent.

Observe that the people who made bitcoin work are all undercover, and to 
the extent that I know who they are (which is not much) they are 
international travelers with bugouts in place.  Anyone who openly 
purports to be an important bitcoin person is apt to be associated with 
US Government law enforcement - entryists and infiltrators.

Current State of Mailing Lists / Forums about Internet Freedom, Security and Privacy?

[BM-2cXCAVedtJwvdVXg9HeMPZp8k5UAakzTMs]

Hello.

I was originally writing this post for tor-talk mailing list, which is a
general
mailing list hosted by Tor Project to discuss online anonymity and
cryptography
technology, I later realized it was probably a good idea to seek feedback
from
other lists so I crossposted it to many of them. It's all my humble
options and
please forgive if it's inappropriate.

In the history of the Internet, there were always some communities who found
themselves (or placed themselves) in the center of the storm on cutting edge
development related to Internet freedom, security and privacy in the past 30
years.

Back in the 80s, sci.crypto and a handful of newsgroups were prominent and
widely read by everyone in the field of security and cryptography. In the
90s,
there were comp.risks and the Cypherpunk mailing list, and they are probably
everything you need for resources and discussions. In 2000s, Bugtraq and the
Full Disclosure movement started, where all the security holes were
debated and
exposed.

Those communities were center of the mass, brought all the talent people
together, to conduct free discussions and research about everything
ongoing in
the field, no matter it was news, debate, designs, programs, rumors or
personal
argument, with light or no moderation, where ideas crashed on each other and
produced fruitful new approaches.

Unfortunately, it looks like that this kind of communities is becoming
endangered
species. It's hard to find anything similar after 2008 (or ~2005)? All the
existing lists are dead pools now with few threads, some newsgroups still
exist,
but are toxic now since only narcissists are posting, and no other
existent members
to stop them since, they were all gone. The remaining lists are becoming
project-centric, only discuss specific technical issues and not a general
platform of discussion, such as this tor-talk (historically, mailing lists
named
as "-talk" were usually popular, like a party). seclists.org still has some
historically famous lists but they are not very active, comp.risks only
has news
digest now! No posters! The Cryptography mailing list on metzdowd.com is
still
moving, but only 3 or 4 topics are discussed monthly (but in-depth, which is
good), with strict on-topic policy. Other popular forums, like HackerNews or
Reddit, functions more like a brief digest instead of a general purpose
online
forum.

Where are all the hackers, developers, cryptographers, activists,
researchers,
etc gone?

1. It seems that the arise of social media, like Facebook and especially
Twitter, is partially responsible for the current state of deterioration of
online forums, as now all the latest and interesting information are tweets,
and everyone's on Twitter. They are turning the Internet communities to be
less
and less formal and sophisticated people, Have a new project? Instead of
writing
a 1000 words short essay and debating with all the experts in the mailing
list,
just send a 50-word tweet and post the code to GitHub!

2. It seems that the scope of Internet freedom, security and privacy has
expanded infinitely, it's infeasible to talk to everyone on Earth in this
field
by posting in two or three mailing lists, everyone moved to their personal
(physical and online) social network to talk is a natural result of it.
This is
how the Cypherpunk list dead according to some, I believe the same thing is
going on everywhere. (sorry if Cypherpunks found it's offensive, no
intention to
insult, but just no longer the center of mass according to John Gilmore in
2002).

3. It seems that the Internet is no longer an academic thing and compared to
popular culture online, the research community becomes almost invisible and
finally led to the collapse of many of them.

4. It seems that the Internet is no longer an utopian "cyberspace", but
now with
lots of threats, such as doxxing and mass surveillance. 20 years ago it's
normal
for a hacker or activist to post a controversial research, with the phone
number
and personal address attached in a mailing list, and joining monthly offline
meetings. But now, many of them, or perhaps even you, the one who is reading
this post, would prefer a low profile in the community, or proactively
separate
different works. Many are also prefer a private Off-the-record talk over a
public debate, prefer small private groups with encryption over big open
space.
Some even proactively obscure or erase online records. This has two
consequences,
first, the Big Brother has to work harder and it's good. But it also means
the
community as a whore becomes harder to communicate with each other, there are
always time when someone discovered something which is unnoticed to
others, or
comes up with an exceptionally good idea. But a fragmented community is more
difficult to promote them. (It's also difficult to conduct a historical
research
in the future, which can be a problem. In contrast the Usenet posts from the
80s are still here and it's good for history and research, but bad for

Current State of Mailing Lists / Forums about Internet Freedom, Security and Privacy?

[BM-2cXCAVedtJwvdVXg9HeMPZp8k5UAakzTMs]

Hello.

I was originally writing this post for tor-talk mailing list, which is a
general
mailing list hosted by Tor Project to discuss online anonymity and
cryptography
technology, I later realized it was probably a good idea to seek feedback
from
other lists so I crossposted it to many of them. It's all my humble
options and
please forgive if it's inappropriate.

In the history of the Internet, there were always some communities who found
themselves (or placed themselves) in the center of the storm on cutting edge
development related to Internet freedom, security and privacy in the past 30
years.

Back in the 80s, sci.crypto and a handful of newsgroups were prominent and
widely read by everyone in the field of security and cryptography. In the
90s,
there were comp.risks and the Cypherpunk mailing list, and they are probably
everything you need for resources and discussions. In 2000s, Bugtraq and the
Full Disclosure movement started, where all the security holes were
debated and
exposed.

Those communities were center of the mass, brought all the talent people
together, to conduct free discussions and research about everything
ongoing in
the field, no matter it was news, debate, designs, programs, rumors or
personal
argument, with light or no moderation, where ideas crashed on each other and
produced fruitful new approaches.

Unfortunately, it looks like that this kind of communities is becoming
endangered
species. It's hard to find anything similar after 2008 (or ~2005)? All the
existing lists are dead pools now with few threads, some newsgroups still
exist,
but are toxic now since only narcissists are posting, and no other
existent members
to stop them since, they were all gone. The remaining lists are becoming
project-centric, only discuss specific technical issues and not a general
platform of discussion, such as this tor-talk (historically, mailing lists
named
as "-talk" were usually popular, like a party). seclists.org still has some
historically famous lists but they are not very active, comp.risks only
has news
digest now! No posters! The Cryptography mailing list on metzdowd.com is
still
moving, but only 3 or 4 topics are discussed monthly (but in-depth, which is
good), with strict on-topic policy. Other popular forums, like HackerNews or
Reddit, functions more like a brief digest instead of a general purpose
online
forum.

Where are all the hackers, developers, cryptographers, activists,
researchers,
etc gone?

1. It seems that the arise of social media, like Facebook and especially
Twitter, is partially responsible for the current state of deterioration of
online forums, as now all the latest and interesting information are tweets,
and everyone's on Twitter. They are turning the Internet communities to be
less
and less formal and sophisticated people, Have a new project? Instead of
writing
a 1000 words short essay and debating with all the experts in the mailing
list,
just send a 50-word tweet and post the code to GitHub!

2. It seems that the scope of Internet freedom, security and privacy has
expanded infinitely, it's infeasible to talk to everyone on Earth in this
field
by posting in two or three mailing lists, everyone moved to their personal
(physical and online) social network to talk is a natural result of it.
This is
how the Cypherpunk list dead according to some, I believe the same thing is
going on everywhere. (sorry if Cypherpunks found it's offensive, no
intention to
insult, but just no longer the center of mass according to John Gilmore in
2002).

3. It seems that the Internet is no longer an academic thing and compared to
popular culture online, the research community becomes almost invisible and
finally led to the collapse of many of them.

4. It seems that the Internet is no longer an utopian "cyberspace", but
now with
lots of threats, such as doxxing and mass surveillance. 20 years ago it's
normal
for a hacker or activist to post a controversial research, with the phone
number
and personal address attached in a mailing list, and joining monthly offline
meetings. But now, many of them, or perhaps even you, the one who is reading
this post, would prefer a low profile in the community, or proactively
separate
different works. Many are also prefer a private Off-the-record talk over a
public debate, prefer small private groups with encryption over big open
space.
Some even proactively obscure or erase online records. This has two
consequences,
first, the Big Brother has to work harder and it's good. But it also means
the
community as a whore becomes harder to communicate with each other, there are
always time when someone discovered something which is unnoticed to
others, or
comes up with an exceptionally good idea. But a fragmented community is more
difficult to promote them. (It's also difficult to conduct a historical
research
in the future, which can be a problem. In contrast the Usenet posts from the
80s are still here and it's good for history and research, but bad for