Re: US: Post Election Protests [#NotMyPresident Protests, #J20 General Strike]

[Cecilia Tanaka]

On Nov 14, 2016 2:36 PM, "John Newman"  wrote:
>
> Still, I don't think Ceci is the troll ;)

No, I am not the troll.  Being sincere, I think there are more than one
person trolling the CP list only for the lulz, to provoke some persons
here.

I really don't support coward acts.  The 'JA group' made it before, do you
remember?  They created _fake accounts_ in different groups using _Jake's
own name_ to humiliate and hurt him, using his name to spread cruel
messages, their blog's posts and all the kind of links against him.

I usually criticize persons using my own name, giving them the right of
answer, of defense, because I can be wrong.  It's always a possibility and
I can't deny it.

I am certainly not the best person here, but I never will be insidious or
coward, hiding myself behind hypocrisy and hundreds of spam messages.
Aff...  :(

Re: US: Post Election Protests [#NotMyPresident Protests, #J20 General Strike]

[John Newman]

> On Nov 14, 2016, at 11:05 AM, Mirimir  wrote:
> 
>> On 11/14/2016 05:21 AM, John Newman wrote:
>> What makes you so convinced that rooty tooty fresh and fruity is or has 
>> anything to do with Ceci?
>> 
>> It seems like a ridiculous accusation.
>> 
>> Mail headers, the language of the postings, the timing of the postings - 
>> none of it shows even a hint of a connection.
> 
> Well, even if there were stylistic similarities, let's say, that's what
> someone trying to frame Ceci would aim for ;) And even header
> associations can be faked. So it's arguably not worth consideration. And
> anyway, the list has largely become troll hill :(
> 

Most definitely. Someone was posting using my name a while back (I think only 
one posting). 

Still, I don't think Ceci is the troll ;)


>> John
>> 
>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:23 PM, Razer  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> So bored you're replying to your own disruptor BFF's bots and trolls 
>>> 'CeeCee'?
>>> 
>>> You need to get a life. Or like you promised offlist a long while back, 
>>> otra via, off yourself.
>> 
>> 

Re: US: Post Election Protests [#NotMyPresident Protests, #J20 General Strike]

[Mirimir]

On 11/14/2016 05:21 AM, John Newman wrote:
> What makes you so convinced that rooty tooty fresh and fruity is or has 
> anything to do with Ceci?
> 
> It seems like a ridiculous accusation.
> 
> Mail headers, the language of the postings, the timing of the postings - none 
> of it shows even a hint of a connection.

Well, even if there were stylistic similarities, let's say, that's what
someone trying to frame Ceci would aim for ;) And even header
associations can be faked. So it's arguably not worth consideration. And
anyway, the list has largely become troll hill :(

> John
> 
>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:23 PM, Razer  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> So bored you're replying to your own disruptor BFF's bots and trolls 
>> 'CeeCee'?
>>
>> You need to get a life. Or like you promised offlist a long while back, otra 
>> via, off yourself.
> 
> 

Re: US: Post Election Protests [#NotMyPresident Protests, #J20 General Strike]

[John Newman]

What makes you so convinced that rooty tooty fresh and fruity is or has 
anything to do with Ceci?

It seems like a ridiculous accusation.

Mail headers, the language of the postings, the timing of the postings - none 
of it shows even a hint of a connection.


John

> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:23 PM, Razer  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> So bored you're replying to your own disruptor BFF's bots and trolls 'CeeCee'?
> 
> You need to get a life. Or like you promised offlist a long while back, otra 
> via, off yourself.

Re: US: Post Election Protests [#NotMyPresident Protests, #J20 General Strike]

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 12:19:22AM -0500, grarpamp wrote:
> Doesn't matter, it's over. And the reengineering of all sides and
> would be entrants for two four six and eight years out has
> already started. Thrown your hats in, place your bets, and
> grab popcorn (or favorite sexy kitteh).

Re: US: Post Election Protests [#NotMyPresident Protests, #J20 General Strike]

[grarpamp]

Those were 4 and 10 months prior.
As said, it'll take a while before
better more accurate picture emerges.
Have fun.​

Re: US: Post Election Protests [#NotMyPresident Protests, #J20 General Strike]

[grarpamp]

Doesn't matter, it's over. And the reengineering of all sides and
would be entrants for two four six and eight years out has
already started. Thrown your hats in, place your bets, and
grab popcorn (or favorite sexy kitteh).

Re: US: Post Election Protests [#NotMyPresident Protests, #J20 General Strike]

[Razer]

On 11/13/2016 01:51 PM, grarpamp wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 11:27 AM, Razer  wrote:
>> Have a look. Tens of thousands.
>> https://twitter.com/AuntieImperial/status/797659982409760768
> 10 is not 100.
>
 almost every single POC
>> As far as whether POC hate him
> Citation your implied numerical ratio of haters vs lovers 

In the POC population?

ROTF!

July: poll suggests that only 6 percent of black voters nationally plan
to support Donald Trump.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/07/13/new-polls-in-pennsylvania-and-ohio-show-donald-trump-with-0-percent-of-the-black-vote/

More: http://www.factcheck.org/2016/02/trump-and-the-black-vote/

Beyond that do your own research.


> was requested,
> not the degree to which any such haters hate him.
> Voting data seems to indicate from 65-88% haters holding
> a degree from 0 far from 'every single'.
>
>> where it's not middleclass and white.
> Like within big blue city limits full of poc marchers?
> Or out in the red sticks full of non poc?

Where I live it's got both. There's hipsters AND rednecks round these
heah parts... Where most people in the US live there are both.

Further, most of the truly rural areas in America are populated by
immigrants, legal or not, working in the fields or some Armour meat
packing plant in bumfuck getting spattered with bone meal gristle and
blood. Trump WILL give that job to an American. Too bad he won't find
ONE to take it . Driscoll Strawberry mentioned below is classic. They
and the California Strawberry Association ran a PR campaign to get young
white Californians into the fields. The ag law in Cali is 12 hours a day
sunrise to sunset until the harvest is done. No one applied.

Then there are Exburbs... Where the more affluent live. Sometimes they
only go to the office once a week, or month. They like Trump. They're
cutthroat scam artists like him too. Managers that made director and
shit like that.

Then there are some places that look like farms but they really aren't.
The number of true family farms, as opposed to Family as in name, like
Driscoll Strawberry in California with millions of acres snd is really
quite corporate, approaches near zero in the US. Or like the 'The
Bundys' who are "Welfare Ranchers" The keep cattle because the
government pretty much pays for it. But their business? Truck repair.

"Rural America" as the media depicts it is a myth IOW. I've been there.
They all live on disability and welfare and when the check comes at the
beginning of the month they get their tattoos worked on. If they run
short of money they just whip up a sink full of meth. Then there's the
nutjobs.. Like polygamous Mormons who keep harems of women they only
fuck when "god" commands.


Rr



>
> It's about the popcorn, others can debate and figure
> whatever Soros or anyone else is up to on whatever side.
>
> Since no side presents an ideal package, and most sides
> seem far from one with their stupid politically engineered
> dividing line antipodal platforms, I could care less.

Here's my side: They can both go fuck (or unfuck) themselves

[Image]


>
> Regarding popcorn, remember, not all popular votes are in, and
> there's still electoral fun and games to be played in December.
>
> https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/electoral-college/key-dates.html
>
> It's still better everyone on all side quit being physical against
> other humans and property and generally chill the fuck out.

Re: US: Post Election Protests [#NotMyPresident Protests, #J20 General Strike]

[grarpamp]

On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 4:51 PM, grarpamp  wrote:
> Voting data seems to indicate from 65-88% haters holding

Typo, 56-88 on po'c' only, depending on source,
statistics of which won't settle out into consensus
till years from now anyways.

Re: US: Post Election Protests [#NotMyPresident Protests, #J20 General Strike]

[grarpamp]

On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 11:27 AM, Razer  wrote:
> Have a look. Tens of thousands.
> https://twitter.com/AuntieImperial/status/797659982409760768

10 is not 100.

>>> almost every single POC
> As far as whether POC hate him

Citation your implied numerical ratio of haters vs lovers was requested,
not the degree to which any such haters hate him.
Voting data seems to indicate from 65-88% haters holding
a degree from 0 where it's not middleclass and white.

Like within big blue city limits full of poc marchers?
Or out in the red sticks full of non poc?

It's about the popcorn, others can debate and figure
whatever Soros or anyone else is up to on whatever side.

Since no side presents an ideal package, and most sides
seem far from one with their stupid politically engineered
dividing line antipodal platforms, I could care less.

Regarding popcorn, remember, not all popular votes are in, and
there's still electoral fun and games to be played in December.

https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/electoral-college/key-dates.html

It's still better everyone on all side quit being physical against
other humans and property and generally chill the fuck out.

Re: US: Post Election Protests [#NotMyPresident Protests, #J20 General Strike]

[Cecilia Tanaka]

On Nov 13, 2016 4:23 PM, "Razer"  wrote:
>
> So bored you're replying to your own disruptor BFF's bots and trolls
'CeeCee'?

They are _not_ mine, Razer.  I don't care about your opinion anymore, but I
swear they are not mine in any sense.

> You need to get a life. Or like you promised offlist a long while back,
otra via, off yourself.

Razer, are you really asking to a person to suicide?  Are you able to
notice how cruel, how vile is asking to a person take their own life?  :(

You are so bitter, Razer.  Sorry if I broke your heart or hurt you.  I
never knowed you liked me so much, I swear.

And, sorry, asking me to suicide is the best way to keep myself alive.  I
never respect unfair authorities and pretentious people.  I'll take my own
decisions about my life and my death, not you or another person.

You do need some love.  Try to move to one of these Japanese islands.  Cats
usually love grumpy old people.  Cats, not pussies.

http://en.rocketnews24.com/2014/04/05/the-11-cat-islands-of-japan-【photos】/

Re: US: Post Election Protests [#NotMyPresident Protests, #J20 General Strike]

[Razer]

So bored you're replying to your own disruptor BFF's bots and trolls
'CeeCee'?

You need to get a life. Or like you promised offlist a long while back,
otra via, off yourself.

Re: US: Post Election Protests [#NotMyPresident Protests, #J20 General Strike]

[grarpamp]

On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 12:32 AM, Razer  wrote:
> Almost 100K
> almost every single POC

Citations please.
Just saying because I've seen them.

But here's a true number, only 4.72% of cast were third party.
That's sad.

Re: US: Post Election Protests [#NotMyPresident Protests, #J20 General Strike]

[grarpamp]

They can protest all they want, that's free speech.
And the issues are generally relavant / valid.
But they have no right legally or otherwise to be commiting
acts of physical violence upon other humans or causing
damage to others property. Doing that, and generally
acting like assholes, will and has got them delegitimized
by the people they're protesting against. Now it's mostly
just warm fuzzies for themselves, their backers and
their moderates.
Many of these 'liberal' protests in their blue dominated city
limits perhaps didn't vote and don't seem to be protest in red
regions. And both Clinton or Obama haven't said anything to stop it.
Bottom line, whatever their causes of the day are, they had
four years to work them into a vote. And ever since the primaries
to wage against any candidate too. Vote happened, and as
it appear nothing about the vote / process has made it to
any court lawsuit to date, they seem to have lost fair and square.
290 to 228 of the book, and only lead 0.49% of popular cast
between them. You can't always get what you want.
The presidency is one person take all, they know that.
Did they invest their half in Congress, apparently not either.
Another thing seems clear, both before and after election it
wasn't the right being mass violent and disrespecting the law
and the vote. Nor is it likely right would have if the right lost.
Last, US has been moving progressivly forward on its own
for decades, that's not changing, nor is punching people
out and damaging shit likely to speed it up, at all.
It would be different if left were a desperate 20% minority
last ditch with no other options but death. The situation sucks,
but there are likely other options all around. And they might
already being adopted..


# Billionaire Soros linked to anti-Trump protests - WikiLeaks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14zszKEKz-I

Re: US: Post Election Protests [#NotMyPresident Protests, #J20 General Strike]

[Razer]

On 11/12/2016 05:59 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 07:53:39PM -0800, Razer wrote:
>> I DO WANT TO NOTE that people should reject the notion that these
>> protests are 'planned by Soros' as some sort of Oligarch driven 'color
>> revolution'.
> "Obviously, no one is disputing the fact that there are millions of
> people unhappy with the election results."
>
>
>> The protests weren't planned.
> Anti-Trump protests are paid and staged, Craigslist reveals
> http://theduran.com/anti-trump-protesters-paid-staged-craigslist-reveals/


There were tens of thousands of people on Wiltshire in LA today. Almost 100K

Extras?

So some ringer puts an ad on cragslist. That means exactly what? I
really think you should butt out. YOU are absolutely unaware how many
people in the US, almost every single POC, DESPISES Trump.

The Secret Service is going to have a VERY hard time keeping him alive.

You want the job?

Rr

Re: US: Post Election Protests [#NotMyPresident Protests, #J20 General Strike]

[Cecilia Tanaka]

Wish you and the USA a good revolution, my dear Razer!  :)

I know you will think it's a too 'hippie' suggestion, but take flowers with
you, not guns.  Avoid violence and destruction, please.  Police and Army
never rejected flowers and art here and it made a great difference in some
Brazilian protests.  If you use a gun, they will use guns too.  If you use
flowers, they remember you are only a human being, expressing your personal
convictions.  :)

In any case, take vinegar and clean cloths to use against tear gas.  It
does work and can make make a great difference when running away.
Unhappily, tried it in person, ouch!  :P

Be careful with cel phones to protect your contacts, please.  Buy a cheap
model, a new chip, use crypto and nicks, if you decide to organize a
protest, please.  Aff, it's always pretty stressing to think about bad
possibilities!  :P

Good luck and take care, OK ?  I can kick your b@lls, not the police!  :P

PS:  -  Hillary is a corrupt monster too, ugh!  Don't you have a better
option disponible?  :B

Re: US: Post Election Protests [#NotMyPresident Protests, #J20 General Strike]

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 07:53:39PM -0800, Razer wrote:
> I DO WANT TO NOTE that people should reject the notion that these
> protests are 'planned by Soros' as some sort of Oligarch driven 'color
> revolution'.

"Obviously, no one is disputing the fact that there are millions of
people unhappy with the election results."


> The protests weren't planned.

Anti-Trump protests are paid and staged, Craigslist reveals
http://theduran.com/anti-trump-protesters-paid-staged-craigslist-reveals/

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[grarpamp]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d9lm-T87AQ

+111

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[jim bell]

 From: juan 

>>  Entirely unaware of their specific work (but, as I vaguely recall,
>> aware of this general concept; I'd probably heard of it, indirectly,
>> from a third person whose identity I don't recall), I thought of the
>> "Hundreds, or thousands, or millions of 'Person A's', make anonymous
>> contributions to a general offer to potentially any 'Person B' to
>> reward him for 'predicting' the date of death of 'Person C'. Are
>> these two models alike?  Kinda-sorta, I suppose.

 >   Well, the part about a date for a predicted 'accident' or event
 >  is more original I think (though I certainly haven't researched
 >   it thoroughly), however the bit about something being funded by
 >   many people seems more like the standard working of markets and
 >   so is rather old?
Hey, I didn't claim to have invented the entire concept of markets!   
Anyway, in 1995 the terms "crowdsourced" and "crowdfunded" didn't exist.  
AP could be described today quite simply as "crowdfunded assassinations".  


>> But I think they
>> would be enormously different in effect, for many reasons I need not
>> go into here.  If 'Assassination Markets' were limited to the former
>> model, very few people would be hated, enough, by only one person to
>> obtain a donation sufficient to buy a death.  In the latter model, a
>> few million 25-cent donations would get rid of nearly all potential
>> targets. I suggest that I did indeed advance the rhetorical
>> state-of-the-world.

>    I think Steve's point about high value targets being hard to
 >   attack is valid. But on the other hand what would happen if
>    'law enforcement' 'agents' were targeted? The price to get rid
>    of lowly anonymous cops would be a lot smaller. Working as a cop
>    would stop being appealing. And with no state 'law'
>    'enforcement' there are no state's 'laws' and ultimately no
>    state.
I don't disagree that "high value" targets would be more difficult.  But not 
that much.  And if they are indeed "high-value", that implies that large 
numbers of people would be ready and willing to donate to see them gone.  And 
the fact that the AP bounty can be collected by ANYONE makes it hard to defend 
against.  Even a person's bodyguards (and especially them!) would be able to 
stage an attack, and collect the reward.
 

>> Rather, my
>> intent was to show that the kind of tools necessary to implement AP
>> are being considered and produced.  Just "the kind of tools", not
>> necessarily the tools themselves.  TOR should be made stronger, with
>> more hops, more exit nodes, and more transfer nodes, filler traffic,
>> for some examples of improvements. 

>    Tor is a brand of the tor corporation which in turn means the
>    pentagon. It's pretty much a dead end (and that's the way its
>    owners intend it to be, obviously)
And that's a real shame.  It's still useable, within its limitations.

  

> Bitcoin needs an upgrade, for
> example to Zerocoin, to provide true anonymity, rather than mere
> pseudonymity.  

    Yes...

    (rest of your message is a reply to Steve so I won't comment)



> 
> > The betting pool itself would alert

> No, it would not.  Unlike the Federal Government's short-lived
> proposal in 2003, PAM "Policy Analysis Markets", (FutureMAP),
>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_Analysis_Market   in which the
> state of the betting itself alerts people to threats, a well-designed
> AP system would carefully avoid alerting the public (or anyone) to
> bets, ideally until later, after the event predicted had materialized
> or failed to materialize.  The 'money' for the bet might be inside an
> encryption envelope, without the name of the target or date.  Another
> encryption envelope, inside the first one, could contain the target
> and date information.  The AP organization could decrypt the first
> (outer) envelope, and be unable to decrypt the inner one, at least
> until the password is sent in by the predictor. The AP organization
> would, however, publish the decrypted contents of the outer envelope,
> so that everyone would know that a prediction with $X of value came
> in on a specific date and time. Nobody, except the predictor, would
> know the identity or date.  Eventually, the inner password would be
> sent in, used to decrypt the inner envelope, with the results
> published online.  If the AP organization cheats, by  failing to
> perform one of these steps, the predictor could publish the inner
> prediction key himself, disclosing to the public that the
> long-since-published content of the outer encryption envelope was a
> valid prediction, and for some reason (fraud?) the AP organization
> did not play fair.   That would destroy the credibility of that
> specific AP organization; others would soon take its place.
> 
> > potential targets to take proportional defensive measures, which "at
> > best" would inhibit the social progress promoted by the system.
> The system would adapt.  Consider Le 

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:16:16PM +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 12:56:01AM -0500, grarpamp wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:13 PM, jim bell  wrote:
> > > "Chaos" is not identical to "change".  Nevertheless, "Chaos" is a state in
> > > which there is very low resistance to change.
> > 
> > Speaking of chaos...
> > https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=trump+election+protests
> > 
> > Seems to be a first for any US election.
> > Wonder who's behind it
> 
> Couldn't be Soros - who would ever believe that?
> 
> Besides, nothing quite like "tolerant" leftists protesting violently
> ...

Ouch
http://theduran.com/shocking-california-high-school-girl-is-brutally-beaten-for-liking-donald-trump-caught-on-video/

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:16:16PM +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 12:56:01AM -0500, grarpamp wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:13 PM, jim bell  wrote:
> > > "Chaos" is not identical to "change".  Nevertheless, "Chaos" is a state in
> > > which there is very low resistance to change.
> > 
> > Speaking of chaos...
> > https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=trump+election+protests
> > 
> > Seems to be a first for any US election.
> > Wonder who's behind it
> 
> Couldn't be Soros - who would ever believe that?
> 
> Besides, nothing quite like "tolerant" leftists protesting violently
> ...

http://theduran.com/george-soros-begins-color-revolution-america-moveon-activists-march-trump/

http://theduran.com/obamas-silence-undermines-law-order-democracy/



(
http://theduran.com/activitsts-on-twitter-and-reddit-are-asking-donald-trump-to-pardon-julian-assange/
https://www.change.org/p/donald-trump-pardon-julian-assange

http://theduran.com/personal-letter-donald-j-trump/

http://theduran.com/amy-schumer-calls-trump-voters-weak-and-misinformed-but-she-has-decided-to-stay-in-us/

http://theduran.com/5-countries-hillary-clinton-supporters-should-move-to/

http://theduran.com/russia-america-globalist-commentariat-disgusting-defeat/

http://theduran.com/autonomous-clinton-oblast-refuge-trumpland/
http://www.westernjournalism.com/wikileaks-bombshell-clinton-camp-may-have-ties-to-the-occult/
)

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[grarpamp]

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 6:47 AM, John Newman  wrote:
> Violence ended slavery in the South.

It primarily ended declared voluntary secession (triggered by
threat of unpalatable legislation, from a contract that had no
penalty on exit terms) and its subsequent process of expelling
the thenforth foreign government from the South... of course
ensuring continuing revenues and access to resources,
production, infrastructure, sheeple, etc at cost.
By that time ending slavery came for the ride as required moral
bonus were they to retain the South (along with all the other
issues), and as strategic move to destabilize related slave trade
value to the South, and raise internal question / revolt in the South,
during the war.
Something like that.

Similarly, if California declares secession nullifying
the former federal presence, it won't be to end gay sex,
abortion, and weed that the East goes to war over... though
for some select demographics in the East that might be a
wished for bonus.

Of course the East might skip that bloody battle knowing
that it has a Trump up its sleeve who will negotiate the best
trade deals favoring the East with its new Western trade partner.

> Violence created the so called "land of the free" =)

Sad. Apparently there's some new free land and resources
being created in Syria by a few outside competitors.
Only a few uncooperative Indians there, but they don't
have any rights in competitors system so it's ok right.

> Sometimes it's the solution.

These 'protesters' have plenty of non violent options left.
Instead of thuggery upon those who have not laid fist to
them first (which only spawns mass turnout against them)
they should be out organizing a political response of their own.
Such as how they're going to vote, censure, recall, impeach or
otherwise get Trump out if he really starts fucking things up.

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[Razer]

On 11/10/2016 12:34 PM, John Newman wrote:

> I see no reason to celebrate Trump, just as I would see no reason to
> celebrate Hillary.
> Acting as if her corruption is anything special or particularly out of
> line is just a farce. Just like all of American politics.

It depends on whether one sees it as a chance to destroy the American
two faction system of 'government'. I for one would like to know how
many PISSED OFF AMERICANS didn't vote for him because they were in
support of his ideas, but becaue they knew it would FUCK SHIT UP and
MAYBE even turn some prog-libs (still watching the college crowd
carefully here) into wild-eyed firebomb tossing radicals.

One can ONLY hope.

Rr

>
> On Nov 10, 2016, at 10:46 AM, jim bell  > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> *From:* grarpamp >
>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 12:56 AM, grarpamp > > wrote:
>>
>> > Seems to be a first for any US election.
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c4xxl/protesters_block_entrance_to_trump_tower/
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c1vo7/protests_erupt_following_donald_trumps/
>>
>> >This compilation from before election...
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMux_UHmpvc
>>
>> >Violence not a good solution.
>>
>> These people are very misguided.  If anyone, they should be
>> protesting Hillary Clinton, the DNC, John Podesta, her other aides
>> and allies,and the various examples of corruption that have occurred.
>>  Do they not realize that the election went the way it did not merely
>> because of the email leaks, but more fundamentally because these
>> corrupt people did things the way they did, and then they chose to
>> talk about that in a medium that at one point they considered secure
>> and safe.  Didn't turn out to be, huh?
>>
>> In, say, 2013, the average Hillary-supporter could have said that she
>> was capable, competent, experienced, and honest, and not risk too
>> much laughter from the rest of us.  By late 2016, everything had
>> changed.  Do her supporters actually believe that the only problem is
>> the exposure of her, rather than her underlying behavior?
>>
>
> Does anyone actually believe Trump is anything but a bloviating gasbag
> who told the racist hordes in America what they wanted to hear? Does
> he even believe his own bullshit - does any politician? 
>
> I see no reason to celebrate Trump, just as I would see no reason to
> celebrate Hillary.
>
> Acting as if her corruption is anything special or particularly out of
> line is just a farce. Just like all of American politics.
>
>
> John
>
>> Jim Bell
>>
>>
>>

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 12:56:01AM -0500, grarpamp wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:13 PM, jim bell  wrote:
> > "Chaos" is not identical to "change".  Nevertheless, "Chaos" is a state in
> > which there is very low resistance to change.
> 
> Speaking of chaos...
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=trump+election+protests
> 
> Seems to be a first for any US election.
> Wonder who's behind it

Couldn't be Soros - who would ever believe that?

Besides, nothing quite like "tolerant" leftists protesting violently
...

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[John Newman]

> On Nov 10, 2016, at 10:46 AM, jim bell  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> From: grarpamp 
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 12:56 AM, grarpamp  wrote:
> 
> > Seems to be a first for any US election.
> https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c4xxl/protesters_block_entrance_to_trump_tower/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c1vo7/protests_erupt_following_donald_trumps/
> 
> >This compilation from before election...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMux_UHmpvc
> 
> >Violence not a good solution.
> 
> These people are very misguided.  If anyone, they should be protesting 
> Hillary Clinton, the DNC, John Podesta, her other aides and allies,and the 
> various examples of corruption that have occurred.  Do they not realize that 
> the election went the way it did not merely because of the email leaks, but 
> more fundamentally because these corrupt people did things the way they did, 
> and then they chose to talk about that in a medium that at one point they 
> considered secure and safe.  Didn't turn out to be, huh?
> 
> In, say, 2013, the average Hillary-supporter could have said that she was 
> capable, competent, experienced, and honest, and not risk too much laughter 
> from the rest of us.  By late 2016, everything had changed.  Do her 
> supporters actually believe that the only problem is the exposure of her, 
> rather than her underlying behavior?
> 

Does anyone actually believe Trump is anything but a bloviating gasbag who told 
the racist hordes in America what they wanted to hear? Does he even believe his 
own bullshit - does any politician? 

I see no reason to celebrate Trump, just as I would see no reason to celebrate 
Hillary.

Acting as if her corruption is anything special or particularly out of line is 
just a farce. Just like all of American politics.


John

> Jim Bell
> 
> 
> 

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[jim bell]

 From: juan 
On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 14:14:50 -0500
Steve Kinney  wrote:

>  Bounties for killing the
> operators of an AP system, offered through more old fashioned means,
> would be extraordinarily high - requiring bullet proof anonymity in
> the presence of uber-motivated adversaries with global network
> surveillance capabilities.

>    Hey, but Jim's system (which Tim May 'invented' before Jim I
 >   believe?) would be protected, by, GET THIS, TOR.
That depends on how much you want to distort reality.  I was unaware of the 
existence of the CP list prior to about May 1995, as I recall.  (Someone I 
don't recall forwarded a copy of AP part 1 to the CP list, and then alerted me 
to the list's existence.)
 Prior to that, I was unaware of anything about Tim May except that he had 
worked for Intel (in Santa Clara, California) in the late 70's and early 80's, 
and he had discovered that alpha particles (charged helium nuclei) were the 
main cause of 'soft errors' in DRAMs of that era.  As I learned, much later, 
May (and others) invented the idea of an "Assassination Market", at least what 
I now call the "Anonymous Person A hires Anonymous Person B to kill Person C" 
version.  Entirely unaware of their specific work (but, as I vaguely recall, 
aware of this general concept; I'd probably heard of it, indirectly, from a 
third person whose identity I don't recall), I thought of the "Hundreds, or 
thousands, or millions of 'Person A's', make anonymous contributions to a 
general offer to potentially any 'Person B' to reward him for 'predicting' the 
date of death of 'Person C'.
Are these two models alike?  Kinda-sorta, I suppose.  But I think they would be 
enormously different in effect, for many reasons I need not go into here.  If 
'Assassination Markets' were limited to the former model, very few people would 
be hated, enough, by only one person to obtain a donation sufficient to buy a 
death.  In the latter model, a few million 25-cent donations would get rid of 
nearly all potential targets.
I suggest that I did indeed advance the rhetorical state-of-the-world.  

>    Only very ignorant people would fail to realize that TOR
>    provides bullet proof anonimity, especially against the
>    pentagon.
I didn't mention TOR to imply that it is, in its current form, entirely 
suitable for use in a functioning AP system.  Rather, my intent was to show 
that the kind of tools necessary to implement AP are being considered and 
produced.  Just "the kind of tools", not necessarily the tools themselves.  TOR 
should be made stronger, with more hops, more exit nodes, and more transfer 
nodes, filler traffic, for some examples of improvements.  Bitcoin needs an 
upgrade, for example to Zerocoin, to provide true anonymity, rather than mere 
pseudonymity.  

> The betting pool itself would alert
No, it would not.  Unlike the Federal Government's short-lived proposal in 
2003, PAM "Policy Analysis Markets", (FutureMAP),  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_Analysis_Market   in which the state of 
the betting itself alerts people to threats, a well-designed AP system would 
carefully avoid alerting the public (or anyone) to bets, ideally until later, 
after the event predicted had materialized or failed to materialize.  The 
'money' for the bet might be inside an encryption envelope, without the name of 
the target or date.  Another encryption envelope, inside the first one, could 
contain the target and date information.  The AP organization could decrypt the 
first (outer) envelope, and be unable to decrypt the inner one, at least until 
the password is sent in by the predictor. 
 The AP organization would, however, publish the decrypted contents of the 
outer envelope, so that everyone would know that a prediction with $X of value 
came in on a specific date and time. Nobody, except the predictor, would know 
the identity or date.  Eventually, the inner password would be sent in, used to 
decrypt the inner envelope, with the results published online.  If the AP 
organization cheats, by not failing to perform one of these steps, the 
predictor could publish the inner prediction key himself, disclosing to the 
public that the long-since-published content of the outer encryption envelope 
was a valid prediction, and for some reason (fraud?) the AP organization did 
not play fair.   That would destroy the credibility of that specific AP 
organization; others would soon take its place.

> potential targets to take proportional defensive measures, which "at
> best" would inhibit the social progress promoted by the system.
The system would adapt.  Consider Le Chatlier's Principle.  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Chatelier%27s_principle
A working AP system might, for example, authorize spending (for concreteness) 
10% of donations on defensive contracts:  Consider the effect of a $250,000 
reward on the prosecutor in a case alleging an AP action, or $500,000 for a 
judge.   Or 

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[John Newman]

> On Nov 10, 2016, at 12:26 PM, juan  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 12:06:33 -0500
> John Newman  wrote:
> 
>> 
>>> On Nov 10, 2016, at 10:58 AM, Razer  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 11/10/2016 03:47 AM, John Newman wrote some non-analytical
>>> nonsense:
>>> 
 Violence ended slavery in the South. 
 Violence created the so called "land of the free" =)
 
 Sometimes it's the solution. 
 
 John
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Violence is a tactic. It can LEAD to a solution but it is not the
>>> solution itself
>> 
>> Yes , truly spoken.
>> 
>> The thing about violence is - science has advanced so many "wonderful
>> ways" for us to kill ourselves,
> 
> 
>Not meaning to re-start a flame war =P,  but I think you mean
>technology, not science. Yes, technological development is
>(partly) related to what can be called 'basic' science but
> they are distinct. 
> 
> 
>> it becomes increasingly obvious
>> humanity needs to either disavow war altogether (how to do that I
>> have no idea) or face the inevitable conclusion that we are going to
>> fucking destroy ourselves.
> 
>That's a possibility, but it doesn't strike me as too
>consistent with the 'science' of 'biology' - How many examples
>of species that commit collective suicide are there? Why should
>human *animals* be different? Even inter species competition
>doesn't lead to complete destruction usually.
> 
>On the other hand, given the trends in 'networking' and
>totalitarianism, it wouldn't be too surprising if the human
>race became some sort of collective entity in which our ruling
>monsters (say google and clinton) would act as a 'brain'. 
> 
> 


Bostrum (the simulation hypothesis guy) has some interesting thoughts on the 
future of humanity that basically boil down to a few possibilities, one of 
which is humanity locking itself (forever) into some sort of totalitarian 
dystopia similar to what you outline. 

Fundamentally I think this is the same thing as destroying ourselves outright.



> 
>> Fermi paradox solved =)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> John
> 

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[juan]

On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 14:14:50 -0500
Steve Kinney  wrote:

>  Bounties for killing the
> operators of an AP system, offered through more old fashioned means,
> would be extraordinarily high - requiring bullet proof anonymity in
> the presence of uber-motivated adversaries with global network
> surveillance capabilities.

Hey, but Jim's system (which Tim May 'invented' before Jim I
believe?) would be protected, by, GET THIS, TOR.

Only very ignorant people would fail to realize that TOR
provides bullet proof anonimity, especially against the
pentagon.



> The betting pool itself would alert
> potential targets to take proportional defensive measures, which "at
> best" would inhibit the social progress promoted by the system.
> 
> But other than that...
> 
> :o)
> 
> 
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Re: US: Post Election Protests

[Steve Kinney]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1



On 11/10/2016 01:17 PM, jim bell wrote:

> Governments killed an estimated 240 million people in the 20th
> century. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide , although this
> article does not cite the figure 240 million; I recall the figure
> from elsewhere.)
> 
> If you consider that to have been an unacceptable number, then I
> think you need to try to explain away any system that claims that
> it has the "horsepower" to stop such slaughter.If anything, the
> only criticisms I have heard of AP is that it would be TOO
> effective, not that it would not be powerful enough to get rid of
> the governments that kill.  (And, ultimately, ALL governments.)

As with most elegant solutions to real world problems, the sticking
point with AP is implementation.  It requires anonymous payment
protocols that are themselves "bullet proof", and would have to
weather counter-attacks by a ruling class whose financial resources
and ability to affect major infrastructure changes are astronomically
higher than common sense would suggest.  Bounties for killing the
operators of an AP system, offered through more old fashioned means,
would be extraordinarily high - requiring bullet proof anonymity in
the presence of uber-motivated adversaries with global network
surveillance capabilities.  The betting pool itself would alert
potential targets to take proportional defensive measures, which "at
best" would inhibit the social progress promoted by the system.

But other than that...

:o)


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Re: US: Post Election Protests

[jim bell]

 From: John Newman 
>> On Nov 10, 2016, at 10:58 AM, Razer  wrote:

>> On 11/10/2016 03:47 AM, John Newman wrote some non-analytical nonsense:
> 
>>> Violence ended slavery in the South. 
>>> Violence created the so called "land of the free" =)
>> 
>>> Sometimes it's the solution. 
>>> John
> 
>> Violence is a tactic. It can LEAD to a solution but it is not the
>> solution itself

>Yes , truly spoken.

>The thing about violence is - science has advanced so many "wonderful ways" 
>for us to kill ourselves, it becomes increasingly obvious humanity needs to 
>either disavow war altogether (how to do that I have no idea) 
I DO claim that I have the solution to war.At the risk of tooting my own horn, 
I described (in general terms) the solution to that problem 21 years ago.   
https://cryptome.org/ap.htm    Now, I didn't and don't expect people to 
automatically accept what I wrote, without challenge.  But I think there is a 
certain responsibility of people who continue to argue that there is no general 
solution to the problem of war, to explain why my AP idea can't or won't work. 
See AP, Part 9, where I review a correspondence between Albert Einstein and 
Sigmund Freud, on the subject of war.  
Since 1996, tools like TOR and Bitcoin have been developed, and Ethereum and 
Augur are well on their way. Governments killed an estimated 240 million people 
in the 20th century.  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide , although this 
article does not cite the figure 240 million; I recall the figure from 
elsewhere.)
If you consider that to have been an unacceptable number, then I think you need 
to try to explain away any system that claims that it has the "horsepower" to 
stop such slaughter.    If anything, the only criticisms I have heard of AP is 
that it would be TOO effective, not that it would not be powerful enough to get 
rid of the governments that kill.  (And, ultimately, ALL governments.)
                Jim Bell   

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[jim bell]

 From: grarpamp 
On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 12:56 AM, grarpamp  wrote:
> Seems to be a first for any US 
> election.https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c4xxl/protesters_block_entrance_to_trump_tower/
https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c1vo7/protests_erupt_following_donald_trumps/

>This compilation from before election...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMux_UHmpvc

>Violence not a good solution.
These people are very misguided.  If anyone, they should be protesting Hillary 
Clinton, the DNC, John Podesta, her other aides and allies,and the various 
examples of corruption that have occurred.  Do they not realize that the 
election went the way it did not merely because of the email leaks, but more 
fundamentally because these corrupt people did things the way they did, and 
then they chose to talk about that in a medium that at one point they 
considered secure and safe.  Didn't turn out to be, huh?
In, say, 2013, the average Hillary-supporter could have said that she was 
capable, competent, experienced, and honest, and not risk too much laughter 
from the rest of us.  By late 2016, everything had changed.  Do her supporters 
actually believe that the only problem is the exposure of her, rather than her 
underlying behavior?
        Jim Bell



   

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[juan]

On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 12:19:21 -0500
Steve Kinney  wrote:


> 
> Gene Sharp's description of the American Revolution provides an
> excellent example:  In brief, Sharp contends that the war was largely
> a matter of the Crown attempting to take its colonies back over from
> their residents, who had negated most Crown authority through large
> scale non-cooperation and the development of parallel institutions
> rendering the Crown's administration obsolete.


Crass American Propaganda. There was no 'revolution', just a
coup carried by the most corrupt 'aristocracy' aka oligarchy on
the planet. 


> 
> http://www.fragmentsweb.org/fourtx/dishist.pdf
> 
> So-called revolutions that start with gunfire, end in Fascist police
> states 

Or they start as a slave society, like the US, and remain a
slave society for half its history, like the US, and then become
a global fascist empire, like the US. 


>- because they are not revolutions so much as coups that kick
> out the old bastards to make way for new, worse bastards.  When they
> "succeed" that's normally due to backing by hostile foreign powers.


That would be france backing slave owners jefferson and
washington I suppose =)




> 
> :o)
> 
> 
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Re: US: Post Election Protests

[juan]

On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 12:06:33 -0500
John Newman  wrote:

> 
> > On Nov 10, 2016, at 10:58 AM, Razer  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 11/10/2016 03:47 AM, John Newman wrote some non-analytical
> > nonsense:
> > 
> >> Violence ended slavery in the South. 
> >> Violence created the so called "land of the free" =)
> >> 
> >> Sometimes it's the solution. 
> >> 
> >> John
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Violence is a tactic. It can LEAD to a solution but it is not the
> > solution itself
> 
> Yes , truly spoken.
> 
> The thing about violence is - science has advanced so many "wonderful
> ways" for us to kill ourselves, 


Not meaning to re-start a flame war =P,  but I think you mean
technology, not science. Yes, technological development is
(partly) related to what can be called 'basic' science but
 they are distinct. 


> it becomes increasingly obvious
> humanity needs to either disavow war altogether (how to do that I
> have no idea) or face the inevitable conclusion that we are going to
> fucking destroy ourselves. 

That's a possibility, but it doesn't strike me as too
consistent with the 'science' of 'biology' - How many examples
of species that commit collective suicide are there? Why should
human *animals* be different? Even inter species competition
doesn't lead to complete destruction usually.

On the other hand, given the trends in 'networking' and
totalitarianism, it wouldn't be too surprising if the human
race became some sort of collective entity in which our ruling
monsters (say google and clinton) would act as a 'brain'. 



>Fermi paradox solved =)
> 
> 
> 
> John 

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[Steve Kinney]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1



On 11/10/2016 10:58 AM, Razer wrote:
> 
> 
> On 11/10/2016 03:47 AM, John Newman wrote some non-analytical
> nonsense:
> 
>> Violence ended slavery in the South. Violence created the so
>> called "land of the free" =)
>> 
>> Sometimes it's the solution.
>> 
>> John
> 
> Violence is a tactic. It can LEAD to a solution but it is not the 
> solution itself.
> 
> Rr

Right you are:  Everyone from Mao Tse Tung to the authors of current
U.S. Army counter-insurgency manuals agrees, an armed uprising needs a
/much/ larger network of committed non-combatant supporters to
succeed.  That network has to be built, and it has to offer its
participants "real hope" of a better way of running things, before a
shooting war can succeed.

Gene Sharp's description of the American Revolution provides an
excellent example:  In brief, Sharp contends that the war was largely
a matter of the Crown attempting to take its colonies back over from
their residents, who had negated most Crown authority through large
scale non-cooperation and the development of parallel institutions
rendering the Crown's administration obsolete.

http://www.fragmentsweb.org/fourtx/dishist.pdf

So-called revolutions that start with gunfire, end in Fascist police
states - because they are not revolutions so much as coups that kick
out the old bastards to make way for new, worse bastards.  When they
"succeed" that's normally due to backing by hostile foreign powers.

:o)


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Re: US: Post Election Protests

[Razer]

On 11/10/2016 03:47 AM, John Newman wrote some non-analytical nonsense:

> Violence ended slavery in the South. 
> Violence created the so called "land of the free" =)
>
> Sometimes it's the solution. 
>
> John



Violence is a tactic. It can LEAD to a solution but it is not the
solution itself.

Rr

Ps. Violence did NOT end slavery anywhere in the US. Most Blacks are
still Captive African Colonized People, and slaves. Their "labor" right
now is to be unemployed and living in Gaza-like ghettos where the police
kill and imprison them like fish in a tank, to keep unemployment numbers
up, and wages for the rest of us in control.


>> On Nov 10, 2016, at 3:02 AM, grarpamp  wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 12:56 AM, grarpamp  wrote:
>>> Seems to be a first for any US election.
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c4xxl/protesters_block_entrance_to_trump_tower/
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c1vo7/protests_erupt_following_donald_trumps/
>>
>> This compilation from before election...
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMux_UHmpvc
>>
>> Violence not a good solution.
> Violence ended slavery in the South. 
> Violence created the so called "land of the free" =)
>
> Sometimes it's the solution. 
>
> John


Violence is a tactic. It can LEAD to a solution but it is not the
solution itself.

Rr

Ps. Violence did NOT end slavery anywhere in the US. Most Blacks are
still Captive African Colonized People, and slaves. Their "labor" right
now is to be unemployed and living in Gaza-like ghettos where the police
kill and imprison them like fish in a tank, to keep unemployment numbers
up, and wages for the rest of us in control.

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[Me]

On November 10, 2016 5:47:41 AM CST, John Newman  wrote:
>
>> On Nov 10, 2016, at 3:02 AM, grarpamp  wrote:
>> 
>>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 12:56 AM, grarpamp 
>wrote:
>>> Seems to be a first for any US election.
>> 
>>
>https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c4xxl/protesters_block_entrance_to_trump_tower/
>>
>https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c1vo7/protests_erupt_following_donald_trumps/
>> 
>> This compilation from before election...
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMux_UHmpvc
>> 
>> Violence not a good solution.
>
>Violence ended slavery in the South. 
>Violence created the so called "land of the free" =)
>
>Sometimes it's the solution. 
>
>John

It is never the solution when it is funded and organized by George Soros.

-John

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[John Newman]

> On Nov 10, 2016, at 3:02 AM, grarpamp  wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 12:56 AM, grarpamp  wrote:
>> Seems to be a first for any US election.
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c4xxl/protesters_block_entrance_to_trump_tower/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c1vo7/protests_erupt_following_donald_trumps/
> 
> This compilation from before election...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMux_UHmpvc
> 
> Violence not a good solution.

Violence ended slavery in the South. 
Violence created the so called "land of the free" =)

Sometimes it's the solution. 

John

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[grarpamp]

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 12:56 AM, grarpamp  wrote:
> Seems to be a first for any US election.

https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c4xxl/protesters_block_entrance_to_trump_tower/
https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c1vo7/protests_erupt_following_donald_trumps/

This compilation from before election...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMux_UHmpvc

Violence not a good solution.