Re: The Gentleperson's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)
Yes, all that, assures the Internet is addictive. At 04:56 PM 5/31/2021, Greg Newby wrote: John, On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 07:30:06PM -0400, John Young wrote: > Greg, these complaints seem to fit the disruptive practices of attackers described here: > > https://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm > > Maybe coincidental but not the first to aim at messing with the list. Other lists have been wiped out with endless bitches, accusations, demand for attention. Of possible interest, here is an extract from a WWII-era field manual on sabotage. It highlights a variety of mechanisms to monkey-wrench organizations: Techniques for General Interference with Organizations and Production. Extracted from Project Gutenberg's eBook #26184 (https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/26184). SIMPLE SABOTAGE FIELD MANUAL STRATEGIC SERVICES FIELD MANUAL No. 3 (11) General Interference with Organizations and Production (a) Organizations and Conferences (1) Insist on doing everything through "channels." Never permit short-cuts to be taken in order to expedite decisions. (2) Make "speeches." Talk as frequently as possible and at great length. Illustrate your "points" by long anecdotes and accounts of personal experiences. Never hesitate to make a few appropriate "patriotic" comments. (3) When possible, refer all matters to committees, for "further study and consideration." Attempt to make the committees as large as possible -- never less than five. (4) Bring up irrelevant issues as frequently as possible. (5) Haggle over precise wordings of communications, minutes, resolutions. (6) Refer back to matters decided upon at the last meeting and attempt to re-open the question of the advisability of that decision. (7) Advocate "caution." Be "reasonable" and urge your fellow-conferees to be "reasonable" and avoid haste which might result in embarrassments or difficulties later on. (8) Be worried about the propriety of any decision -- raise the question of whether such action as is contemplated lies within the jurisdiction of the group or whether it might conflict with the policy of some higher echelon. (b) Managers and Supervisors (1) Demand written orders. (2) "Misunderstand" orders. Ask endless questions or engage in long correspondence about such orders. Quibble over them when you can. (3) Do everything possible to delay the delivery of orders. Even though parts of an order may be ready beforehand, don't deliver it until it is completely ready. (4) Don't order new working materials until your current stocks have been virtually exhausted, so that the slightest delay in filling your order will mean a shutdown. (5) Order high-quality materials which are hard to get. If you don't get them argue about it. Warn that inferior materials will mean inferior work. (6) In making work assignments, always sign out the unimportant jobs first. See that the important jobs are assigned to inefficient workers of poor machines. (7) Insist on perfect work in relatively unimportant products; send back for refinishing those which have the least flaw. Approve other defective parts whose flaws are not visible to the naked eye. (8) Make mistakes in routing so that parts and materials will be sent to the wrong place in the plant. (9) When training new workers, give incomplete or misleading instructions. (10) To lower morale and with it, production, be pleasant to inefficient workers; give them undeserved promotions. Discriminate against efficient workers; complain unjustly about their work. (11) Hold conferences when there is more critical work to be done. (12) Multiply paper work in plausible ways. Start duplicate files. (13) Multiply the procedures and clearances involved in issuing instructions, pay checks, and so on. See that three people have to approve everything where one would do. (14) Apply all regulations to the last letter. (c) Office Workers (1) Make mistakes in quantities of material when you are copying orders. Confuse similar names. Use wrong addresses. (2) Prolong correspondence with government bureaus. (3) Misfile essential documents. (4) In making carbon copies, make one too few, so that an extra copying job will have to be done. (5) Tell important callers the boss is busy or talking on another telephone. (6) Hold up mail until the next collection. (7) Spread disturbing rumors that sound like inside dope. (d) Employees (1) Work slowly. Think out ways to increase the number of movements necessary on your job: use a light hammer instead of a heavy one, try to make a small wrench do when a big one is necessary, use little force where considerable force is needed, and so on. (2) Contrive as many interruptions to your work as you can: when changing the material on which you are working, as you would on a lathe or punch, take needless time to do it. If you are cutting, shaping or doing other measured work, measure dimensions twice as o
Re: The Gentleperson's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)
This is a very heartening thing to see. Something to remember is that each one of these tactics also has those rare times when it is valid and important and normal to do. That fact is why groups fall apart. The tactics are two-pronged: if you allow the behavior, capacity is taxed from handling it, if you ban the behavior, effectiveness is lost from being unable to use it when needed, and if you exclude and isolate the behavior people using it can outcompete you. There are solutions but all take some labor and capacity and have risk. One of the risks is of the people obstructing the list learning who is directing the solutions, and what patterns the solutions have. It can then become simple for the disruptors to have a meeting around the new solution and put a secret countersolution into play. Another risk is of excluding real valuable members, as described above. I believe a really important solution to hold a common behavior of talking about the issue and current strategies to handle it. My experience is this norm can quickly fall apart, and to me basically that indicates that people have been maliciously influenced in some way. So, I've been upholding the importance of anonymity here and there. When people are more anonymous, it is more expensive to influence them. I recommend nobody use their legal name, because it is very easy to find people based on a legal name, and it threatens an entire group to have people influenced. It's not great because I'm using my legal name myself, but still :)
The Gentleperson's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)
John, On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 07:30:06PM -0400, John Young wrote: > Greg, these complaints seem to fit the disruptive practices of attackers > described here: > > https://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm > > Maybe coincidental but not the first to aim at messing with the list. Other > lists have been wiped out with endless bitches, accusations, demand for > attention. Of possible interest, here is an extract from a WWII-era field manual on sabotage. It highlights a variety of mechanisms to monkey-wrench organizations: Techniques for General Interference with Organizations and Production. Extracted from Project Gutenberg's eBook #26184 (https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/26184). SIMPLE SABOTAGE FIELD MANUAL STRATEGIC SERVICES FIELD MANUAL No. 3 (11) General Interference with Organizations and Production (a) Organizations and Conferences (1) Insist on doing everything through "channels." Never permit short-cuts to be taken in order to expedite decisions. (2) Make "speeches." Talk as frequently as possible and at great length. Illustrate your "points" by long anecdotes and accounts of personal experiences. Never hesitate to make a few appropriate "patriotic" comments. (3) When possible, refer all matters to committees, for "further study and consideration." Attempt to make the committees as large as possible -- never less than five. (4) Bring up irrelevant issues as frequently as possible. (5) Haggle over precise wordings of communications, minutes, resolutions. (6) Refer back to matters decided upon at the last meeting and attempt to re-open the question of the advisability of that decision. (7) Advocate "caution." Be "reasonable" and urge your fellow-conferees to be "reasonable" and avoid haste which might result in embarrassments or difficulties later on. (8) Be worried about the propriety of any decision -- raise the question of whether such action as is contemplated lies within the jurisdiction of the group or whether it might conflict with the policy of some higher echelon. (b) Managers and Supervisors (1) Demand written orders. (2) "Misunderstand" orders. Ask endless questions or engage in long correspondence about such orders. Quibble over them when you can. (3) Do everything possible to delay the delivery of orders. Even though parts of an order may be ready beforehand, don't deliver it until it is completely ready. (4) Don't order new working materials until your current stocks have been virtually exhausted, so that the slightest delay in filling your order will mean a shutdown. (5) Order high-quality materials which are hard to get. If you don't get them argue about it. Warn that inferior materials will mean inferior work. (6) In making work assignments, always sign out the unimportant jobs first. See that the important jobs are assigned to inefficient workers of poor machines. (7) Insist on perfect work in relatively unimportant products; send back for refinishing those which have the least flaw. Approve other defective parts whose flaws are not visible to the naked eye. (8) Make mistakes in routing so that parts and materials will be sent to the wrong place in the plant. (9) When training new workers, give incomplete or misleading instructions. (10) To lower morale and with it, production, be pleasant to inefficient workers; give them undeserved promotions. Discriminate against efficient workers; complain unjustly about their work. (11) Hold conferences when there is more critical work to be done. (12) Multiply paper work in plausible ways. Start duplicate files. (13) Multiply the procedures and clearances involved in issuing instructions, pay checks, and so on. See that three people have to approve everything where one would do. (14) Apply all regulations to the last letter. (c) Office Workers (1) Make mistakes in quantities of material when you are copying orders. Confuse similar names. Use wrong addresses. (2) Prolong correspondence with government bureaus. (3) Misfile essential documents. (4) In making carbon copies, make one too few, so that an extra copying job will have to be done. (5) Tell important callers the boss is busy or talking on another telephone. (6) Hold up mail until the next collection. (7) Spread disturbing rumors that sound like inside dope. (d) Employees (1) Work slowly. Think out ways to increase the number of movements necessary on your job: use a light hammer instead of a heavy one, try to make a small wrench do when a big one is necessary, use little force where considerable force is needed, and so on. (2) Contrive as many interruptions to your work as you can: when changing the material on which you are working, as you would on a lathe or punch, take needless time to do it. If you are cutting, shaping or doing other measured work, measure dimensions twice as often as you need to. When you go to the lavatory, spend a longer time there than is necessary. Forget tools so that you wi
