Re: Police Worried About New Vest-Penetrating Gun

[Justin]

On 2005-01-15T09:38:23+, Justin wrote:
> On 2005-01-14T15:42:18-0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> > Seems like scare-mongering to me, not a practical concern.
> 
> Of course it's not a practical concern.  Criminals already have access
> to handguns that will defeat common soft body armor.  This media panic
> was instigated by a press release from the Violence Policy Center, which
> has evidently (for now) given up trying to pass a new assault weapon
> ban, and is instead finding new legislative targets.

I didn't remember which group it was, and I guessed wrong.  It wasn't
the VPC.  It was the Brady Campaign/MMM.
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=41691

-- 
"War is the father and king of all, and some he shows as gods, others as men; 
some he makes slaves, others free." -Heraclitus 53

Re: Police Worried About New Vest-Penetrating Gun

[Justin]

On 2005-01-14T15:42:18-0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> At 01:54 PM 1/14/2005, R.A. Hettinga wrote:
> 
> >
> >NEW YORK -- There is a nationwide alert to members of law enforcement
> >regarding a new kind of handgun which can render a bulletproof vest
> >useless, as first reported by NewsChannel 4's Scott Weinberger.
> >...
> >The weapon is light, easily concealable and can fire 20 rounds in seconds
> >without reloading.
> 
> A couple of questions to the gunpunks out there...
> I've heard that rifles easily penetrate bullet-proof vests,
> and that vests are really only useful against average-to-small handguns
> and against shotguns.  Is this accurate?

There are various levels of body armor specified by the NIJ.  In order
of effectiveness (lower to higher): Levels IIa, II, IIIa, III, and IV.
http://www.nlectc.org/txtfiles/BodyArmorStd/NIJSTD010103.html

Level IV typically takes the form of a trauma plate and is put into a
pouch in the front (and/or in the back) of soft body armor.  III and IV
are heavier, bulkier, and as a result aren't used as much.

The NIJ standards are based on stopping standard bullets up to certain
velocity limits (preventing them from going through the vest), _plus_
"backface deformation" limits.  They put the vests over geletin, and the
volume displaced by the vest when it absorbs the shot is measured and
must be less than a specified limit.  There is a lot of sentiment that
this testing method is crap, and all that should matter is whether the
bullet goes through the vest.  Or at least that backface deformation
should be less heavily emphasized.

Then there are other specifications outside of the NIJ scheme; for
instance, the there's "PAGST" and "CRISAT" body armor.  I don't recall
what they stand for.

> Any idea how much you can saw off a rifle
> and still have it penetrate typical cop vests?

A lot.  5.56mm pistols (based on the AR-15 and available from olympic
arms or bushmaster, among other manufacturers) are perfectly legal and
will shoot through IIIa vests.  The real jump up is between IIIa and
III; the former mainly stops handgun rounds, while the latter allegedly
stops standard .223 and .308 loads, but I'm not sure... before I looked
it up just now, I thought only level IV trauma plates stopped .308.
Cops typically wear level II or IIIa armor.

And even trauma plates will not stop repeated hits to the same area.  If
you expect to be shot at with a rifle, you do not want to be out in the
open where many hits are unavoidable.  Ceramic plates weaken through
chipping, and metal plates weaken through stress/deformation.

> (And I assume the "20 rounds in seconds" is just a scary way to say
> "it has a big magazine and you have to pull the trigger 20 times".)

Of course.  Otherwise it would be a machine gun, and new machine guns
are not available to civilians... and haven't been since the 1986
Firearm Owners Protection Act.

The anti-gun forces try hard to associate the assault weapons ban expiry
with the availability of machineguns.  They are lying.

> Also, the police expressed worry that criminals might hear about
> these guns and then the cops would be in big trouble.

This gun, the Five-seveN, has been available for years.  What hasn't
been available for years, I don't think, is the "practice" non-AP
ammunition.  And, of course, some FFLs (gun dealers) are unwilling to
sell the Five-seveN to private citizens.

> Sounds silly to me - while some criminals might buy a
> "cop-killer handgun" for bragging rights,
> random criminals presumably only buy weapons useful for the
> scenarios they imagine being in,

Other armor-piercing handguns include .223 pistols and the CZ 52; there
are also nasty rounds, though generally unavailable, for 9mm handguns
that will penetrate IIIa armor.  Ordinary rounds at +P+ pressures may
even do it.  

The Five-seveN bullets have a muzzle velocity about half-way between
handgun bullet velocities and rifle bullet velocities.  Given the round
diameter (5.7mm) and the short barrel (compared to rifles) of the
Five-seveN, it's essentially a rifle round.  5.56mm pistols fire rounds
with nearly the same diameter, though they weigh more (5.7mm bullets are
~30gr, standard 5.56mm is 55 or 62gr) and therefore require more powder
to achieve the same velocities.  Hence the longer cartridges for 5.56mm
(I use .223 and 5.56 interchangably; they're technically not the same
thing but close enough for government work).

Most .223 pistols are based on the AR-15, so their magazines attach
outside of the pistol grip and make them look scarier.  That also makes
them slightly less concealable, which is why they're not being attacked
by the anti-gun forces.  Perhaps the anti-gunners don't think they're
legal.

> which is Saturday Night Specials for most applications,
> or whatever currently fashionable Mac10/Uzi/etc.
> for druglord armies that expect to be shooting at each other,
> or rifles for distance work and dual-use pickup

Re: Police Worried About New Vest-Penetrating Gun

[Justin]

On 2005-01-14T16:54:32-0500, R.A. Hettinga wrote:
> 
> 
> Police Worried About New Vest-Penetrating Gun

I care?  Well, perhaps I do... I should go pick one up before they're
banned.

>  The most shocking fact may be that the gun -- known as the "five-seven" --
> is being marketed to the public, and it's completely legal

The name is "Five-seveN."  It's made by Fabrique Nationale (FN).

Allegedly the U.S. secret service likes the Five-seveN, along with the
FN P90 (unavailable to civilians except title 2 firearms dealers because
it's only made in a select-fire version).  They both use the same 5.7mm
rounds, which makes logistics easier.  Of course, they also use MP5s and
9mm handguns...

Other guns with civilian-legal "armor-piercing" ammo include the CZ-52,
.223 pistols, and most all rifles.

> At a distance of 21 feet, Trumball police Sgt. Lenny Scinto fired the
> five-seven with the ammo sold legally to the public into a standard police
> vest. All three penetrated the vest.

The real ammo penetrates CRISAT/PAGST armor at 100m and 300m
respectively.  Level 2 or 3a armor is really rather pathetic.

> Back in Trumball, Scinto said his officers would have to rethink how to
> protect the public and protect themselves.

Police have no duty to protect the public.  Anyway, most of "the public"
doesn't walk around wearing vests, so protecting "the public" from these
is no different than protecting them from other firearms.  Protecting
the police from these is no different than protecting them from rifles.
Only trauma plates can stop pointy, high-velocity rounds.

> "This is going to add a whole new dimension to training and tactics. With
> the penetration of these rounds, you're going to have to find something
> considerably heavier than we normally use for cover and concealment to stop
> this round," Scinto said.

Cool, more LEOs instantly recognizable as beetles, having exoskeletons.
I recommend Kafka's Metamorphoses to them as sociological grounding for
what sort of reaction they can expect.

-- 
"War is the father and king of all, and some he shows as gods, others as men; 
some he makes slaves, others free." -Heraclitus 53

Re: Police Worried About New Vest-Penetrating Gun

[Bill Stewart]

At 01:54 PM 1/14/2005, R.A. Hettinga wrote:

NEW YORK -- There is a nationwide alert to members of law enforcement
regarding a new kind of handgun which can render a bulletproof vest
useless, as first reported by NewsChannel 4's Scott Weinberger.
...
The weapon is light, easily concealable and can fire 20 rounds in seconds
without reloading.
A couple of questions to the gunpunks out there...
I've heard that rifles easily penetrate bullet-proof vests,
and that vests are really only useful against average-to-small handguns
and against shotguns.  Is this accurate?
Any idea how much you can saw off a rifle
and still have it penetrate typical cop vests?
(And I assume the "20 rounds in seconds" is just a scary way to say
"it has a big magazine and you have to pull the trigger 20 times".)
Also, the police expressed worry that criminals might hear about
these guns and then the cops would be in big trouble.
Sounds silly to me - while some criminals might buy a
"cop-killer handgun" for bragging rights,
random criminals presumably only buy weapons useful for the
scenarios they imagine being in,
which is Saturday Night Specials for most applications,
or whatever currently fashionable Mac10/Uzi/etc.
for druglord armies that expect to be shooting at each other,
or rifles for distance work and dual-use pickup-truck decoration.
Do many criminals expect to initiate shootouts with vest-wearing cops
in scenarios where a rifle isn't practical?
Do most cops wear bullet-proof vests regularly other than in
holdup/hostage SWAT situations, where the criminal might have rifles anyway,
and where a regular pistol is just fine for shooting hostages?
Or is this mainly a problem for the cases when cops want to stage
military-style pre-dawn assaults on people's houses,
where they expect that the targets usually only have
pistols handy near the bed and don't have time for rifles?
Seems like scare-mongering to me, not a practical concern.



Bill Stewart  [EMAIL PROTECTED]