Re: Vengeance Libertarianism
At 12:58 PM 1/5/04 -0600, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >With that evidence in hand, the employer calls them up and tells them >to be at work the next day -- or be fired. If I were the employer, I >wouldn't even give them that second chance. Motivation might be loss of training or worry over lawsuit? The state of CA was running adverts last year reminding the volk that its a felony to fake disability for worker's comp. My wife's a shrink, she has had occasion to evaluate people for mental distress (for worker's comp) caused by work. Sometimes they piggyback pre-existing problems onto their claims, sometimes people or conditions at work would screw with anyone's head. Sometimes they regard her (the examining shrink) as an adversary, sometimes a friend. I imagine same goes for visceral physicians too -though pain is as easy to fake as anguish. The technical term for faking it is 'malingering'. Some of the questions in standard written exams try to detect this, as well as the opposite, concealment. (There are times when you want to conceal a condition that you are aware of.)
Re: Vengeance Libertarianism
At 12:45 PM 12/31/03 -0800, Tim May wrote: ... I don't claim this is a "right" implicit in the fabric of space-time, or handed down by Moloch or YHWH or some other supernatural myth-figure. Rather, societies which have taken money from workers to give to others to sit at home and breed or eat Doritos while watching Oprah have failed. Well, western democracies seem to be surviving okay while maintaining big social welfare states. This looks like an efficiency issue to me; it's basically sucking some fraction of the total production of the society off the top to maintain a welfare state, but doesn't seem to be sucking the whole system down. Presumably this works out only to the extent that most people can't or won't go on welfare. And the thing that currently looks like it *might* suck currently successful societies down is taxpayer-financed pension schemes for everyone who gets old. In that case, the size of the pool of recipients is growing very quickly, for demographic reasons that don't seem possible to change. Also, while really poor people often don't don't vote and aren't elloquent or effective at demanding increases to their benefits, people close to retirement age (50s) are at the peak of their political power, vote in large numbers, and are quite good at demanding expanded benefits without sounding like welfare queens demanding more money for crack and beer. (Farmers are also really good at this, but they aren't numerous enough to be more than a pinprick to the taxpayers.) The "no work, no eat" principle has a problem here, too. Most of the soon-to-retire *have* worked, and done so under a "bargain" that promised them some benefits at retirement in exchange for what they were paying in. Millions of people are convinced they have those benefits coming. These people include productive workers from every area of life, and aren't generally people it's easy to dismiss as parasites. Whether you've worked your whole life as a garbage collector or as an electrical engineer, you're likely to expect those social security checks to roll in on schedule, along with medicare, the new prescription drug benefit, and any number of other goodies. ... --Tim May --John Kelsey, [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP: FA48 3237 9AD5 30AC EEDD BBC8 2A80 6948 4CAA F259
Re: Vengeance Libertarianism
On Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 10:23:27AM -0500, Michael Kalus wrote: > If mankind would act that way we would have been extinct a long time > ago. A single human being is a rather weak individual. There isn't much > we could have done. ... > Even though I do not agree with people sitting on their asses and not > working, I do not think that we should turn our backs to them and ignore > them. If society casts out the weakest as a strategie of survival than > something here is horribly wrong. This is trite nonsense that is not really interesting or responsive to Tim's claims. Obviously voluntary trade and other forms of economic cooperation in a large marketplace, the more global the better, is the best way to create wealth. Corporations like Tim's former employer Intel could not exist otherwise. But the emphasis, which you missed, is on the phrase "voluntary." -Declan
Re: Vengeance Libertarianism
On Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 12:45:51PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > those working had to work even harder. A vicious circle, much like the > one now facing American industry, where more and more workers are > claiming bogus "disability" and where the insurance costs are driving > companies out of the country. One of my cousins is married to a private investigator who does work for insurance companies. Over the Christmas holiday I chatted with him for the first time in some detail about his work. Turns out that many people (he says) take paid disability leave from their company to work at a temporary under-the-table job or take legitimate disability leave and then decide they like not working so decide to make it permanent. He sits outside their houses in a van with tinted windows and takes video and photos of them driving to their temp job, cleaning gutters, going for a jog, and so on -- after they claimed they are no longer to walk. With that evidence in hand, the employer calls them up and tells them to be at work the next day -- or be fired. If I were the employer, I wouldn't even give them that second chance. -Declan
Re: Vengeance Libertarianism
On Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 04:38:04AM -0800, John Young wrote: > What's pleasurable about reading the fiction of ideologues like > Tim is the smack-down tone of their prejudices. Fake, fake, > fake. > > Nowhere in Tim's spew is the recognition that the largest > beneficiaries of government favoritism are corporations and > wealthy individuals like himself, especially those associated with > the greeders of the defense industry, rather the national > security state. No US institution has been uncontaminated > by the wealth generated by the illusion of US enemies and the > raping of the economy to simulate battle with such fictional > threats, at home and abroad. Perhaps it is more thetorically satisfying? I can't speak for Tim or his writing process. But nowhere have I ever seen him support corporate welfare, and in fact the logical flow of his argument made in the post to which you replied would condemn that as well. More importantly, your claims are incorrect. Defense is $379 billion for FY2003, while social security, income security, medicare, health, education and other social services, community development, housing credits, and so on total over $1358 billion. That's not counting "international affairs" (a category I take to include foreign aid), agriculture, transportation, and other programs of dubious necessity that total hundreds of billions more. -Declan Source: http://www.bea.gov/bea/ARTICLES/2002/03March/0302FedBudget.pdf
Re: Vengeance Libertarianism and Hot Negresses
At 08:53 PM 12/31/03 -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: You'd >dice and slice an African American population, but then again it's from >these inner cities that much of popular American culture has arisen (ie, >between pro sports, various forms of music and so on...). Is this supposed to be an argument *for* the AA pop? None of us, even TM, methinks, has anything against anyone for where their ancestors came. Many of us have much against various *cultures*, which are by definition voluntary, unlike albedo. Cultures being chosen sets of values, values being moral, ergo judgeable. Genes being inherited are largely irrelevant to the discussion. Trash is trash, it doesn't matter the color of the bag containing it. And noble metals come in many colors.
Re: Vengeance Libertarianism
At 08:45 PM 12/31/03 -0500, John Kelsey wrote: > >You do know she's been trying the same scheme for several hundred thousand >years, right? As an artist, I think she's in a creative decline. Ebola is >picturesque and flashy, but not all that scary unless your funeral rites >involve lots of contact with the blood of your dearly departed. I think E. is a bit more contagious than you recognize. It just hasn't had the chance to play in dense pops. AIDS is >more subtle, rather like syphlus before good antibiotics, but it's not her >best work. Yeah but the meatbots do love to spread it, and here you again fail to recognize Her subtlety. Even SARS is Yet Another Coughed Contagion. If I recall >correctly, smallpox got 90% of the American Indians who were exposed, and >measles killed something like 1/3 of Roman citizens. Smallpox would reduce real estate prices by 1/3 at least, possibly more in cities. An interesting question is what decline (and what rate of decline) west.civ. can tolerate these days. Still, looking at the Roman Empire (aka paleo-cons) disease isn't necessary, though it sure helps. Famine and war are pretty good cards in Her Hands too. Guns, germs, and steel, baby.
Re: Vengeance Libertarianism
On Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 01:14:01PM -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote: > On Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 01:59:50PM -0500, Sunder wrote: > > If those are your beliefs, then by all means, set the first example, and > > go kill yourself. Better yet, sacrifice yourself to your goddess... By > > doing so, you'll also earn yourself a Darwin Award... unless you've > > already fathered kids... But from your tone of voice, I'd say you've > > probably castrated yourself years ago. > > No, I have offspring. But what makes you think I'm human? The painful banality and stupidity of the junk you're spouting is a good indicator. -- avva
Re: Vengeance Libertarianism and Hot Black Chicks
On Dec 31, 2003, at 5:53 PM, Tyler Durden wrote: PS: Is there any comment that Mr May would like to profer on the issue of having been rejected by some hot black tail back in the day? (ie, aside from "I'd like to see you are your infant children stripped of epidermis and dipped in seasalt") First, please stop including the entire message you are responding to, plus the parts you comment on. I dislike editing other people's sloppiness as much as I dislike paying for their breeding choices. Second, your comment above merits no response. --Tim May
Re: Vengeance Libertarianism
>On 31 Dec 2003 at 12:45, Tim May wrote: >> People like Tyler Durden, James Donald, and John Young are >> using the tired old cliches about how it is "society that >> paid for business" and hence "society" has some right to take >> a cut of each transaction between Alice and Bob. No, Tyler, James and John said none of the alleged cliches. These are chimeras Tim fantasizes to buttress his demotic vainglory, bless his shriveled heart, his throbbing headcrimp. Still, I think Tim is the funniest of cypherpunks, though it takes a strong stomach, or a cruelty-is-pleasure likemind, to enjoy his dry as sand grist. Gypsies, as with welfare cheats, talk the talk of Tim, imitating those who disparage the outcast, who refuses to hold a steady job, too smart to fall for the call to pull your fair share load. When Tim gets going on his seemingly vile attacks on the downtrodden it is admirably like the downtrodden I grew up with: it takes one to know one, and their vulnerabilities, those of the outcast eager to hammer, ridicule, belly laugh at, those of similar condemnation by inbred supremacists, themselves not long out of the ghetto. Nietzsche called this shot as he too shot himself futilely professing claims of superiority. What can you do when society at large remains indifferent to your plight except propound your virtues despite those virtues being named by the dominant society as faults. Calvin spouted the lament of the excluded, proclaimed the outcasts the chosen, aping those who armed the peasants against their masters. Stigma is inescapable until you overthrow the stigmatizers, and in turn stigmatize others to maintain your evanescent superiority, as did your oppressors, and will do again as soon as they whip your lazy ass grown soft by belief you're impregnable. So goes the fall of empires, so goes the blinding conceit, crippling addiction, of supremacists of any skin hue, of any economic surety. The yawning grave beckons the folly peddlers of immortality, of singular salvation from terror of utter cessation. A joke, human aspiration for higher being. Thus spake Zarathrustra.
Re: Vengeance Libertarianism
At 10:18 AM 12/31/03 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote: It's not that just some humans are "useless eaters", it's that all are, and the Goddess Gaia is clearly hard at work trying to rectify this situation with a variety of new bioweapons, i.e., AIDS, ebola, etc. which will soon, I'm sure, reduce the human population as is most necessary, by half, if not three-quarters, or perhaps just eliminate it all together -- to the wild applause of the rest of the Earth. You do know she's been trying the same scheme for several hundred thousand years, right? As an artist, I think she's in a creative decline. Ebola is picturesque and flashy, but not all that scary unless your funeral rites involve lots of contact with the blood of your dearly departed. AIDS is more subtle, rather like syphlus before good antibiotics, but it's not her best work. Even SARS is Yet Another Coughed Contagion. If I recall correctly, smallpox got 90% of the American Indians who were exposed, and measles killed something like 1/3 of Roman citizens. Bubonic and pneumonic plague swept through European cities and wiped out huge numbers of people, and they're still with us, though mainly places with lousy public health and sanitation. And lets not forget her original innovation for discouraging cities, death-by-crapping-out-all-your-electrolytes. If diseases get us, they won't be Gaia's work, but rather some of her more modern imitators in the bioweapons labs of various countries. Like every great artist, she's spawned a host of followers, mostly not too imaginative, but some of whom may take her ideas and techniques to undreamt-of levels. ... Harmon Seaver --John (*cough, cough*) Kelsey, [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP: FA48 3237 9AD5 30AC EEDD BBC8 2A80 6948 4CAA F259
Re: Vengeance Libertarianism
The real problem is that the human race itself is either an alien species that doesn't belong on this planet, or perhaps just an evolutionary mishap akin to a cancer that has used far more than it's fair share of world resources. It's not that just some humans are "useless eaters", it's that all are, and the Goddess Gaia is clearly hard at work trying to rectify this situation with a variety of new bioweapons, i.e., AIDS, ebola, etc. which will soon, I'm sure, reduce the human population as is most necessary, by half, if not three-quarters, or perhaps just eliminate it all together -- to the wild applause of the rest of the Earth. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com
Re: Vengeance Libertarianism
In a message dated 12/31/2003 4:44:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Nowhere in Tim's spew is the recognition that the largest beneficiaries of government favoritism are corporations and wealthy individuals like himself Government favoritism? It sounds like you don't believe a raising tide lifts all ships. Tim is entitled to keep the wealth he has earned, when it's taken its called stealing. The rich fear the poor, and rightly so, for they know who pays for their perks. What commie nonsense. Wasn't it a leftist who coined Goldwater's most memorable phrase? The libertarian Karl Hess wrote most of Goldwater's speeches, but the quote you mention was one popularized by Ben Franklin who in turn was using an unattributed Latin quote. Regards, Matt Gaylor-
Re: Vengeance Libertarianism
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003, Tim May wrote: > Vengeance libertarianism is the rational kind. It will result in 20-40 > million of the leeches, the bums, the minority grifters, the so-called > aggrieved, the winos, the addicts, all being sent up the chimneys. It will result in couple dozen (at most) vengeance "libertatians" being steamrolled over by the masses of those they so despise, after first few shots. Face it, you're outgunned. > The world will learn a lesson when we burn off these criminals. Who "we"? Is there somebody other who thinks it's a viable idea, or is it a grammatical form of the "We the King" type?
Re: Vengeance Libertarianism
Tim May wrote: For every negro welfare momma who took money for the past number of years, tell her to pay it all back, with compounded interest, or face time in a labor camp to repay what she stole. And if she cannot, or will not, which is ovewhelmingly likely, harvest her organs (if any takers can be found) and send the leftovers up the smokestacks. Ditto for the queers who have collected "public health" funds to pay for their sodomy. (I have no issue with their choices of partners, except that the diseases they contract via their habits, and their inability to work, is their problem, not mine. And not any corporations, except by the choice of that corporation.) Vengeance libertarianism is the rational kind. It will result in 20-40 million of the leeches, the bums, the minority grifters, the so-called aggrieved, the winos, the addicts, all being sent up the chimneys. See, the problem with your attitude is that it results in a "me me me" approach. If mankind would act that way we would have been extinct a long time ago. A single human being is a rather weak individual. There isn't much we could have done. Only after we managed to work together as a society we were able to "conquer" the planet, and most likely ultimatly destroy it for all forms of life. Even though I do not agree with people sitting on their asses and not working, I do not think that we should turn our backs to them and ignore them. If society casts out the weakest as a strategie of survival than something here is horribly wrong. Your Stereotyping doesn't really help either to make your point as they are just simply painting black and white, and literally meaning it that way. Quality of Life has nothing to do with how much money you make, but how you live your life. This seems to be something that is slowly forgotten in the western world, especially north america. M.
Re: Vengeance Libertarianism
What's pleasurable about reading the fiction of ideologues like Tim is the smack-down tone of their prejudices. Fake, fake, fake. Nowhere in Tim's spew is the recognition that the largest beneficiaries of government favoritism are corporations and wealthy individuals like himself, especially those associated with the greeders of the defense industry, rather the national security state. No US institution has been uncontaminated by the wealth generated by the illusion of US enemies and the raping of the economy to simulate battle with such fictional threats, at home and abroad. Welfare is puny by comparison, and Tim's castigation of it is like the master of the house bitching about health needs of his servants while requiring them to wipe his ass. Standard nouveau riche conceit which reveals a fear of again being a poor asswipe himself, the stench of self-loathing inescapable. The favorite mindlessness of the ideologue, is to rehash endlessly comfortable old prejudices, chanting repetitively the same accusations, avoiding self-criticism in the manner of the self-righteous, professing of certainty to conceal doubt, working hard to present an image of confidence, most often by blaming and attacking easy targets. The rich fear the poor, and rightly so, for they know who pays for their perks. And the answer to this fear is always threats of violence, the dominant paradigm of those who reap the most benefits from house rules of the United States. Cloaked, as ever, in blind faith in the "Constitution," or another rigged fat cat document used to fleece the peasants at home and abroad, based as they always are on justification of the supremacy of the over-privileged. Eveready to shoot those who disagree, send them up the chimneys, the teenie-bopper ideologue struts mightily against imaginary demons. Wasn't it a leftist who coined Goldwater's most memorable phrase? Extremists are all alike, full of shit and hatred, their own worst enemy. Suicide prone, but afraid to go alone.
Vengeance Libertarianism
On Dec 30, 2003, at 10:01 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (This space reserved for former Marxist and now neocon standard-bearer James Donald to foam that I am a Saddam lover and a supporter of Chomsky.) I will say that I was a a former marxist. This is not to bow at the feet of some better method, nor to trivialize the past. My awakening, as it were, actually happened here, for better or worse. Tim, Hal, Lucky, Uni and to some extent Detweiler all helped form my view. More than a few others. This was back in '93, mostly. At least, the founding, for me was then. I know some things happened later (I saw Uni present his Coke Presentation in 2002 for the first time), and I became concerned with business, or at least companies that wanted cash, and to be a business later. I never went through a Marxist phase, never even came close. This despite entering college in 1970, this despite going to a school where the dominant paradigm was leftist (UC Santa Barbara). I occasionally wonder what my perspective might be had I ever held leftist, collectivist thoughts. Oh well, I'll never know. Thirty years ago I _was_ more charitable about the various groups which claim to have been aggrieved, and I dutifully referred to negroes as "blacks," argued earnestly with doubting leftists about the importance of the profit motive, cited semi-leftists who had reasonable things to say about capitalism and liberty and the Constitution. But over the years, as I have seen a huge chunk of money taken from me at gunpoint and given to welfare skanks, inner city negro mutants, gay activist buttfucker San Francisco queer groups, foreign nations with dictators like Hussein (both of them), Mubarek, Amin, Meir, Rabin, and a hundred others, and as education has declined while the pigeons demand more handouts...I have become what I call a "vengeance libertarian." While certain theoreticians of 30 years argued for silly ideas about how how it is "immoral" to land on another's balcony while falling from a building, because the property rights had not been negotiated, and thus argued that even self-defense is fraught with moral problems, another camp of us were developing the idea that vengeance is good, that crypto anarchy will not only let some of us "withdraw from the system," a la Galt's Gulch, but also it will let us execute justice on those who stole from us. For every negro welfare momma who took money for the past number of years, tell her to pay it all back, with compounded interest, or face time in a labor camp to repay what she stole. And if she cannot, or will not, which is ovewhelmingly likely, harvest her organs (if any takers can be found) and send the leftovers up the smokestacks. Ditto for the queers who have collected "public health" funds to pay for their sodomy. (I have no issue with their choices of partners, except that the diseases they contract via their habits, and their inability to work, is their problem, not mine. And not any corporations, except by the choice of that corporation.) Vengeance libertarianism is the rational kind. It will result in 20-40 million of the leeches, the bums, the minority grifters, the so-called aggrieved, the winos, the addicts, all being sent up the chimneys. Hitler had only minor reasons to go after the Jews (many of them had manipulated the economy to favor Jews while also preaching a "no defense" loser strategy to their untermenschen), we have much more reason to go after the tens of millions of underpeople who have been using their thugs in government to steal from us. We have much more justification today to liquidate the parsites than Hitler ever had. As for government, I estimate that 99% of those in Congress and government agencies in the past 40 years have earned killing. Of current Congressvarmints, only two seem to be not guilty. Of low-level employees, a bunch are just willing dweebs, and may be able to work off their debts in a labor camp for a decade or two. But probably the cleaner solution is just to do a thermonuclear cauterization of the region surrounding Washington and start fresh from there with a very limited government that honors the Constitution instead of catering to negroes and queers and welfare addicts. Crypto anarchy will make delivering justice to tens of millions a reality. The world will learn a lesson when we burn off these criminals. --Tim May "Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice."--Barry Goldwater
