subject:"Why not\?"


On Mon, 20 Dec 2004, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:

 Agreed, if you want
 

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what it boils down to.  You *want*
things your own way, but you are too fucking spoiled to fight fo it - so
instead you whine and moan.

Put up or shut up.

Either you fight it with your most effective weapon (dollars), or you
actively support it (again, with dollars).  There is no middle ground.

-- 
Yours,

J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
0xBD4A95BF

 Civilization is in a tailspin - everything is backwards, everything is
upside down- doctors destroy health, psychiatrists destroy minds, lawyers
destroy justice, the major media destroy information, governments destroy
freedom and religions destroy spirituality - yet it is claimed to be
healthy, just, informed, free and spiritual. We live in a social system
whose community, wealth, love and life is derived from alienation,
poverty, self-hate and medical murder - yet we tell ourselves that it is
biologically and ecologically sustainable.

The Bush plan to screen whole US population for mental illness clearly
indicates that mental illness starts at the top.

Rev Dr Michael Ellner

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?


On Mon, 20 Dec 2004, Tyler Durden wrote:

 Well, there's a TINY little hole in your logic here...

 Scale of distance is the only difference.  Either you support the system
 or you don't.  I don't: I either drive to jobs (charging for mileage) or I
 pass on them, rather than take part in the police state that is todays air
 system.  You have the very same choices.  The argument eveyone is making
 here is that it is too much of an inconvenience (financial or otherwise),
 *not* to fly.  Sorry, but that's just pure self-serving BS.

 For one, Flying can easily be a requirement, not an option.

You keep asserting this, but at the same time fail to provide an example.
Please show how flying can easily be a requirement, not an option.  One
legitimate example will suffice.


 But that's besides the point here.

No - that's the entire point here.


 The real point is that some Super-JAT could (5 years from now when there are
 ubiquitous highway checkpoints) argue that walking from NYC to Boston may
 be difficult but it IS possible. Or of course (after Tenent's vision for
 the internet is realized) You could simply Fedex those files, you don't
 need to use the internet

So, your position is that we should not take action now, because we may
have to take the same action later?

If people would assert their economic powers today through refusal to fund
the airlines, the same threat would prevent your example from being
possible in the future.  The only reason your walking scenario is even a
little plausible is because TheMan/G'mint/etc., knows that there will be
no pushback on *any* front.

Also, not that while airlines are heavily regulated, they are not
(theoretically at least) publicly funded, and as such, your right to use
them is limited - whereas roads are public property, and will be a lot
harder to place prohibitions upon.  A real boycott of airlines would take
only days to bring both the airlines and the TSA to it's knees - the
economic impact would be both national in scope and immediate in effect:
you can make no legitimate argument for not addressing the TSA problem
head on.

-- 
Yours,

J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
0xBD4A95BF

 Civilization is in a tailspin - everything is backwards, everything is
upside down- doctors destroy health, psychiatrists destroy minds, lawyers
destroy justice, the major media destroy information, governments destroy
freedom and religions destroy spirituality - yet it is claimed to be
healthy, just, informed, free and spiritual. We live in a social system
whose community, wealth, love and life is derived from alienation,
poverty, self-hate and medical murder - yet we tell ourselves that it is
biologically and ecologically sustainable.

The Bush plan to screen whole US population for mental illness clearly
indicates that mental illness starts at the top.

Rev Dr Michael Ellner

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

2004-12-21 Thread Tyler Durden

JAT wrote...
You keep asserting this, but at the same time fail to provide an example.
Please show how flying can easily be a requirement, not an option. One
legitimate example will suffice.
Later. (Actually, I didn't 'keep asserting this', but that's a separate
matter)

So, your position is that we should not take action now, because we may
have to take the same action later?
Well, that's a good point...I think I viewed your previous analysis on a
more philosophical level (because that's how it was phrased), but when you
put it this way it starts to make some sense. In other words, avoiding
travel whenever possible will (when added to sheeple starting to do the same
because of all the terible screening stories) eventually start putting some
squeeze on the airlines. (But then again, DC has plenty of our tax dollars
ready to bail out an incompetent set of airline managers.) It won't hurt at
least.

As for the former, I am suprised you even need examples...asking for them
weakens your main point.
There are plenty of examples to be had, and I'll give you an easy one.
You're a hot looking, leggy and not super-bright saleschick that ALWAYS
makes the sale in person (read: Big Bonuses), and much less frequently over
the phone (read: failed sales quotas and eventual layoff). Your territory is
Northwest meaning Oregon, NO Cal, Washington, Vancouver, and lots of those
weird states over there like Idaho and whatnot. You can't possibly drive
fast enough to make all your meetings in your territory. Will you...

1) Phone it in
2) Do some kind of lameass video conferencing
3) Fly
4) Get a job at McDonalds
tiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktiktik
RING! Times up...

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?


On Tue, 21 Dec 2004, Tyler Durden wrote:

 put it this way it starts to make some sense. In other words, avoiding
 travel whenever possible will (when added to sheeple starting to do the same
 because of all the terible screening stories) eventually start putting some
 squeeze on the airlines.

I expect that eventually in this context would == (hours to [one or two]
days)


 (But then again, DC has plenty of our tax dollars ready to bail out an
 incompetent set of airline managers.) It won't hurt at least.

Even DC can't bail out *all* the airlines.  That kind of boycott *would*
hurt, and hurt badly.  And *fast*.


 As for the former, I am suprised you even need examples...asking for them
 weakens your main point.
 There are plenty of examples to be had, and I'll give you an easy one.
 You're a hot looking, leggy and not super-bright saleschick that ALWAYS
 makes the sale in person (read: Big Bonuses), and much less frequently over
 the phone (read: failed sales quotas and eventual layoff). Your territory is
 Northwest meaning Oregon, NO Cal, Washington, Vancouver, and lots of those
 weird states over there like Idaho and whatnot. You can't possibly drive
 fast enough to make all your meetings in your territory. Will you...

 1) Phone it in
 2) Do some kind of lameass video conferencing
 3) Fly
 4) Get a job at McDonalds

First of all, this is a *great* example of why flying is an *option*, and
not a requirement.  That said, option number 4 is the obvious choice -
however, our leggy bimbo's mileage may vary.

The people of this country have long lost their voice for anything but
whining about how bad things are.  Since collectively, our economic voice
is our loudest voice, it is the one that should be used for the effecting
of immediate and comprehensive change.  The various non-arguments against
this all amount to the same thing: we want change, but we don't want to
have to do anything that might also have any kind of unpleasantness
associated with it.  Fuck that shit.  Either you believe that this shit
is wrong, and you are willing to put your money where your mouth is, or
you can STFU when the nice TSA lady jams her fist up your ass looking for
a reason to show you who's really in charge here.

-- 
Yours,

J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
0xBD4A95BF

 Civilization is in a tailspin - everything is backwards, everything is
upside down- doctors destroy health, psychiatrists destroy minds, lawyers
destroy justice, the major media destroy information, governments destroy
freedom and religions destroy spirituality - yet it is claimed to be
healthy, just, informed, free and spiritual. We live in a social system
whose community, wealth, love and life is derived from alienation,
poverty, self-hate and medical murder - yet we tell ourselves that it is
biologically and ecologically sustainable.

The Bush plan to screen whole US population for mental illness clearly
indicates that mental illness starts at the top.

Rev Dr Michael Ellner

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

2004-12-21 Thread Shawn K. Quinn

[Note, I'm on the list, and I don't need two copies of every message in
this thread]

On Tue, 2004-12-21 at 06:34 -0600, J.A. Terranson wrote:
 On Mon, 20 Dec 2004, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:
 
  Agreed, if you want
  
 
 And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what it boils down to.  You *want*
 things your own way, but you are too fucking spoiled to fight fo it - so
 instead you whine and moan.

Did you even read the rest of the post?

Let me requote what I actually wrote, in its entirety.

 Agreed, if you want or need to get between cities faster than land-based
 travel will allow, flying is in fact a requirement. That was, in fact, my 
 point. 

If you *need* to be somewhere 1000 miles or more away within a few
hours, driving, riding Greyhound, or riding Amtrak are NOT OPTIONS.

If you *need* to get to Hawaii, Puerto Rico, etc., driving, riding
Greyhound, or riding Amtrak are NOT OPTIONS.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

2004-12-21 Thread Eugen Leitl

On Tue, Dec 21, 2004 at 11:57:08AM -0600, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:

 If you *need* to get to Hawaii, Puerto Rico, etc., driving, riding
 Greyhound, or riding Amtrak are NOT OPTIONS.

Emigration is always an option, though. Quite a few have done that already.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a
__
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net


pgp3lMqfRO6lw.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

2004-12-21 Thread Justin

On 2004-12-21T10:38:10-0600, J.A. Terranson wrote:
 On Tue, 21 Dec 2004, Tyler Durden wrote:
 
  put it this way it starts to make some sense. In other words, avoiding
  travel whenever possible will (when added to sheeple starting to do the same
  because of all the terible screening stories) eventually start putting some
  squeeze on the airlines.
 
 I expect that eventually in this context would == (hours to [one or two]
 days)

Academic.  Everyone will not boycott, so the time frame will increase.

  (But then again, DC has plenty of our tax dollars ready to bail out an
  incompetent set of airline managers.) It won't hurt at least.
 
 Even DC can't bail out *all* the airlines.  That kind of boycott *would*
 hurt, and hurt badly.  And *fast*.

Never play chicken with the federal government.  They can bail out all
the airlines (minus one: they don't need to bail out Southwest
Airlines).  They'd just need to raise taxes or increase the debt,
neither of which is a major impediment.

  1) Phone it in
  2) Do some kind of lameass video conferencing
  3) Fly
  4) Get a job at McDonalds
 
 First of all, this is a *great* example of why flying is an *option*, and
 not a requirement.  That said, option number 4 is the obvious choice -
 however, our leggy bimbo's mileage may vary.

This is a bit misleading.  The leggy bimbo can choose option 4 if she's
not smart enough to do something else... like _local_ sales, or even
starting up a psychic reading shop and making lots of money from other
bimbos.

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

2004-12-21 Thread Major Variola (ret)

At 04:23 PM 12/19/04 -0500, Tyler Durden wrote:
Funny how most Americans only wake up after it happens to them.

As EC said, the only we understand is dead Merkins.

Case in point? How 'bout that proud-n-patriotic lady in Farenheit
911? As
far as I could tell, prior to her son's death she was all in favor of
the
Attack on Iraq and even encouraged her son to serve (I hate that
fucking

Karma rules, mofo.

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

2004-12-21 Thread Tyler Durden

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?


On Mon, 20 Dec 2004, Tyler Durden wrote:

 Well, there's a TINY little hole in your logic here...

 Scale of distance is the only difference.  Either you support the system
 or you don't.  I don't: I either drive to jobs (charging for mileage) or I
 pass on them, rather than take part in the police state that is todays air
 system.  You have the very same choices.  The argument eveyone is making
 here is that it is too much of an inconvenience (financial or otherwise),
 *not* to fly.  Sorry, but that's just pure self-serving BS.

 For one, Flying can easily be a requirement, not an option.

You keep asserting this, but at the same time fail to provide an example.
Please show how flying can easily be a requirement, not an option.  One
legitimate example will suffice.


 But that's besides the point here.

No - that's the entire point here.


 The real point is that some Super-JAT could (5 years from now when there are
 ubiquitous highway checkpoints) argue that walking from NYC to Boston may
 be difficult but it IS possible. Or of course (after Tenent's vision for
 the internet is realized) You could simply Fedex those files, you don't
 need to use the internet

So, your position is that we should not take action now, because we may
have to take the same action later?

If people would assert their economic powers today through refusal to fund
the airlines, the same threat would prevent your example from being
possible in the future.  The only reason your walking scenario is even a
little plausible is because TheMan/G'mint/etc., knows that there will be
no pushback on *any* front.

Also, not that while airlines are heavily regulated, they are not
(theoretically at least) publicly funded, and as such, your right to use
them is limited - whereas roads are public property, and will be a lot
harder to place prohibitions upon.  A real boycott of airlines would take
only days to bring both the airlines and the TSA to it's knees - the
economic impact would be both national in scope and immediate in effect:
you can make no legitimate argument for not addressing the TSA problem
head on.

-- 
Yours,

J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
0xBD4A95BF

 Civilization is in a tailspin - everything is backwards, everything is
upside down- doctors destroy health, psychiatrists destroy minds, lawyers
destroy justice, the major media destroy information, governments destroy
freedom and religions destroy spirituality - yet it is claimed to be
healthy, just, informed, free and spiritual. We live in a social system
whose community, wealth, love and life is derived from alienation,
poverty, self-hate and medical murder - yet we tell ourselves that it is
biologically and ecologically sustainable.

The Bush plan to screen whole US population for mental illness clearly
indicates that mental illness starts at the top.

Rev Dr Michael Ellner

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

2004-12-21 Thread Shawn K. Quinn

On Mon, 2004-12-20 at 11:56 -0500, Tyler Durden wrote:
 Well, there's a TINY little hole in your logic here...

  [J.A. Terranson wrote:]
 Scale of distance is the only difference.  Either you support the system
 or you don't.  I don't: I either drive to jobs (charging for mileage) or I
 pass on them, rather than take part in the police state that is todays air
 system.  You have the very same choices.  The argument eveyone is making
 here is that it is too much of an inconvenience (financial or otherwise),
 *not* to fly.  Sorry, but that's just pure self-serving BS.
 
 For one, Flying can easily be a requirement, not an option. But that's 
 besides the point here.
 
 The real point is that some Super-JAT could (5 years from now when there are 
 ubiquitous highway checkpoints) argue that walking from NYC to Boston may 
 be difficult but it IS possible. Or of course (after Tenent's vision for 
 the internet is realized) You could simply Fedex those files, you don't 
 need to use the internet

Agreed, if you want or need to get between cities faster than land-based
travel will allow, flying is in fact a requirement. That was, in fact,
my point. (Would anyone actually resort to walking between NYC and
Boston?)

As an aside, I often jokingly used the phrase the only broadband
connections we would have would be UPS and FedEx back in the days when
DSL and cable modem connections were not as ubitiquous (yes I know
satellite is also an option but it's $DEITY-awful slow and only usable
for the most basic of needs). However, regulation of the Internet such
that couriers would be the only feasible way to move large amounts of
data around (burned to CD or DVD as the case may be) is not a joking
matter in the least.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

2004-12-21 Thread Tyler Durden

Well, there's a TINY little hole in your logic here...
Scale of distance is the only difference.  Either you support the system
or you don't.  I don't: I either drive to jobs (charging for mileage) or I
pass on them, rather than take part in the police state that is todays air
system.  You have the very same choices.  The argument eveyone is making
here is that it is too much of an inconvenience (financial or otherwise),
*not* to fly.  Sorry, but that's just pure self-serving BS.
For one, Flying can easily be a requirement, not an option. But that's 
besides the point here.

The real point is that some Super-JAT could (5 years from now when there are 
ubiquitous highway checkpoints) argue that walking from NYC to Boston may 
be difficult but it IS possible. Or of course (after Tenent's vision for 
the internet is realized) You could simply Fedex those files, you don't 
need to use the internet

..and so on...it get silly after this though.
-TD

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?


On Tue, 21 Dec 2004, Tyler Durden wrote:

 put it this way it starts to make some sense. In other words, avoiding
 travel whenever possible will (when added to sheeple starting to do the same
 because of all the terible screening stories) eventually start putting some
 squeeze on the airlines.

I expect that eventually in this context would == (hours to [one or two]
days)


 (But then again, DC has plenty of our tax dollars ready to bail out an
 incompetent set of airline managers.) It won't hurt at least.

Even DC can't bail out *all* the airlines.  That kind of boycott *would*
hurt, and hurt badly.  And *fast*.


 As for the former, I am suprised you even need examples...asking for them
 weakens your main point.
 There are plenty of examples to be had, and I'll give you an easy one.
 You're a hot looking, leggy and not super-bright saleschick that ALWAYS
 makes the sale in person (read: Big Bonuses), and much less frequently over
 the phone (read: failed sales quotas and eventual layoff). Your territory is
 Northwest meaning Oregon, NO Cal, Washington, Vancouver, and lots of those
 weird states over there like Idaho and whatnot. You can't possibly drive
 fast enough to make all your meetings in your territory. Will you...

 1) Phone it in
 2) Do some kind of lameass video conferencing
 3) Fly
 4) Get a job at McDonalds

First of all, this is a *great* example of why flying is an *option*, and
not a requirement.  That said, option number 4 is the obvious choice -
however, our leggy bimbo's mileage may vary.

The people of this country have long lost their voice for anything but
whining about how bad things are.  Since collectively, our economic voice
is our loudest voice, it is the one that should be used for the effecting
of immediate and comprehensive change.  The various non-arguments against
this all amount to the same thing: we want change, but we don't want to
have to do anything that might also have any kind of unpleasantness
associated with it.  Fuck that shit.  Either you believe that this shit
is wrong, and you are willing to put your money where your mouth is, or
you can STFU when the nice TSA lady jams her fist up your ass looking for
a reason to show you who's really in charge here.

-- 
Yours,

J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
0xBD4A95BF

 Civilization is in a tailspin - everything is backwards, everything is
upside down- doctors destroy health, psychiatrists destroy minds, lawyers
destroy justice, the major media destroy information, governments destroy
freedom and religions destroy spirituality - yet it is claimed to be
healthy, just, informed, free and spiritual. We live in a social system
whose community, wealth, love and life is derived from alienation,
poverty, self-hate and medical murder - yet we tell ourselves that it is
biologically and ecologically sustainable.

The Bush plan to screen whole US population for mental illness clearly
indicates that mental illness starts at the top.

Rev Dr Michael Ellner

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

2004-12-21 Thread Eugen Leitl

On Tue, Dec 21, 2004 at 11:57:08AM -0600, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:

 If you *need* to get to Hawaii, Puerto Rico, etc., driving, riding
 Greyhound, or riding Amtrak are NOT OPTIONS.

Emigration is always an option, though. Quite a few have done that already.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a
__
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net


pgpoiBVBIQ9G9.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

2004-12-21 Thread Shawn K. Quinn

[Note, I'm on the list, and I don't need two copies of every message in
this thread]

On Tue, 2004-12-21 at 06:34 -0600, J.A. Terranson wrote:
 On Mon, 20 Dec 2004, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:
 
  Agreed, if you want
  
 
 And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what it boils down to.  You *want*
 things your own way, but you are too fucking spoiled to fight fo it - so
 instead you whine and moan.

Did you even read the rest of the post?

Let me requote what I actually wrote, in its entirety.

 Agreed, if you want or need to get between cities faster than land-based
 travel will allow, flying is in fact a requirement. That was, in fact, my 
 point. 

If you *need* to be somewhere 1000 miles or more away within a few
hours, driving, riding Greyhound, or riding Amtrak are NOT OPTIONS.

If you *need* to get to Hawaii, Puerto Rico, etc., driving, riding
Greyhound, or riding Amtrak are NOT OPTIONS.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

2004-12-21 Thread Justin

On 2004-12-21T10:38:10-0600, J.A. Terranson wrote:
 On Tue, 21 Dec 2004, Tyler Durden wrote:
 
  put it this way it starts to make some sense. In other words, avoiding
  travel whenever possible will (when added to sheeple starting to do the same
  because of all the terible screening stories) eventually start putting some
  squeeze on the airlines.
 
 I expect that eventually in this context would == (hours to [one or two]
 days)

Academic.  Everyone will not boycott, so the time frame will increase.

  (But then again, DC has plenty of our tax dollars ready to bail out an
  incompetent set of airline managers.) It won't hurt at least.
 
 Even DC can't bail out *all* the airlines.  That kind of boycott *would*
 hurt, and hurt badly.  And *fast*.

Never play chicken with the federal government.  They can bail out all
the airlines (minus one: they don't need to bail out Southwest
Airlines).  They'd just need to raise taxes or increase the debt,
neither of which is a major impediment.

  1) Phone it in
  2) Do some kind of lameass video conferencing
  3) Fly
  4) Get a job at McDonalds
 
 First of all, this is a *great* example of why flying is an *option*, and
 not a requirement.  That said, option number 4 is the obvious choice -
 however, our leggy bimbo's mileage may vary.

This is a bit misleading.  The leggy bimbo can choose option 4 if she's
not smart enough to do something else... like _local_ sales, or even
starting up a psychic reading shop and making lots of money from other
bimbos.

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

2004-12-20 Thread Tyler Durden

Well, there's a TINY little hole in your logic here...
Scale of distance is the only difference.  Either you support the system
or you don't.  I don't: I either drive to jobs (charging for mileage) or I
pass on them, rather than take part in the police state that is todays air
system.  You have the very same choices.  The argument eveyone is making
here is that it is too much of an inconvenience (financial or otherwise),
*not* to fly.  Sorry, but that's just pure self-serving BS.
For one, Flying can easily be a requirement, not an option. But that's 
besides the point here.

The real point is that some Super-JAT could (5 years from now when there are 
ubiquitous highway checkpoints) argue that walking from NYC to Boston may 
be difficult but it IS possible. Or of course (after Tenent's vision for 
the internet is realized) You could simply Fedex those files, you don't 
need to use the internet

...and so on...it get silly after this though.
-TD

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

2004-12-20 Thread John Kelsey

From: Tyler Durden [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Dec 19, 2004 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts 
Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put 
You There?

...
Funny how most Americans only wake up after it happens to them.

Why would this be a surprise?  This is surely the way it is with most people, 
hence the famous old quote about ...and when they came for me, there was no 
one left to complain.  

I wonder how long it will take 'till TSA adops some kind of internal policing 
policies with some teeth, to deal with the claims about women being felt up, 
people being turned away from planes for reading the wrong book, or whatever.  
Probably sometime after a successful lawsuit costs them a few million dollars, 
alas.  

...
-TD

--John

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

2004-12-20 Thread Shawn K. Quinn

On Mon, 2004-12-20 at 11:56 -0500, Tyler Durden wrote:
 Well, there's a TINY little hole in your logic here...

  [J.A. Terranson wrote:]
 Scale of distance is the only difference.  Either you support the system
 or you don't.  I don't: I either drive to jobs (charging for mileage) or I
 pass on them, rather than take part in the police state that is todays air
 system.  You have the very same choices.  The argument eveyone is making
 here is that it is too much of an inconvenience (financial or otherwise),
 *not* to fly.  Sorry, but that's just pure self-serving BS.
 
 For one, Flying can easily be a requirement, not an option. But that's 
 besides the point here.
 
 The real point is that some Super-JAT could (5 years from now when there are 
 ubiquitous highway checkpoints) argue that walking from NYC to Boston may 
 be difficult but it IS possible. Or of course (after Tenent's vision for 
 the internet is realized) You could simply Fedex those files, you don't 
 need to use the internet

Agreed, if you want or need to get between cities faster than land-based
travel will allow, flying is in fact a requirement. That was, in fact,
my point. (Would anyone actually resort to walking between NYC and
Boston?)

As an aside, I often jokingly used the phrase the only broadband
connections we would have would be UPS and FedEx back in the days when
DSL and cable modem connections were not as ubitiquous (yes I know
satellite is also an option but it's $DEITY-awful slow and only usable
for the most basic of needs). However, regulation of the Internet such
that couriers would be the only feasible way to move large amounts of
data around (burned to CD or DVD as the case may be) is not a joking
matter in the least.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

2004-12-19 Thread R.A. Hettinga

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/monahan1.html

 LewRockwell.com

Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing
You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

by  Nicholas Monahan

?  ??  ??  ??  

This morning I'll be escorting my wife to the hospital, where the doctors
will perform a caesarean section to remove our first child. She didn't want
to do it this way - neither of us did - but sometimes the Fates decide
otherwise. The Fates or, in our case, government employees.

 On the morning of October 26th Mary and I entered Portland International
Airport, en route to the Las Vegas wedding of one of my best friends.
Although we live in Los Angeles, we'd been in Oregon working on a film, and
up to that point had had nothing but praise to shower on the city of
Portland, a refreshing change of pace from our own suffocating metropolis.

 At the security checkpoint I was led aside for the inspection that's all
the rage at airports these days. My shoes were removed. I was told to take
off my sweater, then to fold over the waistband of my pants. My baseball
hat, hastily jammed on my head at 5 AM, was removed and assiduously
examined (Anything could be in here, sir, I was told, after I asked what
I could hide in a baseball hat. Yeah. Anything.) Soon I was standing on one
foot, my arms stretched out, the other leg sticking out in front of me àla
a DUI test. I began to get pissed off, as most normal people would. My
anger increased when I realized that the newly knighted federal employees
weren't just examining me, but my 712 months pregnant wife as well. I'd
originally thought that I'd simply been randomly selected for the more
excessive than normal search. You know, Number 50 or whatever. Apparently
not though - it was both of us. These are your new threats, America:
pregnant accountants and their sleepy husbands flying to weddings.

After some more grumbling on my part they eventually finished with me and I
went to retrieve our luggage from the x-ray machine. Upon returning I found
my wife sitting in a chair, crying. Mary rarely cries, and certainly not in
public. When I asked her what was the matter, she tried to quell her tears
and sobbed, I'm sorry...it's...they touched my breasts...and... That's
all I heard. I marched up to the woman who'd been examining her and
shouted, What did you do to her? Later I found out that in addition to
touching her swollen breasts - to protect the American citizenry - the
employee had asked that she lift up her shirt. Not behind a screen, not off
to the side - no, right there, directly in front of the hundred or so
passengers standing in line. And for you women who've been pregnant and
worn maternity pants, you know how ridiculous those things look. I felt
like a clown, my wife told me later. On display for all these people,
with the cotton panel on my pants and my stomach sticking out. When I sat
down I just lost my composure and began to cry. That's when you walked up.

Of course when I say she told me later, it's because she wasn't able to
tell me at the time, because as soon as I demanded to know what the federal
employee had done to make her cry, I was swarmed by Portland police
officers. Instantly. Three of them, cinching my arms, locking me in
handcuffs, and telling me I was under arrest. Now my wife really began to
cry. As they led me away and she ran alongside, I implored her to calm
down, to think of the baby, promising her that everything would turn out
all right. She faded into the distance and I was shoved into an elevator, a
cop holding each arm. After making me face the corner, the head honcho told
that I was under arrest and that I wouldn't be flying that day - that I was
in fact a menace.

It took me a while to regain my composure. I felt like I was one of those
guys in The Gulag Archipelago who, because the proceedings all seem so
unreal, doesn't fully realize that he is in fact being arrested in a public
place in front of crowds of people for...for what? I didn't know what the
crime was. Didn't matter. Once upstairs, the officers made me remove my
shoes and my hat and tossed me into a cell. Yes, your airports have prison
cells, just like your amusement parks, train stations, universities, and
national forests. Let freedom reign.

 After a short time I received a visit from the arresting officer. Mr.
Monahan, he started, Are you on drugs?

Was this even real? No, I'm not on drugs.

Should you be?

What do you mean?

Should you be on any type of medication?

No.

Then why'd you react that way back there?

You see the thinking? You see what passes for reasoning among your domestic
shock troops these days? Only whackos get angry over seeing the woman
they've been with for ten years in tears because someone has touched her
breasts. That kind of reaction - love, protection - it's mind-boggling!
Mr. Monahan, are you on drugs? His snide words rang inside my head. This
is my wife, finally pregnant with our

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?



Several points come to mind:

(1) Mr. Monahan seems to think that lies on police reports are an artifact
of 9/11.  Welcome to the real world Mr. Monahan.

(2) Monahan, and those like him who continue to fly, have nobody to blame
but themselves: if you continue to feed these assholes by buying those
tickets, then you have it coming: simple economics.  If people refuse to
fly, this will stop.

(3) As to the ACLU, again, welcome to the real world.  Many of us have
been down that road before you Mr. Monahan - while the ACLU is not a bad
thing per se, they are a lot like the cops and courts: they are not there
for any one individual, there are there for the big picture.  And the
Big Picture requires money, which means you must be a minority (since how
can anyone of the majority ever be oppressed?).  In a nutshell, Fuck The
ACLU.

(4) Lastly, as to your cesarian, fuck you and your wife, and her
cesearean.  We don't give a shit about your personal problems, just like
you don't care about ours.  Sure, it makes for a pulpy little story, but
when you get right down to it, do we really care?  No.  Because, again,
you helped to create this beast you are now bitching about, and after it
bit you, you *continued to fly*, and thereby feed it some more.

--
Yours,

J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
0xBD4A95BF

 Civilization is in a tailspin - everything is backwards, everything is
upside down- doctors destroy health, psychiatrists destroy minds, lawyers
destroy justice, the major media destroy information, governments destroy
freedom and religions destroy spirituality - yet it is claimed to be
healthy, just, informed, free and spiritual. We live in a social system
whose community, wealth, love and life is derived from alienation,
poverty, self-hate and medical murder - yet we tell ourselves that it is
biologically and ecologically sustainable.

The Bush plan to screen whole US population for mental illness clearly
indicates that mental illness starts at the top.

Rev Dr Michael Ellner






On Sun, 19 Dec 2004, R.A. Hettinga wrote:

 Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 10:25:32 -0500
 From: R.A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Coffee, Tea,
  or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a
 Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?


 http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/monahan1.html

  LewRockwell.com

 Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing
 You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

 by  Nicholas Monahan

 ?  ??  ??  ??

 This morning I'll be escorting my wife to the hospital, where the doctors
 will perform a caesarean section to remove our first child. She didn't want
 to do it this way - neither of us did - but sometimes the Fates decide
 otherwise. The Fates or, in our case, government employees.

  On the morning of October 26th Mary and I entered Portland International
 Airport, en route to the Las Vegas wedding of one of my best friends.
 Although we live in Los Angeles, we'd been in Oregon working on a film, and
 up to that point had had nothing but praise to shower on the city of
 Portland, a refreshing change of pace from our own suffocating metropolis.

  At the security checkpoint I was led aside for the inspection that's all
 the rage at airports these days. My shoes were removed. I was told to take
 off my sweater, then to fold over the waistband of my pants. My baseball
 hat, hastily jammed on my head at 5 AM, was removed and assiduously
 examined (Anything could be in here, sir, I was told, after I asked what
 I could hide in a baseball hat. Yeah. Anything.) Soon I was standing on one
 foot, my arms stretched out, the other leg sticking out in front of me àla
 a DUI test. I began to get pissed off, as most normal people would. My
 anger increased when I realized that the newly knighted federal employees
 weren't just examining me, but my 712 months pregnant wife as well. I'd
 originally thought that I'd simply been randomly selected for the more
 excessive than normal search. You know, Number 50 or whatever. Apparently
 not though - it was both of us. These are your new threats, America:
 pregnant accountants and their sleepy husbands flying to weddings.

 After some more grumbling on my part they eventually finished with me and I
 went to retrieve our luggage from the x-ray machine. Upon returning I found
 my wife sitting in a chair, crying. Mary rarely cries, and certainly not in
 public. When I asked her what was the matter, she tried to quell her tears
 and sobbed, I'm sorry...it's...they touched my breasts...and... That's
 all I heard. I marched up to the woman who'd been examining her and
 shouted, What did you do to her? Later I found out that in addition to
 touching her swollen breasts - to protect the American citizenry - the
 employee had asked that she lift up her shirt. Not behind a screen, not off
 to the side - no, right there, directly in front

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

2004-12-19 Thread John Young

Excellent rejoinder to Mr. Monahan. The same could be
said of the Internet, hell, make a leap, same applies to 
the government. Stop using the Net and digital security 
and privacy problems will vanish. Stop paying taxes and 
the gov will disappear. Nothing about 9/11 changed that.

Well, the Net got more invasive and the gov more
intrusive. Still, just give them both up, retreat to the
hilltop or Okefenokee or no census nabe, eat spiders 
and snakes and varmints or even better get eaten by 
them, your cold dead middle finger marking the scene 
of dawinism off the grid.

Meanwhile a small fat-bellied band in the heartland of
birght-lit luxury will crow at the rigged suicide of another 
useless eater, the group log on to Rummie's inbox to type, 
thanks old man, those invites to defiance work wonders 
to red dot the hot blood bitchers.

Burp, hiccup, lick lobe, suck snot, poot, pat glock, order
more fodder, clap for market uptick, bray for another
Walter Reed amputee refit Dell-modeled efficient.

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

On Sun, 2004-12-19 at 10:53 -0600, J.A. Terranson wrote:
 (1) Mr. Monahan seems to think that lies on police reports are an
 artifact of 9/11.  Welcome to the real world Mr. Monahan.

I can concur with this, though it wouldn't surprise me if lying on
police reports has increased since then.

 (2) Monahan, and those like him who continue to fly, have nobody to
 blame but themselves: if you continue to feed these assholes by buying
 those tickets, then you have it coming: simple economics.  If people
 refuse to fly, this will stop.

He may not have a choice. There are three choices for intracity travel
in the US: air, automobile (I'm lumping intracity buses in with personal
cars here for a reason that will be obvious later), and train. 

First, let's look at automobile travel, which includes buses. There is
one major intracity bus company left and that's Greyhound. They tend to
be cheap, and thus attract people who can't afford to fly. The only
advantage over driving your own car, is you don't have to worry about
doing the driving yourself (Go Greyhound and leave the driving to us
if you remember the old commercials). Generally, automobile travel is
nearly unworkable if you're going farther than, say, a 10-hour drive or
about 500 miles.

As for Amtrak (the last passenger rail line left), well, that may be
just as bad in most cases. I have heard that the government subsidies of
Amtrak are being dropped to lower and lower levels, and as such they are
not making enough money to operate at acceptable standards to most of
us. Read misc.transport.rail sometime and you will see what I mean.
Also, you don't get there that much faster than with automobile travel,
and I think it may actually cost more.

 (3) As to the ACLU, again, welcome to the real world.  Many of us have
 been down that road before you Mr. Monahan - while the ACLU is not a
 bad thing per se, they are a lot like the cops and courts: they are
 not there for any one individual, there are there for the big
 picture.  And the Big Picture requires money, which means you must be
 a minority (since how can anyone of the majority ever be
 oppressed?).  In a nutshell, Fuck The ACLU.

I wouldn't speak so ill of the ACLU. Groups like the ACLU are just about
the last thing standing between what's left of our democracy and an
outright dictatorship.

White people aren't even necessarily the majority anymore.

 (4) Lastly, as to your cesarian, fuck you and your wife, and her
 cesearean.  We don't give a shit about your personal problems, just
 like you don't care about ours.  Sure, it makes for a pulpy little
 story, but when you get right down to it, do we really care?  No.
 Because, again, you helped to create this beast you are now bitching
 about, and after it bit you, you *continued to fly*, and thereby feed
 it some more.

This is downright insensitive. (Mr. Monahan, if you actually get to read
this, Terranson does *not* represent the views of all of us in the
least.) I really have a good mind to archive this and send it back to
you when your wife gets pregnant and something similar happens to you.

And again, he likely didn't continue to fly because he wanted to. See #2
above.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

On Sun, 2004-12-19 at 12:01 -0600, J.A. Terranson wrote:
 On Sun, 19 Dec 2004, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:
 
  He may not have a choice.
 
 Bullshit.  100% bullshit.  Unless you are trying to cover a lot of
 lake, flying is an option, not a requirement.  Driving sucks - I do it
 a lot, and hate every mile of it - but it *is* an option.

If you need to get from, say, Houston to Seattle, in less than a full
day, how is driving an option?

 Remember the buses.  Remember what happened when them negroes got
 uppity and stopped taking the bus?

Those were local transit buses, not intercity buses. Huge difference.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?


On Sun, 19 Dec 2004, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:

 If you need to get from, say, Houston to Seattle, in less than a full
 day, how is driving an option?

Farm the work out.  Or pass on the job.  Or take a plane.  Or drive - the
are *all* options.  None of them are *requirements*.


  Remember the buses.  Remember what happened when them negroes got
  uppity and stopped taking the bus?

 Those were local transit buses, not intercity buses. Huge difference.

Scale of distance is the only difference.  Either you support the system
or you don't.  I don't: I either drive to jobs (charging for mileage) or I
pass on them, rather than take part in the police state that is todays air
system.  You have the very same choices.  The argument eveyone is making
here is that it is too much of an inconvenience (financial or otherwise),
*not* to fly.  Sorry, but that's just pure self-serving BS.

You either work against the problem, or you live with the problem you have
(a) helped to create and (b) actively work to maintain (with your ticket
dollars).  If you choose to maintain the system, then you have no business
bitching when it turns it's jaundiced eyes towards you.

-- 
Yours,

J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
0xBD4A95BF

 Civilization is in a tailspin - everything is backwards, everything is
upside down- doctors destroy health, psychiatrists destroy minds, lawyers
destroy justice, the major media destroy information, governments destroy
freedom and religions destroy spirituality - yet it is claimed to be
healthy, just, informed, free and spiritual. We live in a social system
whose community, wealth, love and life is derived from alienation,
poverty, self-hate and medical murder - yet we tell ourselves that it is
biologically and ecologically sustainable.

The Bush plan to screen whole US population for mental illness clearly
indicates that mental illness starts at the top.

Rev Dr Michael Ellner

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

2004-12-19 Thread Tyler Durden

(4) Lastly, as to your cesarian, fuck you and your wife, and her
cesearean.  We don't give a shit about your personal problems, just like
you don't care about ours.  Sure, it makes for a pulpy little story, but
when you get right down to it, do we really care?  No.  Because, again,
you helped to create this beast you are now bitching about, and after it
bit you, you *continued to fly*, and thereby feed it some more.
Funny how most Americans only wake up after it happens to them.
Case in point? How 'bout that proud-n-patriotic lady in Farenheit 911? As 
far as I could tell, prior to her son's death she was all in favor of the 
Attack on Iraq and even encouraged her son to serve (I hate that fucking 
word)...the only thing that changed her mind was that HER son was killed 
(the piles of dead Iraqis in their own country didn't matter and hell nor 
did the other dead US soldiers).

So when she was hanging around in front of the White House I didn't have a 
hell of a lot of sympathy.

-TD

From: J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: R.A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts   
Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why  We  
Put You There?
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 10:53:26 -0600 (CST)

Several points come to mind:
(1) Mr. Monahan seems to think that lies on police reports are an artifact
of 9/11.  Welcome to the real world Mr. Monahan.
(2) Monahan, and those like him who continue to fly, have nobody to blame
but themselves: if you continue to feed these assholes by buying those
tickets, then you have it coming: simple economics.  If people refuse to
fly, this will stop.
(3) As to the ACLU, again, welcome to the real world.  Many of us have
been down that road before you Mr. Monahan - while the ACLU is not a bad
thing per se, they are a lot like the cops and courts: they are not there
for any one individual, there are there for the big picture.  And the
Big Picture requires money, which means you must be a minority (since how
can anyone of the majority ever be oppressed?).  In a nutshell, Fuck The
ACLU.
(4) Lastly, as to your cesarian, fuck you and your wife, and her
cesearean.  We don't give a shit about your personal problems, just like
you don't care about ours.  Sure, it makes for a pulpy little story, but
when you get right down to it, do we really care?  No.  Because, again,
you helped to create this beast you are now bitching about, and after it
bit you, you *continued to fly*, and thereby feed it some more.
--
Yours,
J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
0xBD4A95BF
 Civilization is in a tailspin - everything is backwards, everything is
upside down- doctors destroy health, psychiatrists destroy minds, lawyers
destroy justice, the major media destroy information, governments destroy
freedom and religions destroy spirituality - yet it is claimed to be
healthy, just, informed, free and spiritual. We live in a social system
whose community, wealth, love and life is derived from alienation,
poverty, self-hate and medical murder - yet we tell ourselves that it is
biologically and ecologically sustainable.
The Bush plan to screen whole US population for mental illness clearly
indicates that mental illness starts at the top.
Rev Dr Michael Ellner


On Sun, 19 Dec 2004, R.A. Hettinga wrote:
 Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 10:25:32 -0500
 From: R.A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Coffee, Tea,
  or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You 
in a
 Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?


 http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/monahan1.html

  LewRockwell.com

 Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before 
Throwing
 You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

 by  Nicholas Monahan

 ?  ??  ??  ??

 This morning I'll be escorting my wife to the hospital, where the 
doctors
 will perform a caesarean section to remove our first child. She didn't 
want
 to do it this way - neither of us did - but sometimes the Fates decide
 otherwise. The Fates or, in our case, government employees.

  On the morning of October 26th Mary and I entered Portland 
International
 Airport, en route to the Las Vegas wedding of one of my best friends.
 Although we live in Los Angeles, we'd been in Oregon working on a film, 
and
 up to that point had had nothing but praise to shower on the city of
 Portland, a refreshing change of pace from our own suffocating 
metropolis.

  At the security checkpoint I was led aside for the inspection that's 
all
 the rage at airports these days. My shoes were removed. I was told to 
take
 off my sweater, then to fold over the waistband of my pants. My baseball
 hat, hastily jammed on my head at 5 AM, was removed and assiduously
 examined (Anything could be in here, sir, I was told, after I asked 
what
 I could hide in a baseball hat. Yeah. Anything.) Soon I was standing on 
one
 foot

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

On Sun, 2004-12-19 at 10:53 -0600, J.A. Terranson wrote:
 (1) Mr. Monahan seems to think that lies on police reports are an
 artifact of 9/11.  Welcome to the real world Mr. Monahan.

I can concur with this, though it wouldn't surprise me if lying on
police reports has increased since then.

 (2) Monahan, and those like him who continue to fly, have nobody to
 blame but themselves: if you continue to feed these assholes by buying
 those tickets, then you have it coming: simple economics.  If people
 refuse to fly, this will stop.

He may not have a choice. There are three choices for intracity travel
in the US: air, automobile (I'm lumping intracity buses in with personal
cars here for a reason that will be obvious later), and train. 

First, let's look at automobile travel, which includes buses. There is
one major intracity bus company left and that's Greyhound. They tend to
be cheap, and thus attract people who can't afford to fly. The only
advantage over driving your own car, is you don't have to worry about
doing the driving yourself (Go Greyhound and leave the driving to us
if you remember the old commercials). Generally, automobile travel is
nearly unworkable if you're going farther than, say, a 10-hour drive or
about 500 miles.

As for Amtrak (the last passenger rail line left), well, that may be
just as bad in most cases. I have heard that the government subsidies of
Amtrak are being dropped to lower and lower levels, and as such they are
not making enough money to operate at acceptable standards to most of
us. Read misc.transport.rail sometime and you will see what I mean.
Also, you don't get there that much faster than with automobile travel,
and I think it may actually cost more.

 (3) As to the ACLU, again, welcome to the real world.  Many of us have
 been down that road before you Mr. Monahan - while the ACLU is not a
 bad thing per se, they are a lot like the cops and courts: they are
 not there for any one individual, there are there for the big
 picture.  And the Big Picture requires money, which means you must be
 a minority (since how can anyone of the majority ever be
 oppressed?).  In a nutshell, Fuck The ACLU.

I wouldn't speak so ill of the ACLU. Groups like the ACLU are just about
the last thing standing between what's left of our democracy and an
outright dictatorship.

White people aren't even necessarily the majority anymore.

 (4) Lastly, as to your cesarian, fuck you and your wife, and her
 cesearean.  We don't give a shit about your personal problems, just
 like you don't care about ours.  Sure, it makes for a pulpy little
 story, but when you get right down to it, do we really care?  No.
 Because, again, you helped to create this beast you are now bitching
 about, and after it bit you, you *continued to fly*, and thereby feed
 it some more.

This is downright insensitive. (Mr. Monahan, if you actually get to read
this, Terranson does *not* represent the views of all of us in the
least.) I really have a good mind to archive this and send it back to
you when your wife gets pregnant and something similar happens to you.

And again, he likely didn't continue to fly because he wanted to. See #2
above.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?



Several points come to mind:

(1) Mr. Monahan seems to think that lies on police reports are an artifact
of 9/11.  Welcome to the real world Mr. Monahan.

(2) Monahan, and those like him who continue to fly, have nobody to blame
but themselves: if you continue to feed these assholes by buying those
tickets, then you have it coming: simple economics.  If people refuse to
fly, this will stop.

(3) As to the ACLU, again, welcome to the real world.  Many of us have
been down that road before you Mr. Monahan - while the ACLU is not a bad
thing per se, they are a lot like the cops and courts: they are not there
for any one individual, there are there for the big picture.  And the
Big Picture requires money, which means you must be a minority (since how
can anyone of the majority ever be oppressed?).  In a nutshell, Fuck The
ACLU.

(4) Lastly, as to your cesarian, fuck you and your wife, and her
cesearean.  We don't give a shit about your personal problems, just like
you don't care about ours.  Sure, it makes for a pulpy little story, but
when you get right down to it, do we really care?  No.  Because, again,
you helped to create this beast you are now bitching about, and after it
bit you, you *continued to fly*, and thereby feed it some more.

--
Yours,

J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
0xBD4A95BF

 Civilization is in a tailspin - everything is backwards, everything is
upside down- doctors destroy health, psychiatrists destroy minds, lawyers
destroy justice, the major media destroy information, governments destroy
freedom and religions destroy spirituality - yet it is claimed to be
healthy, just, informed, free and spiritual. We live in a social system
whose community, wealth, love and life is derived from alienation,
poverty, self-hate and medical murder - yet we tell ourselves that it is
biologically and ecologically sustainable.

The Bush plan to screen whole US population for mental illness clearly
indicates that mental illness starts at the top.

Rev Dr Michael Ellner






On Sun, 19 Dec 2004, R.A. Hettinga wrote:

 Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 10:25:32 -0500
 From: R.A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Coffee, Tea,
  or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a
 Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?


 http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/monahan1.html

  LewRockwell.com

 Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing
 You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

 by  Nicholas Monahan

 ?  ??  ??  ??

 This morning I'll be escorting my wife to the hospital, where the doctors
 will perform a caesarean section to remove our first child. She didn't want
 to do it this way - neither of us did - but sometimes the Fates decide
 otherwise. The Fates or, in our case, government employees.

  On the morning of October 26th Mary and I entered Portland International
 Airport, en route to the Las Vegas wedding of one of my best friends.
 Although we live in Los Angeles, we'd been in Oregon working on a film, and
 up to that point had had nothing but praise to shower on the city of
 Portland, a refreshing change of pace from our own suffocating metropolis.

  At the security checkpoint I was led aside for the inspection that's all
 the rage at airports these days. My shoes were removed. I was told to take
 off my sweater, then to fold over the waistband of my pants. My baseball
 hat, hastily jammed on my head at 5 AM, was removed and assiduously
 examined (Anything could be in here, sir, I was told, after I asked what
 I could hide in a baseball hat. Yeah. Anything.) Soon I was standing on one
 foot, my arms stretched out, the other leg sticking out in front of me àla
 a DUI test. I began to get pissed off, as most normal people would. My
 anger increased when I realized that the newly knighted federal employees
 weren't just examining me, but my 712 months pregnant wife as well. I'd
 originally thought that I'd simply been randomly selected for the more
 excessive than normal search. You know, Number 50 or whatever. Apparently
 not though - it was both of us. These are your new threats, America:
 pregnant accountants and their sleepy husbands flying to weddings.

 After some more grumbling on my part they eventually finished with me and I
 went to retrieve our luggage from the x-ray machine. Upon returning I found
 my wife sitting in a chair, crying. Mary rarely cries, and certainly not in
 public. When I asked her what was the matter, she tried to quell her tears
 and sobbed, I'm sorry...it's...they touched my breasts...and... That's
 all I heard. I marched up to the woman who'd been examining her and
 shouted, What did you do to her? Later I found out that in addition to
 touching her swollen breasts - to protect the American citizenry - the
 employee had asked that she lift up her shirt. Not behind a screen, not off
 to the side - no, right there, directly in front

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

On Sun, 2004-12-19 at 12:01 -0600, J.A. Terranson wrote:
 On Sun, 19 Dec 2004, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:
 
  He may not have a choice.
 
 Bullshit.  100% bullshit.  Unless you are trying to cover a lot of
 lake, flying is an option, not a requirement.  Driving sucks - I do it
 a lot, and hate every mile of it - but it *is* an option.

If you need to get from, say, Houston to Seattle, in less than a full
day, how is driving an option?

 Remember the buses.  Remember what happened when them negroes got
 uppity and stopped taking the bus?

Those were local transit buses, not intercity buses. Huge difference.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

2004-12-19 Thread R.A. Hettinga

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/monahan1.html

 LewRockwell.com

Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing
You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

by  Nicholas Monahan

?  ??  ??  ??  

This morning I'll be escorting my wife to the hospital, where the doctors
will perform a caesarean section to remove our first child. She didn't want
to do it this way - neither of us did - but sometimes the Fates decide
otherwise. The Fates or, in our case, government employees.

 On the morning of October 26th Mary and I entered Portland International
Airport, en route to the Las Vegas wedding of one of my best friends.
Although we live in Los Angeles, we'd been in Oregon working on a film, and
up to that point had had nothing but praise to shower on the city of
Portland, a refreshing change of pace from our own suffocating metropolis.

 At the security checkpoint I was led aside for the inspection that's all
the rage at airports these days. My shoes were removed. I was told to take
off my sweater, then to fold over the waistband of my pants. My baseball
hat, hastily jammed on my head at 5 AM, was removed and assiduously
examined (Anything could be in here, sir, I was told, after I asked what
I could hide in a baseball hat. Yeah. Anything.) Soon I was standing on one
foot, my arms stretched out, the other leg sticking out in front of me àla
a DUI test. I began to get pissed off, as most normal people would. My
anger increased when I realized that the newly knighted federal employees
weren't just examining me, but my 712 months pregnant wife as well. I'd
originally thought that I'd simply been randomly selected for the more
excessive than normal search. You know, Number 50 or whatever. Apparently
not though - it was both of us. These are your new threats, America:
pregnant accountants and their sleepy husbands flying to weddings.

After some more grumbling on my part they eventually finished with me and I
went to retrieve our luggage from the x-ray machine. Upon returning I found
my wife sitting in a chair, crying. Mary rarely cries, and certainly not in
public. When I asked her what was the matter, she tried to quell her tears
and sobbed, I'm sorry...it's...they touched my breasts...and... That's
all I heard. I marched up to the woman who'd been examining her and
shouted, What did you do to her? Later I found out that in addition to
touching her swollen breasts - to protect the American citizenry - the
employee had asked that she lift up her shirt. Not behind a screen, not off
to the side - no, right there, directly in front of the hundred or so
passengers standing in line. And for you women who've been pregnant and
worn maternity pants, you know how ridiculous those things look. I felt
like a clown, my wife told me later. On display for all these people,
with the cotton panel on my pants and my stomach sticking out. When I sat
down I just lost my composure and began to cry. That's when you walked up.

Of course when I say she told me later, it's because she wasn't able to
tell me at the time, because as soon as I demanded to know what the federal
employee had done to make her cry, I was swarmed by Portland police
officers. Instantly. Three of them, cinching my arms, locking me in
handcuffs, and telling me I was under arrest. Now my wife really began to
cry. As they led me away and she ran alongside, I implored her to calm
down, to think of the baby, promising her that everything would turn out
all right. She faded into the distance and I was shoved into an elevator, a
cop holding each arm. After making me face the corner, the head honcho told
that I was under arrest and that I wouldn't be flying that day - that I was
in fact a menace.

It took me a while to regain my composure. I felt like I was one of those
guys in The Gulag Archipelago who, because the proceedings all seem so
unreal, doesn't fully realize that he is in fact being arrested in a public
place in front of crowds of people for...for what? I didn't know what the
crime was. Didn't matter. Once upstairs, the officers made me remove my
shoes and my hat and tossed me into a cell. Yes, your airports have prison
cells, just like your amusement parks, train stations, universities, and
national forests. Let freedom reign.

 After a short time I received a visit from the arresting officer. Mr.
Monahan, he started, Are you on drugs?

Was this even real? No, I'm not on drugs.

Should you be?

What do you mean?

Should you be on any type of medication?

No.

Then why'd you react that way back there?

You see the thinking? You see what passes for reasoning among your domestic
shock troops these days? Only whackos get angry over seeing the woman
they've been with for ten years in tears because someone has touched her
breasts. That kind of reaction - love, protection - it's mind-boggling!
Mr. Monahan, are you on drugs? His snide words rang inside my head. This
is my wife, finally pregnant with our

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

2004-12-19 Thread Tyler Durden

(4) Lastly, as to your cesarian, fuck you and your wife, and her
cesearean.  We don't give a shit about your personal problems, just like
you don't care about ours.  Sure, it makes for a pulpy little story, but
when you get right down to it, do we really care?  No.  Because, again,
you helped to create this beast you are now bitching about, and after it
bit you, you *continued to fly*, and thereby feed it some more.
Funny how most Americans only wake up after it happens to them.
Case in point? How 'bout that proud-n-patriotic lady in Farenheit 911? As 
far as I could tell, prior to her son's death she was all in favor of the 
Attack on Iraq and even encouraged her son to serve (I hate that fucking 
word)...the only thing that changed her mind was that HER son was killed 
(the piles of dead Iraqis in their own country didn't matter and hell nor 
did the other dead US soldiers).

So when she was hanging around in front of the White House I didn't have a 
hell of a lot of sympathy.

-TD

From: J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: R.A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts   
Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why  We  
Put You There?
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 10:53:26 -0600 (CST)

Several points come to mind:
(1) Mr. Monahan seems to think that lies on police reports are an artifact
of 9/11.  Welcome to the real world Mr. Monahan.
(2) Monahan, and those like him who continue to fly, have nobody to blame
but themselves: if you continue to feed these assholes by buying those
tickets, then you have it coming: simple economics.  If people refuse to
fly, this will stop.
(3) As to the ACLU, again, welcome to the real world.  Many of us have
been down that road before you Mr. Monahan - while the ACLU is not a bad
thing per se, they are a lot like the cops and courts: they are not there
for any one individual, there are there for the big picture.  And the
Big Picture requires money, which means you must be a minority (since how
can anyone of the majority ever be oppressed?).  In a nutshell, Fuck The
ACLU.
(4) Lastly, as to your cesarian, fuck you and your wife, and her
cesearean.  We don't give a shit about your personal problems, just like
you don't care about ours.  Sure, it makes for a pulpy little story, but
when you get right down to it, do we really care?  No.  Because, again,
you helped to create this beast you are now bitching about, and after it
bit you, you *continued to fly*, and thereby feed it some more.
--
Yours,
J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
0xBD4A95BF
 Civilization is in a tailspin - everything is backwards, everything is
upside down- doctors destroy health, psychiatrists destroy minds, lawyers
destroy justice, the major media destroy information, governments destroy
freedom and religions destroy spirituality - yet it is claimed to be
healthy, just, informed, free and spiritual. We live in a social system
whose community, wealth, love and life is derived from alienation,
poverty, self-hate and medical murder - yet we tell ourselves that it is
biologically and ecologically sustainable.
The Bush plan to screen whole US population for mental illness clearly
indicates that mental illness starts at the top.
Rev Dr Michael Ellner


On Sun, 19 Dec 2004, R.A. Hettinga wrote:
 Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 10:25:32 -0500
 From: R.A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Coffee, Tea,
  or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You 
in a
 Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?


 http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/monahan1.html

  LewRockwell.com

 Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before 
Throwing
 You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?

 by  Nicholas Monahan

 ?  ??  ??  ??

 This morning I'll be escorting my wife to the hospital, where the 
doctors
 will perform a caesarean section to remove our first child. She didn't 
want
 to do it this way - neither of us did - but sometimes the Fates decide
 otherwise. The Fates or, in our case, government employees.

  On the morning of October 26th Mary and I entered Portland 
International
 Airport, en route to the Las Vegas wedding of one of my best friends.
 Although we live in Los Angeles, we'd been in Oregon working on a film, 
and
 up to that point had had nothing but praise to shower on the city of
 Portland, a refreshing change of pace from our own suffocating 
metropolis.

  At the security checkpoint I was led aside for the inspection that's 
all
 the rage at airports these days. My shoes were removed. I was told to 
take
 off my sweater, then to fold over the waistband of my pants. My baseball
 hat, hastily jammed on my head at 5 AM, was removed and assiduously
 examined (Anything could be in here, sir, I was told, after I asked 
what
 I could hide in a baseball hat. Yeah. Anything.) Soon I was standing on 
one
 foot

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?


On Sun, 19 Dec 2004, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:

 He may not have a choice.

Bullshit.  100% bullshit.  Unless you are trying to cover a lot of lake,
flying is an option, not a requirement.  Driving sucks - I do it a lot,
and hate every mile of it - but it *is* an option.

Remember the buses.  Remember what happened when them negroes got uppity
and stopped taking the bus?


  (4) Lastly, as to your cesarian, fuck you and your wife, and her
  cesearean.  We don't give a shit about your personal problems, just
  like you don't care about ours.  Sure, it makes for a pulpy little
  story, but when you get right down to it, do we really care?  No.
  Because, again, you helped to create this beast you are now bitching
  about, and after it bit you, you *continued to fly*, and thereby feed
  it some more.

 This is downright insensitive. (Mr. Monahan, if you actually get to read
 this, Terranson does *not* represent the views of all of us in the
 least.) I really have a good mind to archive this and send it back to
 you when your wife gets pregnant and something similar happens to you.

Archive any fucking thing you want, and send it to whomever you like,
whenever you like.  Insensitive?  Maybe.  But it's true as well.  I have
zero tolerance for you and Monahan and those like you, who will feed this
bitch while continuing to complain.

Put up or shut up.  Fly or don't.  But if you're going to feed this
fucker, then you *will* eventually pay this kind of price - and you will
have DESERVED IT.  If for no other reason than you helped to heap it upon
other through your financial support.


 And again, he likely didn't continue to fly because he wanted to. See #2
 above.

And, again, Bullshit.

-- 
Yours,

J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
0xBD4A95BF

 Civilization is in a tailspin - everything is backwards, everything is
upside down- doctors destroy health, psychiatrists destroy minds, lawyers
destroy justice, the major media destroy information, governments destroy
freedom and religions destroy spirituality - yet it is claimed to be
healthy, just, informed, free and spiritual. We live in a social system
whose community, wealth, love and life is derived from alienation,
poverty, self-hate and medical murder - yet we tell ourselves that it is
biologically and ecologically sustainable.

The Bush plan to screen whole US population for mental illness clearly
indicates that mental illness starts at the top.

Rev Dr Michael Ellner

Re: Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife's Breasts Before Throwing You in a Cell at the Airport and Then Lying About Why We Put You There?


On Sun, 19 Dec 2004, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:

 If you need to get from, say, Houston to Seattle, in less than a full
 day, how is driving an option?

Farm the work out.  Or pass on the job.  Or take a plane.  Or drive - the
are *all* options.  None of them are *requirements*.


  Remember the buses.  Remember what happened when them negroes got
  uppity and stopped taking the bus?

 Those were local transit buses, not intercity buses. Huge difference.

Scale of distance is the only difference.  Either you support the system
or you don't.  I don't: I either drive to jobs (charging for mileage) or I
pass on them, rather than take part in the police state that is todays air
system.  You have the very same choices.  The argument eveyone is making
here is that it is too much of an inconvenience (financial or otherwise),
*not* to fly.  Sorry, but that's just pure self-serving BS.

You either work against the problem, or you live with the problem you have
(a) helped to create and (b) actively work to maintain (with your ticket
dollars).  If you choose to maintain the system, then you have no business
bitching when it turns it's jaundiced eyes towards you.

-- 
Yours,

J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
0xBD4A95BF

 Civilization is in a tailspin - everything is backwards, everything is
upside down- doctors destroy health, psychiatrists destroy minds, lawyers
destroy justice, the major media destroy information, governments destroy
freedom and religions destroy spirituality - yet it is claimed to be
healthy, just, informed, free and spiritual. We live in a social system
whose community, wealth, love and life is derived from alienation,
poverty, self-hate and medical murder - yet we tell ourselves that it is
biologically and ecologically sustainable.

The Bush plan to screen whole US population for mental illness clearly
indicates that mental illness starts at the top.

Rev Dr Michael Ellner

RE: [p2p-hackers] Why UDP and not TCP? (fwd from [EMAIL PROTECTED])

2004-11-27 Thread Eugen Leitl

- Forwarded message from Travis Kalanick [EMAIL PROTECTED] -

From: Travis Kalanick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 18:14:16 -0800
To: 'Peer-to-peer development.' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [p2p-hackers] Why UDP and not TCP?
X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Peer-to-peer development. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

David, 

The main reason P2P is moving toward reliable-flow-controlled-UDP is that
UDP allows for widely available straight forward techniques to route around
NATs in NAT-to-NAT file delivery scenarios.

I believe this was covered in the thread, but it may be such common
knowledge by now that we only refer to it implicitly.

Mangling TCP to implement similar traversal techniques is a substantially
more difficult task.  Though not impossible at all, it's a tricky bit of
hacking you'll need to do to make it work.

Travis

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Barrett
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 5:45 PM
To: P2P Hackers
Subject: [p2p-hackers] Why UDP and not TCP?

We've had a long-ranging discussion on how to overcome UDP's inherently
unreliable nature, but I'm confused: what overwhelming benefits do you see
to UDP that can't be found in TCP?

Elsewhere, I've heard the general arguments:

1) UDP is faster (ie, lower latency)
2) UDP is more efficient (ie, lower bandwidth)
3) UDP is easier (ie, no TCP shutdown issues)
4) UDP is more scalable (ie, no inbound connection limits)

However, it seems these arguments are only really true if in the
application: (from http://www.atlasindia.com/multicast.htm)

- Messages require no acknowledgement 
- Messages between hosts are sporadic or irregular 
- Reliability is implemented at the process level.

Reliable file transfer (the impetus for our discussion, I think) doesn't
seem to be a good match for the above criteria.  Indeed, it would seem to me
that in this situation:

1) Latency is less important than throughput
2) TCP/UDP are similarly efficient because the payload will likely dwarf any
packet overhead
3) A custom reliability layer in software is harder than a standardized,
worldwide, off-the-shelf reliability layer implemented in hardware
4) The user will run out of bandwidth faster than simultaneous TCP inbound
connections.

At least, that's what my view tells me.  What am I missing?  Is there
another angle to the UDP/TCP protocol selection that I'm not seeing?  I've
seen mention of congestion -- does UDP somehow help resolve this?
Alternatively, do you find yourself forced to use UDP against your will?

I really don't want to start a religious war, but I would like to know what
holes exist in my reasoning above.  Thanks! 

-david

___
p2p-hackers mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://zgp.org/mailman/listinfo/p2p-hackers
___
Here is a web page listing P2P Conferences:
http://www.neurogrid.net/twiki/bin/view/Main/PeerToPeerConferences

___
p2p-hackers mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://zgp.org/mailman/listinfo/p2p-hackers
___
Here is a web page listing P2P Conferences:
http://www.neurogrid.net/twiki/bin/view/Main/PeerToPeerConferences

- End forwarded message -
-- 
Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a
__
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net

pgp0wM1kGAWWQ.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Why Americans Hate Dissenters

2004-11-19 Thread Nomen Nescio

John Young:

 On CJ (Carl Johnson) and Jim Bell:

Hi John

Thanks for the info! Several times in the past I've seen concrete
relevant questions asked on the list without anyone taking their time
to answer them. The stories of these cypherpunks are indeed
interesting and relevant for the list.

I guess the story of Jim and CJ is the reason why one of the
cypherpunks nodes used to have this text on the page:

It is known this list is under surveillence by US and foreign law
enforcement and intelligence agencies, consider using anonymous
remailers and cryptography

Regards

Why we're a divided nation

2004-11-10 Thread R.A. Hettinga

This is one of the best arguments for minimal government I've heard. Like
most good arguments, it's blindingly simple.

Cheers,
RAH
---

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/printww20041110.shtml

Townhall.com

Why we're a divided nation
Walter E. Williams (back to web version) | Send

November 10, 2004

Recent elections pointed to deepening divisions among American people, but
has anyone given serious thought to just why? I have part of the answer,
which starts off with a simple example.
 
Different Americans have different and intensive preferences for cars,
food, clothing and entertainment. For example, some Americans love opera
and hate rock and roll. Others have opposite preferences, loving rock and
roll and hating opera. When's the last time you heard of rock-and-roll
lovers in conflict with opera lovers? It seldom, if ever, happens. Why?
Those who love operas get what they want, and those who love rock and roll
get what they want, and both can live in peace with one another.

  Suppose that instead of freedom in the music market, decisions on what
kind of music people could listen to were made in the political arena. It
would be either opera or rock and roll. Rock and rollers would be lined up
against opera lovers. Why? It's simple. If the opera lovers win, rock and
rollers would lose, and the reverse would happen if rock and rollers won.
Conflict would emerge solely because the decision was made in the political
arena.

  The prime feature of political decision-making is that it's a zero-sum
game. One person or group's gain is of necessity another person or group's
loss. As such, political allocation of resources is conflict enhancing
while market allocation is conflict reducing. The greater the number of
decisions made in the political arena, the greater is the potential for
conflict.

  There are other implications of political decision-making. Throughout
most of our history, we've lived in relative harmony. That's remarkable
because just about every religion, racial and ethnic group in the world is
represented in our country. These are the very racial/ethnic/religious
groups that have for centuries been trying to slaughter one another in
their home countries, among them: Turks and Armenians, Protestant and
Catholic, Muslim and Jew, Croats and Serbs. While we haven't been a perfect
nation, there have been no cases of the mass genocide and religious wars
that have plagued the globe elsewhere. The closest we've come was the
American Indian/European conflict, which pales by comparison.

  The reason we've been able to live in relative harmony is that for most
of our history government was small. There wasn't much pie to distribute
politically.

  When it's the political arena that determines who gets what goodies, the
most effective coalitions are those with a proven record of being the most
divisive -- those based on race, ethnicity, religion and region. As a
matter of fact, our most costly conflict involved a coalition based upon
region -- namely the War of 1861.

  Many of the issues that divide us, aside from the Iraq war, are those
best described as a zero-sum game, where one group's gain is of necessity
another's loss. Examples are: racial preferences, Social Security, tax
policy, trade restrictions, welfare and a host of other government policies
that benefit one American at the expense of another American. You might be
tempted to think that the brutal domestic conflict seen in other countries
at other times can't happen here. That's nonsense. Americans are not
super-humans; we possess the same frailties of other people in other
places. If there were a severe economic calamity, I can imagine a political
hustler exploiting those frailties here, just as Adolf Hitler did in
Germany, blaming it on the Jews, the blacks, the East Coast, Catholics or
free trade.

 The best thing the president and Congress can do to heal our country is to
reduce the impact of government on our lives. Doing so will not only
produce a less divided country and greater economic efficiency but bear
greater faith and allegiance to the vision of America held by our founders
-- a country of limited government.

-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Why Pay M0re? Cpunks

2004-11-10 Thread Henry Castro

User ID: 9 worcester
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 22:25:53 +0500
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Re: Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue

2004-11-07 Thread Eugen Leitl

On Sat, Nov 06, 2004 at 09:31:24AM -0800, James Donald wrote:

 I routinely call people like you nazi-commies.

How novel and interesting.

Cut the rhetoric, get on with the program. Cypherpunks write code.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a
__
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net


pgpRySwSekh7f.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue

2004-11-07 Thread James Donald

--
 John Young wrote:
 Commie is the term used here like is nazi used elsewhere as the most
 fearsome if thoughtless epithet. Nazi here is a term of endearment,
 and also admirable role model by some.

 Calling someone both is not allowed, check the FAQ under impurity.

I routinely call people like you nazi-commies.

As George Orwell observed, anyone who thinks there is a significant 
difference between nazis and commies is in favor of one or the other.

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 tcPPLhn9aMTaLb/hq3C0TK4TWGyDiUmRgFC+48C2
 4sa/dBFoKxqt/B8oRTgvooxp3PmvXeSL3LjqpFI+W



___
$0 Web Hosting with up to 120MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer
10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more.
Signup at www.doteasy.com

Re: Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue

2004-11-07 Thread James A. Donald

--
James Donald:
  I routinely call people like you nazi-commies.
Eugen Leitl wrote:
 How novel and interesting.

 Cut the rhetoric, get on with the program. Cypherpunks write code.
I also write code, unlike people like you.
See for example www.echeque.com/Kong
--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 iRF6jCg0M9tIDOFv9wmxaZxcMi0N2C6vQn8oF4IO
 42OhxMux7d4g+wGUgQBqxmiP8H6QXmmOGpbq5bqCd

Re: Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue

2004-11-07 Thread R.A. Hettinga

At 8:08 PM +0100 11/6/04, Eugen Leitl wrote:
Cypherpunks write code.

Right. That's it. Wanna write me a bearer mint? For free?

;-)

Cheers,
RAH

-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Re: Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue

2004-11-07 Thread Chris Kuethe

Fun bits to read, somewhat related to Owell and the perceived notional
differences between various... extremists.

http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/en/wikipedia/f/fa/fascism.html
http://www.k-1.com/Orwell/site/opinion/essays/storgaard1.html
http://orwell.ru/library/articles/As_I_Please/english/efasc
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm

Certainly one could infer from reading Politics and the English
Language that Orwell could've or would've thought such a thing.  If
anyone finds it before I do, post a link, will ya?

CK

On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 18:38:21 -0500, R.A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 At 9:31 AM -0800 11/6/04, James Donald wrote:
 As George Orwell observed, anyone who thinks there is a significant
 difference between nazis and commies is in favor of one or the other.
 
 I'm going to have hunt that one up for my .sig file.
 
 Thank you.
 
 
 
 Cheers,
 RAH
 
 --
 -
 R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
 ... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
 [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
 experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
 
 


-- 
GDB has a 'break' feature; why doesn't it have 'fix' too?

Re: Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue

2004-11-07 Thread R.A. Hettinga

At 9:31 AM -0800 11/6/04, James Donald wrote:
As George Orwell observed, anyone who thinks there is a significant
difference between nazis and commies is in favor of one or the other.

I'm going to have hunt that one up for my .sig file.

Thank you.

Cheers,
RAH

-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Re: Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue

2004-11-06 Thread Nomen Nescio

John Young:

 Tyler,
 
 Commie is the term used here like is nazi used elsewhere
 as the most fearsome if thoughtless epithet. Nazi here is a 
 term of endearment, and also admirable role model by some.
 
 Calling someone both is not allowed, check the FAQ under impurity.
 
 Tim May, praise Allah, always claimed cypherpunks was a fair and
 balanced forum thanks to the one person of the left here who 
 was fingered affectionately like a house rodent, an easy target for
 errant shooters.
 
 CJ is not to be recalled, ever.
 
 Jim Bell still sends very important legal papers, the latest
 yesterday, which describe the way things should be understood. But
 who can believe an MIT chemist political prisoner.
 
 CJ and Jim jailed by the Democratic freedom-fighters.


CJ is CJ Parker, who posted a few emails to this list back in
early 2003? I guess I haven't been around long enough to know all
famous cpunks who have been posting to the list. Maybe someone could
tell in short who those were, I guess there are one or two on the
list who weren't around and would appreciate the stories.

I think I remember having read about Bell, something about him having
threatened FBI agents or something?

Does Jim Bell post emails somewhere today?

Why Americans Hate Dissenters

2004-11-06 Thread John Young

On CJ (Carl Johnson) and Jim Bell:

There was a time when the greatest terrorist threat to the
US was located in the northwestern part of the country,
Idaho, Washington State and Oregon, some of California.
Militia the infidels were called.

The US Attorney's Office in Tacoma, WA, was a center
of counterterrorist activity, aided by FBI, Treasury, IRS,
US Marshals, DEA and others.

Jim Bell was twice busted, tried, convicted and jailed, by the
Tacoma USA, for alleged acts against the USG, primarily 
the IRS, but knowledgeable citizens presume the assault 
was the result of his essay, Assassination Politics (AP), 
which descibed a system for anonymous killing of varmints, 
government officials especially, but not limited to those.

CJ defended Jim with a series of online statements on his
behalf, and for allegedly running an online version of AP.
For this misbehavior he was busted, tried, convicted and jailed,
also by the Tacoma USA.

Jim served his first term, allegedly misbehaved again,
and was sent to jail again, where he remains and continues
to file appeals of his railroading. CJ served a term and is 
now free, pursuing among other wonders his career as
the King of Country Porn.

Bell and CJ posted regularly to cypherpunks during their
days of pre-jailing, and some of their messages here were
used against them during trial. An agent of the IRS, Jeff
Gordon was a known subscriber of cypherpunks for
the purpose of surveilling members and stashing useful
email evidence to advance his career -- Jeff was indeed 
awarded honors for his investigation and jailing of the 
heroes of the revolution. Here's a US Marshal report on 
Jeff's snooping:

-


http://cryptome.org/jdb/usms020499.htm

   On November 25, 1997, Inspector Jeff GORDAN with the Internal
Revenue Service (IRS) Portland, Oregon, contacted the U.S.
Marshals Service, Tacoma, Washington, regarding an internet
posting he had obtained on this day (see attached).

[http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.97.11.20-97.11.26/msg00274.html]

   On the same date, Deputy U.S. Marshal STEPHENSON contacted
Inspector GORDAN in an attempt obtain further details regarding
the individuals mentioned in the internet posting. Inspector
GORDAN related the following:


   On May 17, 1997, the IRS in Vancouver, Washington, arrested
James Dalton BELL (#26906-086) for threats, assaults,
obstruction, and intimidation of employees and officers of the
IRS. During IRS's initial investigation of BELL, the IRS
discovered that BELL was associated with the Multnomah County
Common Law Court as well as the author of Assassination
Politics, an essay that describes and advocates the development
and use of a system to reward people who kill selected Government
employees. BELL was also known to transmit his beliefs via
internet services (see W/WA case #CR97-5270FDB).

   Inspector GORDON indicated that since BELL's arrest his office
has been monitoring internet postings by the Cypherpunks, one of
the groups BELL was known to be communicating with. Many of the
postings are simply communications between members of the group
regarding their dissatisfaction with the Government. Inspector
GORDAN related that this posting was a concern due to the
statement made by the author, indicating that Tim MAY announced
he would be murdering Jim Bell's judge (known to be U.S. District
Judge Franklin BURGESS or Magistrate J. Kelly ARNOLD) on Friday,
at 4;00 p.m.

   Inspector GORDAN indicated that he is not familiar with the
author of the posting, Bad BobbyH, however he was familiar with
Tim MAY. Inspector GORDAN described MAY as being an
anarchist/survivalist who seems to spend much of his time
communicating his beliefs via the internet. According to
Inspector GORDAN, MAY is retired and fairly well off, making
his fortune years ago by developing computer programs. May also
has a tendency to attempt to goat or bait law enforcement
officers into taking action and has repeatedly stated he would
shoot any law enforcement officers who attempted to arrest him.

   Inspector GORDAN provided the following information regarding
the individuals mentioned in the posting:

   Timothy C. MAY (DoB: 12/21/51  SSN: XXX-XX-XXX)
   XXX
   Corralltos, CA 95078

   Robert HETTINGA
   XXX
   Boston, MA 02131

   Inspector GORDAN disclosed that his office is unable to trace
the posting because the address, Robert Heidegger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]),
is false/untraceable.

   On November 25, 1997, U.S. District Judge Franklin BURGESS and
Magistrate Judge J. Kelly ARNOLD were notified by Supervisory
Deputy Glenn WHALEY and Deputy STEPHENSON reference the internet

posting.

   A copy of the internet posting was forwarded to FBI Special
Agent Ron Stankye (360) 695-5661.

   Attached is a copy of another posting by the Cypherpunks
previously received on June 23, 1997 regarding Magistrate J.
Kelly ARNOLD.

   If you have any questions regarding this matter, please call
Deputy STEPHENSON at (253) 593-6344.

-

Several cypherpunks

Re: Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue

2004-11-06 Thread James Donald

--
 John Young wrote:
 Commie is the term used here like is nazi used elsewhere as the most
 fearsome if thoughtless epithet. Nazi here is a term of endearment,
 and also admirable role model by some.

 Calling someone both is not allowed, check the FAQ under impurity.

I routinely call people like you nazi-commies.

As George Orwell observed, anyone who thinks there is a significant 
difference between nazis and commies is in favor of one or the other.

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 tcPPLhn9aMTaLb/hq3C0TK4TWGyDiUmRgFC+48C2
 4sa/dBFoKxqt/B8oRTgvooxp3PmvXeSL3LjqpFI+W



___
$0 Web Hosting with up to 120MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer
10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more.
Signup at www.doteasy.com

Re: Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue

2004-11-06 Thread Eugen Leitl

On Sat, Nov 06, 2004 at 09:31:24AM -0800, James Donald wrote:

 I routinely call people like you nazi-commies.

How novel and interesting.

Cut the rhetoric, get on with the program. Cypherpunks write code.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a
__
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net


pgpJ6yWZU03Sk.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue

2004-11-06 Thread R.A. Hettinga

At 8:08 PM +0100 11/6/04, Eugen Leitl wrote:
Cypherpunks write code.

Right. That's it. Wanna write me a bearer mint? For free?

;-)

Cheers,
RAH

-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Re: Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue

2004-11-06 Thread R.A. Hettinga

At 9:31 AM -0800 11/6/04, James Donald wrote:
As George Orwell observed, anyone who thinks there is a significant
difference between nazis and commies is in favor of one or the other.

I'm going to have hunt that one up for my .sig file.

Thank you.

Cheers,
RAH

-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Re: Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue

2004-11-06 Thread Chris Kuethe

Fun bits to read, somewhat related to Owell and the perceived notional
differences between various... extremists.

http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/en/wikipedia/f/fa/fascism.html
http://www.k-1.com/Orwell/site/opinion/essays/storgaard1.html
http://orwell.ru/library/articles/As_I_Please/english/efasc
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm

Certainly one could infer from reading Politics and the English
Language that Orwell could've or would've thought such a thing.  If
anyone finds it before I do, post a link, will ya?

CK

On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 18:38:21 -0500, R.A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 At 9:31 AM -0800 11/6/04, James Donald wrote:
 As George Orwell observed, anyone who thinks there is a significant
 difference between nazis and commies is in favor of one or the other.
 
 I'm going to have hunt that one up for my .sig file.
 
 Thank you.
 
 
 
 Cheers,
 RAH
 
 --
 -
 R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
 ... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
 [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
 experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
 
 


-- 
GDB has a 'break' feature; why doesn't it have 'fix' too?

Re: Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue

2004-11-06 Thread James A. Donald

--
James Donald:
  I routinely call people like you nazi-commies.
Eugen Leitl wrote:
 How novel and interesting.

 Cut the rhetoric, get on with the program. Cypherpunks write code.
I also write code, unlike people like you.
See for example www.echeque.com/Kong
--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 iRF6jCg0M9tIDOFv9wmxaZxcMi0N2C6vQn8oF4IO
 42OhxMux7d4g+wGUgQBqxmiP8H6QXmmOGpbq5bqCd

Re: Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue

2004-11-06 Thread Nomen Nescio

John Young:

 Tyler,
 
 Commie is the term used here like is nazi used elsewhere
 as the most fearsome if thoughtless epithet. Nazi here is a 
 term of endearment, and also admirable role model by some.
 
 Calling someone both is not allowed, check the FAQ under impurity.
 
 Tim May, praise Allah, always claimed cypherpunks was a fair and
 balanced forum thanks to the one person of the left here who 
 was fingered affectionately like a house rodent, an easy target for
 errant shooters.
 
 CJ is not to be recalled, ever.
 
 Jim Bell still sends very important legal papers, the latest
 yesterday, which describe the way things should be understood. But
 who can believe an MIT chemist political prisoner.
 
 CJ and Jim jailed by the Democratic freedom-fighters.


CJ is CJ Parker, who posted a few emails to this list back in
early 2003? I guess I haven't been around long enough to know all
famous cpunks who have been posting to the list. Maybe someone could
tell in short who those were, I guess there are one or two on the
list who weren't around and would appreciate the stories.

I think I remember having read about Bell, something about him having
threatened FBI agents or something?

Does Jim Bell post emails somewhere today?

Why Americans Hate Dissenters

2004-11-06 Thread John Young

On CJ (Carl Johnson) and Jim Bell:

There was a time when the greatest terrorist threat to the
US was located in the northwestern part of the country,
Idaho, Washington State and Oregon, some of California.
Militia the infidels were called.

The US Attorney's Office in Tacoma, WA, was a center
of counterterrorist activity, aided by FBI, Treasury, IRS,
US Marshals, DEA and others.

Jim Bell was twice busted, tried, convicted and jailed, by the
Tacoma USA, for alleged acts against the USG, primarily 
the IRS, but knowledgeable citizens presume the assault 
was the result of his essay, Assassination Politics (AP), 
which descibed a system for anonymous killing of varmints, 
government officials especially, but not limited to those.

CJ defended Jim with a series of online statements on his
behalf, and for allegedly running an online version of AP.
For this misbehavior he was busted, tried, convicted and jailed,
also by the Tacoma USA.

Jim served his first term, allegedly misbehaved again,
and was sent to jail again, where he remains and continues
to file appeals of his railroading. CJ served a term and is 
now free, pursuing among other wonders his career as
the King of Country Porn.

Bell and CJ posted regularly to cypherpunks during their
days of pre-jailing, and some of their messages here were
used against them during trial. An agent of the IRS, Jeff
Gordon was a known subscriber of cypherpunks for
the purpose of surveilling members and stashing useful
email evidence to advance his career -- Jeff was indeed 
awarded honors for his investigation and jailing of the 
heroes of the revolution. Here's a US Marshal report on 
Jeff's snooping:

-


http://cryptome.org/jdb/usms020499.htm

   On November 25, 1997, Inspector Jeff GORDAN with the Internal
Revenue Service (IRS) Portland, Oregon, contacted the U.S.
Marshals Service, Tacoma, Washington, regarding an internet
posting he had obtained on this day (see attached).

[http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.97.11.20-97.11.26/msg00274.html]

   On the same date, Deputy U.S. Marshal STEPHENSON contacted
Inspector GORDAN in an attempt obtain further details regarding
the individuals mentioned in the internet posting. Inspector
GORDAN related the following:


   On May 17, 1997, the IRS in Vancouver, Washington, arrested
James Dalton BELL (#26906-086) for threats, assaults,
obstruction, and intimidation of employees and officers of the
IRS. During IRS's initial investigation of BELL, the IRS
discovered that BELL was associated with the Multnomah County
Common Law Court as well as the author of Assassination
Politics, an essay that describes and advocates the development
and use of a system to reward people who kill selected Government
employees. BELL was also known to transmit his beliefs via
internet services (see W/WA case #CR97-5270FDB).

   Inspector GORDON indicated that since BELL's arrest his office
has been monitoring internet postings by the Cypherpunks, one of
the groups BELL was known to be communicating with. Many of the
postings are simply communications between members of the group
regarding their dissatisfaction with the Government. Inspector
GORDAN related that this posting was a concern due to the
statement made by the author, indicating that Tim MAY announced
he would be murdering Jim Bell's judge (known to be U.S. District
Judge Franklin BURGESS or Magistrate J. Kelly ARNOLD) on Friday,
at 4;00 p.m.

   Inspector GORDAN indicated that he is not familiar with the
author of the posting, Bad BobbyH, however he was familiar with
Tim MAY. Inspector GORDAN described MAY as being an
anarchist/survivalist who seems to spend much of his time
communicating his beliefs via the internet. According to
Inspector GORDAN, MAY is retired and fairly well off, making
his fortune years ago by developing computer programs. May also
has a tendency to attempt to goat or bait law enforcement
officers into taking action and has repeatedly stated he would
shoot any law enforcement officers who attempted to arrest him.

   Inspector GORDAN provided the following information regarding
the individuals mentioned in the posting:

   Timothy C. MAY (DoB: 12/21/51  SSN: XXX-XX-XXX)
   XXX
   Corralltos, CA 95078

   Robert HETTINGA
   XXX
   Boston, MA 02131

   Inspector GORDAN disclosed that his office is unable to trace
the posting because the address, Robert Heidegger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]),
is false/untraceable.

   On November 25, 1997, U.S. District Judge Franklin BURGESS and
Magistrate Judge J. Kelly ARNOLD were notified by Supervisory
Deputy Glenn WHALEY and Deputy STEPHENSON reference the internet

posting.

   A copy of the internet posting was forwarded to FBI Special
Agent Ron Stankye (360) 695-5661.

   Attached is a copy of another posting by the Cypherpunks
previously received on June 23, 1997 regarding Magistrate J.
Kelly ARNOLD.

   If you have any questions regarding this matter, please call
Deputy STEPHENSON at (253) 593-6344.

-

Several cypherpunks

Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue

Here ya go, John and Bill,

Knock yourselves out...

:-)

Cheers,
RAH
---


http://slate.msn.com/toolbar.aspx?action=printid=2109218

Slate

politics
Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue
The unteachable ignorance of the red states.
By Jane Smiley
Updated  Thursday, Nov. 4, 2004, at 3:24 PM PT


The day after the election, Slate's political writers tackled the question
of why the Democratic Party-which has now lost five of the past seven
presidential elections and solidified its minority status in Congress-keeps
losing elections. Chris Suellentrop says that John Kerry was too nuanced
and technocratic, while George W. Bush offered a vision of expanding
freedom around the world. William Saletan argues that Democratic candidates
won't win until they again cast their policies the way Bill Clinton did, in
terms of values and moral responsibility. Timothy Noah contends that none
of the familiar advice to the party-move right, move left, or sit
tight-seems likely to help. Slate asked a number of wise liberals to take
up the question of why Americans won't vote for the Democrats. Click here
to read previous entries.

I say forget introspection. It's time to be honest about our antagonists.
My predecessors in this conversation are thoughtful men, and I honor their
ideas, but let's try something else. I grew up in Missouri and most of my
family voted for Bush, so I am going to be the one to say it: The election
results reflect the decision of the right wing to cultivate and exploit
ignorance in the citizenry. I suppose the good news is that 55 million
Americans have evaded the ignorance-inducing machine. But 58 million have
not. (Well, almost 58 million-my relatives are not ignorant, they are just
greedy and full of classic Republican feelings of superiority.)

Ignorance and bloodlust have a long tradition in the United States,
especially in the red states. There used to be a kind of hand-to-hand fight
on the frontier called a knock-down-drag-out, where any kind of gouging,
biting, or maiming was considered fair. The ancestors of today's red-state
voters used to stand around cheering and betting on these fights. When the
forces of red and blue encountered one another head-on for the first time
in Kansas Territory in 1856, the red forces from Missouri, who had been
coveting Indian land across the Missouri River since 1820, entered Kansas
and stole the territorial election. The red news media of the day made a
practice of inflammatory lying-declaring that the blue folks had shot and
killed red folks whom everyone knew were walking around. The worst civilian
massacre in American history took place in Lawrence, Kan., in
1862-Quantrill's raid. The red forces, known then as the slave-power,
pulled 265 unarmed men from their beds on a Sunday morning and slaughtered
them in front of their wives and children. The error that progressives have
consistently committed over the years is to underestimate the vitality of
ignorance in America. Listen to what the red state citizens say about
themselves, the songs they write, and the sermons they flock to. They know
who they are-they are full of original sin and they have a taste for
violence. The blue state citizens make the Rousseauvian mistake of thinking
humans are essentially good, and so they never realize when they are about
to be slugged from behind.

Here is how ignorance works: First, they put the fear of God into you-if
you don't believe in the literal word of the Bible, you will burn in hell.
Of course, the literal word of the Bible is tremendously contradictory, and
so you must abdicate all critical thinking, and accept a simple but logical
system of belief that is dangerous to question. A corollary to this point
is that they make sure you understand that Satan resides in the toils and
snares of complex thought and so it is best not try it.

Next, they tell you that you are the best of a bad lot (humans, that is)
and that as bad as you are, if you stick with them, you are among the
chosen. This is flattering and reassuring, and also encourages you to
imagine the terrible fates of those you envy and resent. American
politicians ALWAYS operate by a similar sort of flattery, and so Americans
are never induced to question themselves. That's what happened to Jimmy
Carter-he asked Americans to take responsibility for their profligate ways,
and promptly lost to Ronald Reagan, who told them once again that they
could do anything they wanted. The history of the last four years shows
that red state types, above all, do not want to be told what to do-they
prefer to be ignorant. As a result, they are virtually unteachable.

Third, and most important, when life grows difficult or fearsome, they
(politicians, preachers, pundits) encourage you to cling to your ignorance
with even more fervor. But by this time you don't need much
encouragement-you've put all your eggs into the ignorance basket, and
really, some kind of miraculous fruition (preferably accompanied by the
torment

Re: Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue

Well, this is just commie propaganda.

Bob, you know this is against list rules, everybody knows
what's right, stop blue-baiting, you fucking nazi.

Re: Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue

At 1:05 PM -0800 11/5/04, John Young wrote:
Bob, you know this is against list rules, everybody knows
what's right, stop blue-baiting, you fucking nazi.

:-)

Cheers,
RAH

-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Re: Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue

2004-11-05 Thread Tyler Durden

I dunno...a lot of it made sense to me.
You don't have to be a Commie in order to believe that someone ELSE believes 
there's a class war, and that they gotta keep us black folks po', or else 
we'll soon be having sex with their wives and daughters and competing with 
their sons for decent jobs. And as long as that somebody else believes 
there's a class war, they're probably going to vote like there's one, and 
try to dupe as many others as they can into voting like there's one, and 
that they're in the in-crowd.

And then of course they'll open a military base everynow and then to 
demonstrate their largesse.

-TD
From: R.A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: John Young [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:15:48 -0500
At 1:05 PM -0800 11/5/04, John Young wrote:
Bob, you know this is against list rules, everybody knows
what's right, stop blue-baiting, you fucking nazi.
:-)
Cheers,
RAH
--
-
R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
_
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Re: Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue

Tyler,

Commie is the term used here like is nazi used elsewhere
as the most fearsome if thoughtless epithet. Nazi here is a 
term of endearment, and also admirable role model by some.

Calling someone both is not allowed, check the FAQ under impurity.

Tim May, praise Allah, always claimed cypherpunks was a fair and
balanced forum thanks to the one person of the left here who 
was fingered affectionately like a house rodent, an easy target for
errant shooters.

CJ is not to be recalled, ever.

Jim Bell still sends very important legal papers, the latest yesterday, 
which describe the way things should be understood. But who can
believe an MIT chemist political prisoner.

CJ and Jim jailed by the Democratic freedom-fighters.

Re: Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue

Well, this is just commie propaganda.

Bob, you know this is against list rules, everybody knows
what's right, stop blue-baiting, you fucking nazi.

Re: Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue

At 1:05 PM -0800 11/5/04, John Young wrote:
Bob, you know this is against list rules, everybody knows
what's right, stop blue-baiting, you fucking nazi.

:-)

Cheers,
RAH

-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue

Here ya go, John and Bill,

Knock yourselves out...

:-)

Cheers,
RAH
---


http://slate.msn.com/toolbar.aspx?action=printid=2109218

Slate

politics
Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue
The unteachable ignorance of the red states.
By Jane Smiley
Updated  Thursday, Nov. 4, 2004, at 3:24 PM PT


The day after the election, Slate's political writers tackled the question
of why the Democratic Party-which has now lost five of the past seven
presidential elections and solidified its minority status in Congress-keeps
losing elections. Chris Suellentrop says that John Kerry was too nuanced
and technocratic, while George W. Bush offered a vision of expanding
freedom around the world. William Saletan argues that Democratic candidates
won't win until they again cast their policies the way Bill Clinton did, in
terms of values and moral responsibility. Timothy Noah contends that none
of the familiar advice to the party-move right, move left, or sit
tight-seems likely to help. Slate asked a number of wise liberals to take
up the question of why Americans won't vote for the Democrats. Click here
to read previous entries.

I say forget introspection. It's time to be honest about our antagonists.
My predecessors in this conversation are thoughtful men, and I honor their
ideas, but let's try something else. I grew up in Missouri and most of my
family voted for Bush, so I am going to be the one to say it: The election
results reflect the decision of the right wing to cultivate and exploit
ignorance in the citizenry. I suppose the good news is that 55 million
Americans have evaded the ignorance-inducing machine. But 58 million have
not. (Well, almost 58 million-my relatives are not ignorant, they are just
greedy and full of classic Republican feelings of superiority.)

Ignorance and bloodlust have a long tradition in the United States,
especially in the red states. There used to be a kind of hand-to-hand fight
on the frontier called a knock-down-drag-out, where any kind of gouging,
biting, or maiming was considered fair. The ancestors of today's red-state
voters used to stand around cheering and betting on these fights. When the
forces of red and blue encountered one another head-on for the first time
in Kansas Territory in 1856, the red forces from Missouri, who had been
coveting Indian land across the Missouri River since 1820, entered Kansas
and stole the territorial election. The red news media of the day made a
practice of inflammatory lying-declaring that the blue folks had shot and
killed red folks whom everyone knew were walking around. The worst civilian
massacre in American history took place in Lawrence, Kan., in
1862-Quantrill's raid. The red forces, known then as the slave-power,
pulled 265 unarmed men from their beds on a Sunday morning and slaughtered
them in front of their wives and children. The error that progressives have
consistently committed over the years is to underestimate the vitality of
ignorance in America. Listen to what the red state citizens say about
themselves, the songs they write, and the sermons they flock to. They know
who they are-they are full of original sin and they have a taste for
violence. The blue state citizens make the Rousseauvian mistake of thinking
humans are essentially good, and so they never realize when they are about
to be slugged from behind.

Here is how ignorance works: First, they put the fear of God into you-if
you don't believe in the literal word of the Bible, you will burn in hell.
Of course, the literal word of the Bible is tremendously contradictory, and
so you must abdicate all critical thinking, and accept a simple but logical
system of belief that is dangerous to question. A corollary to this point
is that they make sure you understand that Satan resides in the toils and
snares of complex thought and so it is best not try it.

Next, they tell you that you are the best of a bad lot (humans, that is)
and that as bad as you are, if you stick with them, you are among the
chosen. This is flattering and reassuring, and also encourages you to
imagine the terrible fates of those you envy and resent. American
politicians ALWAYS operate by a similar sort of flattery, and so Americans
are never induced to question themselves. That's what happened to Jimmy
Carter-he asked Americans to take responsibility for their profligate ways,
and promptly lost to Ronald Reagan, who told them once again that they
could do anything they wanted. The history of the last four years shows
that red state types, above all, do not want to be told what to do-they
prefer to be ignorant. As a result, they are virtually unteachable.

Third, and most important, when life grows difficult or fearsome, they
(politicians, preachers, pundits) encourage you to cling to your ignorance
with even more fervor. But by this time you don't need much
encouragement-you've put all your eggs into the ignorance basket, and
really, some kind of miraculous fruition (preferably accompanied by the
torment

Re: Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue

2004-11-05 Thread Tyler Durden

I dunno...a lot of it made sense to me.
You don't have to be a Commie in order to believe that someone ELSE believes 
there's a class war, and that they gotta keep us black folks po', or else 
we'll soon be having sex with their wives and daughters and competing with 
their sons for decent jobs. And as long as that somebody else believes 
there's a class war, they're probably going to vote like there's one, and 
try to dupe as many others as they can into voting like there's one, and 
that they're in the in-crowd.

And then of course they'll open a military base everynow and then to 
demonstrate their largesse.

-TD
From: R.A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: John Young [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:15:48 -0500
At 1:05 PM -0800 11/5/04, John Young wrote:
Bob, you know this is against list rules, everybody knows
what's right, stop blue-baiting, you fucking nazi.
:-)
Cheers,
RAH
--
-
R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
_
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! 
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

Re: Why Americans Hate Democrats-A Dialogue