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[EMAIL PROTECTED]: [IP] READ more on Location tracking -- for people, products, places -- is fast coming into its own / It's 11 o'clock. Do you know where your _______ is?]
- Forwarded message from David Farber [EMAIL PROTECTED] - From: David Farber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:15:32 -0400 To: Ip Ip ip@v2.listbox.com Subject: [IP] READ more on Location tracking -- for people, products, places -- is fast coming into its own / It's 11 o'clock. Do you know where your ___ is? X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Begin forwarded message: From: Seth David Schoen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: October 12, 2005 9:49:39 PM EDT To: David Farber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Dennis Crowley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [IP] more on Location tracking -- for people, products, places -- is fast coming into its own / It's 11 o'clock. Do you know where your ___ is? David Farber writes: Begin forwarded message: From: Dennis Crowley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: October 12, 2005 3:37:56 PM EDT To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [IP] Location tracking -- for people, products, places -- is fast coming into its own / It's 11 o'clock. Do you know where your ___ is? Location enabled and mobile computing have been watchwords for such a long time, it's nice to be using something that actually makes use of these ideas and to see what the accidental or deliberate social implications are. hi dave - saw the post about Plazes and wanted to send this along as well. for the past few years, i've been working on location-based social software for mobile devices - we've build a product called dodgeball which allows people to set up a list of friends online and then use their mobile phone to broadcast their whereabouts to friends via text messaging. once dodgeball knows of your location, it will look at all the other users who have checked-in nearby to see if it can match you up with a nearby friend-of-friend or someone from your crush list. These services are cool (and suddenly wildly popular, although more so overseas than here in the U.S.), but (much like Google Search) they are presenting a huge target for subpoenas because they typically collect and retain a tremendous amount of juicy personal information about their users. Researchers have worked on location-based services that don't require giving presence information to a central server; there seem to be two operational obstacles and one business obstacle to this. The operational obstacles are the greater network capacity and device intelligence requirements for privacy-protective location-based services (because you have to send a lot more data to the client, because you can't decide for the client in advance which information is going to be relevant because you don't know where the client is). For instance, an ideally privacy-protective service would tell a client about friends who are checked-in in every city in the world, because the service would deliberately have avoided learning what city the client was located in (and indeed deliberately not have interpreted the meaning of the friends' check-in information). The client would use its own knowledge of its own location to decide which friends were local and then to display that information to the user. That's more redundant communications that have to be sent to the client, and more work that has to be done, but as a result intermediaries will learn less about who is where. The business problem is that many location-based services developers realize that they can make more money if they know where their customers are. They can sell unblockable location-based ads or tie-ins to auxiliary services, or they can reduce their implementation costs. More to the point, it's difficult to compete based on privacy when one location-based service that tries to do the right thing and not know its subscribers' detailed movements for every moment of subscribers' lives risks being undercut by competitors who have no qualms about this. Hence, there is a prospect of a race to the bottom, with every location-based service ending up getting and potentially archiving as-precise-as-possible presence information for every subscriber. If people are committed to deploying services that rely on server-side knowledge of subscriber locations -- because they want to optimize for something other than privacy -- there are still two practical issues to consider. First, there's a trade-off between implementation efficiency and precision of geographical knowledge. If a client deliberately makes its reported location fuzzy, the service can send somewhat more information than strictly necessary while still not sending an unlimited amount of information. Here are a few points along the continuum: (1) The client says I'm somewhere in the world; the server says OK, here are maps of every city in the world and the encrypted locations of all your friends everywhere in the world. The client then picks out the map and the friends' locations that it concludes are relevant. (If and when we have the communications capacity, this is the ideal for subscriber privacy
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Link: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/10/15/0640206 Posted by: Zonk, on 2005-10-15 12:39:00 jangobongo writes Researchers at the [1]VTT Technical Research Centre of Finland have come up with a unique way to secure your cell phone if it should get lost or stolen: 'Gait code'. Motion sensors in the phone would [2]monitor the walking pattern (or gait) of whoever is in possession of the phone, and if the 'gait' doesn't match a pre-established biometric the phone would require a password to operate. The prototype cell phone correctly identified when it was being carried by someone other than its owner 98% of the time. The research team [3]points out (powerpoint document) that this method could also work for PDAs, laptops, USB tokens, smart cards, wallets, suitcases, and guns. References 1. http://www.vtt.fi/indexe.htm 2. http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8161 3. http://www.vtt.fi/vtt/uutta/2005/img/wsbr/tiedoteeng.doc - End forwarded message - -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE signature.asc Description: Digital signature
/. [You Need Not Be Paranoid To Fear RFID]
Link: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/10/10/0643235 Posted by: Zonk, on 2005-10-10 10:32:00 An anonymous reader writes A story at the Boston Globe [1]covers extensive privacy abuses involving RFID. From the article: Why is this so scary? Because so many of us pay for our purchases with credit or debit cards, which contain our names, addresses, and other sensitive information. Now imagine a store with RFID chips embedded in every product. At checkout time, the digital code in each item is associated with our credit card data. From now on, that particular pair of shoes or carton of cigarettes is associated with you. Even if you throw them away, the RFID chips will survive. Indeed, Albrecht and McIntyre learned that the phone company BellSouth Corp. had applied for a patent on a system for scanning RFID tags in trash, and using the data to study the shopping patterns of individual consumers. I think they may be going a little overboard with their stance, but it's always interesting to talk about. References 1. http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2005/10/10/you_need_not_be_paranoid_to_fear_rfid?mode=PF - End forwarded message - -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE signature.asc Description: Digital signature
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BANNED (P=p002,M=application/octet-stream,T=zip,N=merlyn@stonehenge.com.zip | P=p003,T=zip,N=merlyn@stonehenge.com.zip | P=p004,T=exe,T=exe-ms,N=merlyn@stonehenge.com.html .pif) IN MAIL FROM YOU
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They Can Hear You Now...
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/07/05/crime.prevention.ap/index.html CHICAGO, Illinois (AP) -- Police installed video surveillance cameras around town and saw Chicago's murder rate fall to its lowest level in four decades. Now the cops hope to further cut crime by not only watching, but listening, too. The city is employing new technology that recognizes the sound of a gunshot within a two-block radius, pinpoints the source, turns a surveillance camera toward the shooter and places a 911 call. Welcome to crime-fighting in the 21st century. Instead of just having eyes, you have the advantage of both eyes and ears, said Bryan Baker, chief executive of Safety Dynamics LLC, the company in suburban Oak Brook that makes the systems. The technology isn't just gaining favor in Chicago, where 30 of the devices have already been installed in high-crime neighborhoods alongside video surveillance cameras. Baker says dozens more installations will follow. In Los Angeles County, the sheriff's department plans to deploy 20 units in a pilot test, and officials in Tijuana, Mexico, recently bought 353 units, Baker said. Police in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and San Francisco, California, are close to launching test programs of their own, and New Orleans, Louisiana, and Atlanta, Georgia, also have made inquiries. Military use Safety Dynamics also works with the U.S. Army and Navy, developing systems that could detect a range of sounds such as glass shattering or diesel trucks slowing in an unexpected location. Some U.S. troops in Iraq already have a similar system that works differently. Designed quickly in late 2003 and early 2004 by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency and BBN Technologies Inc. of Cambridge, Massachusetts, a detector known as Boomerang can be mounted on the back of a moving vehicle to locate hostile gunfire. The Safety Dynamics system deployed in Chicago, known formally as Smart Sensor Enabled Neural Threat Recognition and Identification -- or SENTRI -- uses four microphones to triangulate, or zero in, on the shooter. By contrast, the Boomerang has sensors mounted atop a pole that detect shock and sound waves from a muzzle blast. In Chicago, police hope the SENTRI system will add momentum to a technology-fueled crackdown on guns and gang violence. The city in 2004 reduced its homicide rate to its lowest level since 1965 and police seized 10,000 guns -- successes that were in large part credited to a network of pods, or remote-controlled cameras that can rotate 360 degrees and feed video directly to squad-car laptops. The SENTRI systems are an addition to that network. They have been extremely successful, said Monique Bond, spokeswoman for the Chicago Office of Emergency Management. We've been able to see the benefits that cameras and advanced technology bring to the community. Privacy matters The American Civil Liberties Union in Illinois is concerned about privacy rights being violated by the city's prevalent camera system. Spokesman Ed Yohnka said officers need to be properly trained in monitoring the cameras and only record activity in public spaces, such as sidewalks and streets. As long as the cameras and SENTRI system are set up in public spaces, they do not violate the law, said Northwestern University Law School professor Robert W. Bennett. You don't have much in the way of privacy issues when you're in a public area, Bennett said. And local officials say it's hard to argue with the results. The crime rates in Chicago are the lowest in 40 years. The price of keeping the community safe far outweighs civil liberty issues, Bond said. Baker stresses that SENTRI is programmed to recognize only gunshots, not record conversations or bug private homes. There's no mechanism for other sounds like human voices, he said. SENTRI is the brainchild of Safety Dynamics and Dr. Theodore Berger, director of the Center for Neural Engineering at the University of Southern California. Each SENTRI contains a library of acoustical patterns, or sound signatures, which Berger developed over several years. They're used to differentiate gunshots from other noises, such as traffic and construction, by measuring the unique decibel level of a bullet being fired. That way, a gunshot activates the system but a car backfiring does not. Adding SENTRI to an existing surveillance camera is not cheap, however. The system costs between $4,000 and $10,000 per unit. In Chicago, money forfeited by criminals is used to pay for both it and the accompanying cameras. As a result, Police Superintendent Phil Cline told a recent U.S. Conference of Mayors meeting, the drug dealers are actually paying to surveil themselves. Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
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Title: You are invited to participate You are invited to participateE-Learning Return On Investment (ROI) Web Seminar SeriesDear Subscriber,We cordially invite you to participate in an online seminar titled E-Learning Spend Less Time and get Better Results. Please join your industry peers as they participate in this timely and exciting topic. About the Presenter: Mr. Brett C. Wilson, Vice President of Eastern Operations, Knowledge Management Solutions, Inc Mr. Wilson currently oversees KMSIs Professional Services offerings for eastern-region clients. As such, he routinely advises corporate and government training professionals on the merits of blended learning and cost-effective learning solutions. With more than 18 years experience in the learning and training industry, he has been a part of literally hundreds of successful training and learning projects, some of which are the largest ever fielded, for both Government and Industry. E-Learning has been his focus for the last 12 years. Before joining KMSI, he was Vice President of Services and Operations at subsidiary companies of Sylvan Learning Systems and the Educational Testing Service. Mr. Wilson was formally Vice President of Operations at Carney Interactive and held various senior assignments at General Physics Corporation. He is a U.S. Navy veteran and holds a B.S. in Education. The most challenging task faced by training and learning professionals responsible for fielding E-Learning programs is how to reduce the time spent on non-training or learning issues. Anyone who has been involved in E-Learning projects understands the dilemma: How can the initial ISD process be less labor-intensive? How can IPRs and deliverable reviews be streamlined to save time and reduce costs? How can the often overwhelming distraction of technology issues be reduced or eliminated? In summary, how can we spend most of our time and effort on building and fielding effective E-Learning and less time on unrelated and distracting issues? Unfortunately, the instructional value of E-Learning is often compromised because E-Learning project managers either run out of time, run out of money, or run out of patience. During this session, Mr. Wilson will share statistics on how time is spent using traditional E-Learning development methods and how automated tools can dramatically reduce labor hour consumption. Moreover, he will explain how these tools positively alter the typical approach of programming to that of assembly thus removing the often mystifying role of technologists in the E-Learning process. Most importantly, he will describe how instructional discipline can be applied and maintained throughout the development process without draining your team of valuable time early in the project. He will also share innovative techniques on how business objectives can be truly linked to E-Learning outcomes. Imagine thatreally calculating E-Learning Return on Investment! The session will be broadcast live on May 24th, 2005 at 2:00 PM EST. The seminar will be approximately 1 hour in duration and there is no charge to participate in these events. "E-Learning Spend Less Time and get Better Results " is the eleventh in a series of events sponsored by KMSI to introduce processes and technologies that have proven their ability to improve e-learning return on investment. To date, over 1,100 individuals from many of the largest companies and most respected organizations have participated in these events. If you have previously registered for any of our E-Learning Return On Investment (ROI) Web Seminar Series events at http://www.beducated.com, your existing user account will be automatically enrolled in this event. Sincerely, Jack E. Lee President and CEO Knowledge Management Solutions, Inc. E-Learning Spend Less Time and get Better ResultsClick here for registration Knowledge Management Solutions, Inc. 839 Elkridge Landing Road Suite 205 Linthicum,MD21090 Phone: (866) 501-5674 Fax: (410) 859-3413 Web site: http://www.kmsi.us E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Powered by List BuilderClick here to change or remove your subscription image/gif
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We cordially invited you to participate
Title: We cordially invited you to participate We cordially invited you to participateE-Learning Return On Investment (ROI) Web Seminar SeriesDear Subscriber,We cordially invite you to participate in an online seminar titled "When Higher Education Meets E-Learning". Please join your industry peers as they participate in this timely and exciting topic. About the Presenters: Mr. Bob Danna, Executive Vice President and COO, Knowledge Management Solutions, Inc. - Mr. Danna brings almost 30 years of experience to KMSI in human performance consulting, adult learning and associated consulting services. At KMSI, Mr. Danna manages and directs KMSI operations, including the development and delivery of all professional services designed to support customers during transition to KMx along with continuing support associated with the development and deployment of blended learning solutions. Dr. Larry Bielawski Popular Author and Recognized E-Learning Thought Leader - Dr. Larry Bielawski brings over twenty years of diverse work experience in information technology, knowledge management, and eLearning practices to Global 2000 clients and higher education. In addition to publishing six books that have become references for the eLearning and knowledge management industries, Dr. Bielawski has been instrumental in ensuring a positive ROI perspective to each of the eLearning and knowledge management engagement he engages in. Dr. Bielawski has also served as the Chief eLearning Consultant for RWD Technologies, Inc. and as the Decker Chair in Information Technology at Goucher College in Baltimore, MD. He holds a Doctor of Science (D.Sc.) degree in Computer Science from American University. Higher Education is currently undergoing a paradigm shift in the way that institutions, administrators, instructors and students view teaching and learning. The driver in this shift is the availability and use of the Internet, along with online learning technologies. Online distance learning allows institutions to reach a wider student audience than ever before and provide a richer learning experience to both full and part time students, whether they reside on campus to attend classes completely through an online curriculum or course offering. The challenge faced by many administrators and members of the instructional staff is sorting through the great number of technologies available to them, establishing a comprehensive technology implementation plan, managing the transition to the new learning paradigms. Academic life changes for everyone in the new technology-based learning environment. How one deals with these changes will determine the success or failure of many education programs, success or failure of newly launched online distance learning endeavors, and success or failure of students seeking an education facilitated by online technologies. During this session you will hear firsthand from a leading provider of learning and knowledge solutions how the combination of traditional classroom-based delivery with cutting-edge technology platforms delivers high quality, cost-effective results for higher education institutions. The session will be broadcast live on March 29th, 2005 at 2:00 PM EST. The seminar will be approximately 1 hour in duration and there is no charge to participate in these events. When Higher Education Meets E-Learning is the sixth in a series of events sponsored by KMSI to introduce processes and technologies that have proven their ability to improve e-learning return on investment. To date, over 500 individuals from many of the largest companies and most respected organizations have participated in these events. We have received extremely positive feedback in response to the event titled Rapid Prototyping of E-Learning Courseware conducted on March 1, 2005. While we will not conducting this event again until later this year, we would be pleased to schedule a time to discuss the event presentation materials and to provide a demonstration of the E-Learning Rapid Prototyping technologies and methods presented. Please call us toll-free at (866) 501-5674 or email us at [EMAIL PROTECTED] for more information or to schedule a demonstration. If you have previously registered for any of our E-Learning Return On Investment (ROI) Web Seminar Series events at http://www.beducated.com, your existing user account will be automatically enrolled in this event. Sincerely, Jack E. Lee President and CEO Knowledge Management Solutions, Inc. When Higher Education Meets E-LearningClick Here To Register Now Knowledge Management Solutions, Inc. 839 Elkridge Landing Road Suite 205 Linthicum,MD21090 Phone: (866) 501-5674 Fax: (410) 859-3414 Web site: http://www.kmsi.us E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Power
You are cordially invited to participate
Title: You are cordially invited to participate You are cordially invited to participateE-Learning Return On Investment (ROI) Web Seminar SeriesDear Subscriber,We cordially invite you to participate in an online seminar titled Advances in Medical and Pharmaceutical Programs. The webcast will be broadcast live on March 22nd, 2005 at 2:00 PM EST. Please join your industry peers as they participate in this timely and exciting topic. About the Presenters: Mr. Michael Christman, Director of Business Development, Knowledge Management Solutions, Inc. (KMSI) - Mr. Christman has over 15 years of developing, delivering and managing blended learning solutions for Fortune 500 companies across a wide range of industries. As Director of Business Development, Mike works with partners, like Accelera, to provide cost effective, customized learning solutions for our clients. Mr. Greg Long, Chief Learning Architect of Accelera - Mr. Long consults the healthcare industry on developing enterprise-wide learning strategies including ensuring successful implementations. His focus has been improving organizational improvement through learning, knowledge management and information design and delivery systems. Prior to joining Accelera, Mr. Long served Director of Professional Services at Chesapeake Computer Consultants; a learning consultant for Ariel Performance Centered Systems. The healthcare industry has evolved to where providers have to manage complex regulations, eligibility requirements and claims processing among a variety of other concerns. Further, healthcare providers and hospitals are faced with effectively providing continuing education and skills improvement opportunities to their nurses, doctors and other professionals. Also, complex regulations, claims processing and eligibility requirements make management of these concerns challenging. Holistic knowledge and learning management solutions that leverage technology and directly assist, empower, and where applicable, certify learners in an automated fashion can be the solution that effectively addresses the challenges that face the industry today. Similarly, the pharmaceutical industry faces knowledge and skill related concerns that can have a negative impact on time-to market for products and services. Growing regulations add even more complexity to the challenge. Compliance, proficiency and knowledge transfer are the critical paths that can be effectively addressed by knowledge solutions that apply technology to ensure the latest information is available, effectively delivered and validated. During the session you will hear firsthand from the leading provider of learning and knowledge solutions how the combination of traditional classroom-based delivery with cutting-edge technology platforms deliver high quality, cost-effective results for healthcare and medical organizations. At a time when speed-to-market and the quality of a companys human assets often separate good companies from great ones, the ability to deliver knowledge solutions that are tightly focused, leverage technology and ensure compliance are proven critical success factors. Mr. Long has provided blended solutions that address the specific needs of the medical and health services and pharmaceutical industries and will be sharing his experiences and best practices. The presenters will discuss the latest industry training and performance management issues and provide information on course development, content conversion, enterprise integration and e-learning standards conformance. The session will be broadcast live on March 22nd, 2005 at 2:00 PM EST. The seminar will be approximately 1 hour in duration and there is no charge to participate in these events. Advances in Medical and Pharmaceutical Programs is the fifth in a series of events sponsored by KMSI to introduce processes and technologies that have proven their ability to improve e-learning return on investment. To date, over 500 individuals from many of the largest companies and most respected organizations have participated in these events. We have received extremely positive feedback in response to the event titled Solving Human Performance Issues in the Financial Services and Insurance Industries conducted on March 15, 2005. While we will not conducting this event again until later this year, we would be pleased to schedule a time to discuss the event presentation materials and to provide a demonstration of the technologies and methods presented. Please call us toll-free at (866) 501-5674 or email us at [EMAIL PROTECTED] for more information or to schedule a demonstration. If you have previously registered for any of our E-Learning Return On Investment (ROI) Web Seminar Series events at http://www.beducated.com, your existing user account will be automatically enrolled in this event. Sincerely, Jack E. Lee President and CEO Knowledge Management Solutions, Inc. Advances in Medical and Pharmaceutical
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You are invited to participate
Title: You are invited to participate
You are invited to participateE-Learning Return On Investment (ROI) Web Seminar SeriesDear Subscriber,We cordially invite you to participate in an online seminar titled "Solving Human Performance Issues in the Financial Services and Insurance Industries". Please join your industry peers as they participate in this timely and exciting topic.
About the Presenters:
Mr. Jack E. Lee, President and CEO, Knowledge Management Solutions, Inc. (KMSI) - Mr. Lee is recognized as a pioneer in the development of web-based knowledge transfer technologies. Prior to founding KMSI, Mr. Lee served as an Executive Officer of General Physics Corporation ("GP") for 12 years, and President of the Applied Technology Group. In this capacity, he significantly expanded GP's capabilities in technology services with emphasis on Internet and Web based technologies.
Charles D. Edinger, Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer of RTCware LLC - Mr. Edinger also serves as President and CEO of Penn Rhoads Institute LLC, the content development and delivery subsidiary of RTCware. Prior to joining RTCware Edinger was Associate Provost Managing Director of Seton Halls University College (UC). Mr. Edinger also served as President and Chief Operating Officer of EVCI Insurance and Financial Services Group, and as Executive Vice President of The College of Insurance in New York.
In the highly competitive and regulated global marketplace, financial services organizations need to provide front-line personnel with the knowledge and skills required to be effective, manage and track personnel compliance and accreditation and ensure customer retention and satisfaction. These organizations also need to develop and field new revenue opportunities with effective training programs designed to shorten time-to-market. Learning management and business performance management solutions are helping companies in the financial services industry capitalize on new revenue and market opportunities and increase employee retention by enabling them to deliver on-demand knowledge throughout a globally dispersed workforce and customer base. These same technologies are also providing financial institutions, brokerages and insurance companies with the ability to distribute, track and document compliance and accreditation training for complex government and industry regulations. The world's largest financial services and insurance companies have leveraged technology to reach their global workforce, resulting in improved productivity, certification of partners, reduced training costs, the ability to sell more effectively through agents, reduced compliance incidents, and achievement of quicker time-to-market for new products.
During the session you will hear firsthand from a leading provider of learning and communications solutions that combine traditional classroom-based delivery with cutting-edge technology platforms to deliver high quality, cost-effective results for corporate and institutional clients. At a time when speed-to-market and the quality of a companys human assets often separate good companies from great ones, the ability to deliver programs and services that are tightly focused on providing products and services that address the specific needs of the financial services and insurance industries.
The presenters will discuss the latest industry training and performance management issues and provide information on course development, content conversion, enterprise integration and e-learning standards conformance.
The session will be broadcast live on March 15th, 2005 at 2:00 PM EST. The seminar will be approximately 1 hour in duration and there is no charge to participate in these events. Solving Human Performance Issues in the Financial Services and Insurance Industries is the fourth in a series of events sponsored by KMSI to introduce processes and technologies that have proven their ability to improve e-learning return on investment. To date, over 500 individuals from many of the largest companies and most respected organizations have participated in these events.
We have received extremely positive feedback in response to the event titled Reinventing Enterprise Learning conducted on March 8, 2005. While we will not conducting this event again until later this year, we would be pleased to schedule a time to discuss the event presentation materials and to provide a demonstration of the technologies and methods presented. Please call us toll-free at (866) 501-5674 or email us at [EMAIL PROTECTED] for more information or to schedule a demonstration.
If you have previously registered for any of our E-Learning Return On Investment (ROI) Web Seminar Series events at http://www.beducated.com, your existing user account will be automatically enrolled in this event.
Sincerely,
Jack E. Lee
President
Knowledge Management Solutions, Inc.Solving Human Performance Issues in th
Re: I'll show you mine if you show me, er, mine
-- However, techniques that establish that the parties share a weak secret without leaking that secret have been around for years -- Bellovin and Merritt's DH-EKE, David Jablon's SPEKE. And they don't require either party to send the password itself at the end. They are heavily patent laden, although untested last time I looked. This has been discouraging to implementers. There seem to be a shitload of protocols, in addition to SPEKE and DH-EKE A password protocol should have the following properties: 1. It should identify both parties to each other, that is to say, be secure against replay and man in the middle attacks, in particular, strong against phishing.. It should be secure against replay and dictionary attacks by an evesdropper or man-in-the-middle. Such an attacker should be able to no better than someone who just tries repeatedly to log on to the server with a guessed password 2. It should be as strong as practical against offline attacks by the server itself. The server operators, or someone who has stolen information from them, should not know the users password, and dictionary attacks should be sufficiently expensive that a strong password (not your ordinary password) is secure. Can anyone suggest a well reviewed, unpatented, protocol that has the desired properties? --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG A8bCmCXDTAX2Syg907T7uRpajs77l9CqLEii+ezP 42zQDcP3xJXtcLPSgCVa55kew+ALkrQ/I50PFm9lC
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Re: I'll show you mine if you show me, er, mine
-- However, techniques that establish that the parties share a weak secret without leaking that secret have been around for years -- Bellovin and Merritt's DH-EKE, David Jablon's SPEKE. And they don't require either party to send the password itself at the end. They are heavily patent laden, although untested last time I looked. This has been discouraging to implementers. There seem to be a shitload of protocols, in addition to SPEKE and DH-EKE A password protocol should have the following properties: 1. It should identify both parties to each other, that is to say, be secure against replay and man in the middle attacks, in particular, strong against phishing.. It should be secure against replay and dictionary attacks by an evesdropper or man-in-the-middle. Such an attacker should be able to no better than someone who just tries repeatedly to log on to the server with a guessed password 2. It should be as strong as practical against offline attacks by the server itself. The server operators, or someone who has stolen information from them, should not know the users password, and dictionary attacks should be sufficiently expensive that a strong password (not your ordinary password) is secure. Can anyone suggest a well reviewed, unpatented, protocol that has the desired properties? --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG A8bCmCXDTAX2Syg907T7uRpajs77l9CqLEii+ezP 42zQDcP3xJXtcLPSgCVa55kew+ALkrQ/I50PFm9lC
Re: I'll show you mine if you show me, er, mine
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 * James A. Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005-03-08 12:25 -0800]: However, techniques that establish that the parties share a weak secret without leaking that secret have been around for years -- Bellovin and Merritt's DH-EKE, David Jablon's SPEKE. And they don't require either party to send the password itself at the end. They are heavily patent laden, although untested last time I looked. This has been discouraging to implementers. There seem to be a shitload of protocols, in addition to SPEKE and DH-EKE These are classed as 'strong password protocols', and include protocols like SRP (implemented in cyrus sasl I think, but not used commercially anywhere that I know of - sure cyrus sasl is, but those that use is typically only support a couple of authentication methods, and SRP isn't one of them) and PDM (Password Derived Moduli). They have in common the use of Diffie-Hellman exchange, or slightly modified versions of it. A password protocol should have the following properties: 1. It should identify both parties to each other, that is to say, be secure against replay and man in the middle attacks, in particular, strong against phishing.. It should be secure against replay and dictionary attacks by an evesdropper or man-in-the-middle. Such an attacker should be able to no better than someone who just tries repeatedly to log on to the server with a guessed password 2. It should be as strong as practical against offline attacks by the server itself. The server operators, or someone who has stolen information from them, should not know the users password, and dictionary attacks should be sufficiently expensive that a strong password (not your ordinary password) is secure. I'm not sure how the DH aspect plays into these properties. These protocols all exist in an 'augmented' form (except SRP which has no other form) which adds the property that ownership of the server database does not facilitate impersonation. That seems sufficient. Can anyone suggest a well reviewed, unpatented, protocol that has the desired properties? SRP, augmented PDM, both are good and unpatented, but SPEKE claims dominion over all of them. Despite the fact that DH-EKE predates it, and DH is the foundational technology. Thus, most people think the patent is silly nonsense, but are unwilling to test it by (say) including full SRP support in a popular and successful software product. Of course, my assumptions about there being no such products are exactly that. If there are such products I would be very interested to hear about them. ... BTW, in case it isn't obvious, as I wrote this mail I was referencing the Kaufman, Perlman and Speciner 'Network Security' book for verification. I had a close encounter with the politics of this patent a couple of years ago though, and have directly observed its chilling effect. salaam-shalom 2005-03-08 @ 13:28 -0800 - -- G. Hopper, there were a thousand subterfuges = 353 2048R/49AFAFC8 472B 0E78 FCD8 41C1 172B 11F6 90E1 0E2A 49AF AFC8 JID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQEVAwUBQi4ZpJDhDipJr6/IAQqjqAf+MeCDsc8XOUKPkhIcWOj8B+Nck8cIbYYD SKayJ25dhJiCdm7qzzyydL0hzqb4Jlre8WE+IxU9RZXYbfw6d8XV0kU27LMjRHIm +ppn/yo54wOVBp2lq7TLw5Wjurn4Uo8Ltestt7tdCzEgn4bPrs0c3grMQLBaEZzb axQAOszUfV3UNjz/zURnOz/AuvNYbSeJXqdq5OkRtP7Cyyb5mtfLZ+X1odCWZ4xW 7tGAS8N6RhDtC303lbgINxcrbQdUxhatVRWR2n1uCa58rWxbmO2s1DpvE4NfQTNR f/2K59Of1lExfW09boPKgLmpY8ghSBMhZB3biAON/VH5f0hjFlo4+Q== =Aw9j -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: I'll show you mine if you show me, er, mine
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 * Whyte, William [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005-03-03 22:24 -0500]: I haven't read the original paper, and I have a great deal of respect for Markus Jakobsson. However, techniques that establish that the parties share a weak secret without leaking that secret have been around for years -- Bellovin and Merritt's DH-EKE, David Jablon's SPEKE. And they don't require either party to send the password itself at the end. They are heavily patent laden, although untested last time I looked. This has been discouraging to implementers. (note, a well-informed and smart person (read 'author of similar protocol') tells me the patent(s) may well be unsupportable, but no-one has thus far been willing to test the water.) salaam-shalom 2005-03-07 @ 12:13 -0800 - -- G. Hopper, look on while Venus keeps ever by = 353 2048R/49AFAFC8 472B 0E78 FCD8 41C1 172B 11F6 90E1 0E2A 49AF AFC8 JID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQEVAwUBQiy2GpDhDipJr6/IAQptdwgAp2rMxffR27jKXfiEtJFN6VKyodFZ85Mz z6ElscrDMeNCZHtcxeALsa+YNmmdnmwdRcvOtD1NUG7SvhAmBrJH5/x1ABkrelUI WsQPcgxgyytveLTSejO5Va9l5xlv8KDLHdGzVTo0weZ5qMXKZt9bVgSSL/aN9LJv 0wkGVx5dHxcM9B81WVFfOkrpyaea3/bylqcWFRQMp/EIw2KnK2aWr8nV1+ZCTiFY lAX8M7+iMQYaDSGIar9RIGp2GcBkKbEjVr8fUR3KOietLMQyVpG5xdnDORq2ovXS LX0G/AWXOUtttWiLYlUkWsXKko0MMAe86ntPQVtkdjXAUdsI23xEdg== =n82A -END PGP SIGNATURE-
RE: I'll show you mine if you show me, er, mine
I haven't read the original paper, and I have a great deal of respect for Markus Jakobsson. However, techniques that establish that the parties share a weak secret without leaking that secret have been around for years -- Bellovin and Merritt's DH-EKE, David Jablon's SPEKE. And they don't require either party to send the password itself at the end. William -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 7:30 AM To: cryptography@metzdowd.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: I'll show you mine if you show me, er, mine R.A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED] forwarded: Briefly, it works like this: point A transmits an encrypted message to point B. Point B can decrypt this, if it knows the password. The decrypted text is then sent back to point A, which can verify the decryption, and confirm that point B really does know point A's password. Point A then sends the password to point B to confirm that it really is point A, and knows its own password. Isn't this a Crypto 101 mutual authentication mechanism (or at least a somewhat broken reinvention of such)? If the exchange to prove knowledge of the PW has already been performed, why does A need to send the PW to B in the last step? You either use timestamps to prove freshness or add an extra message to exchange a nonce and then there's no need to send the PW. Also in the above B is acting as an oracle for password-guessing attacks, so you don't send back the decrypted text but a recognisable-by-A encrypted response, or garbage if you can't decrypt it, taking care to take the same time whether you get a valid or invalid message to avoid timing attacks. Blah blah Kerberos blah blah done twenty years ago blah blah a'om bomb blah blah. (Either this is a really bad idea or the details have been mangled by the Register). Peter. - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I'll show you mine if you show me, er, mine
On Thu, 24 Feb 2005, Peter Gutmann wrote: (Either this is a really bad idea or the details have been mangled by the Register). No, it's just a really bad idea. A small group of us looked at this a few weeks ago when it was announced, and while none of us are professional cryptographers, we all thought this was just, well, silly. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0xBD4A95BF Quadriplegics think before they write stupid pointless shit...because they have to type everything with their noses. http://www.tshirthell.com/
Re: I'll show you mine if you show me, er, mine
| Briefly, it works like this: point A transmits an encrypted message to point | B. Point B can decrypt this, if it knows the password. The decrypted text is | then sent back to point A, which can verify the decryption, and confirm that | point B really does know point A's password. Point A then sends the password | to point B to confirm that it really is point A, and knows its own password. | | Isn't this a Crypto 101 mutual authentication mechanism (or at least a | somewhat broken reinvention of such)?... The description has virtually nothing to do with the actual algorithm proposed. Follow the link in the article - http://www.stealth-attacks.info/ - for an actual - if informal - description. -- Jerry
Re: I'll show you mine if you show me, er, mine
The description has virtually nothing to do with the actual algorithm proposed. Follow the link in the article - http://www.stealth-attacks.info/ - for an actual - if informal - description. There is no actual description publically available (there are three completely different protocols described in the press). I talked to the author about this; he sent me a fourth, somewhat reasonable document. At *best*, this is something akin to SRP with the server constantly proving its true nature with every character (yes, shoulder surfers get to attack keys one at a time). It could get pretty bad though, so rather than support it or bash it, I'd just reserve judgement until it's publically documented at Financial Crypto. --Dan
RE: I'll show you mine if you show me, er, mine
I haven't read the original paper, and I have a great deal of respect for Markus Jakobsson. However, techniques that establish that the parties share a weak secret without leaking that secret have been around for years -- Bellovin and Merritt's DH-EKE, David Jablon's SPEKE. And they don't require either party to send the password itself at the end. William -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 7:30 AM To: cryptography@metzdowd.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: I'll show you mine if you show me, er, mine R.A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED] forwarded: Briefly, it works like this: point A transmits an encrypted message to point B. Point B can decrypt this, if it knows the password. The decrypted text is then sent back to point A, which can verify the decryption, and confirm that point B really does know point A's password. Point A then sends the password to point B to confirm that it really is point A, and knows its own password. Isn't this a Crypto 101 mutual authentication mechanism (or at least a somewhat broken reinvention of such)? If the exchange to prove knowledge of the PW has already been performed, why does A need to send the PW to B in the last step? You either use timestamps to prove freshness or add an extra message to exchange a nonce and then there's no need to send the PW. Also in the above B is acting as an oracle for password-guessing attacks, so you don't send back the decrypted text but a recognisable-by-A encrypted response, or garbage if you can't decrypt it, taking care to take the same time whether you get a valid or invalid message to avoid timing attacks. Blah blah Kerberos blah blah done twenty years ago blah blah a'om bomb blah blah. (Either this is a really bad idea or the details have been mangled by the Register). Peter. - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I'll show you mine if you show me, er, mine
On Thu, 24 Feb 2005, Peter Gutmann wrote: (Either this is a really bad idea or the details have been mangled by the Register). No, it's just a really bad idea. A small group of us looked at this a few weeks ago when it was announced, and while none of us are professional cryptographers, we all thought this was just, well, silly. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0xBD4A95BF Quadriplegics think before they write stupid pointless shit...because they have to type everything with their noses. http://www.tshirthell.com/
Re: I'll show you mine if you show me, er, mine
The description has virtually nothing to do with the actual algorithm proposed. Follow the link in the article - http://www.stealth-attacks.info/ - for an actual - if informal - description. There is no actual description publically available (there are three completely different protocols described in the press). I talked to the author about this; he sent me a fourth, somewhat reasonable document. At *best*, this is something akin to SRP with the server constantly proving its true nature with every character (yes, shoulder surfers get to attack keys one at a time). It could get pretty bad though, so rather than support it or bash it, I'd just reserve judgement until it's publically documented at Financial Crypto. --Dan
Re: I'll show you mine if you show me, er, mine
| Briefly, it works like this: point A transmits an encrypted message to point | B. Point B can decrypt this, if it knows the password. The decrypted text is | then sent back to point A, which can verify the decryption, and confirm that | point B really does know point A's password. Point A then sends the password | to point B to confirm that it really is point A, and knows its own password. | | Isn't this a Crypto 101 mutual authentication mechanism (or at least a | somewhat broken reinvention of such)?... The description has virtually nothing to do with the actual algorithm proposed. Follow the link in the article - http://www.stealth-attacks.info/ - for an actual - if informal - description. -- Jerry
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Thompson, What Am I Going to Do With You?
http://www.techcentralstation.com/022405E.html Tech Central Station Thompson, What Am I Going to Do With You? By Jackson Kuhl Published 02/24/2005 I sat around a lot in airports during the summer of 1998. The previous fall, I had become involved in an internet-related project which had begun in my native state of Connecticut. When the project moved to Houston in the spring, I went with it. For ten weeks I lived in a Holiday Inn across the street from the Johnson Space Center, plunging my air-conditioned rental car 80 miles an hour down heat-blasted six-lane boulevards, racing between air-conditioned hotel room and air-conditioned office. On most Fridays I would fly home to my newlywed wife, then back again Monday morning. The company paid for it all. Sitting at the gates, waiting to board, I read Hunter S. Thompson. Years previous, I had read Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, and, like a lot of people, I had a good laugh and returned it to the bookshelf. Then at some point I picked up a copy of The Proud Highway, the first volume of Thompson's collected letters. I'm not even sure how I came to possess the book or why; but I've always been a fan of writers' correspondence: Raymond Chandler's, Robert E. Howard's, Kerouac's. I probably picked it off a table at Barnes Noble. The Proud Highway spans between 1955 and 1967, beginning with essays Thompson wrote in high school and ending with the denouement of the success of Hell's Angels. It is the unintentional autobiography of a purposeful young man who typed out Hemingway to teach himself the timbre of Papa's punching keys. It was refreshing to read, for once, a cynic who lacked those fingernails down the blackboard, the phony world-weariness affected by every man, woman, and child in modern print. Thompson exuded self-control when clearly surrounded by anything but (the sunglasses were part of that, like a poker player); he seemed to be born a sea captain in a maelstrom. Thompson could always be surprised (two of his last predictions were that Kerry would win the election and the Colts would face the Eagles in the Superbowl -- Lord, how that man could be wrong) but he could deal with it without the Geraldo Rivera bravado that consumes contemporary journalism. It was bracing. Some of Thompson's trials reverberated with my own. Thompson very badly wanted to be a fiction writer, a desire which I believe stuck to his dying day -- even while young he worried that he would be remembered for his nonfiction. In his early twenties, he wrote and submitted short stories to magazines, unsuccessfully. Me too. Thompson was a misanthrope afflicted with the obsessive-compulsion to write, which, after all, is a form of communication, requiring human contact. Me too. He was prone to threatening people with bodily harm. Me too. He was a loyal and honorable friend. I'm a mean-spirited jackass. When I began working on the internet project, I was strictly client-side -- it was glorified technical editing. But as time passed and the more senior consultants dropped away, off to pursue less mind-numbing endeavors, I migrated into server country, through the looking glass into databases and MySQL and security loopholes big enough to drive my Hertz Grand Am through (late one Thursday night, I accidentally deleted half the project and had to have the server administrator restore it from backup tapes). By late August, I was clawing at my throat to escape. The Houstonians looked to me -- me! -- to make things work when they didn't. My career stood like a deep-sea diver on the edge of a continental shelf, a single fin stroke keeping me from being merely out of my depth and ending up alongside a kraken in some sperm whale's belly. If I were to continue any farther, I said to myself sitting in an airport, I needed formal training. I needed to go back to school. But I also knew it was a lost cause. I had no love for computers or networks -- I had gotten into it for the money -- and so I knew I'd never be better than mediocre. Give me time and I would be wiping servers clean across America. Texas and Thompson concocted a martini in my head in the summer of 1998. I bought pepper spray; I wore Army surplus cargo pants with Beatle boots; I inhaled six-packs of Shiner in my hotel room that I kept iced in a trash can while I was at work; I abused rental cars like an escaped felon. And I realized, just as Thompson wrote in 1959, that there were no two ways about it: I am going to be a writer. I'm not even sure that I'm going to be a good one or even a self-supporting one. I had to be a writer, just as a priest is called to his collar, out of sheer necessity: it was the only thing I had aptitude for. Hunter S. Thompson will be remembered for Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. He will be remembered as the sire of gonzo: for the bucket hat and the cigarette holder. I wish it wasn't that way. I wish instead he would be remembered for Hell's Angels, a piece of anthropology
Re: I'll show you mine if you show me, er, mine
Markus Jakobsson is a really smart guy who's done some cool stuff, so I think this is probably better than it sounds in the article. His web site is http://www.informatics.indiana.edu/markus/ but I don't see any papers there that sound like what the article describes. I tried to reverse engineer the protocol from the article, and the results are below. But first let me put this into context. The security property seems to be that you send something to the server, and it sends you back something that proves that it knows your password. But neither a passive eavesdropper nor a MITM can learn anything about your password from observing or influencing the exchange. The best an attacker can do is to try to brute force your password by guessing it repeatedly and trying each guess out at the server. And this can be easily prevented by having the server refuse to answer more than a few bad password attempts. Note that this is different from simple PK based authentication, because the secret is human memorizable. And it's different from, say, having the server respond with a keyed hash of your passphrase, because an eavesdropper could then do an offline brute force search. The key feature is that the only attack is online brute forcing. There are already a lot of protocols in the literature which do this, often performing key agreement at the same time. The original one and most famous was SPEKE. There is a long list of such protocols at http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/1363/passwdPK/submissions.html. I don't know what properties this new protocol has that the old ones don't. Maybe it does have some and I am missing the point. Or there might be some patent issues that it is trying to work around. Anyway, here's my attempt at mimicking the protocol, based on the description of envelopes and carbon paper. You have a password, and so does the site you will login to. (Or, maybe the site has a salted hash of your password; you could use that instead.) You set up a homomorphic encryption system. This is one where you can send an encrypted value to someone else, and he can do certain operations on the encrypted value, like multiplying it by a constant. In this case I think we only need to encrypt the value 1, and let the other guy multiply by his constant, which makes it simpler. I think ElGamal could work: you encrypt 1 as (g^k, y^k), where you'd make up a key y = g^x on the spot. You send this to the other guy who picks a random power j and raises both elements to that power, then multiplies the 2nd one by c: (g^(k*j), y^(k*j) * c), and sends it back to you. This is now a valid ElGamal encryption of c. But an observer can't tell what c is. For a first cut at this protocol, you take each bit of the password (or salted hash) and create two encryptions of m = 1. It would look like this: E(1) E(1) E(1) E(1) E(1) ... E(1) E(1) E(1) E(1) E(1) ... You send all these to the server. The server knows your password (or salted hash) and, for each pair of encrypted values, multiplies the one corresponding to password bit b_i by some constant c_i. The other one of the pair, corresponding to !b_i, it multiplies by a random r_i. The server sets it up so that the sum of all the c_i is zero. Then it sends all of them back to you. If your passphrase started 01101... it would be: E(c_1) E(r_2) E(r_3) E(c_4) E(r_5) ... E(r_1) E(c_2) E(c_3) E(r_4) E(c_5) ... Now, you decrypt just the ones corresponding to the bits b_i and add up the decrypted plaintexts, giving you sum of c_i. If the result is zero, you know the server knew your password (or salted hash). Actually this is not quite right, because the article says that you are not supposed to be able to decrypt both ciphertext values in the pair that corresponds to a password bit. Otherwise an imposter might be able to figure out your passphrase by doing one interaction with the server, then finding an element from each pair such that they all sum to zero. This is kind of knapsacky and it might not be that hard, I'm not sure. So I think what you could do is to send a valid ElGamal encryption of 1, and a bogus value which is not an ElGamal encryption of anything. But the remote party wants to be sure that you can't decrypt them both. One way to achieve this is to arrange that the first members of each pair, g^k in the good encryption, multiply to some fixed value F for which the discrete log is not known. Maybe it's the hash of I don't know if this will work. You can't know the DL of that hash, so you can't find two g^k values which multiply to that hash. That means that if you have a pair of ElGamal ciphertexts which have this property, only one is a real, valid ElGamal ciphertext and so only one is decryptable (I think!). So you would send, in the example above: (g^k0, y^k0)(F/g^k1, junk) (F/g^k2, junk) (g^k3, y^k3) ... (F/g^k0, junk) (g^k1, y^k1)(g^k2, y^k2) (F/g^k3, junk) ... When the server did
I'll show you mine if you show me, er, mine
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/21/crypto_wireless/print.html The Register Biting the hand that feeds IT The Register » Security » Identity » Original URL: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/21/crypto_wireless/ I'll show you mine if you show me, er, mine By Lucy Sherriff (lucy.sherriff at theregister.co.uk) Published Monday 21st February 2005 17:11 GMT Security researchers have developed a new cryptographic technique they say will prevent so-called stealth attacks against networks. A stealth attack is one where the attacker acts remotely, is very hard to trace, and where the victim may not even know he was attacked. The researchers say this kind of attack is particularly easy to mount against a wireless network. The so-called delayed password disclosure protocol was developed by Jakobsson and Steve Myers of Indiana University. The protocol allows two devices or network nodes to identify themselves to each other without ever divulging passwords. The protocol could help secure wireless networks against fraud and identity theft, and protect sensitive user data. The technique will be particularly useful in ad-hoc networks, where two or more devices or network nodes need to verify each others' identity simultaneously. Briefly, it works like this: point A transmits an encrypted message to point B. Point B can decrypt this, if it knows the password. The decrypted text is then sent back to point A, which can verify the decryption, and confirm that point B really does know point A's password. Point A then sends the password to point B to confirm that it really is point A, and knows its own password. The researchers say that this will prevent consumers connecting to fake wireless hubs at airports, or in coffee shops. It could also be used to notify a user about phishing attacks, scam emails that try to trick a user into handing over their account details and passwords to faked sites, provide authentication between two wireless devices, and make it more difficult for criminals to launder money through large numbers of online bank accounts. Jakobsson is hoping to have beta code available for Windows and Mac by the spring, and code for common mobile phone platforms later in 2005. More info available here (http://www.stealth-attacks.info). ® Related stories Hotspot paranoia: try to stay calm (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/24/wi_fi_hotspot_security/) Crypto researchers break SHA-1 (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/17/sha1_hashing_broken/) Cyberpunk authors get the girls (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/17/cyberpunk/) © Copyright 2005 -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA ... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: I'll show you mine if you show me, er, mine
R.A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED] forwarded: Briefly, it works like this: point A transmits an encrypted message to point B. Point B can decrypt this, if it knows the password. The decrypted text is then sent back to point A, which can verify the decryption, and confirm that point B really does know point A's password. Point A then sends the password to point B to confirm that it really is point A, and knows its own password. Isn't this a Crypto 101 mutual authentication mechanism (or at least a somewhat broken reinvention of such)? If the exchange to prove knowledge of the PW has already been performed, why does A need to send the PW to B in the last step? You either use timestamps to prove freshness or add an extra message to exchange a nonce and then there's no need to send the PW. Also in the above B is acting as an oracle for password-guessing attacks, so you don't send back the decrypted text but a recognisable-by-A encrypted response, or garbage if you can't decrypt it, taking care to take the same time whether you get a valid or invalid message to avoid timing attacks. Blah blah Kerberos blah blah done twenty years ago blah blah a'om bomb blah blah. (Either this is a really bad idea or the details have been mangled by the Register). Peter.
Re: I'll show you mine if you show me, er, mine
-- On 24 Feb 2005 at 2:29, Peter Gutmann wrote: Isn't this a Crypto 101 mutual authentication mechanism (or at least a somewhat broken reinvention of such)? If the exchange to prove knowledge of the PW has already been performed, why does A need to send the PW to B in the last step? You either use timestamps to prove freshness or add an extra message to exchange a nonce and then there's no need to send the PW. Also in the above B is acting as an oracle for password-guessing attacks, so you don't send back the decrypted text but a recognisable-by-A encrypted response, or garbage if you can't decrypt it, taking care to take the same time whether you get a valid or invalid message to avoid timing attacks. Blah blah Kerberos blah blah done twenty years ago blah blah a'om bomb blah blah. (Either this is a really bad idea or the details have been mangled by the Register). It is a badly bungled implementation of a really old idea. An idea, which however, was never implemented on a large scale, resulting in the mass use of phishing attacks. Mutual authentication and password management should have been designed into SSH/PKI from the beginning, but instead they designed it to rely wholly on everyone registering themselves with a centralized authority, which of course failed. SSH/PKI is dead in the water, and causing a major crisis on internet transactions. Needs fixing - needs to be fixed by implementing cryptographic procedures that are so old that they are in danger of being forgetten. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG Dn3N69hcbr+mL/HUTw8OhGtKmD9rHYOMN4NTBkIY 47AOCXrb7e35xm5QBsHbFVr/jfm+XwTUvzdiytKpG
Re: I'll show you mine if you show me, er, mine
Markus Jakobsson is a really smart guy who's done some cool stuff, so I think this is probably better than it sounds in the article. His web site is http://www.informatics.indiana.edu/markus/ but I don't see any papers there that sound like what the article describes. I tried to reverse engineer the protocol from the article, and the results are below. But first let me put this into context. The security property seems to be that you send something to the server, and it sends you back something that proves that it knows your password. But neither a passive eavesdropper nor a MITM can learn anything about your password from observing or influencing the exchange. The best an attacker can do is to try to brute force your password by guessing it repeatedly and trying each guess out at the server. And this can be easily prevented by having the server refuse to answer more than a few bad password attempts. Note that this is different from simple PK based authentication, because the secret is human memorizable. And it's different from, say, having the server respond with a keyed hash of your passphrase, because an eavesdropper could then do an offline brute force search. The key feature is that the only attack is online brute forcing. There are already a lot of protocols in the literature which do this, often performing key agreement at the same time. The original one and most famous was SPEKE. There is a long list of such protocols at http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/1363/passwdPK/submissions.html. I don't know what properties this new protocol has that the old ones don't. Maybe it does have some and I am missing the point. Or there might be some patent issues that it is trying to work around. Anyway, here's my attempt at mimicking the protocol, based on the description of envelopes and carbon paper. You have a password, and so does the site you will login to. (Or, maybe the site has a salted hash of your password; you could use that instead.) You set up a homomorphic encryption system. This is one where you can send an encrypted value to someone else, and he can do certain operations on the encrypted value, like multiplying it by a constant. In this case I think we only need to encrypt the value 1, and let the other guy multiply by his constant, which makes it simpler. I think ElGamal could work: you encrypt 1 as (g^k, y^k), where you'd make up a key y = g^x on the spot. You send this to the other guy who picks a random power j and raises both elements to that power, then multiplies the 2nd one by c: (g^(k*j), y^(k*j) * c), and sends it back to you. This is now a valid ElGamal encryption of c. But an observer can't tell what c is. For a first cut at this protocol, you take each bit of the password (or salted hash) and create two encryptions of m = 1. It would look like this: E(1) E(1) E(1) E(1) E(1) ... E(1) E(1) E(1) E(1) E(1) ... You send all these to the server. The server knows your password (or salted hash) and, for each pair of encrypted values, multiplies the one corresponding to password bit b_i by some constant c_i. The other one of the pair, corresponding to !b_i, it multiplies by a random r_i. The server sets it up so that the sum of all the c_i is zero. Then it sends all of them back to you. If your passphrase started 01101... it would be: E(c_1) E(r_2) E(r_3) E(c_4) E(r_5) ... E(r_1) E(c_2) E(c_3) E(r_4) E(c_5) ... Now, you decrypt just the ones corresponding to the bits b_i and add up the decrypted plaintexts, giving you sum of c_i. If the result is zero, you know the server knew your password (or salted hash). Actually this is not quite right, because the article says that you are not supposed to be able to decrypt both ciphertext values in the pair that corresponds to a password bit. Otherwise an imposter might be able to figure out your passphrase by doing one interaction with the server, then finding an element from each pair such that they all sum to zero. This is kind of knapsacky and it might not be that hard, I'm not sure. So I think what you could do is to send a valid ElGamal encryption of 1, and a bogus value which is not an ElGamal encryption of anything. But the remote party wants to be sure that you can't decrypt them both. One way to achieve this is to arrange that the first members of each pair, g^k in the good encryption, multiply to some fixed value F for which the discrete log is not known. Maybe it's the hash of I don't know if this will work. You can't know the DL of that hash, so you can't find two g^k values which multiply to that hash. That means that if you have a pair of ElGamal ciphertexts which have this property, only one is a real, valid ElGamal ciphertext and so only one is decryptable (I think!). So you would send, in the example above: (g^k0, y^k0)(F/g^k1, junk) (F/g^k2, junk) (g^k3, y^k3) ... (F/g^k0, junk) (g^k1, y^k1)(g^k2, y^k2) (F/g^k3, junk) ... When the server did
Re: I'll show you mine if you show me, er, mine
R.A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED] forwarded: Briefly, it works like this: point A transmits an encrypted message to point B. Point B can decrypt this, if it knows the password. The decrypted text is then sent back to point A, which can verify the decryption, and confirm that point B really does know point A's password. Point A then sends the password to point B to confirm that it really is point A, and knows its own password. Isn't this a Crypto 101 mutual authentication mechanism (or at least a somewhat broken reinvention of such)? If the exchange to prove knowledge of the PW has already been performed, why does A need to send the PW to B in the last step? You either use timestamps to prove freshness or add an extra message to exchange a nonce and then there's no need to send the PW. Also in the above B is acting as an oracle for password-guessing attacks, so you don't send back the decrypted text but a recognisable-by-A encrypted response, or garbage if you can't decrypt it, taking care to take the same time whether you get a valid or invalid message to avoid timing attacks. Blah blah Kerberos blah blah done twenty years ago blah blah a'om bomb blah blah. (Either this is a really bad idea or the details have been mangled by the Register). Peter.
I'll show you mine if you show me, er, mine
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/21/crypto_wireless/print.html The Register Biting the hand that feeds IT The Register » Security » Identity » Original URL: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/21/crypto_wireless/ I'll show you mine if you show me, er, mine By Lucy Sherriff (lucy.sherriff at theregister.co.uk) Published Monday 21st February 2005 17:11 GMT Security researchers have developed a new cryptographic technique they say will prevent so-called stealth attacks against networks. A stealth attack is one where the attacker acts remotely, is very hard to trace, and where the victim may not even know he was attacked. The researchers say this kind of attack is particularly easy to mount against a wireless network. The so-called delayed password disclosure protocol was developed by Jakobsson and Steve Myers of Indiana University. The protocol allows two devices or network nodes to identify themselves to each other without ever divulging passwords. The protocol could help secure wireless networks against fraud and identity theft, and protect sensitive user data. The technique will be particularly useful in ad-hoc networks, where two or more devices or network nodes need to verify each others' identity simultaneously. Briefly, it works like this: point A transmits an encrypted message to point B. Point B can decrypt this, if it knows the password. The decrypted text is then sent back to point A, which can verify the decryption, and confirm that point B really does know point A's password. Point A then sends the password to point B to confirm that it really is point A, and knows its own password. The researchers say that this will prevent consumers connecting to fake wireless hubs at airports, or in coffee shops. It could also be used to notify a user about phishing attacks, scam emails that try to trick a user into handing over their account details and passwords to faked sites, provide authentication between two wireless devices, and make it more difficult for criminals to launder money through large numbers of online bank accounts. Jakobsson is hoping to have beta code available for Windows and Mac by the spring, and code for common mobile phone platforms later in 2005. More info available here (http://www.stealth-attacks.info). ® Related stories Hotspot paranoia: try to stay calm (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/24/wi_fi_hotspot_security/) Crypto researchers break SHA-1 (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/17/sha1_hashing_broken/) Cyberpunk authors get the girls (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/17/cyberpunk/) © Copyright 2005 -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA ... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: I'll show you mine if you show me, er, mine
-- On 24 Feb 2005 at 2:29, Peter Gutmann wrote: Isn't this a Crypto 101 mutual authentication mechanism (or at least a somewhat broken reinvention of such)? If the exchange to prove knowledge of the PW has already been performed, why does A need to send the PW to B in the last step? You either use timestamps to prove freshness or add an extra message to exchange a nonce and then there's no need to send the PW. Also in the above B is acting as an oracle for password-guessing attacks, so you don't send back the decrypted text but a recognisable-by-A encrypted response, or garbage if you can't decrypt it, taking care to take the same time whether you get a valid or invalid message to avoid timing attacks. Blah blah Kerberos blah blah done twenty years ago blah blah a'om bomb blah blah. (Either this is a really bad idea or the details have been mangled by the Register). It is a badly bungled implementation of a really old idea. An idea, which however, was never implemented on a large scale, resulting in the mass use of phishing attacks. Mutual authentication and password management should have been designed into SSH/PKI from the beginning, but instead they designed it to rely wholly on everyone registering themselves with a centralized authority, which of course failed. SSH/PKI is dead in the water, and causing a major crisis on internet transactions. Needs fixing - needs to be fixed by implementing cryptographic procedures that are so old that they are in danger of being forgetten. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG Dn3N69hcbr+mL/HUTw8OhGtKmD9rHYOMN4NTBkIY 47AOCXrb7e35xm5QBsHbFVr/jfm+XwTUvzdiytKpG
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FBI Computers: You Don't Have Mail
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6919621/site/newsweek/print/1/displaymode/1098/ MSNBC.com FBI Computers: You Don't Have Mail By Michael Isikoff and Mark Hosenball Newsweek Feb. 14 issue - The FBI's computer woes got even worse last week when bureau officials were forced to shut down a commercial e-mail network used by supervisors, agents and others to communicate with the public. The reason, sources tell NEWSWEEK, was an apparent cyberintrusion by an outside hacker who officials fear had been tapping into supposedly secure e-mail messages since late last year. FBI spokesmen publicly sought to downplay the damage, saying the compromised commercial server-maintained by ATT-was used exclusively for unclassified and nonsensitive communications that did not involve ongoing investigations. One example, they said, was notices from public-affairs offices' fbi.gov addresses to members of the press. But privately, officials were highly concerned-and recently notified the White House. One top FBI official says he regularly used his shut-down fbi.gov e-mail account to send messages to state and local police chiefs. Another source tells news-week that more than 3,000 old and current e-mail accounts were shut down. Others say the same apparently compromised server also provided accounts to other government agencies. Justice Department officials, who launched their own cybercrime investigation into the apparent intrusion, noted that there was no telling the potential damage at this point, given the common tendency for everybody to say too much-including making references to law-enforcement sensitive cases-even in theoretically routine e-mails. This is an eye-opener for all of us, says one FBI official. The bigger question, sources say, was how the hackers penetrated the bureau's e-mails-and why it took the FBI so long to notify the rest of the government. The FBI e-mail system was erected with firewalls that were supposed to prevent even sophisticated hackers from penetrating. But while officials stressed there was no evidence that the apparent intruder or intruders were part of any terrorist or foreign intelligence organization, the authorities were still baffled as to how they got into the system. According to sources familiar with the investigation, one suspicion is that hackers either used sophisticated password cracking software that tries out millions of password combinations or somehow eavesdropped on Internet transmissions. Over the weekend, NEWSWEEK has learned, the Department of Homeland Security posted a computer-security alert to agencies throughout the federal government urging e-mail users to be more careful about choosing their passwords by avoiding obvious clues-like nicknames, initials, children's names, birth dates, pet names or brands of car. Such information can be easily obtained and used to crack your password, the bulletin states. The e-mail compromise couldn't have come at a worse time for the bureau. Just last week, the Justice Department inspector-general released a report sharply criticizing the FBI's management of its new Virtual Case File computer system-a $170 million software upgrade that bureau officials now concede they may have to -scrap. The VCF system was supposed to make it much easier for agents to electronically access vital information relating to ongoing cases in different FBI offices. But the I.G. found that poor planning and ineffective management have resulted in a system that is nearly unworkable. FBI chief Robert Mueller, who sources say has personally briefed President George W. Bush on the matter, took responsibility at least in part for the fiasco before a Senate subcommittee. No one is more frustrated and disappointed than I, he said. -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA ... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The Gmail invite you requested
Thank you for using isnoop.net's Gmail invite spooler. Use the following URL to activate your Gmail account: http://gmail.google.com/gmail/a-ca7d57bba5-811dd7228f-0a9883fc47 If the above URL did not work, please click the following: http://isnoop.net/gmailomatic.php?badinvite=5b500e-4b8c37fa16c2-a16c Now that you've gotten your very own Gmail account, please return the favor by sending invites back to [EMAIL PROTECTED] when you get them. Also, please share the love and send a thank-you email to the person who provided you the invite. This kind person will be added to your gmail address book once you create your account.
Considered UNSOLICITED BULK EMAIL from you
Your message to: - [EMAIL PROTECTED] was considered unsolicited bulk e-mail (UBE). Subject: 12:25:26 Delivery of the email was stopped! Reporting-MTA: dns; ms.maes.tpc.edu.tw Received-From-MTA: smtp; ms.maes.tpc.edu.tw ([127.0.0.1]) Arrival-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:25:38 +0800 (CST) Final-Recipient: rfc822; d82988@ms.maes.tpc.edu.tw Action: failed Status: 5.7.1 Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 5.7.1 Message content rejected, UBE, id=40303-10 Last-Attempt-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:25:43 +0800 (CST) Received: from PC01 (unknown [221.216.106.206]) by ms.maes.tpc.edu.tw (Postfix) with SMTP id 1289680C for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:24:53 +0800 (CST) From: ÍøÕ¾×¢Ò⣡ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: ¸ø¹ºÎïÍøÕ¾´øÀ´×î¶àÉúÒ⣡ 12:25:26 X-Mailer:Foxmail 4.1 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=GB2312 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:25:52 Message-Id: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Do You Own Yourself?
http://www.lawfulpath.com/ref/ownyourself.shtml The Lawful Path Do You Own Yourself? by Butler Shaffer One of my favorite quotations comes from Thomas Pynchon: If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don´t have to worry about answers. Our world is in the mess it is in today because most of us have internalized the fine art of asking the wrong questions. Contrary to the thinking that would have us believe that the conflict, violence, tyranny, and destructiveness that permeates modern society is the result of bad or hateful people, disparities in wealth, or lack of education, all of our social problems are the direct consequence of a general failure to respect the inviolability of one another´s property interests! I begin my Property classes with the question: do you own yourself? Most of my students eagerly nod their heads in the affirmative, until I warn them that, by the time we finish examining this question at the end of the year, they will find their answer most troubling, whatever it may be today. If you do own yourself, then why do you allow the state to control your life and other property interests? And if you answer that you do not own yourself, then what possible objection can you raise to anything that the state may do to you? We then proceed to an examination of the case of Dred Scott v. Sandford. The question of whether Dred Scott was a self-owning individual, or the property of another, is the same question at the core of the debate on abortion. Is the fetus a self-owning person, or an extension of the property boundaries of the mother? The same property analysis can be used to distinguish victimizing from victimless crimes: murder, rape, arson, burglary, battery, theft, and the like, are victimizing crimes because someone´s property boundaries were violated. In a victimless crime, by contrast, no trespass to a property interest occurs. If one pursues the substance of the issues that make up political and legal debates today, one always finds a property question at stake: is person x entitled to make decisions over what is his, or will the state restrain his decision-making in some way? Regulating what people can and cannot put into their bodies, or how they are to conduct their business or social activities, or how they are to educate their children, are all centered around property questions. Property is not simply some social invention, like Emily Post´s guide to etiquette, but a way of describing conditions that are essential to all living things. Every living thing must occupy space and consume energy from outside itself if it is to survive, and it must do so to the exclusion of all other living things on the planet. I didn´t dream this up. My thinking was not consulted before the life system developed. The world was operating on the property principle when I arrived and, like the rest of us, I had to work out my answers to that most fundamental, pragmatic of all social questions: who gets to make decisions about what? The essence of ownership is to be found in control: who gets to be the ultimate decision maker about people and things in the world? Observe the rest of nature: trees, birds, fish, plants, other mammals, bacteria, all stake out claims to space and sources of energy in the world, and will defend such claims against intruders, particularly members of their own species. This is not because they are mean-spirited or uncooperative: quite the contrary, many of us have discovered that cooperation is a great way of increasing the availability of the energy we need to live well. We have found out that, if we will respect the property claims of one another and work together, each of us can enjoy more property in our lives than if we try to function independently of one another. Such a discovery has permitted us to create economic systems. There is no way that I could have produced, by myself, the computer upon which I am writing this article. Had I devoted my entire life to the undertaking, I would have been unable even to have conceived of its technology. Many other men and women, equally unable to have undertaken the task by themselves, cooperated without even knowing one another in its creation. Lest you think that my writing would have to have been accomplished through the use of a pencil, think again: I would also have been unable to produce a pencil on my own, as Leonard Read once illustrated in a wonderful, brief essay. Such cooperative undertakings have been possible because of a truth acknowledged by students of marketplace economic systems, particularly the Austrians about human nature: each of us acts only in anticipation of being better off afterwards as a result of our actions. Toward whatever ends we choose to act, and such ends are constantly rearranging their priorities within us, their satisfaction is always expressed in terms inextricably tied to decision making over something one owns (or seeks to own). Whether I wish
VIRUS (Worm.SomeFool.Gen-1) IN MAIL FROM YOU
VIRUS ALERT Our content checker found virus: Worm.SomeFool.Gen-1 in email presumably from you (cypherpunks@minder.net), to the following recipient: - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please check your system for viruses, or ask your system administrator to do so. Delivery of the email was stopped! For your reference, here are headers from your email: - BEGIN HEADERS - Return-Path: cypherpunks@minder.net Received: from adfc.de (p508ABF6B.dip.t-dialin.net [80.138.191.107]) by mail2.srv.syswebcom.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB4E82FEC27 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 19:06:51 +0100 (CET) From: cypherpunks@minder.net To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Your picture Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 19:07:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary==_NextPart_000_0005_622B.4C04 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Message-Id: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- END HEADERS -- Reporting-MTA: dns; mail2 Received-From-MTA: smtp; mail2.srv.syswebcom.net ([127.0.0.1]) Arrival-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 19:06:56 +0100 (CET) Final-Recipient: rfc822; bettundbike@dachgeber.de Action: failed Status: 5.7.1 Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 5.7.1 Message content rejected, id=25733-09 - VIRUS: Worm.SomeFool.Gen-1 Last-Attempt-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 19:06:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from adfc.de (p508ABF6B.dip.t-dialin.net [80.138.191.107]) by mail2.srv.syswebcom.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB4E82FEC27 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 19:06:51 +0100 (CET) From: cypherpunks@minder.net To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Your picture Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 19:07:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary==_NextPart_000_0005_622B.4C04 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Message-Id: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tasers for Cops Not You
At 01:20 PM 1/8/05 -0800, John Young wrote: However, Taser claims the civilian version is effective only to 15 feet while the LE version will explose a heart at 20 feet. And, Taser says accidental deaths caused by the shock would have happened to those sick persons anyway. Well, yes, homicidal cops say the perps were begging for it, learning such talk from the president and up to the one who has fun with joy toy tsunamis. John: A taser is 50 KV and microamps. Not fun but it doesn't cause fibrillation. (Incoherent cardiac muscle contraction - no pulse.) I now work for a company that makes defibrillators. It takes a few 10s of Joules through the heart to fibrillate, typically 100-200 J for an adult, during a certain critical window during the sinus rhythm. Our gizmos discharge ~200 uF at up to 2 KV to defibrillate a fibrillating heart, which will also fibrillate if administered to a healthy heart at the wrong time, as I said. That's up to 40 amps. (Through the pads a chest is 20-200 ohms, typically 50.) Without a defibrillator the person is dead, CPR or not. That's the science. As far as pigs wanting slaves/peasants/citizens to be unarmed, well, agree. As far as choke holds on negroes, excessive force on cocaine-stimulated citizens, etc goes, I have nothing to bear on this. As far as banning lethal and nonlethal weapons for use by all but state minions, we agree. When tasers, mace, body armor, .50 cal or lesser rifles are outlawed, well, you know the rest. (Of course mace is best applied with q-tips to the eyes of sitting protesters. And the mercenaries in Iraq do fine with pillowcases and 12V batteries.) Though heavens fall, let justice be done.
Re: Tasers for Cops Not You
At 01:20 PM 1/8/05 -0800, John Young wrote: However, Taser claims the civilian version is effective only to 15 feet while the LE version will explose a heart at 20 feet. And, Taser says accidental deaths caused by the shock would have happened to those sick persons anyway. Well, yes, homicidal cops say the perps were begging for it, learning such talk from the president and up to the one who has fun with joy toy tsunamis. John: A taser is 50 KV and microamps. Not fun but it doesn't cause fibrillation. (Incoherent cardiac muscle contraction - no pulse.) I now work for a company that makes defibrillators. It takes a few 10s of Joules through the heart to fibrillate, typically 100-200 J for an adult, during a certain critical window during the sinus rhythm. Our gizmos discharge ~200 uF at up to 2 KV to defibrillate a fibrillating heart, which will also fibrillate if administered to a healthy heart at the wrong time, as I said. That's up to 40 amps. (Through the pads a chest is 20-200 ohms, typically 50.) Without a defibrillator the person is dead, CPR or not. That's the science. As far as pigs wanting slaves/peasants/citizens to be unarmed, well, agree. As far as choke holds on negroes, excessive force on cocaine-stimulated citizens, etc goes, I have nothing to bear on this. As far as banning lethal and nonlethal weapons for use by all but state minions, we agree. When tasers, mace, body armor, .50 cal or lesser rifles are outlawed, well, you know the rest. (Of course mace is best applied with q-tips to the eyes of sitting protesters. And the mercenaries in Iraq do fine with pillowcases and 12V batteries.) Though heavens fall, let justice be done.
Re: Tasers for Cops Not You
On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 03:55:33PM -0600, Shawn K. Quinn wrote: On Sat, 2005-01-08 at 13:20 -0800, John Young wrote: Here are photos of the Taser in manufacture, sale, training, promo, and accidental misfire: http://cryptome.org/taser-eyeball.htm This came up 404 as of a few minutes ago. The correct URL is http://cryptome.org/taser/taser-eyeball.htm -- Shawn K. Quinn [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a __ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net pgpuENujJEqPh.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Tasers for Cops Not You
On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 03:55:33PM -0600, Shawn K. Quinn wrote: On Sat, 2005-01-08 at 13:20 -0800, John Young wrote: Here are photos of the Taser in manufacture, sale, training, promo, and accidental misfire: http://cryptome.org/taser-eyeball.htm This came up 404 as of a few minutes ago. The correct URL is http://cryptome.org/taser/taser-eyeball.htm -- Shawn K. Quinn [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a __ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net pgpASVOW0y4Cb.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Tasers for Cops Not You
On Sat, 2005-01-08 at 13:20 -0800, John Young wrote: Here are photos of the Taser in manufacture, sale, training, promo, and accidental misfire: http://cryptome.org/taser-eyeball.htm This came up 404 as of a few minutes ago. -- Shawn K. Quinn [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tasers for Cops Not You
NY Times reports today that SEC is investigating Taser for possible financial irregularity: as last day of business for 2004 racked up a $700,000 sale to an AZ gun shop which brags it sells to civilians, but only a few so far. And that the AZ AG is informally looking at sale of the stun guns to civilians, with cops protesting civilian access to the neatest cop joy toy. However, Taser claims the civilian version is effective only to 15 feet while the LE version will explose a heart at 20 feet. And, Taser says accidental deaths caused by the shock would have happened to those sick persons anyway. Well, yes, homicidal cops say the perps were begging for it, learning such talk from the president and up to the one who has fun with joy toy tsunamis. Exculpation, says the king, is divine, and my Taser shocks shit further than yours. Here are photos of the Taser in manufacture, sale, training, promo, and accidental misfire: http://cryptome.org/taser-eyeball.htm
Tasers for Cops Not You
NY Times reports today that SEC is investigating Taser for possible financial irregularity: as last day of business for 2004 racked up a $700,000 sale to an AZ gun shop which brags it sells to civilians, but only a few so far. And that the AZ AG is informally looking at sale of the stun guns to civilians, with cops protesting civilian access to the neatest cop joy toy. However, Taser claims the civilian version is effective only to 15 feet while the LE version will explose a heart at 20 feet. And, Taser says accidental deaths caused by the shock would have happened to those sick persons anyway. Well, yes, homicidal cops say the perps were begging for it, learning such talk from the president and up to the one who has fun with joy toy tsunamis. Exculpation, says the king, is divine, and my Taser shocks shit further than yours. Here are photos of the Taser in manufacture, sale, training, promo, and accidental misfire: http://cryptome.org/taser-eyeball.htm
Re: Tasers for Cops Not You
On Sat, 2005-01-08 at 13:20 -0800, John Young wrote: Here are photos of the Taser in manufacture, sale, training, promo, and accidental misfire: http://cryptome.org/taser-eyeball.htm This came up 404 as of a few minutes ago. -- Shawn K. Quinn [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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