RE: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [Politech] Montana Supreme Court justice warns Orwell's 1984 has arrived [priv]]
At 10:39 AM 8/23/2005, Trei, Peter wrote: Tyler Durden writes: > Yes, but the old question needs to be asked: How much of this > crime would go away if crystal meth were legal? Actually, if we ever managed to kill the culture of prohibition, I suspect that crystal meth would be about as popular is bathtub gin is today. It's terrible stuff. Meth is not fundamentally that different from Sudafed, and the nasty chemical processes of extracting the sugar coating and filler material and moving around a couple of methyl and hydroxy groups and disposing of the bodies of the people you thought were ratting you out to the police and the space alien biker gangs could all be avoided if you could make it legally at a big pharma company. Before the War on Drugs started helping us by making Sudafed hard to get, the generic pills tended to be on sale for about ten cents per 30mg dose. If I'm reading Erowid correctly, and guessing the kinds of quantities a tweaker might use if it were readily available and nearly free, a buck or two a day would cover all the meth you could use, and you could easily make that much at a minimum-wage job in the extra hours you've got that you used to waste sleeping, and you wouldn't have to resort to crime unless it seemed like more fun. Also, you could use somewhat calmer amphetamine relatives instead of meth; can't be *that* much nastier than tobacco, and much of the cost of legal pharmaceutical amphetamines today is the DEA paperwork. Opiates are another drug for which crime would be unnecessary if the stuff were legal. The last time I got codeine for dental work, I think I spent about $5 for 20-30 pills. That's enough for a day of Rush-Limbaugh-quantity abuse, and enough for a couple of days' worth of withdrawal-prevention for an average addict, and stronger opiates are similar in cost; opiate addiction doesn't need to be as expensive as tobacco addiction. By the way, if you've watched the TV medical drama "House", the star is an acerbic doctor who's addicted to Vicodin, as an after-effect of leg injury, and it's interesting to see the wall of political correctness cracking a bit.
RE: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [Politech] Montana Supreme Court justice warns Orwell's 1984 has arrived [priv]]
Supposedly, the tobacco companies have had commercial marijuana products ready forever (I've even seen photos, but I always suspected they were doctored up stoner's dreams). The idea that the pharmaceutical companies would start actively researching new designer drugs is fascinating and scary...wait, scratch that "scary", because it can't be scarier than drug-related crime in the US. The New York Times Magazine had a fascinating story years back on the US's marijuana industry. it's apparently the #2 export crop and US pot technology is in some cases extremely, uh, high. They described growers with strings of apartments in various US states connected with sesnors to the internet. If any of the apartments showed signs of entry, the grower would never return. (Each apartment supposedly had low levels of crops to fly under certain state laws if they were ever caught.) No doubt some of those growers are good customers of RSA products! -TD From: "Trei, Peter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Tyler Durden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, , <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [Politech] Montana Supreme Court justice warns Orwell's 1984 has arrived [priv]] Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:39:17 -0400 Tyler Durden writes: > Yes, but the old question needs to be asked: How much of this > crime would go away if crystal meth were legal? Actually, if we ever managed to kill the culture of prohibition, I suspect that crystal meth would be about as popular is bathtub gin is today. It's terrible stuff. I'd expect the big pharmas to start 'recreational drug' wings, which would bring real research power to the problem of finding highs which are fun, safe, affordable, and with minimal physical addiction. "I need a new drug..." Peter Trei
Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [Politech] Montana Supreme Court justice warns Orwell's 1984 has arrived [priv]]
Coderman wrote... the state of oregon just passed a law (yet to be put into effect) that requires a prescription from a doctor for all sudafed (pseudo ephedrine) purchases. the problem isn't drug addicts killing themselves with corrosive fluids, as this would be a problem that solves itself in short order, but rather that meth heads are idiotic crime machines. i've had numerous friends and acquaintances affected by this (vehicles stolen or broken into, property damaged and/or stolen, tweakers robbing at knife point, etc, etc) and it's getting ridiculous*. Yes, but the old question needs to be asked: How much of this crime would go away if crystal meth were legal? There's little doubt that the vast majority of drug-related crime stems not from some crazed crime spree but from issues relating to supply and demand. Legalizing drug XYZ no doubt drops the cost. Then again, if we legalized a lot of drugs then what would all those corrections officers do for a living? Become airport security experts no doubt. -TD
Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [Politech] Montana Supreme Court justice warns Orwell's 1984 has arrived [priv]]
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005, Tyler Durden wrote: > Yes, but the old question needs to be asked: How much of this crime would go > away if crystal meth were legal? There's little doubt that the vast majority > of drug-related crime stems not from some crazed crime spree but from issues > relating to supply and demand. Legalizing drug XYZ no doubt drops the cost. Lets not forget the lessons of the NYC Methadone "Maintenance" Programs either. While heroin results in crime due to high cost (by virtue of illegalization), the legal version also creates crime due to it's high cost. The MMPs have the same "Money or else" position that the junkie faces on the street, and while the prices are certainly lower, they are NOT "low". In 1983 a junkie expected to pay $40-$80 per *day* for maintenance (I'm sure it's a lot higher today). Along with legalization must come the removal of monopoly practices such a single sourcing of the drug and prescriptions to dispense. Only then does the free market take over and keep the price, and the crime, low. > Then again, if we legalized a lot of drugs then what would all those > corrections officers do for a living? Become airport security experts no > doubt. Move Stars. Presidents. McBodies... > -TD -- Yours, J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0xBD4A95BF I like the idea of belief in drug-prohibition as a religion in that it is a strongly held belief based on grossly insufficient evidence and bolstered by faith born of intuitions flowing from the very beliefs they are intended to support. don zweig, M.D.
Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [Politech] Montana Supreme Court justice warns Orwell's 1984 has arrived [priv]]
On 8/21/05, Tyler Durden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > ... > As for crystal meth, I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but if I want > to pour something from my chemistry set down my throat that shouldn't be > anybody's business. The fact that it doesn't accidentally kill me and indeed > gives me a buzz shouldn't be the sole provence of the pharmaceutical > companies. After that, if you want to make laws about selling the stuff well > that's a different matter. the state of oregon just passed a law (yet to be put into effect) that requires a prescription from a doctor for all sudafed (pseudo ephedrine) purchases. the problem isn't drug addicts killing themselves with corrosive fluids, as this would be a problem that solves itself in short order, but rather that meth heads are idiotic crime machines. i've had numerous friends and acquaintances affected by this (vehicles stolen or broken into, property damaged and/or stolen, tweakers robbing at knife point, etc, etc) and it's getting ridiculous*. big brother isn't the answer, but when you get a lot of pissed off citizens and overwhelmed police involved the solutions they settle for are going to be ugly and invasive. what a fucking mess... * last week a tweaker out of jail for only a few weeks went around to our hay growers neighbors and stole all sorts of random crap from homes up and down the road he lived on. everything from elk antlers to hand made arrows for bow hunting, power tools loaded into a wheel barrow, the most random crap. the only reason he didn't hit our hay grower was that last time he stole from them they went to his parents house and told him "the next time your son steals from my home you'll be attending a funeral". now that's closer to an effective solution. :)
Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [Politech] Montana Supreme Court justice warns Orwell's 1984 has arrived [priv]]
On 8/23/05, J.A. Terranson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, 23 Aug 2005, Tyler Durden wrote: > > Yes, but the old question needs to be asked: How much of this crime would go > > away if crystal meth were legal? agreed; though i'd rather see them taking something less neurotoxic, like dex or racemic amphetamine. > Lets not forget the lessons of the NYC Methadone "Maintenance" Programs > either... Along with legalization > must come the removal of monopoly practices such a single sourcing of the > drug and prescriptions to dispense. Only then does the free market take > over and keep the price, and the crime, low. fortunately stimulants are some of the cheapest drugs to produce minus all the regulatory overhead. > I like the idea of belief in drug-prohibition as a religion in that it is > a strongly held belief based on grossly insufficient evidence and > bolstered by faith born of intuitions flowing from the very beliefs they > are intended to support. > > don zweig, M.D. i'm saving this quote :)
RE: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [Politech] Montana Supreme Court justice warns Orwell's 1984 has arrived [priv]]
Tyler Durden writes: > Yes, but the old question needs to be asked: How much of this > crime would go away if crystal meth were legal? Actually, if we ever managed to kill the culture of prohibition, I suspect that crystal meth would be about as popular is bathtub gin is today. It's terrible stuff. I'd expect the big pharmas to start 'recreational drug' wings, which would bring real research power to the problem of finding highs which are fun, safe, affordable, and with minimal physical addiction. "I need a new drug..." Peter Trei
RE: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [Politech] Montana Supreme Court justice warns Orwell's 1984 has arrived [priv]]
Holy Fuck we need some smarter people in this society. OK, you threw away your trash. I see no inherent reason why someone else can't grab it. But INFORMATION about you isn't trash. Then again, you do "throw away" the photons that exit through your windows, so I guess cops should be able to stare at you through binoculars all the time and haul you in based on the photons you've thrown away. Oh, and to take it further, police should have immediate, un-warranted access to the "trashcan" on your computer, at all times. Indeed, there should be a registry that constantly monitors what you're throwing away, because it's just (digital) trash, right? As for crystal meth, I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but if I want to pour something from my chemistry set down my throat that shouldn't be anybody's business. The fact that it doesn't accidentally kill me and indeed gives me a buzz shouldn't be the sole provence of the pharmaceutical companies. After that, if you want to make laws about selling the stuff well that's a different matter. -TD From: Eugen Leitl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [Politech] Montana Supreme Court justice warns Orwell's 1984 has arrived [priv]] Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:55:41 +0200 - Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - From: Declan McCullagh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 12:20:34 -0700 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Politech] Montana Supreme Court justice warns Orwell's 1984 has arrived [priv] User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Macintosh/20050317) http://news.com.com/2061-10796_3-5820618.html Montana Supreme Court justice warns Orwell's 1984 has arrived August 5, 2005 12:13 PM PDT Believe it or not, it's perfectly legal for police to rummage through your garbage for incriminating stuff on you -- even if they don't have a warrant or court approval. The Supreme Court of Montana ruled last month that police could conduct a warrantless "trash dive" into the trash cans in the alley behind the home of a man named Darrell Pelvit. The cops discovered pseudoephedrine boxes -- a solvent with uses including the manufacture of methamphetamine -- and Pelvit eventually ended up in prison. Pelvit's attorney argued that his client had a reasonable expectation of privacy in his trash, but the court rejected the argument and said the trash was, well, meant to be thrown away. What's remarkable is the concurring opinion of Montana Supreme Court Justice James C. Nelson, who reluctantly went along with his colleagues but warned that George Orwell's 1984 had arrived. We reproduce his concurring opinion in full: -Declan -- Justice James C. Nelson concurs. I have signed our Opinion because we have correctly applied existing legal theory and constitutional jurisprudence to resolve this case on its facts. I feel the pain of conflict, however. I fear that, eventually, we are all going to become collateral damage in the war on drugs, or terrorism, or whatever war is in vogue at the moment. I retain an abiding concern that our Declaration of Rights not be killed by friendly fire. And, in this day and age, the courts are the last, if not only, bulwark to prevent that from happening. In truth, though, we area throw-away society. My garbage can contains the remains of what I eat and drink. It may contain discarded credit card receipts along with yesterday's newspaper and junk mail. It might hold some personal letters, bills, receipts, vouchers, medical records, photographs and stuff that is imprinted with the multitude of assigned numbers that allow me access to the global economy and vice versa. My garbage can contains my DNA. As our Opinion states, what we voluntarily throw away, what we discard--i.e., what we abandon--is fair game for roving animals, scavengers, busybodies, crooks and for those seeking evidence of criminal enterprise. Yet, as I expect with most people, when I take the day's trash (neatly packaged in opaque plastic bags) to the garbage can each night, I give little consideration to what I am throwing away and less thought, still, to what might become of my refuse. I don't necessarily envision that someone or something is going to paw through it looking for a morsel of food, a discarded treasure, a stealable part of my identity or a piece of evidence. But, I've seen that happen enough times to understand--though not graciously accept--that there is nothing sacred in whatever privacy interest I think I have retained in my trash once it leaves my control--the Fourth Amendment and Article II, Sections 10 and 11, notwithstanding. Like it or not, I live in a society that accepts virtual strip searches at airports; surveillance cameras; "discount" cards that record my buying habi
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: [Politech] Montana Supreme Court justice warns Orwell's 1984 has arrived [priv]]
- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - From: Declan McCullagh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 12:20:34 -0700 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Politech] Montana Supreme Court justice warns Orwell's 1984 has arrived [priv] User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Macintosh/20050317) http://news.com.com/2061-10796_3-5820618.html Montana Supreme Court justice warns Orwell's 1984 has arrived August 5, 2005 12:13 PM PDT Believe it or not, it's perfectly legal for police to rummage through your garbage for incriminating stuff on you -- even if they don't have a warrant or court approval. The Supreme Court of Montana ruled last month that police could conduct a warrantless "trash dive" into the trash cans in the alley behind the home of a man named Darrell Pelvit. The cops discovered pseudoephedrine boxes -- a solvent with uses including the manufacture of methamphetamine -- and Pelvit eventually ended up in prison. Pelvit's attorney argued that his client had a reasonable expectation of privacy in his trash, but the court rejected the argument and said the trash was, well, meant to be thrown away. What's remarkable is the concurring opinion of Montana Supreme Court Justice James C. Nelson, who reluctantly went along with his colleagues but warned that George Orwell's 1984 had arrived. We reproduce his concurring opinion in full: -Declan -- Justice James C. Nelson concurs. I have signed our Opinion because we have correctly applied existing legal theory and constitutional jurisprudence to resolve this case on its facts. I feel the pain of conflict, however. I fear that, eventually, we are all going to become collateral damage in the war on drugs, or terrorism, or whatever war is in vogue at the moment. I retain an abiding concern that our Declaration of Rights not be killed by friendly fire. And, in this day and age, the courts are the last, if not only, bulwark to prevent that from happening. In truth, though, we area throw-away society. My garbage can contains the remains of what I eat and drink. It may contain discarded credit card receipts along with yesterday's newspaper and junk mail. It might hold some personal letters, bills, receipts, vouchers, medical records, photographs and stuff that is imprinted with the multitude of assigned numbers that allow me access to the global economy and vice versa. My garbage can contains my DNA. As our Opinion states, what we voluntarily throw away, what we discard--i.e., what we abandon--is fair game for roving animals, scavengers, busybodies, crooks and for those seeking evidence of criminal enterprise. Yet, as I expect with most people, when I take the day's trash (neatly packaged in opaque plastic bags) to the garbage can each night, I give little consideration to what I am throwing away and less thought, still, to what might become of my refuse. I don't necessarily envision that someone or something is going to paw through it looking for a morsel of food, a discarded treasure, a stealable part of my identity or a piece of evidence. But, I've seen that happen enough times to understand--though not graciously accept--that there is nothing sacred in whatever privacy interest I think I have retained in my trash once it leaves my control--the Fourth Amendment and Article II, Sections 10 and 11, notwithstanding. Like it or not, I live in a society that accepts virtual strip searches at airports; surveillance cameras; "discount" cards that record my buying habits; bar codes; "cookies" and spywear on my computer; on-line access to satellite technology that can image my back yard; and microchip radio frequency identification devices already implanted in the family dog and soon to be integrated into my groceries, my credit cards, my cash and my new underwear. I know that the notes from the visit to my doctor's office may be transcribed in some overseas country under an out-sourcing contract by a person who couldn't care less about my privacy. I know that there are all sorts of businesses that have records of what medications I take and why. I know that information taken from my blood sample may wind up in databases and be put to uses that the boilerplate on the sheaf of papers I sign to get medical treatment doesn't even begin to disclose. I know that my insurance companies and employer know more about me than does my mother. I know that many aspects of my life are available on the Internet. Even a black box in my car--or event data recorder as they are called--is ready and willing to spill the beans on my driving habits, if I have an event--and I really trusted that car, too. And, I also know that my most unwelcome and paternalistic relative, Uncle Sam, is with me from womb to tomb. Fueled by the paranoia of "ists" and
#331: 05-14-04 DEPARTMENTS OF JUSTICE, HOMELAND SECURITY ANNOUNCE CHILD PORNOGRAPHY FILE-SHARING CRACKDOWN
<http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2004/May/04_crm_331.htm> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE FRIDAY, MAY 14, 2004 WWW.USDOJ.GOV CRM (202) 514-2008 TDD (202) 514-1888 DEPARTMENTS OF JUSTICE, HOMELAND SECURITY ANNOUNCE CHILD PORNOGRAPHY FILE-SHARING CRACKDOWN Law Enforcement Initiative Targets Child Pornography Over Peer-To-Peer Networks WASHINGTON, D.C. - The Department of Justice, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Department of Homeland Securityís U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and the Internet Crimes Against Children (ICAC) Task Forces today announced a national law enforcement initiative aimed at combating the growing volume of illegal child pornography distributed through peer-to-peer (P2P) file trafficking computer networks. Attorney General John Ashcroft, Assistant Attorneys General Christopher A. Wray of the Criminal Division and Deborah Daniels of the Office of Justice Programs, Department of Homeland Security Assistant Secretary for Immigration and Customs Enforcement Michael J. Garcia, FBI Deputy Assistant Director Keith Lourdeau, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention Administrator J. Robert Flores and Sgt. Scott Christensen of the Nebraska State Patrol announced the initiative at a news conference this afternoon in Washington. The law enforcement operation, which began in the Fall of 2003, has already resulted in the execution of hundreds of searches nationwide, and the identification of thousands of suspect computers used to access the child pornography. The FBI, ICE and the ICACs have opened more than 1,000 domestic investigations into the distribution and possession of child pornography and conducted more than 350 searches. More than 65 individuals have been arrested and charged with crimes to date as a result of this law enforcement effort, with coordination by the Child Exploitation and Obscenity Section of the Criminal Division at the Department of Justice and U.S. Attorneysí Offices across the country. These cases have charged not only offenses related to the possession and distribution of child pornography, but also sexual abuse of children. Further, the investigations have identified several individuals who have previously been convicted of sex offenses and several registered sex offenders. ìNo one should be able to avoid prosecution for contributing to the abuse and exploitation of the nationís children,î said Attorney General Ashcroft. ìThe Department of Justice stands side-by-side with our partners in the law enforcement community to pursue those who victimize our children under the perceived, but false, cloak of anonymity that the peer-to-peer networks provide.î ìThis aggressive, multi-jurisdictional enforcement action will help bring justice to those who exploit our children,î said Assistant Attorney General Wray. ìThis is an impressive demonstration of how law enforcement can effectively address the problem of technology being used to commit illicit and abhorrent crimes against children.î ìThe men and women of state and local law enforcement who comprise the 39 Internet Crimes Against Children task forces are to be commended for their efforts that have resulted in over 50 arrests nationwide,î said Deborah Daniels, Assistant Attorney General for the Office of Justice Programs. ìThe unprecedented cooperation of law enforcement to track the sale and trade of child pornography over the Internet has made this country a safer place for our children.î ìTodayís announcement sends a clear message that the digital environment will not offer sanctity to those pedophiles who lurk in peer-to-peer networks. We will identify you. We will pursue you. We will bring you to justice,î said FBI Director Robert Mueller. ìTodayís announcement also raises public awareness to the inherent risks associated with file-sharing networks. Parents must know that access to these networks is free and exposure to child pornography is often a frightening reality.î ìICE will use its technical expertise and its legal authorities to target those who would purchase child pornography over the internet or trade in those despicable images," said Michael J. Garcia, Department of Homeland Security Assistant Secretary for Immigration and Customs Enforcement. ìBy partnering with our colleagues at the Department of Justice and in local and state law enforcement, we will uncover these transactions and bring the offenders out of the anonymity of cyberspace and into a court of law.î ìAs individuals we have a responsibility to provide love and guidance to our children; as a society, we have a collective duty to defend our children from predators who would stalk them,î said J. Robert Flores, Administrator for the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention. ìThe Internet Crimes Against Children task forces were developed to prevent child abuse and punish abusers and this joint effort between local and federal law enforcement will send a strong message to thos
Justice
On Nov 19, 2003, at 6:37 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote: On Wed, Nov 19, 2003 at 05:31:24PM -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: Show off. ;-) Yeah, I need to find a better way to strip those internal links when forwarding. -Declan I assumed it was "stego in long URLs," a staple of the Resistance. (More comments elided because of the culture, now consumed in eulogies of a guy who really, really needed to be whacked in 1963. A real pity that other deserving dictators have been too well-protected in the decades since. Precisely why freedom fighters are so interested in Sarin and nukes...the only real way to reach the guilty.) END TRANSMISSION...LINE DEAD
Re: Wisdom, courage, justice, and temperance.
On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, Matthew X wrote: > Too much egg-nog? Try... > Stoicism > From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. > Stoicism is a school of philosophy commonly associated with such > philosophers as Cicero, Seneca, Marcus Aurelius, and Epictetus. > Organized at Athens in the third century B.C.E. (310 BC) by Zeno of Citium > and Chrysippus. The Stoics provided a unified account of the world that > comprised formal logic, materialistic physics, and naturalistic ethics. > Later Roman Stoics emphasized more exclusively the development of > recommendations for living in harmony with a natural world over which one > has no direct control. So much for Coase's Theorem... > Living according to nature or reason, they held, is living in conformity > with the divine order of the universe. The four cardinal virtues of the > Stoic philosophy are wisdom, courage, justice, and temperance, a > classification derived from the teachings of Plato. Do much for 'greed is good'. -- We are all interested in the future for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives. Criswell, "Plan 9 from Outer Space" [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com www.open-forge.org
"Justice is more powerful than therapy" -ex Scientologist
Lawrence Wollersheim was awarded millions of dollars, but he plans to keep living as a nomad in a solar-powered RV, connected to the world by a cellular phone with a secret number. The ex-Scientologist came by his money in a unique fashion too: He won a grueling 22-year court battle against the Church of Scientology of California that went to the U.S. Supreme Court. Wollersheim said the church pushed him to the brink of suicide, brought on bipolar disorder and drove his business into bankruptcy. A Los Angeles jury agreed. On May 9, the church deposited $8.67 million with the Los Angeles Superior Court, marking the only time in two decades, church officials say, that Scientology has lost a lawsuit and been forced to pay a former member, or as church officials call him, an apostate. Now, Wollersheim said, he won't "have to worry about having a job ever again." But the 53-year-old, who has spent his entire adult life in Scientology or fighting it, said he is not going to relax in his newfound security. He'd like nothing better, he said. It's just that his quest for justice may compel him to wage more battles and file more lawsuits. He is encouraging other ex-members to file their own suits and plans to stay involved in Factnet, the anti-Scientology, anti-cult Web site he co-founded. "Justice is more powerful than therapy," Wollersheim said. "If it takes another 22 years, I'll stay with it. I'm standing up straight and tall and looking them in the eye, and they're not pushing me anymore." http://www.latimes.com/editions/orange/la-35921may21.story?coll=la%2Deditions%2Dorange (access using joecypherpunk2/writecode if necessary)
