Re: Berachos 007: Tosfos on Avraham Avinu
x-mailing-list: daf-disc...@shemayisrael.com(Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.) _ THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld d...@dafyomi.co.il [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] Re: Berachos 007: Tosfos on Avraham Avinu Betzalel Gersten asked: Why does Tosfos try to prove that after the battle of the four kings Avraham is 73. We know that Avraham entered Eretz Canaan by Lech Lecha at 75 as the Pasuk is explicit (Beraishis 12:4) and Lot is with him at that time (important for later). If we just follow everything chronologically, Avraham is still older in Beraishis 15:2 (75+) then he is in Beraishis 15:8 (70 years old). By explaining this the way Tosfos (and first Rashi on Shabbos 12a) explain it creates a whole new problem. How is it that the death of Kdarla'omer, the capture and saving of Lot, and the capture and return of all of his Rechush (14:16) the mention of Aner, Ashkol Mamre (14:13,24), as well as a Pasuk that says that Avraham lived in Elonei Mamre(14:13) -- how could all this happen before Lech Lecha and when Avraham and Lot subsequently went down to Mitzrayim and subsequently came up with wealth which subsequently caused disputes between their shepherds and sent Lot to Sdom. Wasn't he captured logically after that point when Avraham is 75+. What is forcing Tosfos and Rashi to make the break of the 52 years of Sdom down the middle to put Beraishis 15:1 when Avraham is 73. Why do the 26 years of Shalva have to all be at the end and the 12 years of servitude to Kdarla'omer have to be from the founding of Sdom, right after the death of Re'u and Migdal Bavel. (Avraham was 100-52=48 during Migdal Bavel) Why not say that there were some years of Shalva in Sdom before Kdarl'omer came along and simply break up the 26 years before and after the 12 years of servitude and 13 years of rebellion. So that the war between Avraham and the five kings can be after Avraham is 75+. Why are Tosfos and Rashi seemingly creating more problems than they are helping solve. What's pushing them to do this. What am I missing. The Kollel replied: 1) By way of introduction, I should point out that we should not be too concerned if things do not match chronologically, because we have the very important rule (Pesachim 6b), Ein Mukdam u'Me'uchar ba'Torah -- that which came first on the timeline was not necessarily written first in the Torah. Rashi (Bereshis 6:3) cites this rule very early in his commentary on the Torah and gives an example there from that Parshah. 2) Now we will look at the source for Tosfos' statement that Avraham was 70 at the Bris Bein ha'Besarim. This is explained by the Da'as Zekenim mi'Ba'alei ha'Tosfos on Bereshis 12:4. He proves this from the apparent contradiction between Bereshis 15:13 and Shemos 12:41. In Bereshis 15:13, Avraham was told by Hashem that his descendants would be afflicted for 400 years in Egypt. However, Shemos 12:41 says that they left after 430 years. The solution is given by Rashi in Bereshis 15:13 that the 400 years start from when Yitzchak was born, while the 430 years start from when Hashem spoke to Avraham at the Bris Bein ha'Besarim. We now know that the Bris Bein ha'Besarim happened 30 years before Yitzchak was born. Since we know that Avraham was 100 when Yitzchak was born, it follows that he was 70 at the Bris Bein ha'Besarim. We are forced to apply here Ein Mukdam u'Me'uchar ba'Torah, because Avraham was 75 at the beginning of Lech Lecha and he was only 70 later on in the same Parshah. 3) However, your question about the age 73 that Tosfos gives for Avraham's age at the time of the battle with the kings is asked by Rav Eliezer Moshe ha'Levi Horowitz, whose Chidushim are printed in the back of the Gemara. He claims that the verses contradict Tosfos. We see explicitly that Avraham's departure from Canaan, his descebt to Egypt, as well as his return from Egypt to Canaan, were all done together with Lot. Only after they parted did the war with the kings take place. Rav Horowitz proves from this that Avraham was at least 75 at the time of the war with the kings, so how can Tosfos say he was 73? I have to close here for the moment. In my next reply I will try, b'Ezras Hashem, to defend Tosfos from the question asked on him by Rav Horowitz. The Kollel added: Before I attempt to answer the question of Rav Elazar Moshe ha'Levi Horowitz, I will cite another source on your side. Tosfos in Shabbos (11a, DH v'Shel) cites the Seder Olam, from which it appears that Avraham was 75 when he struck the kings. 1) The Seder Olam starts by stating that Avraham was 70 at the Bris Bein ha'Besarim. This is what I wrote in my first reply. Avraham then returned to Charan
Re: Berachos 007: Tosfos on Avraham Avinu
x-mailing-list: daf-disc...@shemayisrael.com(Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.) _ THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld d...@dafyomi.co.il [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] Re: Berachos 007: Tosfos on Avraham Avinu Betzalel Gersten asks: Why does Tosfos try to prove that after the battle of the four kings Avraham is 73. We know that Avraham entered Eretz Canaan by Lech Lecha at 75 as the Pasuk is explicit (Beraishis 12:4) and Lot is with him at that time (important for later). If we just follow everything chronologically, Avraham is still older in Beraishis 15:2 (75+) then he is in Beraishis 15:8 (70 years old). By explaining this the way Tosfos (and first Rashi on Shabbos 12a) explain it creates a whole new problem. How is it that the death of Kdarla'omer, the capture and saving of Lot, and the capture and return of all of his Rechush (14:16) the mention of Aner, Ashkol Mamre (14:13,24), as well as a Pasuk that says that Avraham lived in Elonei Mamre(14:13) -- how could all this happen before Lech Lecha and when Avraham and Lot subsequently went down to Mitzrayim and subsequently came up with wealth which subsequently caused disputes between their shepherds and sent Lot to Sdom. Wasn't he captured logically after that point when Avraham is 75+. What is forcing Tosfos and Rashi to make the break of the 52 years of Sdom down the middle to put Beraishis 15:1 when Avraham is 73. Why do the 26 years of Shalva have to all be at the end and the 12 years of servitude to Kdarla'omer have to be from the founding of Sdom, right after the death of Re'u and Migdal Bavel. (Avraham was 100-52=48 during Migdal Bavel) Why not say that there were some years of Shalva in Sdom before Kdarl'omer came along and simply break up the 26 years before and after the 12 years of servitude and 13 years of rebellion. So that the war between Avraham and the five kings can be after Avraham is 75+. Why are Tosfos and Rashi seemingly creating more problems than they are helping solve. What's pushing them to do this. What am I missing. The Kollel replied: 1) By way of introduction, I should point out that we should not be too concerned if things do not match chronologically, because we have the very important rule (Pesachim 6b), Ein Mukdam u'Me'uchar ba'Torah -- that which came first on the timeline was not necessarily written first in the Torah. Rashi (Bereshis 6:3) cites this rule very early in his commentary on the Torah and gives an example there from that Parshah. 2) Now we will look at the source for Tosfos' statement that Avraham was 70 at the Bris Bein ha'Besarim. This is explained by the Da'as Zekenim mi'Ba'alei ha'Tosfos on Bereshis 12:4. He proves this from the apparent contradiction between Bereshis 15:13 and Shemos 12:41. In Bereshis 15:13, Avraham was told by Hashem that his descendants would be afflicted for 400 years in Egypt. However, Shemos 12:41 says that they left after 430 years. The solution is given by Rashi in Bereshis 15:13 that the 400 years start from when Yitzchak was born, while the 430 years start from when Hashem spoke to Avraham at the Bris Bein ha'Besarim. We now know that the Bris Bein ha'Besarim happened 30 years before Yitzchak was born. Since we know that Avraham was 100 when Yitzchak was born, it follows that he was 70 at the Bris Bein ha'Besarim. We are forced to apply here Ein Mukdam u'Me'uchar ba'Torah, because Avraham was 75 at the beginning of Lech Lecha and he was only 70 later on in the same Parshah. 3) However, your question about the age 73 that Tosfos gives for Avraham's age at the time of the battle with the kings is asked by Rav Eliezer Moshe ha'Levi Horowitz, whose Chidushim are printed in the back of the Gemara. He claims that the verses contradict Tosfos. We see explicitly that Avraham's departure from Canaan, his descebt to Egypt, as well as his return from Egypt to Canaan, were all done together with Lot. Only after they parted did the war with the kings take place. Rav Horowitz proves from this that Avraham was at least 75 at the time of the war with the kings, so how can Tosfos say he was 73? I have to close here for the moment. In my next reply I will try, b'Ezras Hashem, to defend Tosfos from the question asked on him by Rav Horowitz. --- The Kollel adds: Before I attempt to answer the question of Rav Elazar Moshe ha'Levi Horowitz, I will cite another source on your side. Tosfos in Shabbos (11a, DH v'Shel) cites the Seder Olam, from which it appears that Avraham was 75 when he struck the kings. 1) The Seder Olam starts by stating that Avraham was 70 at the Bris Bein ha'Besarim. This is what I wrote in my first reply. Avraham then returned to Charan
Berachos 007: Tosfos on Avraham Avinu
x-mailing-list: daf-disc...@shemayisrael.com(Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.) _ THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld d...@dafyomi.co.il [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] Berachos 007: Tosfos on Avraham Avinu Betzalel Gersten asks: Why does Tosfos try to prove that after the battle of the four kings Avraham is 73. We know that Avraham entered Eretz Canaan by Lech Lecha at 75 as the Pasuk is explicit (Beraishis 12:4) and Lot is with him at that time (important for later). If we just follow everything chronologically, Avraham is still older in Beraishis 15:2 (75+) then he is in Beraishis 15:8 (70 years old). By explaining this the way Tosfos (and first Rashi on Shabbos 12a) explain it creates a whole new problem. How is it that the death of Kdarla'omer, the capture and saving of Lot, and the capture and return of all of his Rechush (14:16) the mention of Aner, Ashkol Mamre (14:13,24), as well as a Pasuk that says that Avraham lived in Elonei Mamre(14:13) -- how could all this happen before Lech Lecha and when Avraham and Lot subsequently went down to Mitzrayim and subsequently came up with wealth which subsequently caused disputes between their shepherds and sent Lot to Sdom. Wasn't he captured logically after that point when Avraham is 75+. What is forcing Tosfos and Rashi to make the break of the 52 years of Sdom down the middle to put Beraishis 15:1 when Avraham is 73. Why do the 26 years of Shalva have to all be at the end and the 12 years of servitude to Kdarla'omer have to be from the founding of Sdom, right after the death of Re'u and Migdal Bavel. (Avraham was 100-52=48 during Migdal Bavel) Why not say that there were some years of Shalva in Sdom before Kdarl'omer came along and simply break up the 26 years before and after the 12 years of servitude and 13 years of rebellion. So that the war between Avraham and the five kings can be after Avraham is 75+. Why are Tosfos and Rashi seemingly creating more problems than they are helping solve. What's pushing them to do this. What am I missing. -- The Kollel replies: 1) By way of introduction, I should point out that we should not be too concerned if things do not match chronologically, because we have the very important rule (Pesachim 6b), Ein Mukdam u'Me'uchar ba'Torah -- that which came first on the timeline was not necessarily written first in the Torah. Rashi (Bereshis 6:3) cites this rule very early in his commentary on the Torah and gives an example there from that Parshah. 2) Now we will look at the source for Tosfos' statement that Avraham was 70 at the Bris Bein ha'Besarim. This is explained by the Da'as Zekenim mi'Ba'alei ha'Tosfos on Bereshis 12:4. He proves this from the apparent contradiction between Bereshis 15:13 and Shemos 12:41. In Bereshis 15:13, Avraham was told by Hashem that his descendants would be afflicted for 400 years in Egypt. However, Shemos 12:41 says that they left after 430 years. The solution is given by Rashi in Bereshis 15:13 that the 400 years start from when Yitzchak was born, while the 430 years start from when Hashem spoke to Avraham at the Bris Bein ha'Besarim. We now know that the Bris Bein ha'Besarim happened 30 years before Yitzchak was born. Since we know that Avraham was 100 when Yitzchak was born, it follows that he was 70 at the Bris Bein ha'Besarim. We are forced to apply here Ein Mukdam u'Me'uchar ba'Torah, because Avraham was 75 at the beginning of Lech Lecha and he was only 70 later on in the same Parshah. 3) However, your question about the age 73 that Tosfos gives for Avraham's age at the time of the battle with the kings is asked by Rav Eliezer Moshe ha'Levi Horowitz, whose Chidushim are printed in the back of the Gemara. He claims that the verses contradict Tosfos. We see explicitly that Avraham's departure from Canaan, his descebt to Egypt, as well as his return from Egypt to Canaan, were all done together with Lot. Only after they parted did the war with the kings take place. Rav Horowitz proves from this that Avraham was at least 75 at the time of the war with the kings, so how can Tosfos say he was 73? I have to close here for the moment. In my next reply I will try, b'Ezras Hashem, to defend Tosfos from the question asked on him by Rav Horowitz. Kol Tuv, Dovid Bloom The *D*AFYOMI *A*DVANCEMENT *F*ORUM, brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf Write to us at d...@dafyomi.co.il or visit us at http://www.dafyomi.co.il Tel/Fax(US): 646-820-3315; Fax(Isr): (02) 591-6024; Tel(Isr): (02) 651-5004 ___ Daf-discuss mailing list Daf-discuss@shemayisrael.co.il http
