Re: [darktable-dev] Show maximum possible export size in light table?

[August Schwerdfeger]

Here are a few examples of instances where I have had to bypass the
collection module, by manual access to the database or otherwise:

* It is impossible to search for an exact match to a string. If, for
example, I want to search for an image with the exact title "Water", I
cannot exclude images titled "Desert with no water".
* The tagging module is case-sensitive in its treatment of tags, but the
collect module always ignores case. Thus, for example, if I have two tags
named "Water" and "WATER", the module cannot be made to distinguish between
them. More than once, when I have made a typo and accidentally created a
tag such as "WAter", I have had to go into the database to re-tag images.
* The current "list of rules" collection structure makes it impossible to
formulate some fairly reasonable classes of queries, such as "A but not (B
and C)".

Also, even if most users do not need more powerful search functionality,
one could still make a case for providing it in the API so that the users
who do need it could access it through a Lua module without inconveniencing
the rest.

--
August Schwerdfeger
aug...@schwerdfeger.name

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 7:19 PM, Mark Feit  wrote:

> On 1/16/18 3:53 AM, Heiko Bauke wrote:
>
>>
>> Nevertheless, I am not fully convinced that darktable requires such a
>> kind of feature.  I am pretty sure that such complex search patterns emerge
>> from time to time.  But for typical use cases the current collection module
>> is sufficient.
>>
> Typical use cases are limited by what the current collection module can
> do.  The only ways to find out if users are doing things outside of
> darktable that could be done inside are to ask or be asked.  In my own
> case, the only thing I use the collection module for is pulling up whole
> folders I've used before.  Anything beyond that and I use home-brewed stuff
> to paw through my library and then go back to DT and work by folder.
>
> Not that I think darktable needs to shoot for full feature parity with
> Lightroom, but text search is pretty useful and has been available in that
> product for almost a decade.
>
> ... darktable developers should evaluate xapian (https://xapian.org/).
>>
> Xapian wouldn't be a bad choice, either.  I suggested Lucene because it's
> very good at what it does, I have a lot of very positive experience with it
> and it's in wide enough use that finding developers who understand it isn't
> difficult.  Most indexing APIs I've put together are a half-dozen calls or
> less, so it really wouldn't matter what's backing it up if it's got the
> right feature set.
>
> At any rate, my offer's on the table, it still stands for any indexer and
> my feelings won't be hurt if it's ignored.
>
> --Mark
>
>
> 
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Re: [darktable-dev] Show maximum possible export size in light table?

[Mark Feit]

On 1/16/18 3:53 AM, Heiko Bauke wrote:


Nevertheless, I am not fully convinced that darktable requires such a 
kind of feature.  I am pretty sure that such complex search patterns 
emerge from time to time.  But for typical use cases the current 
collection module is sufficient.
Typical use cases are limited by what the current collection module can 
do.  The only ways to find out if users are doing things outside of 
darktable that could be done inside are to ask or be asked.  In my own 
case, the only thing I use the collection module for is pulling up whole 
folders I've used before.  Anything beyond that and I use home-brewed 
stuff to paw through my library and then go back to DT and work by folder.


Not that I think darktable needs to shoot for full feature parity with 
Lightroom, but text search is pretty useful and has been available in 
that product for almost a decade.



... darktable developers should evaluate xapian (https://xapian.org/).
Xapian wouldn't be a bad choice, either.  I suggested Lucene because 
it's very good at what it does, I have a lot of very positive experience 
with it and it's in wide enough use that finding developers who 
understand it isn't difficult.  Most indexing APIs I've put together are 
a half-dozen calls or less, so it really wouldn't matter what's backing 
it up if it's got the right feature set.


At any rate, my offer's on the table, it still stands for any indexer 
and my feelings won't be hurt if it's ignored.


--Mark

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Re: [darktable-dev] Show maximum possible export size in light table?

[Heiko Bauke]

Am 12.01.2018 um 14:29 schrieb Mark Feit:

A really, really good solution to this would be to dump all available
image metadata into a full-text indexer and allow the user to filter
using queries.  Done right, it gives users immense flexibility and saves
having to write and maintain application-specific filtering infrastructure.

I've used Lucene to do similar things on several projects over the last
15 years, some indexing tens of millions of records, with a great deal
of success.  It's fast, reasonably lightweight, solid, makes a very
small index relative to the corpus if you're not using it as a document
store and has a query language that can't be beat. Lucene supports
fields, which would allow search on specific attributes in addition to
free-form, Google-style queries.  For example, a query to pull images
taken with a Nikon at ISOs up to 1000 taken during 2017, have five
stars, contain the word "green" (maybe as a result of having the green
label applied) and not containing the word "wedding" anywhere would look
like this:

      maker:nikon iso:[0 TO 1000] createdate:[20170101 TO 20171231]
stars:5 green -wedding

The down side is that Lucene is written in Java, 

[...]

this, would enable complex but powerful search patterns, indeed. 
Nevertheless, I am not fully convinced that darktable requires such a 
kind of feature.  I am pretty sure that such complex search patterns 
emerge from time to time.  But for typical use cases the current 
collection module is sufficient.


One has to evaluate the trade-offs of raising the code complexity by 
adding a new search engine and gaining a (possibly not often used) new 
feature.  From a developer's point of view it is probably not desirable 
to have two different search backends (the current + Lucene).  In case, 
that one really considers going into the direction of a full-text 
indexer, darktable developers should evaluate xapian 
(https://xapian.org/).  It is written in C++ and released under GPL v2+, 
which might be more suitable for darktable.



Heiko


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Re: [darktable-dev] Show maximum possible export size in light table?

[Pythagoras]

On 1/12/18 3:29 AM, Heiko Bauke wrote:


At the moment, one can collect images by specific criteria. Some of 
these criteria can be expressed by numerical values, e.g., focal 
length or ISO.  It would be nice if one could collect not only images 
taken at a specific ISO, let's say, but also taken at an ISO 
larger/greater than a specific given value.


In a next step one could add the possibility to collect images of a 
width/height larger/smaller than a specific value.  The possibility 
to collect images of a particular size only would not be powerful 
enough for most use cases.  There are too many possible sizes. 


A really, really good solution to this would be to dump all available 
image metadata into a full-text indexer and allow the user to filter 
using queries.  Done right, it gives users immense flexibility and 
saves having to write and maintain application-specific filtering 
infrastructure.



A solution like that would be really, really great.
With that one can also filter eg. for locations in a very powerful way.
1. Is there an elevation recorded (to tell, if it is geotagged by map or 
by recordings from a device)?

2. Locations "bigger" than ... which means east of ...

That's something I'm missing already a long time.
Would be perfect to have such possibilities of filtering.

Reiner

I've used Lucene to do similar things on several projects over the 
last 15 years, some indexing tens of millions of records, with a great 
deal of success.  It's fast, reasonably lightweight, solid, makes a 
very small index relative to the corpus if you're not using it as a 
document store and has a query language that can't be beat. Lucene 
supports fields, which would allow search on specific attributes in 
addition to free-form, Google-style queries.  For example, a query to 
pull images taken with a Nikon at ISOs up to 1000 taken during 2017, 
have five stars, contain the word "green" (maybe as a result of having 
the green label applied) and not containing the word "wedding" 
anywhere would look like this:


    maker:nikon iso:[0 TO 1000] createdate:[20170101 TO 20171231] 
stars:5 green -wedding


The down side is that Lucene is written in Java, and I'm pretty sure 
the last thing anyone wants to do is try to integrate it directly with 
DT.  There are ports to other languages (including C++, which could be 
wrapped in C) that are binary-compatible with the Java version's 
indexes and, of course, other indexers that could be considered.  It 
would also be possible to integrate with an external program that 
takes insertions, updates, deletions and queries from DT and returns 
results via a pipe or socket.  The presence or absence of the program 
could be used a switch for whether or not DT enables its indexing 
features.


I don't have the spare cycles to take on the complete project, but I 
would be more than happy to provide guidance on how to organize the 
index, evaluate indexing software and do enough at-the-edges 
integration work to make the indexing work easy to incorporate into DT.


--Mark

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Re: [darktable-dev] Show maximum possible export size in light table?

[Mark Feit]

On 1/12/18 3:29 AM, Heiko Bauke wrote:


At the moment, one can collect images by specific criteria.  Some of 
these criteria can be expressed by numerical values, e.g., focal 
length or ISO.  It would be nice if one could collect not only images 
taken at a specific ISO, let's say, but also taken at an ISO 
larger/greater than a specific given value.


In a next step one could add the possibility to collect images of a 
width/height larger/smaller than a specific value.  The possibility to 
collect images of a particular size only would not be powerful enough 
for most use cases.  There are too many possible sizes. 


A really, really good solution to this would be to dump all available 
image metadata into a full-text indexer and allow the user to filter 
using queries.  Done right, it gives users immense flexibility and saves 
having to write and maintain application-specific filtering infrastructure.


I've used Lucene to do similar things on several projects over the last 
15 years, some indexing tens of millions of records, with a great deal 
of success.  It's fast, reasonably lightweight, solid, makes a very 
small index relative to the corpus if you're not using it as a document 
store and has a query language that can't be beat. Lucene supports 
fields, which would allow search on specific attributes in addition to 
free-form, Google-style queries.  For example, a query to pull images 
taken with a Nikon at ISOs up to 1000 taken during 2017, have five 
stars, contain the word "green" (maybe as a result of having the green 
label applied) and not containing the word "wedding" anywhere would look 
like this:


    maker:nikon iso:[0 TO 1000] createdate:[20170101 TO 20171231] 
stars:5 green -wedding


The down side is that Lucene is written in Java, and I'm pretty sure the 
last thing anyone wants to do is try to integrate it directly with DT.  
There are ports to other languages (including C++, which could be 
wrapped in C) that are binary-compatible with the Java version's indexes 
and, of course, other indexers that could be considered.  It would also 
be possible to integrate with an external program that takes insertions, 
updates, deletions and queries from DT and returns results via a pipe or 
socket.  The presence or absence of the program could be used a switch 
for whether or not DT enables its indexing features.


I don't have the spare cycles to take on the complete project, but I 
would be more than happy to provide guidance on how to organize the 
index, evaluate indexing software and do enough at-the-edges integration 
work to make the indexing work easy to incorporate into DT.


--Mark

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Re: [darktable-dev] Show maximum possible export size in light table?

[Heiko Bauke]

Am 12.01.2018 um 10:19 schrieb Tobias Ellinghaus:

That is already possible, have a look at the tooltip of the entry box in the
collect module.


Wonderful!


Heiko

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Re: [darktable-dev] Show maximum possible export size in light table?

[Tobias Ellinghaus]

Am Freitag, 12. Januar 2018, 09:29:42 CET schrieb Heiko Bauke:
> Hi,
> 
> Am 11.01.2018 um 20:05 schrieb Simon Harhues:
> > If it is about selecting images, how about adding export size as filter
> > option for the collection module? Instead of pixels, mm/inch + dpi might
> > be an alternative, although I have no real idea how to put both in one
> > drop down.
> 
> I totally agree.  Just showing the maximal exported image size somewhere
> is not really appropriate for the mentioned use case.  Before adding the
> possibility to collect images with a specific(!) size, however, I would
> suggest to implement another feature first.

Making that size available to the collect module would require it to be 
present in the database. That's certainly possible, but requires some thinking 
to make sure that the stored value won't get out of sync with the history 
stack. So it would have to be updated in quite a few places.

> At the moment, one can collect images by specific criteria.  Some of
> these criteria can be expressed by numerical values, e.g., focal length
> or ISO.  It would be nice if one could collect not only images taken at
> a specific ISO, let's say, but also taken at an ISO larger/greater than
> a specific given value.

That is already possible, have a look at the tooltip of the entry box in the 
collect module.

[...]

>   Heiko

Tobias

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Re: [darktable-dev] Show maximum possible export size in light table?

[Heiko Bauke]

Hi,

Am 11.01.2018 um 20:05 schrieb Simon Harhues:

If it is about selecting images, how about adding export size as filter
option for the collection module? Instead of pixels, mm/inch + dpi might
be an alternative, although I have no real idea how to put both in one
drop down.


I totally agree.  Just showing the maximal exported image size somewhere 
is not really appropriate for the mentioned use case.  Before adding the 
possibility to collect images with a specific(!) size, however, I would 
suggest to implement another feature first.


At the moment, one can collect images by specific criteria.  Some of 
these criteria can be expressed by numerical values, e.g., focal length 
or ISO.  It would be nice if one could collect not only images taken at 
a specific ISO, let's say, but also taken at an ISO larger/greater than 
a specific given value.


In a next step one could add the possibility to collect images of a 
width/height larger/smaller than a specific value.  The possibility to 
collect images of a particular size only would not be powerful enough 
for most use cases.  There are too many possible sizes.



Heiko

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Re: [darktable-dev] Show maximum possible export size in light table?

[Simon Harhues]

Dear Tobias,

Am 11.01.2018 um 19:55 schrieb Tobias Ellinghaus:
> Am Donnerstag, 11. Januar 2018, 19:06:36 CET schrieb Tobias Ellinghaus:
>> Am Donnerstag, 11. Januar 2018, 18:27:32 CET schrieb August Schwerdfeger:
>>> I am often having to sift through large batches of already-processed
>>> photos
>>> to select some number (for entry into photo shows, etc.). There is usually
>>> a minimum size requirement involved, and I frequently find myself having
>>> to
>>> go back into the crop module to see whether or not some cropped photo
>>> meets
>>> the size requirements. It would be very convenient if I could do this at a
>>> glance in the light table instead.
If it is about selecting images, how about adding export size as filter
option for the collection module? Instead of pixels, mm/inch + dpi might
be an alternative, although I have no real idea how to put both in one
drop down.

Just my 2 ct
Simon



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Re: [darktable-dev] Show maximum possible export size in light table?

[Tobias Ellinghaus]

Am Donnerstag, 11. Januar 2018, 19:06:36 CET schrieb Tobias Ellinghaus:
> Am Donnerstag, 11. Januar 2018, 18:27:32 CET schrieb August Schwerdfeger:
> > I am often having to sift through large batches of already-processed
> > photos
> > to select some number (for entry into photo shows, etc.). There is usually
> > a minimum size requirement involved, and I frequently find myself having
> > to
> > go back into the crop module to see whether or not some cropped photo
> > meets
> > the size requirements. It would be very convenient if I could do this at a
> > glance in the light table instead.
> 
> Done, the image information module now shows those values, next to the other
> size. Actually, I think the max export size is more interesting than the
> exif size as you will never get any image out of dt with that size (at
> least when editing raw files). I had several cases where an heavily cropped
> image looked nice on the lighttable but after export i found out that it
> was too small for the task. This way I can see it right away and adjust the
> crop or look for another image.

And it's gone again. Sorry for the noise, but the straight forward 
implementation was too slow on some systems. I'll see if it can be made 
faster.

> > --
> > August Schwerdfeger
> > aug...@schwerdfeger.name
> 
> Tobias
> 
> [...]



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Re: [darktable-dev] Show maximum possible export size in light table?

[Tobias Ellinghaus]

Am Donnerstag, 11. Januar 2018, 18:27:32 CET schrieb August Schwerdfeger:
> I am often having to sift through large batches of already-processed photos
> to select some number (for entry into photo shows, etc.). There is usually
> a minimum size requirement involved, and I frequently find myself having to
> go back into the crop module to see whether or not some cropped photo meets
> the size requirements. It would be very convenient if I could do this at a
> glance in the light table instead.

Done, the image information module now shows those values, next to the other 
size. Actually, I think the max export size is more interesting than the exif 
size as you will never get any image out of dt with that size (at least when 
editing raw files). I had several cases where an heavily cropped image looked 
nice on the lighttable but after export i found out that it was too small for 
the task. This way I can see it right away and adjust the crop or look for 
another image.

> --
> August Schwerdfeger
> aug...@schwerdfeger.name

Tobias

[...]

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Re: [darktable-dev] Show maximum possible export size in light table?

[August Schwerdfeger]

I am often having to sift through large batches of already-processed photos
to select some number (for entry into photo shows, etc.). There is usually
a minimum size requirement involved, and I frequently find myself having to
go back into the crop module to see whether or not some cropped photo meets
the size requirements. It would be very convenient if I could do this at a
glance in the light table instead.

--
August Schwerdfeger
aug...@schwerdfeger.name

On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 10:53 AM, Heiko Bauke  wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
> Am 11.01.2018 um 17:46 schrieb August Schwerdfeger:
>
>> If I did that, I still could not determine the size until *after* the
>> export, by examining the exported image. What I am asking about is a way to
>> determine the size within Darktable itself, without having to do an export.
>>
>
> this is correct.  It remains unclear, however, why this might be an
> interesting information *before* export.  (Except at the moment when the
> crop size is set in the crop module of course.)  Just curiosity?
>
>
>
> Heiko
>
> --
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Re: [darktable-dev] Show maximum possible export size in light table?

[Heiko Bauke]

Hi,


Am 11.01.2018 um 17:46 schrieb August Schwerdfeger:
If I did that, I still could not determine the size until *after* the 
export, by examining the exported image. What I am asking about is a way 
to determine the size within Darktable itself, without having to do an 
export.


this is correct.  It remains unclear, however, why this might be an 
interesting information *before* export.  (Except at the moment when the 
crop size is set in the crop module of course.)  Just curiosity?



Heiko

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Re: [darktable-dev] Show maximum possible export size in light table?

[August Schwerdfeger]

If I did that, I still could not determine the size until *after* the
export, by examining the exported image. What I am asking about is a way to
determine the size within Darktable itself, without having to do an export.

--
August Schwerdfeger
aug...@schwerdfeger.name

On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 10:23 AM, Heiko Bauke  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Am 11.01.2018 um 17:10 schrieb August Schwerdfeger:
>
>> For me, the use case is determining, in a speedy and convenient manner,
>> the maximum size at which I can print a cropped photo.
>>
>
> if you want to export at maximal size without upscaling set max size to
> zero, or set these dimensions to very large values (larger than any
> reasonable image dimension) and set allow upscaling to "no".
>
>
> Heiko
>
>
> --
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> --  Cluster Computing @ http://www.clustercomputing.de
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>
> 
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Re: [darktable-dev] Show maximum possible export size in light table?

[Heiko Bauke]

Hi,

Am 11.01.2018 um 17:10 schrieb August Schwerdfeger:
For me, the use case is determining, in a speedy and convenient manner, 
the maximum size at which I can print a cropped photo.


if you want to export at maximal size without upscaling set max size to 
zero, or set these dimensions to very large values (larger than any 
reasonable image dimension) and set allow upscaling to "no".



Heiko


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Re: [darktable-dev] Show maximum possible export size in light table?

[Bernhard]

Exactly.

when doing wildlife shots e. g. cropping is quite common. The lighttable 
information panel lower left only shows the original RAW size of the 
photo, so I have to open the picture in darkroom, go the crop module and 
click into the picture to see the figures.



August Schwerdfeger schrieb am 11.01.2018 um 17:10:
For me, the use case is determining, in a speedy and convenient 
manner, the maximum size at which I can print a cropped photo.


--
August Schwerdfeger
aug...@schwerdfeger.name 

On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 4:43 AM, Roman Lebedev > wrote:


On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 7:17 AM, August Schwerdfeger
mailto:aug...@schwerdfeger.name>> wrote:
> There is currently no easy way to determine the dimensions of an
image after
> processing occurs (i.e., the maximum size at which an image can
be exported
> without upscaling). I either have to do the actual export at
maximum size,
> or go into darkroom mode, open up the crop module, and try to
hold the
> pointer as steady as I can while reading the dimensions off of
the center of
> the crop box.
>
> Would it be feasible to have a light table module showing an
image's maximum
> possible export size?
What for, what's the use-case?

> --
> August Schwerdfeger
> aug...@schwerdfeger.name 
Roman.

>
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Bernhard

http://www.bilddateien.de


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Re: [darktable-dev] Show maximum possible export size in light table?

[August Schwerdfeger]

For me, the use case is determining, in a speedy and convenient manner, the
maximum size at which I can print a cropped photo.

--
August Schwerdfeger
aug...@schwerdfeger.name

On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 4:43 AM, Roman Lebedev  wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 7:17 AM, August Schwerdfeger
>  wrote:
> > There is currently no easy way to determine the dimensions of an image
> after
> > processing occurs (i.e., the maximum size at which an image can be
> exported
> > without upscaling). I either have to do the actual export at maximum
> size,
> > or go into darkroom mode, open up the crop module, and try to hold the
> > pointer as steady as I can while reading the dimensions off of the
> center of
> > the crop box.
> >
> > Would it be feasible to have a light table module showing an image's
> maximum
> > possible export size?
> What for, what's the use-case?
>
> > --
> > August Schwerdfeger
> > aug...@schwerdfeger.name
> Roman.
>
> > 
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Re: [darktable-dev] Show maximum possible export size in light table?

[Roman Lebedev]

On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 7:17 AM, August Schwerdfeger
 wrote:
> There is currently no easy way to determine the dimensions of an image after
> processing occurs (i.e., the maximum size at which an image can be exported
> without upscaling). I either have to do the actual export at maximum size,
> or go into darkroom mode, open up the crop module, and try to hold the
> pointer as steady as I can while reading the dimensions off of the center of
> the crop box.
>
> Would it be feasible to have a light table module showing an image's maximum
> possible export size?
What for, what's the use-case?

> --
> August Schwerdfeger
> aug...@schwerdfeger.name
Roman.

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[darktable-dev] Show maximum possible export size in light table?

[August Schwerdfeger]

There is currently no easy way to determine the dimensions of an image
after processing occurs (i.e., the maximum size at which an image can be
exported without upscaling). I either have to do the actual export at
maximum size, or go into darkroom mode, open up the crop module, and try to
hold the pointer as steady as I can while reading the dimensions off of the
center of the crop box.

Would it be feasible to have a light table module showing an image's
maximum possible export size?

--
August Schwerdfeger
aug...@schwerdfeger.name

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