Re: [darktable-user] Recommended processing order
There’s no one size fits it all - if you need information of cropped areas you’d better crop late in your workflow, otherwise crop early. For a beginner it’s ok to recommend late cropping so nothing is out of view too early. Hopping back and forward to adjust an improper cropping eats more performance than you’ll win with an early cropping. An experienced user usually doesn’t need to follow a beginners workflow ;) Don’t expect a manual to describe workflows for each level of experience… > Am 08.08.2022 um 21:26 schrieb Len Philpot : > > For what it's worth I find that cropping early on enhances my workflow. I > don't have a fire breathing computer, so rendering (if not analyzing?) less > of the image possibly (?) bumps performance just a little. But mainly, > getting rid of content that I know I don't want and getting the image > fundamentally more as I do it want it helps me perform the remaining edits > with a bit more clarity. > > YMMV. > > Len Philpot >> On 2022-08-08 13:43, Remco Viëtor wrote: >>> On lundi 8 août 2022 20:35:52 CEST Terry Pinfold wrote: >>> Just looking at the DT pipeline and I see cropping is placed before filmic. >>> For most images I doubt that cropping would have a significant effect on >>> tone mapping, but if it is obvious that it would then do it early in the >>> processing steps. >> No, cropping has no effect on the tone mapping (other than that you may want >> to adjust the black and white reference; depending on what you cropped out). >> >> So if you want, you can start your editing with cropping. Just be aware that >> certain other operations may require you to disable the module temporarily >> or >> force you to review your crop. >> >> Remco >> >> >> >> darktable user mailing list >> to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org >> > > > > darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to > darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] Recommended processing order
For what it's worth I find that cropping early on enhances my workflow. I don't have a fire breathing computer, so rendering (if not analyzing?) less of the image possibly (?) bumps performance just a little. But mainly, getting rid of content that I know I don't want and getting the image fundamentally more as I do it want it helps me perform the remaining edits with a bit more clarity. YMMV. *Len Philpot* On 2022-08-08 13:43, Remco Viëtor wrote: On lundi 8 août 2022 20:35:52 CEST Terry Pinfold wrote: Just looking at the DT pipeline and I see cropping is placed before filmic. For most images I doubt that cropping would have a significant effect on tone mapping, but if it is obvious that it would then do it early in the processing steps. No, cropping has no effect on the tone mapping (other than that you may want to adjust the black and white reference; depending on what you cropped out). So if you want, you can start your editing with cropping. Just be aware that certain other operations may require you to disable the module temporarily or force you to review your crop. Remco darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail todarktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] Recommended processing order
On lundi 8 août 2022 20:35:52 CEST Terry Pinfold wrote: > Just looking at the DT pipeline and I see cropping is placed before filmic. > For most images I doubt that cropping would have a significant effect on > tone mapping, but if it is obvious that it would then do it early in the > processing steps. No, cropping has no effect on the tone mapping (other than that you may want to adjust the black and white reference; depending on what you cropped out). So if you want, you can start your editing with cropping. Just be aware that certain other operations may require you to disable the module temporarily or force you to review your crop. Remco darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] Recommended processing order
Just looking at the DT pipeline and I see cropping is placed before filmic. For most images I doubt that cropping would have a significant effect on tone mapping, but if it is obvious that it would then do it early in the processing steps. I am sure reaching consensus on what to write in the manual is difficult because we all like to do things differently. On Tue, 9 Aug 2022 at 04:10, Mikael Ståldal wrote: > On 2022-08-08 19:06, Remco Viëtor wrote: > > On lundi 8 août 2022 18:16:55 CEST David Vincent-Jones wrote: > >> My first objective with raw data is to establish the outline and tones > >> of the final image. I use perspective control and cropping prior to any > >> other function. Where these modules come in the 'pipeline' is really of > >> little importance to me. The 'frame' of the image is key to all further > >> processing.. > > > As I said elsewhere, some modules are better applied before cropping. > > Among these are "lens correction" (it often deforms the image, which van > > require small corrections to the crop) and "retouch" (where you can only > use > > source regions you can see...) > > True. However, I don't see why tone and color adjustments (Exposure, > Filmic RGB, Color Balance RGB, ...) are better applied before cropping. > And I wouldn't consider cropping to be some esoteric "createive > adjustment" which beginners can defer learning about until later, it's a > very basic part of image processing (and Darktable does not do it > differently from most other software). > > So the user manual is a bit misleading IMHO. > > > darktable user mailing list > to unsubscribe send a mail to > darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > -- darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] Recommended processing order
On 2022-08-08 19:06, Remco Viëtor wrote: On lundi 8 août 2022 18:16:55 CEST David Vincent-Jones wrote: My first objective with raw data is to establish the outline and tones of the final image. I use perspective control and cropping prior to any other function. Where these modules come in the 'pipeline' is really of little importance to me. The 'frame' of the image is key to all further processing.. As I said elsewhere, some modules are better applied before cropping. Among these are "lens correction" (it often deforms the image, which van require small corrections to the crop) and "retouch" (where you can only use source regions you can see...) True. However, I don't see why tone and color adjustments (Exposure, Filmic RGB, Color Balance RGB, ...) are better applied before cropping. And I wouldn't consider cropping to be some esoteric "createive adjustment" which beginners can defer learning about until later, it's a very basic part of image processing (and Darktable does not do it differently from most other software). So the user manual is a bit misleading IMHO. darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] Recommended processing order
On lundi 8 août 2022 18:16:55 CEST David Vincent-Jones wrote: > My first objective with raw data is to establish the outline and tones > of the final image. I use perspective control and cropping prior to any > other function. Where these modules come in the 'pipeline' is really of > little importance to me. The 'frame' of the image is key to all further > processing.. As I said elsewhere, some modules are better applied before cropping. Among these are "lens correction" (it often deforms the image, which van require small corrections to the crop) and "retouch" (where you can only use source regions you can see...) Apart from such exceptions, you can indeed use crop early in your workflow. Remco darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] Recommended processing order
My first objective with raw data is to establish the outline and tones of the final image. I use perspective control and cropping prior to any other function. Where these modules come in the 'pipeline' is really of little importance to me. The 'frame' of the image is key to all further processing.. On 2022-08-08 03:01, Terry Pinfold wrote: That would depend on where it falls within the pipeline. I am not on DT at the moment so I am not sure where it is placed. However, today I edited an image and applied cropping before filmic for the reasons you are alluding to. On Mon, 8 Aug 2022, 19:42 Mikael Ståldal, wrote: The https://docs.darktable.org/usermanual/development/en/overview/workflow/process/ section in the user manual outlines the recommended processing order. It places cropping towards the end along with creative adjustments. Wouldn't it make more sense to do cropping first, before tone adjustments etc? darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail todarktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] Recommended processing order
On lundi 8 août 2022 11:41:15 CEST Mikael Ståldal wrote:
> The
> https://docs.darktable.org/usermanual/development/en/overview/workflow/proce
> ss/ section in the user manual outlines the recommended processing order. It
> places cropping towards the end along with creative adjustments.
> Wouldn't it make more sense to do cropping first, before tone
> adjustments etc?
Well, the method in the section you refer to ("introduction to darktable's
workflow") starts with doing the required "technical" corrections with the
minimum number of modules needed: "exposure", "filmic RGB" and "color balance
RGB". The aim there is to get a decent starting point for further "creative"
corrections in as simple a way as possible.
But that section is an **introduction**, i.e. kept as simple as possible to
get the principles across. Once you are a bit more familiar with darktable and
its tools, nothing stops you from using a different working order.
And certain operations are easier before cropping:
- "lens correction" can move parts of the image a bit
- "rotate and perspective" will move and/or deform parts of the image
- in "retouch" you can use 'source' areas outside the final cropped image,
provided you can see them while retouching.
Remember that the order in which you use modules doesn't influence the order
in which they are applied to the image. So even if you activate "rotate and
perspective" after cropping, it will still be applied before the crop. Which
means your crop is probably no longer exactly what you intended.
Remco
darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] Recommended processing order
That would depend on where it falls within the pipeline. I am not on DT at the moment so I am not sure where it is placed. However, today I edited an image and applied cropping before filmic for the reasons you are alluding to. On Mon, 8 Aug 2022, 19:42 Mikael Ståldal, wrote: > The > > https://docs.darktable.org/usermanual/development/en/overview/workflow/process/ > section in the user manual outlines the recommended processing order. It > places cropping towards the end along with creative adjustments. > Wouldn't it make more sense to do cropping first, before tone > adjustments etc? > > > darktable user mailing list > to unsubscribe send a mail to > darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
[darktable-user] Recommended processing order
The https://docs.darktable.org/usermanual/development/en/overview/workflow/process/ section in the user manual outlines the recommended processing order. It places cropping towards the end along with creative adjustments. Wouldn't it make more sense to do cropping first, before tone adjustments etc? darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
