Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Jean-Philippe MENGUAL]

Hi,

Le 10/11/2019 à 09:46, Devin Prater a écrit :
Thank you for your fair, calm message. Yes, Linux accessibility is at a 
crisis point, but we do have four years to change this, even make things 
better than they have ever been. Now, that doesn’t mean we should just 


Exactly.



wait until three years have passed, then jump to action, but we don’t 
have to worry that Linux won’t stop working in a month or so unless we 
find each GTK developer and personally go all “how dare you!” On them 
and demand things. While I do still think that Linux developers, like 
all large companies, need accountability, we can at least leave a “paper 
trail” as it were, on Github.


You are completely right.



Some one correct me if I’m wrong, but all states of an issue are logged, 
all comments kept, and these cannot be deleted from a Github project, 
unless that project is deleted. So, we can ask, in a calm, informative 
way, that, for example, the Gnome Dash be fixed, so that it reports more 
than just “window” when entered, or that the Mate menu, I assume that’s 
what’s being used on F123 for graphical menus, be fixed so that Orca 
will report when one has entered into that menu. Give developers links 
to ATK documentation, Orca documentation, then, importantly, post the 
link to that issue to a list, like the Orca list, or the 
Linux-accessibility list if there is one, or the IRC #accessibility 
channel for those who have those bounce things that let them stay online 
all the time. Developers then can work on that issue, giving comments, 
dialoging with the community, following and commenting on the thread 
themselves, letting the developer know that this is something that will 
help. Or, they can close the thread, letting us know that accessibility 
isn’t important to that area of Linux if another developer doesn’t open 
it again. Then, we go on Twitter, Facebook, Mastodon, IRC, Email, 
contact the FSF and such, pound the message into stone if that makes a 
difference, that accessibility matters, and volunteers must be held 
accountable in order to make Linux free for all, not just free for those 
who have eyes that are operational, with all their circuits functioning 
perfectly. I think we’ll have to change the Linux accessibility 
landscape one Github or Gitlab issue at a time. And yes, there will be 
failings. There will be times when we’ll all have to shout “Shame! 
Shame! Shame!” At a developer for failing our community. But, as the 
failing of Linux, Antergos Sonar, and Coconut Linux has shown, we can’t 
do this on our own, and we cannot let developers expect that we can just 
make our own distributions. I’d love it if we could, really. Sonar was 
amazing. But it failed, so we have to try to raise awareness however we 
can, not just on Forums for distress, but on Github issues, where 
developers /cannot/ ignore it. And, if GTK4 folks say it’s Orca’s fault, 


Many thanks for all this, that is exactly what I have tried to carry out 
for years a a message. That is also why I think Debian is the good 
distro for accessibility: while we work on upstream - Sid / testing, 
end-users are quite on stable. That is why we have time, indeed, thanks 
to this long dev cycle, among other things. Advanced users may use 
backports. Power users may be on testing to help during 2 dev years.


When you report bugs, dont hesitate to say it here. We will be able to 
follow and support you.
Just be careful about one thing: MATE is a fork of Gnome, Gnome might 
not like them very much I guess. So do not mix them when reporting. Also 
because MATE probably has different problems, as rely on GTK3, not 
Wayland yet, etc. BTW, dont hesitate to open a thread here about Mate, 
to make us identify the problem. I am not aware of Mate problems so far 
here.


put an issue on Orca, and loop them all in, grab some popcorn, and watch 
them point fingers. Then, if it’s not resolved, post it to the world, 
paint the picture of how there just isn’t any resolution in free software.


Indeed we need advertisment, noise from the community, if bugs are not 
handled or closed. But always calm, constructive, to generte positive 
behaviors.


Best regards



Also, there is the “bug bounty” system that some open source projects 
do, like Libretro, of Retroarch. If people cannot do Accessibility 
because of the inherent value of humans with disabilities, offer them 
money. Yes, it’s not the best for the free software facade of being 
“above all that”, but it works sometimes, and it is needed sometimes.


On Nov 9, 2019, at 12:44 AM, Vojtěch Šmiro > wrote:


Hello.


Hypra is great, I have it from May this year and it is super. It isn't 
good to fight together what is better than something. Every system is 
good for some actions, some is accessible, some is more or less 
accessible. Anyway, this is Debian list and here we would solve Debian 
problems, not fight what is better or worse. Linux accessibility is in 
bad crisis. If we d

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Devin Prater]

This is very good. A roadmap will keep them accountable. Thank you so much for 
your work.

> On Nov 10, 2019, at 9:29 AM, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Le 10/11/2019 à 15:23, Devin Prater a écrit :
>> Yes, this is true. I forget that she is the only active developer of Orca, 
>> sorry. I simply want the developer of Orca to be talking with the people 
>> that point fingers at Orca as the problem because Obviously, screen 
>> readers are magic and can do things for blind people that transcend the GUI 
>> or something.
> 
> That is what we will do on February. Joanie cannot do this alone. She has 
> been fighting with this people for a long, now we need to help her. On 
> February, we will meet GTK and Gnome guys for this. I hope we will be as 
> constructive as possible, with end-user point of view, technical point of 
> view, funding point of view, meeting foundation, devs, power users, advanced 
> ones, companies. It needs to result a roadmap, a better understanding of the 
> accessibility matter, etc
> 
> Regards
> 
> Best regards,
> 
>>> On Nov 10, 2019, at 5:40 AM, Samuel Thibault  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Samuel Thibault, le dim. 10 nov. 2019 12:33:17 +0100, a ecrit:
 Devin Prater, le dim. 10 nov. 2019 02:46:51 -0600, a ecrit:
> if GTK4 folks say it’s Orca’s fault, put an issue on Orca, and
> loop them all in, grab some popcorn, and watch them point fingers.
 
 I don't think we want to make Joanmarie handle that.
>>> 
>>> (I meant make her have to handle that, i.e. she already has plenty of
>>> things to handle in Orca itself)
>>> 
>>> Samuel

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Jean-Philippe MENGUAL]

Le 10/11/2019 à 15:23, Devin Prater a écrit :

Yes, this is true. I forget that she is the only active developer of Orca, sorry. I simply 
want the developer of Orca to be talking with the people that point fingers at Orca as the 
problem because Obviously, screen readers are magic and can do things for 
blind people that transcend the GUI or something.


That is what we will do on February. Joanie cannot do this alone. She 
has been fighting with this people for a long, now we need to help her. 
On February, we will meet GTK and Gnome guys for this. I hope we will be 
as constructive as possible, with end-user point of view, technical 
point of view, funding point of view, meeting foundation, devs, power 
users, advanced ones, companies. It needs to result a roadmap, a better 
understanding of the accessibility matter, etc


Regards

Best regards,




On Nov 10, 2019, at 5:40 AM, Samuel Thibault  wrote:

Samuel Thibault, le dim. 10 nov. 2019 12:33:17 +0100, a ecrit:

Devin Prater, le dim. 10 nov. 2019 02:46:51 -0600, a ecrit:

if GTK4 folks say it’s Orca’s fault, put an issue on Orca, and
loop them all in, grab some popcorn, and watch them point fingers.


I don't think we want to make Joanmarie handle that.


(I meant make her have to handle that, i.e. she already has plenty of
things to handle in Orca itself)

Samuel

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Devin Prater]

Yes, this is true. I forget that she is the only active developer of Orca, 
sorry. I simply want the developer of Orca to be talking with the people that 
point fingers at Orca as the problem because Obviously, screen readers 
are magic and can do things for blind people that transcend the GUI or 
something.

> On Nov 10, 2019, at 5:40 AM, Samuel Thibault  wrote:
> 
> Samuel Thibault, le dim. 10 nov. 2019 12:33:17 +0100, a ecrit:
>> Devin Prater, le dim. 10 nov. 2019 02:46:51 -0600, a ecrit:
>>> if GTK4 folks say it’s Orca’s fault, put an issue on Orca, and
>>> loop them all in, grab some popcorn, and watch them point fingers.
>> 
>> I don't think we want to make Joanmarie handle that.
> 
> (I meant make her have to handle that, i.e. she already has plenty of
> things to handle in Orca itself)
> 
> Samuel

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Samuel Thibault]

Samuel Thibault, le dim. 10 nov. 2019 12:33:17 +0100, a ecrit:
> Devin Prater, le dim. 10 nov. 2019 02:46:51 -0600, a ecrit:
> > if GTK4 folks say it’s Orca’s fault, put an issue on Orca, and
> > loop them all in, grab some popcorn, and watch them point fingers.
> 
> I don't think we want to make Joanmarie handle that.

(I meant make her have to handle that, i.e. she already has plenty of
things to handle in Orca itself)

Samuel

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Samuel Thibault]

Hello,

Alex ARNAUD, le ven. 08 nov. 2019 09:29:21 +0100, a ecrit:
> To be fully clear: There is no risk to see something changes on your 
> experience
> until approximately 4 years.

Possibly a bit longer. It took a lot of time for applications to migrate
from gtk2 to gtk3. Migrating to gtk4 will probably also take some time.

Samuel

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Samuel Thibault]

Devin Prater, le dim. 10 nov. 2019 02:46:51 -0600, a ecrit:
> if GTK4 folks say it’s Orca’s fault, put an issue on Orca, and
> loop them all in, grab some popcorn, and watch them point fingers.

I don't think we want to make Joanmarie handle that.

Samuel

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Devin Prater]

Thank you for your fair, calm message. Yes, Linux accessibility is at a crisis 
point, but we do have four years to change this, even make things better than 
they have ever been. Now, that doesn’t mean we should just wait until three 
years have passed, then jump to action, but we don’t have to worry that Linux 
won’t stop working in a month or so unless we find each GTK developer and 
personally go all “how dare you!” On them and demand things. While I do still 
think that Linux developers, like all large companies, need accountability, we 
can at least leave a “paper trail” as it were, on Github.

Some one correct me if I’m wrong, but all states of an issue are logged, all 
comments kept, and these cannot be deleted from a Github project, unless that 
project is deleted. So, we can ask, in a calm, informative way, that, for 
example, the Gnome Dash be fixed, so that it reports more than just “window” 
when entered, or that the Mate menu, I assume that’s what’s being used on F123 
for graphical menus, be fixed so that Orca will report when one has entered 
into that menu. Give developers links to ATK documentation, Orca documentation, 
then, importantly, post the link to that issue to a list, like the Orca list, 
or the Linux-accessibility list if there is one, or the IRC #accessibility 
channel for those who have those bounce things that let them stay online all 
the time. Developers then can work on that issue, giving comments, dialoging 
with the community, following and commenting on the thread themselves, letting 
the developer know that this is something that will help. Or, they can close 
the thread, letting us know that accessibility isn’t important to that area of 
Linux if another developer doesn’t open it again. Then, we go on Twitter, 
Facebook, Mastodon, IRC, Email, contact the FSF and such, pound the message 
into stone if that makes a difference, that accessibility matters, and 
volunteers must be held accountable in order to make Linux free for all, not 
just free for those who have eyes that are operational, with all their circuits 
functioning perfectly. I think we’ll have to change the Linux accessibility 
landscape one Github or Gitlab issue at a time. And yes, there will be 
failings. There will be times when we’ll all have to shout “Shame! Shame! 
Shame!” At a developer for failing our community. But, as the failing of Linux, 
Antergos Sonar, and Coconut Linux has shown, we can’t do this on our own, and 
we cannot let developers expect that we can just make our own distributions. 
I’d love it if we could, really. Sonar was amazing. But it failed, so we have 
to try to raise awareness however we can, not just on Forums for distress, but 
on Github issues, where developers cannot ignore it. And, if GTK4 folks say 
it’s Orca’s fault, put an issue on Orca, and loop them all in, grab some 
popcorn, and watch them point fingers. Then, if it’s not resolved, post it to 
the world, paint the picture of how there just isn’t any resolution in free 
software.

Also, there is the “bug bounty” system that some open source projects do, like 
Libretro, of Retroarch. If people cannot do Accessibility because of the 
inherent value of humans with disabilities, offer them money. Yes, it’s not the 
best for the free software facade of being “above all that”, but it works 
sometimes, and it is needed sometimes.

> On Nov 9, 2019, at 12:44 AM, Vojtěch Šmiro  wrote:
> 
> Hello.
> 
> 
> Hypra is great, I have it from May this year and it is super. It isn't good 
> to fight together what is better than something. Every system is good for 
> some actions, some is accessible, some is more or less accessible. Anyway, 
> this is Debian list and here we would solve Debian problems, not fight what 
> is better or worse. Linux accessibility is in bad crisis. If we don't become 
> united, linux accessibility will end and many people, who aren't rich won't 
> have any computer. Anybody can't have Mac. Mac cannot be legally installed on 
> another computers than Apple computers.
> 
> 
> Best regards
> 
> 
> Vojta.
> 
> 
> 
> Dne 08. 11. 19 v 18:15 Jean-Philippe MENGUAL napsal(a):
>>> 
>>> Assuming that you still work at Hypra, I don't think that it is
>>> acceptable to use your debian.org e-mail to promote your work place.
>> 
>> This work place works for Debian. So I dont see the problem. It works 
>> not-paid by Debian for Debian, so my job is a volunteer action for Debian. 
>> Thanks to Hypra, more than 500 new users use Debian. So yes, I created a 
>> project where I tried to fund a fulltime team to improve Debian, upstream 
>> and downstream, accessibility. I mix economical action and ethical action.
>> 
>> Note that Debian developers can request for a certificate to show they are 
>> dev, there is not reason then to separate artificially 2 areas if they are 
>> so joint.
>> 
>>> 
>>> Clearly, those e-mail should be removed because they fall under spam or
>>> promotional e-mails.
>> 
>> Remove these about Mac an