Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader
Hi Aaron: On at least 2 instances I asked NVDA if they would make a Linux version? Both times they said "no" While I am only a console user, I've always found ORCA confusing, but 1 of my Linux experts thinks that with a different desktop layout, I might like it better. If there were a graphical layout which felt like win98 that would be better. But even the other day I went on my Wife's windows7 machine, trying to navigate a site I couldn't access in L Y N X, but I certainly didn't find much there which would make me wanna be much in graphical. Chime
Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader
On 12/12/21 04:59, Pawel L. wrote: Hi, I think that the blind Linux community would benefit more from consolidating the knowledge of talented programmers and creating one, but maximally complete screen reader. I am sure that it would be better for all of us to effectively support the development of ORCA, as is the case with NVDA in Windows, than to start new projects. There are many ideas out there, but usually nothing comes of it. Take care, Pawel Just to put in my own two cents as a developer - supporting an existing project and starting an alternative project are not mutually exclusive. One of the great things about open source is that the lessons learned from one project can pretty easily be applied to a different project. There are many reasons why it might work better to start a new project rather than contributing to an existing one. You might want to experiment with concepts that the maintainers of the existing project are not interested in, you might find the existing code base too confusing to start contributing to, you might want to simplify the code base or work in a different language that you are more familiar with. This allows people to experiment, or at least get familiar, with the specific issues surrounding a project. The best aspects of the new project can either be implemented as a patch or pulled into the main project by its maintainers if they see a clear benefit. I'm interested in the comparison to NVDA, though. I don't know the history of the development of that project, or what the main differences in developer acceptance are between NVDA and ORCA. Do you find Windows open source development to be less chaotic than Linux in general, or just in this project specifically? It could make an interesting history. Thanks, Aaron
Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader
Le 12/12/2021 à 16:21, Michael A Ray a écrit : > Orca is never going to adequately cover any application that is not a GTK > application. Never? Qt applications are already covered and as I have heard that there have been progress wrt accessibility of some KDE apps in recent versions, using KDE Framework 5 and Qt5. I will check as soon as I can. > 1. Somebody needs to fix the bug in the sd_espeak module of speech-dispatcher > so > that it does not unload itself randomly. This will make it possible to choose > espeak and not pulse, and still get reliable stability. I concur to what Samuel said: not properly reported bugs will not be fixed. To report a bug in speech-dispatcher you can use the mailing list: https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/speechd-discuss of file an issue in GitHGub: https://github.com/brailcom/speechd/issues To report a bug an orca: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list or on GitLab: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/orca Also I am not sure to understand what you mean writing that "the sd_espeak module of speech-dispatcher so that it does not unload itself randomly" Can you please elaborate? If it is that you have issues switching from a speech synthesizer to another one in the Voices tab of the Screen Reader Preferences window of Orca, well not here and not yet reported by a Slint user or elsewhere that I am aware of. Then, what does mean "make it possible to choose espeak and not pulse"? Do you mean that you suggest to get rid of the features of Speech Dispatcher and let orca implement them internally? If so, good luck to find someone to do it (and what would be the benefit?). > 2. There need to be alternative "factories" chooseable under the Orca > settings. > Currently speech-dispatcher is it. By factory I assume that you mean a speech system, linking screen readers, speech synthesizers and apps processing the audio as does Speech Dispatcher. I am not aware of any other available for Linux than Speech Dispatcher doing that. Further, as for desktops maybe it would be better to enhance what exists than reinvent the wheel? Cheers, Didier
Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader
It is the a new screenreaders Skickat från min iPhone > 12 dec. 2021 kl. 10:59 skrev Pawel L. : > > Hi, > I think that the blind Linux community would benefit more from > consolidating the knowledge of talented programmers and creating one, > but maximally complete screen reader. > > I am sure that it would be better for all of us to effectively support > the development of ORCA, as is the case with NVDA in Windows, than to > start new projects. > > There are many ideas out there, but usually nothing comes of it. > > Take care, > Pawel > >> On 11/5/21, Didier Spaier wrote: >> Hello, >> >> Idem. It says a few things like "web new component" or "terminal, text" >> when you focus something (the kind of object, somehow), that's about it. >> >> They need some time to go beyond that, which is fine, just no need to >> hurry. >> >>> Le 05/11/2021 à 14:58, Vojtech šmiro a écrit : >>> Hello, >>> >>> did you tried: >>> https://github.com/yggdrasil-sr/yggdrasil-prototype/releases/download/v-0.4.20/yggdrasil-prototype.run >>> >>> >>> >>> Dne 05. 11. 21 v 14:21 Didier Spaier napsal(a): Hi, I built it just typing "cargo build" at the root of the source tree. this gave me a binary named yggdrasil-prototype. starting it didn't seem to do anything and no info on the website on how to use it. I don't have the time to investigate further asking questions to the developers, feel free to do it. Me, I will come back later. Didier > Le 05/11/2021 à 13:26, Vojtech šmiro a écrit : > Hello, > > do you heard about this screenreader? It's in Alpha, but it's really > glad to see there is another option to work with linux. I want to > inform many people to be interest in, because the project starts and > every person who is interrested is important.. > > https://yggdrasil-sr.github.io/ > > Take care. > > Best regards > > Vojta. > >>> >> >> >
Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader
Considering that most of Orca's development seems to be taken up by an endless game of whack-a-mole where some website or application does something stupid that makes it inaccessible or at least harder to use than it should be, someone reports the issue on the Orca mailing list, and then the Orca dev comes up with a work around for that bit of bad design, I'd have to agree that the screen reader is probably the smallest part of the overall problem. Of course, filing accessibility bugs or even presenting patches that address accessibility bugs does no good if whoever decides which contributions makes it into official releases deems such bugs unimportant or refuses to let those patches into the releases... and convincing enough of the right people that good design is accessible design and inaccessible design is bad design that this principle becomes industry standard and something taught in every Programming 101 and Web Design 101 course is a social engineering problem of epic proportions.
Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader
Michael A Ray, le dim. 12 déc. 2021 15:21:47 +, a ecrit: > One of the worst things abut Orca is the dependence on speech-dispatcher. Why so? Better fix things than throwing them away. > 1. Somebody needs to fix the bug in the sd_espeak module of > speech-dispatcher so that it does not unload itself randomly. Is this reported somewhere? > 2. There need to be alternative "factories" chooseable under the Orca > settings. Currently speech-dispatcher is it. What is the problem with this? speech-dispatcher then provides the choices between all speech alternatives. Why reimplementing that inside Orca? > Why do so many distros based on Debian or Ubuntu rip out the accessibility > bits from the installer? Because nobody reported to them that they should take care to keep it? Nobody pointed them to https://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Accessibility ? Samuel
Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader
Most of the issues with graphical user interface accessibility under Linux are in the desktop environments and applications, not in the screen reader. Most of the issues are too much choice. Which desktop are you talking about? Accessibility is excellent under both Windows and Mac, compared to Linux. This is in the biggest part because the GUI is baked right into the OS. And there are not a hundred different desktops to choose from. Many of which are developed by people who don't give a damn about accessibility, or even don't know what it is. Orca is never going to adequately cover any application that is not a GTK application. One of the worst things abut Orca is the dependence on speech-dispatcher. Two things need to happen IMHO: 1. Somebody needs to fix the bug in the sd_espeak module of speech-dispatcher so that it does not unload itself randomly. This will make it possible to choose espeak and not pulse, and still get reliable stability. 2. There need to be alternative "factories" chooseable under the Orca settings. Currently speech-dispatcher is it. But accessibility on the Linux desktop will never be a patch on Windows or Mac, just because there are loads of desktops to choose from. And IMHO accessibility starts with the installer. I will only use distros I can install unassisted, and I am 100% blind. Why do so many distros based on Debian or Ubuntu rip out the accessibility bits from the installer? Another reason Windows and Mac are so accessible, is that they are commercial products. They don't really have much choice but work on accessibility, and doing so makes sound commercial sense. Many Open Source projects, including various GUI desktops in Linux, pay scant, or no attention whatsoever to accessibility. Mike Orca is well maintained, but my impression is that some other, necessary components aren't. If someone wants to devote resources to working on graphical desktop accessibility, screen reader development isn't where I would suggest starting. -- Michael A. Ray Analyst/Programmer Witley, Surrey, South-east UK He/him "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -- A. de Saint-Exupery
Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader
On 12/12/21, Jason White wrote: > > On 12/12/21 04:59, Pawel L. wrote: >> I am sure that it would be better for all of us to effectively support >> the development of ORCA, as is the case with NVDA in Windows, than to >> start new projects. > > Most of the issues with graphical user interface accessibility under > Linux are in the desktop environments and applications, not in the > screen reader. > > Orca is well maintained, but my impression is that some other, necessary > components aren't. If someone wants to devote resources to working on > graphical desktop accessibility, screen reader development isn't where I > would suggest starting. Hi.. If you're ever up for it, could you please start a dedicated thread that highlights current graphical user accessibility issues? That way advocates can point to it when asking others to help out. There might be checkpoints that developers still haven't heard of that can be incidentally addressed as packages continue to evolve. Labeling buttons is always the first thing that comes to mind for me because of the work that W3C (World Wide Web Consortium) does toward Internet usability. PS For the unofficial record, I'm in the camp that says concentrating forever limited volunteer developer manpower on fewer projects seems like a good way to go. In fact, the word "humane" comes to mind. Cindy :) -- Cindy-Sue Causey Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA * runs with birdseed *
Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader
So long as a dog will hunt, stay with that dog. When the dog can't hunt any longer for whatever reason, it's time to find a new dog. On Sun, 12 Dec 2021, john doe wrote: > On 12/12/2021 10:59 AM, Pawel L. wrote: > > Hi, > > I think that the blind Linux community would benefit more from > > consolidating the knowledge of talented programmers and creating one, > > but maximally complete screen reader. > > > > I concur. > > -- > John Doe > > >
Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader
On 12/12/21 04:59, Pawel L. wrote: I am sure that it would be better for all of us to effectively support the development of ORCA, as is the case with NVDA in Windows, than to start new projects. Most of the issues with graphical user interface accessibility under Linux are in the desktop environments and applications, not in the screen reader. Orca is well maintained, but my impression is that some other, necessary components aren't. If someone wants to devote resources to working on graphical desktop accessibility, screen reader development isn't where I would suggest starting.
Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader
On 12/12/2021 10:59 AM, Pawel L. wrote: Hi, I think that the blind Linux community would benefit more from consolidating the knowledge of talented programmers and creating one, but maximally complete screen reader. I concur. -- John Doe
Re: Iggdrasil, a new amazing screenreader
Hi, I think that the blind Linux community would benefit more from consolidating the knowledge of talented programmers and creating one, but maximally complete screen reader. I am sure that it would be better for all of us to effectively support the development of ORCA, as is the case with NVDA in Windows, than to start new projects. There are many ideas out there, but usually nothing comes of it. Take care, Pawel On 11/5/21, Didier Spaier wrote: > Hello, > > Idem. It says a few things like "web new component" or "terminal, text" > when you focus something (the kind of object, somehow), that's about it. > > They need some time to go beyond that, which is fine, just no need to > hurry. > > Le 05/11/2021 à 14:58, Vojtech šmiro a écrit : >> Hello, >> >> did you tried: >> https://github.com/yggdrasil-sr/yggdrasil-prototype/releases/download/v-0.4.20/yggdrasil-prototype.run >> >> >> >> Dne 05. 11. 21 v 14:21 Didier Spaier napsal(a): >>> Hi, >>> >>> I built it just typing "cargo build" at the root of the source tree. >>> this gave me a binary named yggdrasil-prototype. >>> >>> starting it didn't seem to do anything and no info on the website on >>> how to use it. >>> >>> I don't have the time to investigate further asking questions to the >>> developers, feel free to do it. Me, I will come back later. >>> >>> Didier >>> >>> Le 05/11/2021 à 13:26, Vojtech šmiro a écrit : Hello, do you heard about this screenreader? It's in Alpha, but it's really glad to see there is another option to work with linux. I want to inform many people to be interest in, because the project starts and every person who is interrested is important.. https://yggdrasil-sr.github.io/ Take care. Best regards Vojta. >>> >> > >
