Re: Accessibility as a reason to switch to XFCE?
Hi, From the experience of Sonar, mentioned by Alejandro, it's possible to make a DE accessible from LXDE. But XFCE seems to stay a good testing project hard to handle for end-user. Best regards, Le 09/11/2013 14:15, Halim Sahin a écrit : Hi all, In my point of view debian should really change it's default desktop to xfce because of the systemd requirement of gnome. I am not happy with current situation but debian support other os's as well and systemd is only available for Linux. At this time I.ll whant to say thx to all people who work on a11y in gnome and debian. Unfortunately some guys in gnome project made anoying decisions. Most are design related. A big mistake is the decision for systemd dependency. It's really bad that new software like systemd or pulseaudio will make things hard to handle in linux based systems. Pulseaudio broke a11y for console screenreaders few years ago and I see no work in that area. Systemd will force gnome to use the linux kernel and so other systems like bsd's will get trouble to use it. @Mario: +1 it was a bad time to freeze wheezy and ship gnome 3.4 but we should make it better in next stable :-). Just my two cents. Halim -- Jean-Philippe MENGUAL accelibreinfo, votre partenaire en informatique adaptée aux déficients visuels Mail: te...@accelibreinfo.eu Site Web: http://www.accelibreinfo.eu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-accessibility-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/527e6f4a.6050...@free.fr
Re: Accessibility as a reason to switch to XFCE?
Hi all, In my point of view debian should really change it's default desktop to xfce because of the systemd requirement of gnome. I am not happy with current situation but debian support other os's as well and systemd is only available for Linux. At this time I.ll whant to say thx to all people who work on a11y in gnome and debian. Unfortunately some guys in gnome project made anoying decisions. Most are design related. A big mistake is the decision for systemd dependency. It's really bad that new software like systemd or pulseaudio will make things hard to handle in linux based systems. Pulseaudio broke a11y for console screenreaders few years ago and I see no work in that area. Systemd will force gnome to use the linux kernel and so other systems like bsd's will get trouble to use it. @Mario: +1 it was a bad time to freeze wheezy and ship gnome 3.4 but we should make it better in next stable :-). Just my two cents. Halim -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-accessibility-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131109131546.GA31071@gentoo.local
Re: Accessibility as a reason to switch to XFCE?
Piñeiro writes: > Taking into account that the previous default desktop was GNOME (so > GNOME Shell), this seems to suggest that GNOME accessibility support is > broken. Probably some people think that because they are testing the > accessibility support with the current Debian stable which still uses > GNOME 3.4. This release was accessible enough for testing, getting > feedback and solving bugs, but it is true that GNOME 3.4 was not > end-user ready as far as accessibility support is concerned. And that is, unfortunately, the root cause of the issue. If GNOME knew that 3.4 was not end-user ready for users which need accessibility, frankly, GNOME should never have release 3.4 as a stable release. Debian had basically no choice but to ship this, since it was given to "us" by upstream. Now, the timing was of course bad, but since we were about to release, we basically had to ship with 3.4. Going back to GNOME 2 (which I would have LOVED!!!) was just no option. > But 3.4 was released one year and a half ago, and the situation has > improved a lot since then. This doesn't change the situation for Debian Stable. We do not do major version upgrades in Stable, Period, and end of story. So we are stuck with a barely usable desktop in Debian Stable, accessibility-wise, which is very very bad. > Right now the feedback from the Orca screen reader users' list with > regards to the accessibility of GNOME Shell is positive. Thats good to hear. I gave up on GNOME completely when GNOME 3 came out. Maybe I should give it a try, again. That said, thanks for your input on this thread, it is very much appreciated. -- CYa, ⡍⠁⠗⠊⠕ | Debian Developer http://debian.org/> .''`. | Get my public key via finger mlang/k...@db.debian.org : :' : | 1024D/7FC1A0854909BCCDBE6C102DDFFC022A6B113E44 `. `' `- http://delysid.org/> http://www.staff.tugraz.at/mlang/> -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-accessibility-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/874n7p1w7t@fx.delysid.org
RE: [orca-list] Accessibility as a reason to switch to XFCE? (fwd)
--- jude Avoid the Gates Of Hell, use Linux! -- Forwarded message -- Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 18:16:39 From: Alex Midence To: 'Jude DaShiell' , orca-l...@gnome.org Subject: RE: [orca-list] Accessibility as a reason to switch to XFCE? (fwd) Man, I hope they don't do that. They ought to just go up to Gnome 3.10. It's miles and miles ahead of 3.4 with stuff like pdf accessibility and all the other improvements to Orca that are about to start coming out. Unless you need to run a light desktop system, I see no reason for anyone to switch to XFCE over Gnome. Alex M -Original Message- From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-boun...@gnome.org] On Behalf Of Jude DaShiell Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 5:00 PM To: orca-l...@gnome.org Subject: [orca-list] Accessibility as a reason to switch to XFCE? (fwd) --- jude Avoid the Gates Of Hell, use Linux! -- Forwarded message -- Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 12:38:49 From: Pi?eiro To: debian-upstr...@lists.debian.org, debian-accessibility@lists.debian.org Subject: Accessibility as a reason to switch to XFCE? Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 17:39:08 + (UTC) Resent-From: debian-accessibility@lists.debian.org Hi everybody, I'm Alejandro Pi?eiro, maintainer of ATK (accessibility toolkit), implementor of the ATK support for Clutter/GNOME-shell, and one of the coordinators of GNOME Accessibility team. Some people pointed out a recent commit in Debian [1] and asked me some questions. As probably it is worth having this discussion publicly, I'm sending this email. > This will be re-evaluated before jessie is frozen. The evaluation will > start around the point of DebConf (August 2014). If at that point > gnome looks like a better choice, it'll go back as the default. > Some criteria for that choice will include: > * The state of accessability support, particularly for the blind. Taking into account that the previous default desktop was GNOME (so GNOME Shell), this seems to suggest that GNOME accessibility support is broken. Probably some people think that because they are testing the accessibility support with the current Debian stable which still uses GNOME 3.4. This release was accessible enough for testing, getting feedback and solving bugs, but it is true that GNOME 3.4 was not end-user ready as far as accessibility support is concerned. But 3.4 was released one year and a half ago, and the situation has improved a lot since then. Right now the feedback from the Orca screen reader users' list with regards to the accessibility of GNOME Shell is positive. That was true in 2012 with GNOME 3.6 [2], and it remains true to this day. In fact, Jonathan Nadeau, a developer who is blind and is maintaining a distro for users that are blind, ships GNOME 3.8 as the default desktop environment [3]. And AFAIK, they will move to GNOME 3.10. In any case, some people could argue that although those releases are better, it is not worth it to upgrade from GNOME 3.4 if XFCE has proper accessibility support now. But, the problem is that XFCE accessibility development has been on hold. Right now I would classify XFCE's accessibility support as no better than that of GNOME 3.4's accessibility support. It is good enough for testing, getting feedback and solving bugs. But it is not end-user ready. What's missing? As you can see on XFCE roadmap about accessibility [4]: * Accessibility is not enabled by default, nor is it always on. It's enabled by default and always on in GNOME starting with GNOME 3.6. * The Thunar file manager fails to emit accessible events when the selection changes. This means that as Orca users arrow among files, Orca cannot tell them what file they just moved to. Similar problems are also present for Xfdesktop. * The Xfce4-panel has a number of accessibility issues that make it hard to use by users who are blind. So, there may be reasons for Debian to switch to XFCE. But IMHO, accessibility is not one of them. Best regards [1] http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=tasksel/tasksel.git;a=commitdiff;h=dfca4 06eb694e0ac00ea04b12fc912237e01c9b5 [2] https://mail.gnome.org/archives/orca-list/2012-October/msg00202.html [3] https://mail.gnome.org/archives/orca-list/2013-May/msg00171.html [4] http://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.10/roadmap/accessibility Alejandro Pi?eiro -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-accessibility-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52792d29.4080...@igalia.com ___ orca-list mailing list orca-l...@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca. The manual is at ht
Re: Accessibility as a reason to switch to XFCE?
On 11/05/2013 12:48 PM, Cyril Brulebois wrote: > I think the point behind accessibility's being mentioned was to > make sure the default desktop is accessible. As the Orca maintainer, I really appreciate that. :) Similarly, I really appreciate the work done by the XFCE guys. They have been great in terms of working with me to improve the accessibility support of their desktop. But they are an extremely small team. And that work went on hold in 2011. Given the significant accessibility issues in XFCE's panel, file manager, and desktop, switching to XFCE arguably means introducing accessibility regressions. That decision is, of course, yours to make. I just wouldn't cite accessibility as a reason for making it, were I you. FWIW. --joanie -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-accessibility-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/527937db.8080...@igalia.com
Re: Accessibility as a reason to switch to XFCE?
Hi, and thanks for your input. Piñeiro (2013-11-05): > So, there may be reasons for Debian to switch to XFCE. But IMHO, > accessibility is not one of them. Yes, initial a11y support in Gnome 3.x wasn't ideal, but thanks to Emilio (if I remember correctly) we got some improved support right on time for wheezy (in GDM specifically, still if I remember correctly). I think the point behind accessibility's being mentioned was to make sure the default desktop is accessible. I don't think anyone suggested that current Xfce accessibility support is better than Gnome's. Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Accessibility as a reason to switch to XFCE?
Hi everybody, I'm Alejandro Piñeiro, maintainer of ATK (accessibility toolkit), implementor of the ATK support for Clutter/GNOME-shell, and one of the coordinators of GNOME Accessibility team. Some people pointed out a recent commit in Debian [1] and asked me some questions. As probably it is worth having this discussion publicly, I'm sending this email. > This will be re-evaluated before jessie is frozen. The evaluation will > start around the point of DebConf (August 2014). If at that point gnome > looks like a better choice, it'll go back as the default. > Some criteria for that choice will include: > * The state of accessability support, particularly for the blind. Taking into account that the previous default desktop was GNOME (so GNOME Shell), this seems to suggest that GNOME accessibility support is broken. Probably some people think that because they are testing the accessibility support with the current Debian stable which still uses GNOME 3.4. This release was accessible enough for testing, getting feedback and solving bugs, but it is true that GNOME 3.4 was not end-user ready as far as accessibility support is concerned. But 3.4 was released one year and a half ago, and the situation has improved a lot since then. Right now the feedback from the Orca screen reader users' list with regards to the accessibility of GNOME Shell is positive. That was true in 2012 with GNOME 3.6 [2], and it remains true to this day. In fact, Jonathan Nadeau, a developer who is blind and is maintaining a distro for users that are blind, ships GNOME 3.8 as the default desktop environment [3]. And AFAIK, they will move to GNOME 3.10. In any case, some people could argue that although those releases are better, it is not worth it to upgrade from GNOME 3.4 if XFCE has proper accessibility support now. But, the problem is that XFCE accessibility development has been on hold. Right now I would classify XFCE's accessibility support as no better than that of GNOME 3.4's accessibility support. It is good enough for testing, getting feedback and solving bugs. But it is not end-user ready. What's missing? As you can see on XFCE roadmap about accessibility [4]: * Accessibility is not enabled by default, nor is it always on. It's enabled by default and always on in GNOME starting with GNOME 3.6. * The Thunar file manager fails to emit accessible events when the selection changes. This means that as Orca users arrow among files, Orca cannot tell them what file they just moved to. Similar problems are also present for Xfdesktop. * The Xfce4-panel has a number of accessibility issues that make it hard to use by users who are blind. So, there may be reasons for Debian to switch to XFCE. But IMHO, accessibility is not one of them. Best regards [1] http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=tasksel/tasksel.git;a=commitdiff;h=dfca406eb694e0ac00ea04b12fc912237e01c9b5 [2] https://mail.gnome.org/archives/orca-list/2012-October/msg00202.html [3] https://mail.gnome.org/archives/orca-list/2013-May/msg00171.html [4] http://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.10/roadmap/accessibility Alejandro Piñeiro -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-accessibility-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52792d29.4080...@igalia.com
