Re: To all candidates: Debian and people with disabilities

[Devin Prater]

Gas is rather expensive these days. :D How would you propose we improve the
emotional response? I've written plenty of blog posts on
write.as/devinprater (some on other operating systems but a good bit about
Linux). I'm not very good at making videos, but I can write and edit.
Devin Prater
r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com




On Fri, Apr 1, 2022 at 1:24 AM Hideki Yamane  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 23:37:03 +0100
> Jean-Philippe MENGUAL  wrote:
> > I dont think DPL can influence this, indeed.
>
>  DPL can influence it, IMHO. But, of course cannot force it.
>  Just point "the direction" and show the idea behind it and discuss -
>  that's what I want to do.
>
>
> > Difficult question indeed. Most information are on
> > wiki.debian.org/accessibility.
>
>  "Pulling" the information is a bit hard these days since there are
>  a lot of info and not well constructed. And there is no "feelings"
>  with current situations. Improving accessibility is a good thing,
>  but push people to do so, we need some emotional "gas" to heat our
>  heart. So, it is important that "pushing" information about current
>  situation of accessibility in Debian and what you want to do with
>  it is necessary, IMO.
>
>
> --
> Hideki Yamane 
>

Re: To all candidates: Debian and people with disabilities

[Hideki Yamane]

Hi,

On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 23:37:03 +0100
Jean-Philippe MENGUAL  wrote:
> I dont think DPL can influence this, indeed. 

 DPL can influence it, IMHO. But, of course cannot force it.
 Just point "the direction" and show the idea behind it and discuss -
 that's what I want to do.


> Difficult question indeed. Most information are on 
> wiki.debian.org/accessibility.

 "Pulling" the information is a bit hard these days since there are
 a lot of info and not well constructed. And there is no "feelings"
 with current situations. Improving accessibility is a good thing,
 but push people to do so, we need some emotional "gas" to heat our
 heart. So, it is important that "pushing" information about current
 situation of accessibility in Debian and what you want to do with
 it is necessary, IMO.
 

-- 
Hideki Yamane 

Re: To all candidates: Debian and people with disabilities

[Samuel Thibault]

Hello,

Wouter Verhelst, le mar. 29 mars 2022 20:00:19 +0200, a ecrit:
> On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 09:23:38AM +0100, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > Devin Prater, le lun. 21 mars 2022 22:10:15 -0500, a ecrit:
> > > As far as backports, my problem is enabling it. Normal desktop users 
> > > probably
> > > won't even know what that is, and the syntax is rather ugly, to me at 
> > > least.
> > 
> > Ok, that's one point that could be worked on: creating an easy way to
> > enable backports.
> 
> This is what my project, "extrepo", wants to accomplish: to make it
> easily possible to enable repositories that are not enabled by default.

Nice!

I added a not on the accessibility wiki page.

Samuel

Re: To all candidates: Debian and people with disabilities

[Wouter Verhelst]

Hi Samuel,

On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 09:23:38AM +0100, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Devin Prater, le lun. 21 mars 2022 22:10:15 -0500, a ecrit:
> > As far as backports, my problem is enabling it. Normal desktop users 
> > probably
> > won't even know what that is, and the syntax is rather ugly, to me at least.
> 
> Ok, that's one point that could be worked on: creating an easy way to
> enable backports.

This is what my project, "extrepo", wants to accomplish: to make it
easily possible to enable repositories that are not enabled by default.
You can enable backports on bullseye by way of the following two
commands:

sudo apt install extrepo
sudo extrepo enable debian_backports

(there are a lot of other repositories you can enable that way, btw; to
get a full list, run "extrepo search", although you might want to pipe
it into a pager ;-) )

> At least as a question in the installer,

Adding an installer module for extrepo is on my TODO list, but I do have
a lot on my plate and thus am not sure I'll be able to finish that work
in time for the release.

[...]
-- 
 w@uter.{be,co.za}
wouter@{grep.be,fosdem.org,debian.org}

Re: To all candidates: Debian and people with disabilities

[Devin Prater]

Yeah, right now there is a device being tested, the NLS EReader. This is a
braille display that the National Library Service for the Blind in the US
is having companies develop so that they can then distribute them, for
free, to their patrons. Two versions are being tested, one from the
Humanware manufacturer, and another from Zoomax. The one from Zoomax works
currently, in at least BRLTTY 6.4, and work is being done to complete
support for the Humanware model. So I'm glad device support can be added in
stable like that. I only have access to the Humanware model, and some
devices, like Android phones, don't support it, while others, like iOS
systems, have... unfinished support for it.
Devin Prater
r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com




On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 6:34 AM Samuel Thibault 
wrote:

> Jean-Philippe MENGUAL, le mar. 22 mars 2022 11:51:43 +0100, a ecrit:
> > If it adds a driver for your device, indeed, a backport is a good
> > idea.
>
> Note that sometimes supporting a new device does not actually require
> a completely new driver, only a small addition to recognize the USB
> device. That can be added in stable updates without problem.
>
> Samuel
>
>

Re: To all candidates: Debian and people with disabilities

[Samuel Thibault]

Jean-Philippe MENGUAL, le mar. 22 mars 2022 11:51:43 +0100, a ecrit:
> If it adds a driver for your device, indeed, a backport is a good
> idea.

Note that sometimes supporting a new device does not actually require
a completely new driver, only a small addition to recognize the USB
device. That can be added in stable updates without problem.

Samuel

Re: To all candidates: Debian and people with disabilities

[Devin Prater]

So, the Terminal issue was fixed some time ago, so we don't have to worry
about that. That was just an example of a bug which *has* happened before.
I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough.
Devin Prater
r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com




On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 5:52 AM Jean-Philippe MENGUAL 
wrote:

>
> Le 22/03/2022 à 04:10, Devin Prater a écrit :
> > Thanks. I tried to think of good, useful questions to spark discussion,
> > but I don't know much about the structure of Debian or its project
> > leaders. I do think, though, that if the project leader keeps
> > accessibility in mind, this will filter down throughout Debian as a
> whole.
>
> You are right, and thanks to give visibility fot this matter here.
>
> >
> > As far as backports, my problem is enabling it. Normal desktop users
> > probably won't even know what that is, and the syntax is rather ugly, to
> > me at least. I'd personally like to see accessibility on the same level
> > as security or very important bug fix updates, because sometimes they
> > are, especially when something like the Terminal bug happened with Orca,
> > where Orca couldn't read the Mate Terminal. Another thing is braille
> > support. BRLTTY, the package for driving Braille displays, gets updated
> > like once every three months or so with support for new Braille displays.
>
> What you describe are issues mainly related to upstream development. The
> fact Orca has problems in a terminal (I think I know this) should be
> reported and discussedon the orcamailing list, as it is the place where
> the development happens. Debian is only a distribution, ie. a place to
> make easier getting packages usable. But a distro should not patch so
> much a program, in particular it cannot bring new features or fix bugs.
> Some maintainers do, but often because they maintain the package and the
> program upstream. It is not the case for graphical accessibility tools,
> where maintainers in Debian (thanks Samuel, Paul and few others) are
> often different from the upstream developers. Tools such as
> speech-dispatcher are maintained by accessibility team upstream and in
> Debian, for instance.
>
> So the best thing you can do to report such problems is writing to the
> orca mailing list so that they are in the todo list of the developer.
> And indeed, Orca in a terminal is not optimum.
>
> For braille, the thing is to know if a new version of brltty supports a
> display you have and which is not yet supported in stable. Ti is a kind
> of program where upgrades are not required as few new features appear,
> except sometimes (cut and paste recently introduced in graphical
> interface). So if it adds a driver for your device, indeed, a backport
> is a good idea.
>
>
> >
> > This isn't to say that Debian's accessibility is awful; it's one of the
> > best among all Linux distributions, because the user is guided from
> > installation to first system boot. It's nice. I know the project leader
> > can't be everything to all people, and there are legal, security, and
> > other community issues, but it would be nice if whoever is elected to
> > remember us, and setting aside a day to work on accessibility issues
> > would be an amazing start. And since Debian is the root of a lot of
> > other distributions, and even the default container in Google's Crostini
> > Linux thing, we can show both other FOSS projects, and big
> > corporations (corpses) that FOSS doesn't have to only be for people who
> > are privileged enough to have all senses and use of their bodies and
> minds.
>
> +1
>
> > Devin Prater
> > r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 5:46 PM Samuel Thibault  > > wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > Devin, thanks for bringing accessibility questions in :)
> >
> > Jean-Philippe MENGUAL, le lun. 21 mars 2022 23:37:03 +0100, a ecrit:
> >  > Again, not sur the DPL can have a crucial role about this,
> >  > unfortunately.
> >
> > I agree, a DPL cannot make current maintainers magically find time to
> > work on issues :)
> >
> >  > Perhaps, however, in order to give more visibility to the topic,
> he
> >  > may ping them more frequently during his public statements
> (Debconf,
> >  > bits, debian-news) so make them talk about their work progress.
> >
> > Agreed as well: advertising the will of Debian to progress on this
> > front, and that help is welcome, *can* make new maintainers come up.
> >
> > Samuel
> >
>
>

Re: To all candidates: Debian and people with disabilities

[Jean-Philippe MENGUAL]

Le 22/03/2022 à 04:10, Devin Prater a écrit :
Thanks. I tried to think of good, useful questions to spark discussion, 
but I don't know much about the structure of Debian or its project 
leaders. I do think, though, that if the project leader keeps 
accessibility in mind, this will filter down throughout Debian as a whole.


You are right, and thanks to give visibility fot this matter here.



As far as backports, my problem is enabling it. Normal desktop users 
probably won't even know what that is, and the syntax is rather ugly, to 
me at least. I'd personally like to see accessibility on the same level 
as security or very important bug fix updates, because sometimes they 
are, especially when something like the Terminal bug happened with Orca, 
where Orca couldn't read the Mate Terminal. Another thing is braille 
support. BRLTTY, the package for driving Braille displays, gets updated 
like once every three months or so with support for new Braille displays.


What you describe are issues mainly related to upstream development. The 
fact Orca has problems in a terminal (I think I know this) should be 
reported and discussedon the orcamailing list, as it is the place where 
the development happens. Debian is only a distribution, ie. a place to 
make easier getting packages usable. But a distro should not patch so 
much a program, in particular it cannot bring new features or fix bugs. 
Some maintainers do, but often because they maintain the package and the 
program upstream. It is not the case for graphical accessibility tools, 
where maintainers in Debian (thanks Samuel, Paul and few others) are 
often different from the upstream developers. Tools such as 
speech-dispatcher are maintained by accessibility team upstream and in 
Debian, for instance.


So the best thing you can do to report such problems is writing to the 
orca mailing list so that they are in the todo list of the developer. 
And indeed, Orca in a terminal is not optimum.


For braille, the thing is to know if a new version of brltty supports a 
display you have and which is not yet supported in stable. Ti is a kind 
of program where upgrades are not required as few new features appear, 
except sometimes (cut and paste recently introduced in graphical 
interface). So if it adds a driver for your device, indeed, a backport 
is a good idea.





This isn't to say that Debian's accessibility is awful; it's one of the 
best among all Linux distributions, because the user is guided from 
installation to first system boot. It's nice. I know the project leader 
can't be everything to all people, and there are legal, security, and 
other community issues, but it would be nice if whoever is elected to 
remember us, and setting aside a day to work on accessibility issues 
would be an amazing start. And since Debian is the root of a lot of 
other distributions, and even the default container in Google's Crostini 
Linux thing, we can show both other FOSS projects, and big 
corporations (corpses) that FOSS doesn't have to only be for people who 
are privileged enough to have all senses and use of their bodies and minds.


+1


Devin Prater
r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com 




On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 5:46 PM Samuel Thibault > wrote:


Hello,

Devin, thanks for bringing accessibility questions in :)

Jean-Philippe MENGUAL, le lun. 21 mars 2022 23:37:03 +0100, a ecrit:
 > Again, not sur the DPL can have a crucial role about this,
 > unfortunately.

I agree, a DPL cannot make current maintainers magically find time to
work on issues :)

 > Perhaps, however, in order to give more visibility to the topic, he
 > may ping them more frequently during his public statements (Debconf,
 > bits, debian-news) so make them talk about their work progress.

Agreed as well: advertising the will of Debian to progress on this
front, and that help is welcome, *can* make new maintainers come up.

Samuel

Re: To all candidates: Debian and people with disabilities

[Samuel Thibault]

Hello,

Devin Prater, le lun. 21 mars 2022 22:10:15 -0500, a ecrit:
> As far as backports, my problem is enabling it. Normal desktop users probably
> won't even know what that is, and the syntax is rather ugly, to me at least.

Ok, that's one point that could be worked on: creating an easy way to
enable backports. At least as a question in the installer, and possibly
in e.g. synaptic or such after installation. Please report this idea to
the debian installer team and to the synaptic package.

> I'd personally like to see accessibility on the same level as security or very
> important bug fix updates, because sometimes they are,

Actually this is already considered so. For instance, two important
accessibility fixes have gone into the dot-release that will happen this
week-end.

But like security, just uploading a new version of software to Debian
stable is dangerous for stability. New software do not only have fixes,
but also do have regression as well, that's why the release team only
accepts small targetted fixes in Debian stable, whose changes can be
closely scrutinized to make sure they aren't bringing regressions.

> especially when something like the Terminal bug happened with Orca,
> where Orca couldn't read the Mate Terminal.

I'm not aware of the issue?
Bugs that aren't reported are bugs that won't be fixed ;)

> Another thing is braille support. BRLTTY, the package for driving
> Braille displays, gets updated like once every three months or so with
> support for new Braille displays.

That is what backports is for, just like it is for the Linux kernel when
people buy newer hardware. So we're back to the question at the top.

> it would be nice if whoever is elected to remember us, and setting
> aside a day to work on accessibility issues would be an amazing start.

Promoting awareness of accessibility issues in Debian communication
would be the role of a DPL, yes.

But I don't think it would have to be for the DPL to lead work on
accessibility: *anybody* can do that, so let's not put the load over
somebody who will already have a lot to do.

Really, leading work on accessibility is mostly about taking the time
to identify a problem, discussing with various teams to find out where
it can be fixed, and then finding volunteers to work on the fix. One
doesn't even need to know programming to do this, and this does not have
to be just one person to do it (otherwise things will move, yes, but at
a very slow pace).

Samuel

Re: To all candidates: Debian and people with disabilities

[Devin Prater]

Thanks. I tried to think of good, useful questions to spark discussion, but
I don't know much about the structure of Debian or its project leaders. I
do think, though, that if the project leader keeps accessibility in mind,
this will filter down throughout Debian as a whole.

As far as backports, my problem is enabling it. Normal desktop users
probably won't even know what that is, and the syntax is rather ugly, to me
at least. I'd personally like to see accessibility on the same level as
security or very important bug fix updates, because sometimes they are,
especially when something like the Terminal bug happened with Orca, where
Orca couldn't read the Mate Terminal. Another thing is braille support.
BRLTTY, the package for driving Braille displays, gets updated like once
every three months or so with support for new Braille displays.

This isn't to say that Debian's accessibility is awful; it's one of the
best among all Linux distributions, because the user is guided from
installation to first system boot. It's nice. I know the project leader
can't be everything to all people, and there are legal, security, and other
community issues, but it would be nice if whoever is elected to remember
us, and setting aside a day to work on accessibility issues would be an
amazing start. And since Debian is the root of a lot of other
distributions, and even the default container in Google's Crostini Linux
thing, we can show both other FOSS projects, and big corporations (corpses)
that FOSS doesn't have to only be for people who are privileged enough to
have all senses and use of their bodies and minds.
Devin Prater
r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com




On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 5:46 PM Samuel Thibault 
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Devin, thanks for bringing accessibility questions in :)
>
> Jean-Philippe MENGUAL, le lun. 21 mars 2022 23:37:03 +0100, a ecrit:
> > Again, not sur the DPL can have a crucial role about this,
> > unfortunately.
>
> I agree, a DPL cannot make current maintainers magically find time to
> work on issues :)
>
> > Perhaps, however, in order to give more visibility to the topic, he
> > may ping them more frequently during his public statements (Debconf,
> > bits, debian-news) so make them talk about their work progress.
>
> Agreed as well: advertising the will of Debian to progress on this
> front, and that help is welcome, *can* make new maintainers come up.
>
> Samuel
>
>

Re: To all candidates: Debian and people with disabilities

[Samuel Thibault]

Hello,

Devin, thanks for bringing accessibility questions in :)

Jean-Philippe MENGUAL, le lun. 21 mars 2022 23:37:03 +0100, a ecrit:
> Again, not sur the DPL can have a crucial role about this,
> unfortunately.

I agree, a DPL cannot make current maintainers magically find time to
work on issues :)

> Perhaps, however, in order to give more visibility to the topic, he
> may ping them more frequently during his public statements (Debconf,
> bits, debian-news) so make them talk about their work progress.

Agreed as well: advertising the will of Debian to progress on this
front, and that help is welcome, *can* make new maintainers come up.

Samuel

Re: To all candidates: Debian and people with disabilities

[Jean-Philippe MENGUAL]

Le 21/03/2022 à 00:07, Hideki Yamane a écrit :

Hi,

On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 12:09:24 -0500
Devin Prater  wrote:

* Have you heard of the Debian Accessibility group?


  Sorry, no.

  It means that there's an opportunity to people like me can know it more
  if the Debian Accessibility group could show their duties and activities :)



* Currently, Debian backports is how people with disabilities can get the
most up-to-date accessibility fixes and improvements while remaining on a
stable base system. For example, the newest version of the Orca screen
reader, with all of its fixes, and newest version of ATSPI, the thing that
makes Orca able to talk to applications. Would you be willing to
entertain the idea of moving those updates directly to Debian stable?


  Yes, as I said in my platform.


I dont think DPL can influence this, indeed. It si really a discussion 
with debian-release, and it is not fully trivial, because orca depends 
on at-spi and upgrading this can have some consequences on the 
accessibility. So it is not unfeasible, but not trivial





 Provide better Debian “Experience” for our contributors and users.

We are developing Debian a lot day by day, but it seems that won’t reach
most of our users. I’m not sure what is the better way to give more values
(providing easy access to testing/unstable in d-i? more updates to stable?),
but it’s wonderful if we can.


  We need some coordination to achieve this, but worth trying.



* How would you present Debian to a group of people with disabilities? What
reasons would you give them for why they should consider Debian?


  Honestly, I don't have enough information for that.

  It means that YOU people with disabilities need to show what's good/bad
  currently in Debian and what should be done in the future, then discuss
  with others. Something clear to you is sometimes not clear to me, please
  tell us :)


Difficult question indeed. Most information are on 
wiki.debian.org/accessibility.






* In many desktop environments, a user cannot use their assistive
technologies effectively unless they find and check a box enabling the use
of assistive technologies. Do you think that this is good and fair to users?


  Yes and No.
  
  I'm Japanese and not good at English, so want to use Japanese in

  the desktop environment but I should choose Japanese in the installer
  that shows in English. It's fair since most people can recognize English
  more than Japanese. There is some limitation in the user interface and
  prefer majority is reasonable.
   
  However, adding Accessibility software by default is not hard, IMHO.

  Installing Accessibility by default and setting "minimum desktop" checkbox
  for people who don't need it would be better (of course, it also needs
  some coordination to do so).
It had been proposed at debconf 2015 and, IIRC, done in most dekstops 
(enabled accessibility). But it does not warranty they will work as most 
of them are not ready technically without major tweaks in configuration, 
and it depends on toolkit. Again, not sur the DPL can have a crucial 
role about this, unfortunately. Perhaps, however, in order to give more 
visibility to the topic, he may ping them more frequently during his 
public statements (Debconf, bits, debian-news) so make them talk about 
their work progress.


Best regards