Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Holger Wansing]

Hi,

Cyril Brulebois  wrote (Sun, 12 May 2024 08:54:11 +0200):
> Keeping the whole git history of tasksel without its tag is probably
> fine, in case anyone needs to dig up why this thing is done that way,
> but I'm not sure we should keep tasksel entries in debian/changelog; I
> would probably only keep the blendsel entry, adding a reference to the
> version of tasksel it was forked off from. Unless some others feel
> strongly we should keep the whole tasksel history in debian/changelog?

I only kept that for completeness; didn't intended to keep it on the long
run. Now cleaned up.

> I've fixed a few minor things for the rename. It looks to me the README
> could probably be stripped down to mention blendsel's being a fork of
> tasksel, and pointing at tasksel's README for more information. Less
> duplication would be best (and I'm not sure how current the contents are
> anyway). Ditto for tasks/README.

Adapting READMEs is my todo list.

> I think you know best how to adjust README.translators :)
> 
> I'm happy to upload it as-is (modulo debian/changelog), but I suspect
> it'd make sense to adjust tasks/ before doing so? Happy either way.

I would like to leave it as is for now.
Thank you very much for taking care of this thingy!

> > - I prepared a change in pkgsel, to call blendsel depending on the
> >   descision, if Debian pure blends are wanted or not.
> >   See https://salsa.debian.org/holgerw/pkgsel/
> 
> That I didn't check yet, my focus is on the current blocker (as far as
> the DM vs. DD limitation is concerned).

Ok, fine with me.
Just wanted to illustrate to whole idea behind this approach.

> > Anyway, I think I have it running so far, the blendsel dialog appears
> > and shows the items to select; I'm attaching a screenshot showing the 
> > current state (please note, that the dialog shows three desktop environments
> > as placeholder for now; the tasksel - and therefore blendsel as well -
> > logic does not allow to have packages|tasks|blends listed that don't
> > have the corresponding task-* packages in the archive).
> 
> Understood, but please let me know if it makes sense to have them in the
> 0.1 upload, or if you'd like to introduce them in 0.2 once 0.1 has been
> accepted.

I would like to keep that for future releases, even if I already went one step
further: thanks to Phil's Salsa CI black-magic tests it's proven that basically
it works in the wild as expected. Thanks Phil!

> > The template should be rephrased, I would ask for review on
> > debian-l10n-english when the time comes, but I guess there is still
> > time for that...
> 
> You should talk to our beloved l10n coordinator!

Need to find some time when being along at home, to prevent my wife from
pondering "Hmm, Holger is getting bewildered, he's having a discussion with 
himself!" :-)))


> And yeah, lintian/bookworm reports some things we don't normally do:
> 
> W: blendsel: using-first-person-in-templates blendsel/tasks [templates:16]
> 
> Seriously though, I'm not familiar with the semantics behind /first vs.
> /tasks in tasksel. Do we want/need the same semantics in blendsel?

I already realized, that blendsel/first is not used at all, so that can go away
I think.

> I think we should have lintian-overrides for the main package, just like
> tasksel, at least for those (again, only running lintian/bookworm):
> 
> E: blendsel: no-debconf-config
> W: blendsel: debconf-is-not-a-registry 
> [usr/lib/blendsel/blendsel-debconf:3]

Done.

> Finally, this should probably go away from both packages, I don't even
> remember having managed that package:
> 
> Conflicts: base-config (<< 2.32)
> 
> (And indeed, that was 20 years ago.)

Done.
So ready for first upload! Get the ball rolling :-)


> Bonus points: maybe clean up tasksel's debian/source/lintian-overrides?
> 

On the todo list now.



Holger


-- 
Holger Wansing 
PGP-Fingerprint: 496A C6E8 1442 4B34 8508  3529 59F1 87CA 156E B076

Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Cyril Brulebois]

Hallo wieder,

TL;DR = blendsel looks uploadable, even if that mail looks long and full
of nitpicks, that's all they are: minor things. A bunch of them being in
passing comments about tasksel itself. ;)

Holger Wansing  (2024-05-09):
> - I adapted tasksel, to become an installer for Debian pure blends. The
>   new package is blendsel, see https://salsa.debian.org/holgerw/blendsel/

Now moved under installer-team's namespace.

Keeping the whole git history of tasksel without its tag is probably
fine, in case anyone needs to dig up why this thing is done that way,
but I'm not sure we should keep tasksel entries in debian/changelog; I
would probably only keep the blendsel entry, adding a reference to the
version of tasksel it was forked off from. Unless some others feel
strongly we should keep the whole tasksel history in debian/changelog?

I've fixed a few minor things for the rename. It looks to me the README
could probably be stripped down to mention blendsel's being a fork of
tasksel, and pointing at tasksel's README for more information. Less
duplication would be best (and I'm not sure how current the contents are
anyway). Ditto for tasks/README.

I think you know best how to adjust README.translators :)

I'm happy to upload it as-is (modulo debian/changelog), but I suspect
it'd make sense to adjust tasks/ before doing so? Happy either way.

> - I prepared a change in pkgsel, to call blendsel depending on the
>   descision, if Debian pure blends are wanted or not.
>   See https://salsa.debian.org/holgerw/pkgsel/

That I didn't check yet, my focus is on the current blocker (as far as
the DM vs. DD limitation is concerned).

> Anyway, I think I have it running so far, the blendsel dialog appears
> and shows the items to select; I'm attaching a screenshot showing the 
> current state (please note, that the dialog shows three desktop environments
> as placeholder for now; the tasksel - and therefore blendsel as well -
> logic does not allow to have packages|tasks|blends listed that don't
> have the corresponding task-* packages in the archive).

Understood, but please let me know if it makes sense to have them in the
0.1 upload, or if you'd like to introduce them in 0.2 once 0.1 has been
accepted.

> The template should be rephrased, I would ask for review on
> debian-l10n-english when the time comes, but I guess there is still
> time for that...

You should talk to our beloved l10n coordinator!

And yeah, lintian/bookworm reports some things we don't normally do:

W: blendsel: using-first-person-in-templates blendsel/tasks [templates:16]

Seriously though, I'm not familiar with the semantics behind /first vs.
/tasks in tasksel. Do we want/need the same semantics in blendsel?


I think we should have lintian-overrides for the main package, just like
tasksel, at least for those (again, only running lintian/bookworm):

E: blendsel: no-debconf-config
W: blendsel: debconf-is-not-a-registry [usr/lib/blendsel/blendsel-debconf:3]


Finally, this should probably go away from both packages, I don't even
remember having managed that package:

Conflicts: base-config (<< 2.32)

(And indeed, that was 20 years ago.)


Bonus points: maybe clean up tasksel's debian/source/lintian-overrides?


Cheers,
-- 
Cyril Brulebois (k...@debian.org)
D-I release manager -- Release team member -- Freelance Consultant


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Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Philip Hands]

Philip Hands  writes:

> which when tested on openQA looks like this:
>
>   https://openqa.debian.net/tests/260723

I got bored waiting for the timeout, so sent that mail before the job
had ended.  The bit you want to see is:

  https://openqa.debian.net/tests/260723#step/grub/3

Cheers, Phil.
-- 
Philip Hands -- https://hands.com/~phil


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Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Philip Hands]

Hi Holger,

Well done for deciding to put your shoulder to this old rock, I think we've
got a pretty good chance of getting to the top of the mountain this time :-)

Holger Wansing  writes:

> I did some testing in d-i, however that's tricky:
> testing is problematic as long as the new blendsel package is not in the
> archive, and the same with the changed pkgsel.
> So I had to "live-patch" the d-i for testing of blendsel, and therefore
> I cannot provide a working test image or the like (or I don't know how).

It is possible to persuade salsa-CI to do this.

In order to do that, I've cloned your blendsel & pkgsel repos, and
tweaked them slightly:

  https://salsa.debian.org/philh/pkgsel/-/tree/blendsel?ref_type=heads
  https://salsa.debian.org/philh/blendsel/-/tree/blendsel?ref_type=heads

The main trick is to set BRANCH2REPO_EXTRA_PROJECTS so that the other
package gets included in the aptly repo in the pipeline, so that the
resulting mini-ISO gets to show off all the changes in both packages.

BTW I also had to tweak pkgsel's postinst to ensure that blendsel gets
installed (this is mostly required because an `apt update` is required
to make the salsa aptly repo visible in the target, so should not end up
in a release).

Having done that, one gets a mini-ISO, such as this:

  
https://salsa.debian.org/philh/pkgsel/-/jobs/5713711/artifacts/file/debian/output/debian-202306XX+salsaci+20240511+6-amd64-gtkmini.iso

which when tested on openQA looks like this:

  https://openqa.debian.net/tests/260723
  
So I guess I'll need to write a new test to match that next :-)

BTW there's nothing to stop one creating new task packages, and adding
them to BRANCH2REPO_EXTRA_PROJECTS, so you don't need to wait for them
to be released to test them.

I think that should work for your user on salsa too, if you pull those
changes into your repos, and set the CI config to `debian/salsa-ci.yml`
in both repos. If not, just say and we can work out what's missing.

HTH

Cheers, Phil.

P.S. Please don't stress about whether you qualify as a DD. Imposter
Syndrome is a healthy sign of humility IMO. I'd hope that most of us
feel like imposters at least some of the time, because the alternative
is not godlike competence but rather the Dunning–Kruger effect.
-- 
Philip Hands -- https://hands.com/~phil


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Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Andreas Tille]

Hi Holger,

thanks a lot for your effort.  Its really appreciated and very valuable
for the Blends effort.

Am Thu, May 09, 2024 at 11:05:28PM +0200 schrieb Holger Wansing:
> Holger Wansing  wrote (Tue, 13 Feb 2024 23:43:35 +0100):
> > could we just "copy tasksel with its UI and infrastructure" into a new 
> > package 
> > (I name it 'blends-di-tasks' here), which has all the blends listed, and 
> > add 
> > one entry to tasksel with a name like "Debian Pure Blends" or similar?
> > 
> > If one then selects "Debian Pure Blends" in the good all known tasksel, the 
> > blends-di-tasks package would be installed on /target, and later a new 
> > dialog 
> > would appear, listing all the blends, where the user could select which one 
> > to 
> > install.
> > (If the "Debian Pure Blends" entry stays unchecked, as would be the default
> > value, everything stays as is: the new dialog would not appear, no 
> > difference
> > to previous releases.)
> > 
> > Would that be a possible solution for all involved parties?
> 
> I worked on this in the meantime, and would like to propose my current 
> state:

While I guess the natural place for your packages is installer-team I've
just added you to the team in case you want to maintain some
(additional?) packages there.
 
> - I adapted tasksel, to become an installer for Debian pure blends. The
>   new package is blendsel, see https://salsa.debian.org/holgerw/blendsel/

I've build this package and besides a nitpicking comment thet you should
probably fix your ID in Uploaders field.

> - I prepared a change in pkgsel, to call blendsel depending on the
>   descision, if Debian pure blends are wanted or not.
>   See https://salsa.debian.org/holgerw/pkgsel/
> 
> 
> I did some testing in d-i, however that's tricky:
> testing is problematic as long as the new blendsel package is not in the
> archive, and the same with the changed pkgsel.
> So I had to "live-patch" the d-i for testing of blendsel, and therefore
> I cannot provide a working test image or the like (or I don't know how).

I admit I have no idea how to test in d-i but Cyril has given some
answers according to this.
 
> Anyway, I think I have it running so far, the blendsel dialog appears
> and shows the items to select; I'm attaching a screenshot showing the 
> current state (please note, that the dialog shows three desktop environments
> as placeholder for now; the tasksel - and therefore blendsel as well -
> logic does not allow to have packages|tasks|blends listed that don't
> have the corresponding task-* packages in the archive).

I've build the package locally and confirm it works as described.
 
> However, there will most likely be some glitches and edges to fix in
> blendsel, a review would be more than welcome...
> The template should be rephrased, I would ask for review on 
> debian-l10n-english
> when the time comes, but I guess there is still time for that...

ACK. 
 
> So, how to proceed now?
> To make progress, the new blendsel needs to get into the archive I guess,
> otherwise testing and providing test images will not work IMO.
> 
> Would the installer-team be ok with taking blendsel under its umbrella,
> as tasksel is, to get it uploaded?

Just let me know if you need any support besides questions that can only
be answered by installer team.

Thanks again for your work
Andreas.

-- 
https://fam-tille.de

Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Holger Wansing]

Hi,

Holger Wansing  wrote (Tue, 13 Feb 2024 23:43:35 +0100):
> could we just "copy tasksel with its UI and infrastructure" into a new 
> package 
> (I name it 'blends-di-tasks' here), which has all the blends listed, and add 
> one entry to tasksel with a name like "Debian Pure Blends" or similar?
> 
> If one then selects "Debian Pure Blends" in the good all known tasksel, the 
> blends-di-tasks package would be installed on /target, and later a new dialog 
> would appear, listing all the blends, where the user could select which one 
> to 
> install.
> (If the "Debian Pure Blends" entry stays unchecked, as would be the default
> value, everything stays as is: the new dialog would not appear, no difference
> to previous releases.)
> 
> Would that be a possible solution for all involved parties?

I worked on this in the meantime, and would like to propose my current 
state:

- I adapted tasksel, to become an installer for Debian pure blends. The
  new package is blendsel, see https://salsa.debian.org/holgerw/blendsel/

- I prepared a change in pkgsel, to call blendsel depending on the
  descision, if Debian pure blends are wanted or not.
  See https://salsa.debian.org/holgerw/pkgsel/


I did some testing in d-i, however that's tricky:
testing is problematic as long as the new blendsel package is not in the
archive, and the same with the changed pkgsel.
So I had to "live-patch" the d-i for testing of blendsel, and therefore
I cannot provide a working test image or the like (or I don't know how).

Anyway, I think I have it running so far, the blendsel dialog appears
and shows the items to select; I'm attaching a screenshot showing the 
current state (please note, that the dialog shows three desktop environments
as placeholder for now; the tasksel - and therefore blendsel as well -
logic does not allow to have packages|tasks|blends listed that don't
have the corresponding task-* packages in the archive).

However, there will most likely be some glitches and edges to fix in
blendsel, a review would be more than welcome...
The template should be rephrased, I would ask for review on debian-l10n-english
when the time comes, but I guess there is still time for that...


So, how to proceed now?
To make progress, the new blendsel needs to get into the archive I guess,
otherwise testing and providing test images will not work IMO.

Would the installer-team be ok with taking blendsel under its umbrella,
as tasksel is, to get it uploaded?


Holger



-- 
Holger Wansing 
PGP-Fingerprint: 496A C6E8 1442 4B34 8508  3529 59F1 87CA 156E B076

Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Cyril Brulebois]

Hallo Holger,

Holger Wansing  (2024-05-09):
> Holger Wansing  wrote (Tue, 13 Feb 2024 23:43:35 +0100):
> > could we just "copy tasksel with its UI and infrastructure" into a
> > new package (I name it 'blends-di-tasks' here), which has all the
> > blends listed, and add one entry to tasksel with a name like "Debian
> > Pure Blends" or similar?
> > 
> > If one then selects "Debian Pure Blends" in the good all known
> > tasksel, the blends-di-tasks package would be installed on /target,
> > and later a new dialog would appear, listing all the blends, where
> > the user could select which one to install.  (If the "Debian Pure
> > Blends" entry stays unchecked, as would be the default value,
> > everything stays as is: the new dialog would not appear, no
> > difference to previous releases.)
> > 
> > Would that be a possible solution for all involved parties?

That approach looks very fine to me, thanks.

> So, how to proceed now?
> To make progress, the new blendsel needs to get into the archive I guess,
> otherwise testing and providing test images will not work IMO.
> 
> Would the installer-team be ok with taking blendsel under its umbrella,
> as tasksel is, to get it uploaded?

Looks good to me.

I totally understand how testing can be difficult until packages reach
the archive, feel free to “upload early, upload often”.

It looks like the 64-bit time_t transition is getting better (at least
from afar) but I don't have any immediate plans for a release at the
moment, so it's perfectly fine to have glitches/temporary regressions
following the introduction of this feature/new packages along the way.


Cheers,
-- 
Cyril Brulebois (k...@debian.org)
D-I release manager -- Release team member -- Freelance Consultant


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Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Andreas Tille]

Hi Holger,

Am Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 11:43:35PM +0100 schrieb Holger Wansing:
> I would like to push a proposal here on this longstanding topic:

Thanks a lot for supporting this long standing topic which actually
bothers me than 20 years.  But Debian is not only about technique it is
also about patience. ;-)
 
> By other means, my attention was drawn to the blends-tasks package.
> While this package is not new, an idea came to my mind when reading the
> package description:
> 
> As a possible way to solve (or work-around ?) this issue: 
> could we just "copy tasksel with its UI and infrastructure" into a new 
> package 
> (I name it 'blends-di-tasks' here), which has all the blends listed, and add 
> one entry to tasksel with a name like "Debian Pure Blends" or similar?
> 
> If one then selects "Debian Pure Blends" in the good all known tasksel, the 
> blends-di-tasks package would be installed on /target, and later a new dialog 
> would appear, listing all the blends, where the user could select which one 
> to 
> install.
> (If the "Debian Pure Blends" entry stays unchecked, as would be the default
> value, everything stays as is: the new dialog would not appear, no difference
> to previous releases.)
> 
> Would that be a possible solution for all involved parties?

I consider this an acceptable work-around and it would be definitely a
great enhancement over having nothing.
 
> I know, the current (?) plan is something like an "enhanced tasksel" with some
> sort of hierarchy included, but I'm not sure, if this will ever happen

I think tasksel deserves a new design, but well if we do not have
someone who might tackle this task we need to go with the means we have.
 
> Thus, I wonder if this could be an alternative, which would be do-able?

Thanks a lot for this inspiring idea.

Kind regards
Andreas. 

-- 
http://fam-tille.de

Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Holger Wansing]

Hi,

I would like to push a proposal here on this longstanding topic:

By other means, my attention was drawn to the blends-tasks package.
While this package is not new, an idea came to my mind when reading the
package description:

As a possible way to solve (or work-around ?) this issue: 
could we just "copy tasksel with its UI and infrastructure" into a new package 
(I name it 'blends-di-tasks' here), which has all the blends listed, and add 
one entry to tasksel with a name like "Debian Pure Blends" or similar?

If one then selects "Debian Pure Blends" in the good all known tasksel, the 
blends-di-tasks package would be installed on /target, and later a new dialog 
would appear, listing all the blends, where the user could select which one to 
install.
(If the "Debian Pure Blends" entry stays unchecked, as would be the default
value, everything stays as is: the new dialog would not appear, no difference
to previous releases.)

Would that be a possible solution for all involved parties?

I know, the current (?) plan is something like an "enhanced tasksel" with some
sort of hierarchy included, but I'm not sure, if this will ever happen

Thus, I wonder if this could be an alternative, which would be do-able?


Holger




-- 
Holger Wansing 
PGP-Fingerprint: 496A C6E8 1442 4B34 8508  3529 59F1 87CA 156E B076

Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 09:52:42AM +0100, Philip Hands wrote:
> I don't have anything like a design for how that should look in my head
> though -- I guess interested parties should get together and come up
> with a design _before_ we start trying to implement it :-)

This sounds like you need someone with UX design experience to look at
this first, before you can actually implement things properly.

Perhaps this is something that could be posted as a "job" on the open
source design website? I've used them in the past to great effect for
the review interface of SReview, my video review system (we did a talk
about that process at FOSDEM 2019; you can see the video at
https://archive.fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/open_source_design_in_trenches/)

You'd need someone who's willing and able to implement the required
changes to give feedback to the designer, and you'd need to commit to a
bit of time in order to do this properly (in my experience there were a
few iterations of back-and-forth improvements that did take some time to
get fleshed out), but I think the end result is worth it...

-- 
 w@uter.{be,co.za}
wouter@{grep.be,fosdem.org,debian.org}

Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Andreas Tille]

Hi Steve,

Am Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 11:33:38PM + schrieb Steve McIntyre:
> Much as I hate to let you down, I think the best policy now is to be
> honest (with myself and you!) and say that I'm not going to find time
> to do this any time soon. Sorry. :-(

No need to be sorry about this.  I highly evaluate all your work and use
the chance to thank you for this.
 
> I'm just orphaning some of my packages now, as I've been failing to
> keep on top of those already. Other stuff has had to take priority for
> too long.

I can perfectly understand this since I'm in a similar situation that
I've done so much in the past and need to realise that I have to step
back a bit.
 
> I still think the best route forward is to add new functionality into
> debconf and then update tasksel use that. But please don't wait on me
> any more. If you can find other volunteers to pick this up, *please*
> do.

As far as I understood Phil's last posting he is working on an enhanced
tasksel.  Hopefully those two mails (yours and Phil's) will motivate
other contributors to step in.  I will not do this (see above).

Thanks again for all your work

  Andreas.

-- 
http://fam-tille.de

Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Steve McIntyre]

Hi Andreas!

Apologies for keeping you waiting here. For a range of reasons, I've
been struggling to find *any* time to look at this.

Much as I hate to let you down, I think the best policy now is to be
honest (with myself and you!) and say that I'm not going to find time
to do this any time soon. Sorry. :-(

I'm just orphaning some of my packages now, as I've been failing to
keep on top of those already. Other stuff has had to take priority for
too long.

I still think the best route forward is to add new functionality into
debconf and then update tasksel use that. But please don't wait on me
any more. If you can find other volunteers to pick this up, *please*
do.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
Google-bait:   https://www.debian.org/CD/free-linux-cd
  Debian does NOT ship free CDs. Please do NOT contact the mailing
  lists asking us to send them to you.

Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 12:51:45AM +, Seth Arnold wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 08:02:50PM +0100, Philip Hands wrote:
> > The only missing bit AFAIK is getting the step where tasksel gets
> > installed into the target system, and then run, to be able to grab the
> > version of tasksel to use from an alternative apt repository (which is
> > already being created as part of the salsa-CI pipeline I've got setup),
> 
> Is installing tasksel actually necessary? apt understands tasks, eg:
> apt install lamp-server^
> 
> https://shantanugoel.com/2010/10/23/apt-get-caret/
> https://askubuntu.com/questions/211912/
> 
> I believe this works even if tasksel isn't installed on the target system.

Yes, but that doesn't give a user a friendly way to select a task.

If you know the task then yes, that's plenty, but there's more at play here.

-- 
 w@uter.{be,co.za}
wouter@{grep.be,fosdem.org,debian.org}

Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Seth Arnold]

On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 08:02:50PM +0100, Philip Hands wrote:
> The only missing bit AFAIK is getting the step where tasksel gets
> installed into the target system, and then run, to be able to grab the
> version of tasksel to use from an alternative apt repository (which is
> already being created as part of the salsa-CI pipeline I've got setup),

Is installing tasksel actually necessary? apt understands tasks, eg:
apt install lamp-server^

https://shantanugoel.com/2010/10/23/apt-get-caret/
https://askubuntu.com/questions/211912/

I believe this works even if tasksel isn't installed on the target system.

Thanks


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Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Sunil Mohan Adapa]

On 1/10/22 11:24, Andreas Tille wrote:

Hi Phil,

Am Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 08:02:50PM +0100 schrieb Philip Hands:

Fixing that last bit is next on my TODO list. Once done, that should
allow us to try things out rather more easily, and thus have a chance to
demonstrate that they are ready for a wider audience.

I'll follow up here once I've got all the bits in place.  I also expect
to have time to work on getting Blends into d-i after that.


That's really great news.  Thanks a lot



Great news indeed. I am available to help out with testing or any 
further work needed. Give out a shout when changes are ready to be tested.


--
Sunil


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Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Andreas Tille]

Hi Phil,

Am Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 08:02:50PM +0100 schrieb Philip Hands:
> Fixing that last bit is next on my TODO list. Once done, that should
> allow us to try things out rather more easily, and thus have a chance to
> demonstrate that they are ready for a wider audience.
> 
> I'll follow up here once I've got all the bits in place.  I also expect
> to have time to work on getting Blends into d-i after that.

That's really great news.  Thanks a lot

Andreas.

-- 
http://fam-tille.de

Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Andreas Tille]

Hi Steve,

a new release cycle has started.  Do you think it is possible to
implement this long wanted feature for the next release?

Kind regards and happy new year

 Andreas.

Am Sat, Mar 06, 2021 at 04:53:48PM + schrieb Steve McIntyre:
> Hey Andreas!
> 
> On Tue, Mar 02, 2021 at 02:46:52PM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote:
> >On Thu, Oct 08, 2020 at 10:23:19AM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> >> Hey Andreas! I hope you're keeping well!
> >> 
> >> On Tue, Oct 06, 2020 at 06:08:02PM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:
> >> >> (Overdue!) update: I've been hacking on this for a while, and I hope
> >> >> to have a prototype for testing up shortly. It works fine on my local
> >> >> system, but in a test d-i build it fails totally so I've clearly
> >> >> missed something! Debugging that now...
> >> > 
> >> >I wonder whether I might have missed some information whether there
> >> >is something I could test meanwhile.
> >> 
> >> I'm afraid that various higher-priority interrupts came up (new job,
> >> UEFI security work) and I got side-tracked for a while. You must be
> >> psychic - I just started picking things up again last weekend.
> >
> >I admit I did not payed much attention on the development of tasksel and
> >thus the chances to select Blends right from the installer.  The topic
> >remains to be urgent for all Blends - but I'm afraid it will be to late
> >for Debian 10.  Or did I missed something and the status is promising
> >for this release? 
> 
> Apologies, I think I've let you down :-( .
> 
> I've made a *small* amount of progress at hacking on debconf (route
> #2). But again I've had other things come up, not least another round
> of Secure Boot fixes. We're not going to have changes in for
> Bullseye. Sorry. :-(
> 
> -- 
> Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
>   Getting a SCSI chain working is perfectly simple if you remember that there
>   must be exactly three terminations: one on one end of the cable, one on the
>   far end, and the goat, terminated over the SCSI chain with a silver-handled
>   knife whilst burning *black* candles. --- Anthony DeBoer
> 
> 

-- 
http://fam-tille.de

Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Andreas Tille]

Hi Steve,

Am Sat, Mar 06, 2021 at 04:53:48PM + schrieb Steve McIntyre:
> 
> I've made a *small* amount of progress at hacking on debconf (route
> #2). But again I've had other things come up, not least another round
> of Secure Boot fixes. We're not going to have changes in for
> Bullseye. Sorry. :-(

Do you see any chance to get this for Bookworm?

Kind regards

  Andreas. 

-- 
http://fam-tille.de

Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Steve McIntyre]

Hey Andreas!

On Tue, Mar 02, 2021 at 02:46:52PM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote:
>On Thu, Oct 08, 2020 at 10:23:19AM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote:
>> Hey Andreas! I hope you're keeping well!
>> 
>> On Tue, Oct 06, 2020 at 06:08:02PM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:
>> >> (Overdue!) update: I've been hacking on this for a while, and I hope
>> >> to have a prototype for testing up shortly. It works fine on my local
>> >> system, but in a test d-i build it fails totally so I've clearly
>> >> missed something! Debugging that now...
>> > 
>> >I wonder whether I might have missed some information whether there
>> >is something I could test meanwhile.
>> 
>> I'm afraid that various higher-priority interrupts came up (new job,
>> UEFI security work) and I got side-tracked for a while. You must be
>> psychic - I just started picking things up again last weekend.
>
>I admit I did not payed much attention on the development of tasksel and
>thus the chances to select Blends right from the installer.  The topic
>remains to be urgent for all Blends - but I'm afraid it will be to late
>for Debian 10.  Or did I missed something and the status is promising
>for this release? 

Apologies, I think I've let you down :-( .

I've made a *small* amount of progress at hacking on debconf (route
#2). But again I've had other things come up, not least another round
of Secure Boot fixes. We're not going to have changes in for
Bullseye. Sorry. :-(

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
  Getting a SCSI chain working is perfectly simple if you remember that there
  must be exactly three terminations: one on one end of the cable, one on the
  far end, and the goat, terminated over the SCSI chain with a silver-handled
  knife whilst burning *black* candles. --- Anthony DeBoer

Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Andreas Tille]

Hi Steve,

On Thu, Oct 08, 2020 at 10:23:19AM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> Hey Andreas! I hope you're keeping well!
> 
> On Tue, Oct 06, 2020 at 06:08:02PM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:
> >> (Overdue!) update: I've been hacking on this for a while, and I hope
> >> to have a prototype for testing up shortly. It works fine on my local
> >> system, but in a test d-i build it fails totally so I've clearly
> >> missed something! Debugging that now...
> > 
> >I wonder whether I might have missed some information whether there
> >is something I could test meanwhile.
> 
> I'm afraid that various higher-priority interrupts came up (new job,
> UEFI security work) and I got side-tracked for a while. You must be
> psychic - I just started picking things up again last weekend.

I admit I did not payed much attention on the development of tasksel and
thus the chances to select Blends right from the installer.  The topic
remains to be urgent for all Blends - but I'm afraid it will be to late
for Debian 10.  Or did I missed something and the status is promising
for this release? 

Kind regards and thanks for all your attempts anyway

  Andreas.

-- 
http://fam-tille.de

Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Andreas Tille]

Hi Steve,

On Thu, Oct 08, 2020 at 10:23:19AM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> Hey Andreas! I hope you're keeping well!

Thanks, I'm perfectly fine.  I hope you as well.

> You must be
> psychic - I just started picking things up again last weekend.

Argh, now you have made my deepest secret public! ;-)
Thanks for picking it up and let us know if there is something
to test

  Andreas.

-- 
http://fam-tille.de

Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Steve McIntyre]

Hey Andreas! I hope you're keeping well!

On Tue, Oct 06, 2020 at 06:08:02PM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:
>On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 07:16:11PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote:
>> >Not yet, I'm afraid. A little too swamped so far, but you're near the
>> >top of my TODO list. I'm hoping to get some time for development on
>> >this in the next couple of months.
>> 
>> (Overdue!) update: I've been hacking on this for a while, and I hope
>> to have a prototype for testing up shortly. It works fine on my local
>> system, but in a test d-i build it fails totally so I've clearly
>> missed something! Debugging that now...
> 
>I wonder whether I might have missed some information whether there
>is something I could test meanwhile.

I'm afraid that various higher-priority interrupts came up (new job,
UEFI security work) and I got side-tracked for a while. You must be
psychic - I just started picking things up again last weekend.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
"Further comment on how I feel about IBM will appear once I've worked out
 whether they're being malicious or incompetent. Capital letters are forecast."
 Matthew Garrett, http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjg59/30675.html

Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Sunil Mohan Adapa]

On 06/10/20 9:08 am, Andreas Tille wrote:
> Hi Steve,
> 
> On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 07:16:11PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote:
>>> Not yet, I'm afraid. A little too swamped so far, but you're near the
>>> top of my TODO list. I'm hoping to get some time for development on
>>> this in the next couple of months.
>>
>> (Overdue!) update: I've been hacking on this for a while, and I hope
>> to have a prototype for testing up shortly. It works fine on my local
>> system, but in a test d-i build it fails totally so I've clearly
>> missed something! Debugging that now...
>  
> I wonder whether I might have missed some information whether there
> is something I could test meanwhile.
> 
> Kind regards and thanks for all your work for the installer

Hi Steve and Andreas,

I believe getting all the blends (including FreedomBox) listed in the
Debian installer would bring a lot of exposure to blends.

I have quite some spare time for assisting on this task. If there is an
old patch out there, I can help with cleanup, refresh, testing, writing
additional tests, etc. If not, I can help with a fresh patch based on
what was agreed on. Let me know.

Thanks,

-- 
Sunil Mohan Adapa
FreedomBox Team



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Andreas Tille]

Hi Steve,

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 07:16:11PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> >Not yet, I'm afraid. A little too swamped so far, but you're near the
> >top of my TODO list. I'm hoping to get some time for development on
> >this in the next couple of months.
> 
> (Overdue!) update: I've been hacking on this for a while, and I hope
> to have a prototype for testing up shortly. It works fine on my local
> system, but in a test d-i build it fails totally so I've clearly
> missed something! Debugging that now...
 
I wonder whether I might have missed some information whether there
is something I could test meanwhile.

Kind regards and thanks for all your work for the installer

Andreas.

-- 
http://fam-tille.de

Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Andreas Tille]

Hi Steve,

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 07:16:11PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> >Not yet, I'm afraid. A little too swamped so far, but you're near the
> >top of my TODO list. I'm hoping to get some time for development on
> >this in the next couple of months.
> 
> (Overdue!) update: I've been hacking on this for a while, and I hope
> to have a prototype for testing up shortly. It works fine on my local
> system, but in a test d-i build it fails totally so I've clearly
> missed something! Debugging that now...

Thanks a lot.  Its really appreciated.  I hope that other Blends step in
with testing since I guess the next monthes I'm busy with COVID-19
issues. 

Thank you for the update

  Andreas.

-- 
http://fam-tille.de

Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Steve McIntyre]

Hey Andreas!

On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 08:23:39AM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote:
>
>the first alpha of the installer of Debian 11 is out.  As we talked at
>DebConf about better Blends support:  Is there anything we can test
>regarding tasksel?

Not yet, I'm afraid. A little too swamped so far, but you're near the
top of my TODO list. I'm hoping to get some time for development on
this in the next couple of months.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
"When C++ is your hammer, everything looks like a thumb." -- Steven M. Haflich

Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Andreas Tille]

Hi Steve,

the first alpha of the installer of Debian 11 is out.  As we talked at
DebConf about better Blends support:  Is there anything we can test
regarding tasksel?

Kind regards

   Andreas.

On Mon, Dec 03, 2018 at 10:32:28PM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> somehow I've thought I would have pinged about this one and I even
> somehow remember that Holger liked that I did so but I do not find and
> trace of this in my outbox nor the mailing list archive.  So may be I
> have dreamed this.  It would be a real dream if we could finally realise
> this 15 year old idea to have Blends right in the installer.  Is there
> any work in progress that could be tested?
> 
> Kind regards
> 
>   Andreas.
> 
> On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 10:34:36AM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > to give some status information about how we can make Blends more
> > visible at installer stage:  Holger Levsen, Phil Hands, Steve McIntyre
> > and I had some discussion in DebCamp.  The conclusion was that adding
> > Blends to the installer tasksel menu would be perfectly possible if
> > tasksel itself would provide some menu hierarchy.  We all agreed that
> > the current selection of tasks needs some overhaul in general.  It
> > could provide some menu item:
> > 
> >"Select Blend"   (or rather some better text here!)
> > 
> > and than you get a selection of Blends to pick (one or more) from.
> > 
> > For the Stretch release Phil even wrote some code in this direction that
> > needs some refresh. (Phil, can you give some pointer if there is
> > something to test?)
> > 
> > Any comments / code contributions are welcome.
> > 
> > Kind regards
> > 
> >Andreas.
> > 
> > PS: Please correct me if my short summary is incomplete.
> > 
> > -- 
> > http://fam-tille.de
> 
> -- 
> http://fam-tille.de
> 
> 

-- 
http://fam-tille.de

Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Andreas Tille]

Hi,

somehow I've thought I would have pinged about this one and I even
somehow remember that Holger liked that I did so but I do not find and
trace of this in my outbox nor the mailing list archive.  So may be I
have dreamed this.  It would be a real dream if we could finally realise
this 15 year old idea to have Blends right in the installer.  Is there
any work in progress that could be tested?

Kind regards

  Andreas.

On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 10:34:36AM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> to give some status information about how we can make Blends more
> visible at installer stage:  Holger Levsen, Phil Hands, Steve McIntyre
> and I had some discussion in DebCamp.  The conclusion was that adding
> Blends to the installer tasksel menu would be perfectly possible if
> tasksel itself would provide some menu hierarchy.  We all agreed that
> the current selection of tasks needs some overhaul in general.  It
> could provide some menu item:
> 
>"Select Blend"   (or rather some better text here!)
> 
> and than you get a selection of Blends to pick (one or more) from.
> 
> For the Stretch release Phil even wrote some code in this direction that
> needs some refresh. (Phil, can you give some pointer if there is
> something to test?)
> 
> Any comments / code contributions are welcome.
> 
> Kind regards
> 
>Andreas.
> 
> PS: Please correct me if my short summary is incomplete.
> 
> -- 
> http://fam-tille.de

-- 
http://fam-tille.de

Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Andreas Tille]

Hi Ole,

On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 12:23:58PM +0200, Ole Streicher wrote:
> Filippo Rusconi  writes:
> > Also, when I installed debian-science and debichem last time, the process
> > downloaded such an amount of software that it almost filled my disk (which 
> > I was
> > not suspecting). Maybe, a rough indication of the used disk space in front 
> > of
> > each blend might be useful, in this respect.
> 
> I would not include debian-science to the blends listed in the
> installer: it is more an umbrella to organize the packages then a useful
> selection of software. The software selection is also inconsitent: it
> only contains software that is not maintained by a more specialized
> blend (like debichem).
> 
> So, there is probably no real use case to install Debian Science in its
> current form (unless someone takes the work to kurate a "Generic Debian
> Science Workstation" or so).

True.  There might be some general use in may be the following tasks:

   https://blends.debian.org/science/tasks/dataacquisition
   https://blends.debian.org/science/tasks/distributedcomputing
   https://blends.debian.org/science/tasks/statistics
   https://blends.debian.org/science/tasks/typesetting
   https://blends.debian.org/science/tasks/viewing

(or even a subset of these).  I'm not very keen on having these but may
be this could be a topic to discuss.
 
> On our last attempt, we had an opt-in for the blends to be in the
> installer; I would propose the same now as well.

Definitely

  Andreas. 

-- 
http://fam-tille.de

Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Richard Owlett]

On 08/16/2018 03:46 AM, Filippo Rusconi wrote:

[snip]

Please, add some small strophe to explain what a blend is, as I can tell 
that
this is not something widely known even to seasoned Debian users/admins 
(have

examples from research labs).


I assume you are aware of https://www.debian.org/blends/ .
It would be good if the link to it on https://www.debian.org/ could be 
more suggestive of what they accomplish. I can't come up with a viable 
solution.




Also, when I installed debian-science and debichem last time, the process
downloaded such an amount of software that it almost filled my disk 
(which I was
not suspecting). Maybe, a rough indication of the used disk space in 
front of

each blend might be useful, in this respect.

Just my 2 cents, along with my very best wishes,

Filippo

Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Ole Streicher]

Filippo Rusconi  writes:
> Also, when I installed debian-science and debichem last time, the process
> downloaded such an amount of software that it almost filled my disk (which I 
> was
> not suspecting). Maybe, a rough indication of the used disk space in front of
> each blend might be useful, in this respect.

I would not include debian-science to the blends listed in the
installer: it is more an umbrella to organize the packages then a useful
selection of software. The software selection is also inconsitent: it
only contains software that is not maintained by a more specialized
blend (like debichem).

So, there is probably no real use case to install Debian Science in its
current form (unless someone takes the work to kurate a "Generic Debian
Science Workstation" or so).

On our last attempt, we had an opt-in for the blends to be in the
installer; I would propose the same now as well.

Cheers

Ole

Re: Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Filippo Rusconi]

Greetings, Andreas, and everybody,


On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 10:34:36AM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:

Hi,

to give some status information about how we can make Blends more
visible at installer stage:  Holger Levsen, Phil Hands, Steve McIntyre
and I had some discussion in DebCamp.  The conclusion was that adding
Blends to the installer tasksel menu would be perfectly possible if
tasksel itself would provide some menu hierarchy.  We all agreed that
the current selection of tasks needs some overhaul in general.  It
could provide some menu item:

  "Select Blend"   (or rather some better text here!)

and than you get a selection of Blends to pick (one or more) from.

For the Stretch release Phil even wrote some code in this direction that
needs some refresh. (Phil, can you give some pointer if there is
something to test?)

Any comments / code contributions are welcome.



Please, add some small strophe to explain what a blend is, as I can tell that
this is not something widely known even to seasoned Debian users/admins (have
examples from research labs).

Also, when I installed debian-science and debichem last time, the process
downloaded such an amount of software that it almost filled my disk (which I was
not suspecting). Maybe, a rough indication of the used disk space in front of
each blend might be useful, in this respect.

Just my 2 cents, along with my very best wishes,

Filippo

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Filippo Rusconi, PhD
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁   Scientist at CNRS
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀   Debian Developer
⠈⠳⣄  http://msxpertsuite.org
 http://www.debian.org

Next attempt to add Blends to Debian installer

[Andreas Tille]

Hi,

to give some status information about how we can make Blends more
visible at installer stage:  Holger Levsen, Phil Hands, Steve McIntyre
and I had some discussion in DebCamp.  The conclusion was that adding
Blends to the installer tasksel menu would be perfectly possible if
tasksel itself would provide some menu hierarchy.  We all agreed that
the current selection of tasks needs some overhaul in general.  It
could provide some menu item:

   "Select Blend"   (or rather some better text here!)

and than you get a selection of Blends to pick (one or more) from.

For the Stretch release Phil even wrote some code in this direction that
needs some refresh. (Phil, can you give some pointer if there is
something to test?)

Any comments / code contributions are welcome.

Kind regards

   Andreas.

PS: Please correct me if my short summary is incomplete.

-- 
http://fam-tille.de