Re: (summary?) Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

[Geert Stappers]

Op 01-11-2007 om 08:49 schreef Christian Perrier:
> Quoting Geert Stappers ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> > Op 01-11-2007 om 07:15 schreef Christian Perrier:
> > 
> > > As a conclusion, I really would like to see Frans proposal
> > > implemented. The plan he proposed seems right to me.
> > 
> > Funny.
> 
> Sorry but I have actually no clue to understand what you mean by this
> and the following statements.

My message is:  Don't do everthing at install time


Geert Stappers
Now writing "Don't do" again  :-(


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Display apt download estimate (was: Re: (summary?) Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation)

[Christian Perrier]

(side comment in this thread)

Quoting Joey Hess ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

> [1] apt's estimate is not currently exposed to the user by apt-setup,
> but this should be fixable by using debconf-apt-progress.

Whatever choice we make in this thread, that seems to be an
interesting enhancement, yes.

-- 




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Re: (summary?) Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

[Geert Stappers]

Op 01-11-2007 om 08:15 schreef Geert Stappers:
> 
> I have the feeling that installing a computer became more important
> then have an installed computer.

| I have the sad feeling that installing a computer became more important
| then having an installed computer.

Make the install quick[1] so the user[2] can 'apt-rom add' quickly.


Cheers
Geert Stappers

[1] or even Quick and Dirty
[2] any person that can do more then boot from CD
and machine gun the return key.


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Re: (summary?) Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

[Christian Perrier]

Quoting Geert Stappers ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> Op 01-11-2007 om 07:15 schreef Christian Perrier:
> 
> > As a conclusion, I really would like to see Frans proposal
> > implemented. The plan he proposed seems right to me.
> 
> Funny.


Sorry but I have actually no clue to understand what you mean by this
and the following statements.




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Re: (summary?) Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

[Joey Hess]

Christian Perrier wrote:
> Frans' proposal adds an extra question when doing CD installs, to
> prompt users whether they want to use another CD or not. This, even if
> they did choose a network mirror before.

It asks for all the CDs first, there's no path through the install that
asks about a network mirror first (if anna uses a network mirror, this
isn't a full CD and so it doesn't ask for other full CDs, AIUI).

> My main reason for this is also that I think that much users will
> *always* choose a mirror even when they don't have broadband (or don't
> want to use it: think about corporate networks where using the
> Internet connections for installing systems is considered harmful even
> if that connection is broadband). So, actually pre-deciding that if
> they do so, they don't want to use extra CDs, is indeed an incorrect
> interpretation of the average user's behaviour wrt questions asked.

If you're on a corporate network and choose to use a mirror and this
works and yet the corporate network's policy doesn't allow it, than at
least three things are broken (a stupid policy that trusts random CDs
more than gpg signed data on the network, a flawed implementation in the
network, and a flawed adherance to that policy). Sorry, I can't take
that example too seriously as a goal to design for, although I'm sure
it's realistic.

If you're not on broadband and you choose to use a mirror, it takes
half an hour or more just to download the Packages file. Apt can
estimate this reaonably well so you shouldn't even need to wait, you can
just see in the progress bar estimate that the network is slow[1]
This is a good indication that you made the wrong choice -- installing
any significant tasks will take much longer -- and all that's really
needed then is a Cancel button so you can move on to using a CD instead.

By the way, the above stuff is also nice to have if your network is fast
but you choose a bad mirror.

-- 
see shy jo

[1] apt's estimate is not currently exposed to the user by apt-setup,
but this should be fixable by using debconf-apt-progress.


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Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

[Joey Hess]

Frans Pop wrote:
> It's logical from the installer's pov, but not from a _user's_ pov.
> How the hell is he supposed to guess that he will be asked about additional 
> CDs later when confronted with a question about a network mirror?
> 
> If I (as a newbie) were confronted by that question I would think "OK, so 
> that's it: I either use the mirror or have to do with what's included on 
> this one CD; let's choose the mirror to be safe".

Hmm, if you were a true newbie, wouldn't it make sense to assume that
the Debian installer has a way of using all these CDs you bought? It
seems to me that the user who would be more confused/disheartened on
seeing the mirror question before the CD question is a user who's aware
of Debian's checkered past (which included broken multi-cd support for
at least one pre-di release, IIRC).

I suppose we could go back to base-config's concept of:

Apt currently knows about $N packages.

add a mirror
scan another cd
done

Although I never felt that was a good UI, and it's not friendly to
preseeding.

> And you're not answering the case where someone would want to use 2 CDs + a 
> network mirror because he has a reasonable but not great Internet 
> connection.

It's unlikely that tasksel is going to want anything beyond what's on
those first 2 CDs, so it would be reasonable to just use them for the
install and set up a mirror later.

-- 
see shy jo


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Re: (summary?) Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

[Geert Stappers]

Op 01-11-2007 om 07:15 schreef Christian Perrier:

> As a conclusion, I really would like to see Frans proposal
> implemented. The plan he proposed seems right to me.

Funny.

To me it was allways interresting to see that the debian-installer is
build by people who have an installed computer.
Usually people build things they don't have.

Now there is a new dimension:
"it is important to scan all CDs at install time"

Funny, really funny and perhaps sad, very sad.

I have the feeling that installing a computer became more important
then have an installed computer.


:-(
Geert Stappers


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Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

[Geert Stappers]

Op 31-10-2007 om 21:53 schreef Holger Levsen:
> Hi,
> 
> On Wednesday 31 October 2007 19:23, Frans Pop wrote:
> > And, as said before, I think it is wanted a lot more than you think. Not
> > for full sets, but I think for a lot of users downloading the first 2-4 CDs
> > can be a very sensible option. 
> 
> Debian Edu pretty much wants that, to be able to distribute a CD set "which 
> can be installed fully without a network". Not every schools has dvd drives 
> (at all or in all machines).

I do understand the "without a network" part.

I miss the link between Debian-Edu, famous for it's single CD install
and getting an extra question in the installer for scanning more CDs.
(which implies leaving the single install CD philosophy for Debian-Edu)


Cheers
Geert Stappers


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(summary?) Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

[Christian Perrier]

Quoting Frans Pop ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> Your mail seriously put me off for a few days, so I've given myself some 
> extra time to think about it.


I went through all this discussion as I feel pretty important to get
this issue solved and decided.

May I attempt to summarize how I see the "dispute" here? And then give
my personal advice, based on this interpretation.

Frans' proposal adds an extra question when doing CD installs, to
prompt users whether they want to use another CD or not. This, even if
they did choose a network mirror before.

Joeyh's argument is being reluctant to extra questions and decide that
users who did choose a network mirror will, by definition, not want to
use extra CDs. He therefore proposes to partly "hide" the decision of
scanning extra CD's in the question about network mirror. If users did
choose a network mirror, then don't prompt them about extra CDs.

This main point brings in the way we want to support users without
broadband available when they install a Debian system.

From Frans' rationale, we should always give them the opportunity to
bring in extra packages from additionnal CDs. From Joeyh's one,
they've answered the question themselves when choosing a network
mirror.

From my personal experience of contact with various users and all
exchanges I had up to now all around the world, I tend to prefer the
deal of adding an extra question but giving much more flexibility to
our users (see Holger's or Praveen's points).

So, with all respect I have for the reluctance to add extra questions
to defaults installs (imho, Joeyh's strong stance on this...as well as
Frans' one when he acted as RM, has always kept D-I as "clean" as
possible), I tend to favourize (en?) Frans approach, here.

My main reason for this is also that I think that much users will
*always* choose a mirror even when they don't have broadband (or don't
want to use it: think about corporate networks where using the
Internet connections for installing systems is considered harmful even
if that connection is broadband). So, actually pre-deciding that if
they do so, they don't want to use extra CDs, is indeed an incorrect
interpretation of the average user's behaviour wrt questions asked.


As a conclusion, I really would like to see Frans proposal
implemented. The plan he proposed seems right to me.






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Bug#448325: marked as done (Incorrect installation order on NSLU2 with main-menu_1.22)

[Gordon Farquharson]

Hi Joey

On 10/29/07, Martin Michlmayr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> * Joey Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2007-10-29 16:12]:
> > Debian Bug Tracking System wrote:
> > > Thanks, Joey.  Installations now work properly on NSLU2.
> >
> > FWIW, I can't see how flash-kernel ordering would influence
> > localechooser/clock-setup ordering at all. Also, main-menu is still at
> > version 1.22 for arm, 1.22 has not built yet. It's not clear to me which
> > versions Gordon is testing with. In my test with 1.21, localechooser and
> > clock-setup ran at the right times.

Thanks for resolving this bug, Joey.

Not that it matters much anymore, but in my testing, I had used a
locally built copy of main-menu_1.22 for arm when I built the
installer. The flash-kernel-installer version was 1.4.

Gordon

-- 
Gordon Farquharson
GnuPG Key ID: 32D6D676



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Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

[Frans Pop]

On Wednesday 31 October 2007, Geert Stappers wrote:
> In the Commodore 64 days, I had the game "Fort Apocalypse".

/me had the same game :-)

> Please design with an user (so not a newbie) in mind.
>
> For those who are worried about "elite" and such:
> Really "elite-ish" is to assume that the person who installs Debian
> is a newbie.

I think I do keep all types of users in mind and IMO they can all deal with 
one extra targeted question.
However, when thinking about doing installations, keeping in mind people who 
have never seen the installer before just a bit more than people who are 
installing Debian for the 20th time _does_ IMO make sense. And that is what 
I had in mind when I used the term newbie (as in "new to Debian").


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Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

[Geert Stappers]

Op 31-10-2007 om 22:23 schreef Frans Pop:
> It's logical from the installer's pov, but not from a _user's_ pov.
> How the hell is he supposed to guess that he will be asked about additional 
> CDs later when confronted with a question about a network mirror?
> 
> If I (as a newbie) were confronted by that question I would think "OK, so 
> that's it: I either use the mirror or have to do with what's included on 
> this one CD; let's choose the mirror to be safe".
> With my proposal the user will _know_ at the time of the mirror question how 
> many CDs/DVDs he already has available which makes answering "No" to the 
> mirror question a lot less scary.

I was a newbie too.  ( Yes, I know, we where all newbies once. )

In the Commodore 64 days, I had the game "Fort Apocalypse".
With the joystick you controlled a helicopter. In the landscape there
where soldiers to rescue and there was the computer controlled air
defence system shooting at you.
After a lot of pratice I was able to rescue all soldiers and to destroy
the air defence before it did destroy me. I felt great and the stupid
computer should have reward me
with a great blinking "GAME OVER", but didn't. (yes, a newbie expirence)
After spendig even more time on the game, I find out (or was told) that
that the floor under the air defence house can also be shoot and the
hole in the floor (or ground) was an entrance to cave.
Decending in the cave with the helicopter did change the scenery color,
I was in the next level of the game ...
Again air defence shooting at me and also soldiers to rescue for extra
points. Also shooting on the floor and the wall for finding further
"levels" of the game.
And finally deep in the cave there was the Fort Apocalypse.
After destroy that fortress there was a very big "GAME OVER"
(or was it a "Mission completed!" ? ) with various visual effects.
The great victory of not being a newbie (for F.A.) anymore.

In other words:

  A newbie can learn.



Back to the Debian-Installer:

Please design with an user (so not a newbie) in mind.

For those who are worried about "elite" and such:
Really "elite-ish" is to assume that the person who installs Debian
is a newbie.


Cheers
Geert Stappers
-- 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Apocalypse


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Re: installing to a box with suspended system

[Geert Stappers]

Op 31-10-2007 om 21:44 schreef Michal Suchanek:
> Well, this is another problem that might be solved by the solution
> suggested for that bug.
> 
> To paraphrase what you are saying, using Debian software on a system
> is inherently risky, as you can never be sure what changes it does.
> Compounding the risk by having operating systems suspended is
> something you should avoid as a user.

My mom did told me that it is dangerous to go across the street,
but she never did forbid me to go across the street.

Thing I want to tell, is that there are always risks.


> Here the installer is no different from any other piece of software.
> It should not do stuff behind your back. It is not one of those tools
> for certain other OSes.
> 
> The installer should be designed to perform the task of copying Debian
> to a place designated by the user in the system so that the user can
> boot Debian using the method she chooses.
> Modifying other places in the system is not part of this task.

We all agree on that.

And I think that we all can see the good things in advices like
"do a real shutdown, not a suspend" and "buckle up before start driving"


Geert Stappers
taking the risk to tell something obvious


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Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

[Frans Pop]

On Wednesday 31 October 2007, Joey Hess wrote:
> It seems logical to me; the installer wants to find as complete as
> possible a copy of the debian archive and doesn't really need to
> continue to find other copies once one has been found. Same reason it
> doesn't ask for CDs after you've given it DVDs..

It's logical from the installer's pov, but not from a _user's_ pov.
How the hell is he supposed to guess that he will be asked about additional 
CDs later when confronted with a question about a network mirror?

If I (as a newbie) were confronted by that question I would think "OK, so 
that's it: I either use the mirror or have to do with what's included on 
this one CD; let's choose the mirror to be safe".
With my proposal the user will _know_ at the time of the mirror question how 
many CDs/DVDs he already has available which makes answering "No" to the 
mirror question a lot less scary.

And you're not answering the case where someone would want to use 2 CDs + a 
network mirror because he has a reasonable but not great Internet 
connection.
One of the main reasons I have a local mirror and happily download some 
50-100 GB each month - most of which I'll never use - is exactly to avoid 
long downloads when updating and doing installer tests, even though I have 
broadband (though not very big broadband).

> Summary of all offerings[4] of US CD vendors:
Guess (at least some) Dutch sellers are less money hungry than US ones then:
- http://www.dddi.nl/neword_en.html
- http://www.munnikes.nl/cd/cart/index.php?action=cat&cat=193&kid=b14

I agree that something like the first does is probably exceptional (and will 
probably scare real newbies :-)

I also don't see it as a problem that they don't sell netinsts: if you're 
going to use a netinst (and possibly even single full CD) you _have_ a got 
Internet connection so you'll be able to download it yourself. Promoting 
m-a with vendors _would_ be a good idea.


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Bug#416542: Cheap Ad06e Sof+ware

[Lanny Burton]

adobe4less . com



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Re: Bug#417407: installing to a box with suspended system

[Michal Suchanek]

On 31/10/2007, Frans Pop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wednesday 31 October 2007, Michal Suchanek wrote:
> > I tried to use the installer on a box which had a Linux system
> > suspended on one disk. As I noticed that os-prober mounts the
> > partitions I did not try to resume.
> > According to the software suspend documentation this could cause
> > serious data loss, especially since the filesystem loses consistency
> > while *mounted*.
>
> The installer will also in principle automatically reuse an existing swap
> partition during the installation...
> In my opinion this is a completely different issue than the subject of this
> report.
>
> I also think that trying to do an installation on a system that has an OS in
> suspended state is not very smart. _Any_ installation of an OS is
> inherently risky as you can never be sure exactly what changes it may make
> on disk. Compounding that risk by having operating systems suspended is
> something you should know to avoid as a user.
> We could add a warning about that in the installation guide, but I don't
> think there is much more that we can do than that. I would personally
> qualify any data loss resulting from that as being caused by "user error".
>
> Setting follow-up for this to the mailing list as this does not belong in
> this bug report.
>
>
Well, this is another problem that might be solved by the solution
suggested for that bug.

To paraphrase what you are saying, using Debian software on a system
is inherently risky, as you can never be sure what changes it does.
Compounding the risk by having operating systems suspended is
something you should avoid as a user.

Here the installer is no different from any other piece of software.
It should not do stuff behind your back. It is not one of those tools
for certain other OSes.

The installer should be designed to perform the task of copying Debian
to a place designated by the user in the system so that the user can
boot Debian using the method she chooses.
Modifying other places in the system is not part of this task.

Thanks

Michal


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Bug#414609: Cheap Ad06e Sof+ware

[Juha Newton]

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[Lori Freeman]

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[Benson Ward]

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Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

[Holger Levsen]

Hi,

On Wednesday 31 October 2007 19:23, Frans Pop wrote:
> And, as said before, I think it is wanted a lot more than you think. Not
> for full sets, but I think for a lot of users downloading the first 2-4 CDs
> can be a very sensible option. 

Debian Edu pretty much wants that, to be able to distribute a CD set "which 
can be installed fully without a network". Not every schools has dvd drives 
(at all or in all machines).


regards,
Holger


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[Ilya Wright]

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[Sheila Armstrong]

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Bug#253854: Cheap Ad06e Sof+ware

[Juliet Arnold]

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Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

[Joey Hess]

Frans Pop wrote:
> OK, but in your proposal the option to scan additional CDs is _not asked at 
> all_ if they choose to use a mirror. A significant difference I'd say.

Asking the CD question in expert mode if a mirror has been configured is
not significantly different than allowing lilo to be chosen after grub in
expert mode, is it?

> I also still feel that having to say "no" to a mirror is in any way logical 
> if you want to use additional CDs, so we'd have to add some sort of ugly 
> (conditional!) explanation in the use mirror dialog about that.

I guess you mean *not* in any way logical. 

It seems logical to me; the installer wants to find as complete as
possible a copy of the debian archive and doesn't really need to
continue to find other copies once one has been found. Same reason it
doesn't ask for CDs after you've given it DVDs..

> I also think that a lot more users would like to be able to scan additional 
> CDs than you think. Not everybody in the world has broadband.

I think that I have a fairly good understanding of the diversity of
internet connections out there, having spanned dialup, cable, dsl, isdn,
t3 or better, the neighborhood coffee shop, third world networks, and
satellite in a non-linear progression over the past 13 years. :-P

(I upgraded a Debian system behind dialup just last weekend. I
brought a DVD to do it with since 5 hour downloads are not fun.)

The thing is, if you're on dialup, or on a satellite connection that will
be FAPped[2] by a large download, or in a Honduran computer lab with 90%
packet loss to anywhere[1], you just *don't* use network installs and
mirrors. You make the mistake of using a mirror for an install perhaps
once, and then know exactly how painful that is (especially since
apt-setup doesn't allow progress bars to be canceled), and avoid it.

So, it's not really problimatic if the installer asks about using a
mirror before it lets you load your CD set, because you know that's not
the right choice for your situation and can quickly move on to the right
choice.

> I know your aversion against the full CD sets. I remember your blog about 
> it. But I don't think scanning additional CDs if you already have them is 
> in any way harmful.

I'm not adverse to CDs sets, I'm adverse to them being unnecessarily
produced and used. The inverse scenario to the dialup scenario above is
someone in a first world city who orders a 20 CD set because that's what
the average CD vendor sells, and its price is no worse than cab fare.

This user will at some point realise he's been had. Typically this
happens now when he realises that hey, he installed a fully working
Debian system and the only CD he ever used was #1. That seems somehow
better than slowly feeding in all 20 CDs only to be informed at the end
that you can choose to use a mirror instead.

> I agree that downloading/buying/scanning a full set of CDs is silly in 
> almost all cases. However, if you want to do something about that it should 
> be done where users decide to *buy or download* the images: on the website 
> and in documentation.

Unfortunatly, it seems that as long as Debian makes huge CD sets
available for download, they will be what vendors try to sell to users.
After all, a vendor can make a lot more money by selling more plastic.
I've mailed a few vendors and suggested they offer more useful single
CDs, but never heard back.

Summary of all offerings[4] of US CD vendors:

3+ DVD set  14
20+ CD set  9
multiarch DVD   2 [3]
multiarch CD1 [3]
CD #1 only  0
KDE CD  1
Xfce CD 1
netinst CD  0
businesscard CD 0
CD #1-4 + KDE   1

It's quite difficult to find the more useful CDs, like multiarch discs,
single full CDs, and netinsts, while we're awash in 20 CD sets. This is
broken..

-- 
see shy jo

[1] Worst. Internet. Connection. Ever. Took me half a day just to ssh
out and get a glance at my inbox.
[2] If you don't know what this is, you're a very lucky person.
[3] The elusive multiarch CD/DVD is exclusively sold by
http://on-disk.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=43
and http://www.pctech101.com/products.php?cat=30
[4] Omitting vendors still selling sarge, one of whom had the sarge
netinst, one of whom offered just the first full CD, all the rest
had CD sets.


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Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

[Frans Pop]

On Wednesday 31 October 2007, Praveen A wrote:
> [...], when Ubuntu gives everything a normal user wants in one CD.

That's not quite true. AFAIK Ubuntu only distributes _DVDs_ and I'm fairly 
sure that if you take a Debian DVD you will find most of what you would 
want on the first DVD as well.

Thanks for your contribution to the discussion though.

Cheers,
FJP


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Re: Meeting for etch and a half

[dann frazier]

On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 05:36:20PM -0600, dann frazier wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 28, 2007 at 07:14:06PM -0400, David Nusinow wrote:
> > Would someone please post irc logs for those of us who can't make that date?
> 
> Yes, we will.

Here ya go:
  http://meetbot.debian.net/meetbot/debian-release.20071031_1800.html
  http://meetbot.debian.net/meetbot/debian-release.log.20071031_1800.html

-- 
dann frazier


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Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

[Frans Pop]

On Wednesday 31 October 2007, Frans Pop wrote:
> > Neither does installing lilo to one disk and grub to another, but d-i
> > does not prompt the user to choose if they want to use lilo, and follow
> > that up with a separate prompt about whether to use grub. Instead d-i
> > allows the -0.1% of users who need to do this to use the menu in
> > expert mode.
>
> OK, but in your proposal the option to scan additional CDs is _not asked
> at all_ if they choose to use a mirror. A significant difference I'd say.

That's not quite right as lilo is also not asked by default. The difference 
is in the fact that you think using CD sets is a corner case, while I 
don't. Another difference is that the option to use lilo could be 
considered to be an option for expert users (those who (think they) know 
the difference between the two and prefer lilo), while using CD sets is 
something that newbie users are more likely to do and is thus something 
that _should_ be offered during a normal install.

I remember well that I started using debian (not sure if I had 14k4 or 28k8 
modem or already 56k ISDN at the time) using downloaded boot floppies. I 
got stuck. Some time later decided to try again and bought a Potato CD set 
(all three of them and unofficial extra's). For Woody I downloaded CD 1-3; 
pretty sure I was on ISDN by then.

I also remember discussing the with Pema in Bhutan. He told me that his main 
distribution method was going to be multiple CDs (he was regularly pushing 
me about making sure that my CD build scripts would support that) and was 
looking forward to having this option available.


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Re: Reminder: next d-i meeting on Wed 31th Oct, 20:00UTC

[Otavio Salvador]

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Jérémy Bobbio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Hi!
>
> The next monthly meeting for the d-i team was scheduled for Wednesday
> 31th October at 20:00 UTC.  As before, a wiki page [1] is available to
> prepare the agenda and know who will be attending.
>
> [1] http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Meetings/Coordination

I'd like to postpone the meeting for 7th of November, next week, at
20:00 UTC as noone has confirmated presense on the above link.

Please, confirm presense over there so we can discuss Beta1 timeline
and other things too.

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Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

[Praveen A]

2007/10/27, Joey Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Frans Pop wrote:
> No, it's much more natural to optimise for the common case, which is
> using a mirror. Users should not be encouraged to scan huge piles of CDs.
> Huge piles of CDs are obsolete in all but a very few edge cases.

Not at all. Does the first CD provide Open Office? Do you think only
broadband users should have open Office? (Oh you could just select
OpenOffice from synaptic, oh wait synaptic is not in first cd you
should apt-cdrom add and then install synaptic and then install Open
Office or you can just use apt-get/aptitude). This is the kind of geek
elitist attitude that puts off many new users. Even though I wanted to
i can't recommend etch to people here (we don't have broadband that
common - my maximum speed is 30K - I could be considered an internet
elite), when Ubuntu gives everything a normal user wants in one CD.
Even though that could be compensted with 2 cds one has to go through
all these steps -- commandline puts off many newbies -- just to get
Open Office. These users can't even ask for this - since they can't
even check their mails daily. I had asked for this feature before etch
but Frans said it was late for etch.

Thanks a lot Frans for working on it.

> When a user downloads a bunch of CDs they don't neeed, as in your
> example, we've already failed once, let's not fail twice.

We don't have broadband -- leave broadband there is no decent net
connection -- for everyone.
>
> In general, you seem to be assuming that using multiple CDs is something
> other than an exceptional edge case. It is not. That's why I happily
> dropped it from the etch installer, and why only a few users have missed
> it. If you want to fill in that edge case in the installer, that's fine
> (and impressive), but it's not good to complicate the installation
> process for the common case when doing so.

Now we know whom to blame for it :-) What you didn't realise is that
this has hurt lot many users than you have imagined -- many whom
cannot even complain.

It is not an edge case, it was a regression, sarge had it.

Sorry if I sound too much complaining and accusative - this loss of
functionality was really disappointing.

Cheers
Praveen

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Bug#417407: Info received (Bug#417407: installing to a box with suspended system)

[Debian Bug Tracking System]

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and to other interested parties to accompany the original report.

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Bug#417407: installing to a box with suspended system

[Frans Pop]

On Wednesday 31 October 2007, Michal Suchanek wrote:
> I tried to use the installer on a box which had a Linux system
> suspended on one disk. As I noticed that os-prober mounts the
> partitions I did not try to resume.
> According to the software suspend documentation this could cause
> serious data loss, especially since the filesystem loses consistency
> while *mounted*.

The installer will also in principle automatically reuse an existing swap 
partition during the installation...
In my opinion this is a completely different issue than the subject of this 
report.

I also think that trying to do an installation on a system that has an OS in 
suspended state is not very smart. _Any_ installation of an OS is 
inherently risky as you can never be sure exactly what changes it may make 
on disk. Compounding that risk by having operating systems suspended is 
something you should know to avoid as a user.
We could add a warning about that in the installation guide, but I don't 
think there is much more that we can do than that. I would personally 
qualify any data loss resulting from that as being caused by "user error".

Setting follow-up for this to the mailing list as this does not belong in 
this bug report.

Cheers,
FJP


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Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

[Frans Pop]

Your mail seriously put me off for a few days, so I've given myself some 
extra time to think about it.

On Friday 26 October 2007, Joey Hess wrote:
> > As argued above, loading multiple CDs in no way conflicts with using a
> > mirror. IMO we have to always ask both questions.
>
> Neither does installing lilo to one disk and grub to another, but d-i
> does not prompt the user to choose if they want to use lilo, and follow
> that up with a separate prompt about whether to use grub. Instead d-i
> allows the -0.1% of users who need to do this to use the menu in
> expert mode.

OK, but in your proposal the option to scan additional CDs is _not asked at 
all_ if they choose to use a mirror. A significant difference I'd say.

I also still feel that having to say "no" to a mirror is in any way logical 
if you want to use additional CDs, so we'd have to add some sort of ugly 
(conditional!) explanation in the use mirror dialog about that.

> > Also, first letting the user scan all CDs and then asking about adding
> > a mirror is a lot more logical than the other way around:
> > a) it seems not very natural to first scan the installation CD, then do
> > other stuff, and then go back to scanning CDs
>
> Scanning the first CD doesn't involve the user doing something, so most
> users will not particularly notice it's happened.

It still is visible for users who pay attention and it is also visible 
because of the way the mirror question is phrased.

> > b) it is much more natural to have a user consider:
> > - "OK, I've now scanned this huge pile of CDs; do I still want to use a
> >mirror in addition to that or not?"
>
> No, it's much more natural to optimise for the common case, which is
> using a mirror.

I don't think adding a single question that is only asked when it is 
relevant and has a default of "no" is a loss of optimization.
I also think that a lot more users would like to be able to scan additional 
CDs than you think. Not everybody in the world has broadband.

> Users should not be encouraged to scan huge piles of CDs. 
> Huge piles of CDs are obsolete in all but a very few edge cases.

I know your aversion against the full CD sets. I remember your blog about 
it. But I don't think scanning additional CDs if you already have them is 
in any way harmful.

I also don't think my changes "encourage them" as:
- the question is only asked when there is a real possibility the user
  may have additional CDs available
- the default of the question is "no" which is an indication that you
  don't absolutely need additional CDs; the question also includes the
  qualification "if available"

I also very much doubt users who are at this stage of the installation and 
don't have multiple CDs will suddenly decide to break off the install and 
rush off to download/buy the full set and start the install over.

I agree that downloading/buying/scanning a full set of CDs is silly in 
almost all cases. However, if you want to do something about that it should 
be done where users decide to *buy or download* the images: on the website 
and in documentation.
What your proposal here does is punishing users who already have multiple 
CDs (and hopefully a lot will probably only have a limited number instead 
of the full set anyway) by hiding the question behind an unrelated other 
question and thus effectively not making the option available at all.

> Prompting for additional CDs will make the user feel that he should
> provide them, which is typically a waste of his time and leads to a
> system that is less functional (because apt asks you to switch CDs all
> the time). Or more likely, it will make the user worry that he doesn't
> have more than one CD.

Nonsense. I'm perfectly willing to clarify this in the dialog (or maybe 
better in an additional dialog after the user has chosen yes), but I 
completely disagree with this. See above.

> > than:
> > - "hey, they're asking me if I want to use a mirror; do I need one? I
> >probably do as apparently I cannot use this shitload of CDs they let
> >me download and burn..."
>
> When a user downloads a bunch of CDs they don't neeed, as in your
> example, we've already failed once, let's not fail twice.

Let's not punish them either if they've already done so...

> In general, you seem to be assuming that using multiple CDs is something
> other than an exceptional edge case. It is not. That's why I happily
> dropped it from the etch installer, and why only a few users have missed
> it.

On the other hand, we've listed the lack of support as a "known issue" and 
we've had it high on our TODO list. A fair number of installation reports 
has mentioned it as something that was missing.

And, as said before, I think it is wanted a lot more than you think. Not for 
full sets, but I think for a lot of users downloading the first 2-4 CDs can 
be a very sensible option. Consider for example the PowerPC case where CD1 
hardly contains anything beyond the base system.
And I've argue

Bug#417407: installing to a box with suspended system

[Michal Suchanek]

Hello,

I tried to use the installer on a box which had a Linux system
suspended on one disk. As I noticed that os-prober mounts the
partitions I did not try to resume.
According to the software suspend documentation this could cause
serious data loss, especially since the filesystem loses consistency
while *mounted*.

Thanks

Michal



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Bug#201191: Cycle tracks will abound in Utopia.

[Aurelia Chung]

Buenos dias!
If you think you're free, there's no escape possible.
Never the time and the place and the loved one all together!
A person is either the effect of his environment or is able to have an effect 
upon his environment.





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Re: FYI: Issues using VirtualBox for development of the Debian Installer

[Frans Pop]

On Wednesday 31 October 2007, Frans Pop wrote:
> I've created a wiki page for VirtualBox that explains this.

A link to the page would probably be useful:
http://wiki.debian.org/VirtualBox


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Re: FYI: Issues using VirtualBox for development of the Debian Installer

[Frans Pop]

On Monday 29 October 2007, Frans Pop wrote:
> On Monday 29 October 2007, Frans Pop wrote:
> > 1) Should allow the use of ctrl-alt-Fx for console switching
> > For the graphical installer the _only_ way to switch from the main
> > console to any of the others is to use the ctrl-alt- key
> > combinations. As these are currently not captured inside the VM, VBox
> > is not usable for testing the graphical version of the installer.
>
> Turns out this _is_ possible by using the key combo -Fx (where
>  is the key configured in preferences->input).
> This also works for crtl-alt-del and ctrl-alt-backspace.

I've created a wiki page for VirtualBox that explains this.

The page also gives instructions on how to set up your system so VirtualBox 
can be used with bridged networking, which allows you to netboot the VM and 
use D-I's http server to view logs.

> 2) NAT networking connection lost after making new snapshot

This issue will be fixed in VirtualBox 1.5.4. It was fixed upstream only a 
few hours after I filed the BR :-)


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Bug#179243: read and think

[Earl Lara]

I have quit smoking and not only have i not had a cigarette for over 10 weeks, 
but every other aspect of my life is more positive. my only regret now is the 
10 years i spent a slave.
Moises


  Free Smile in  life without cigarettes