Re: Review of console-setup wrt D-I [very long]
On Sunday 28 June 2009, Samuel Thibault wrote: I have no idea what the difference between Netherlands and Netherlands - Standard is. Such problems have to be reported upstream. There are a fair number of differences between those two variants in /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols/nl, albeit mostly at higher shift levels. I agree, this should be taken up with XKB upstream if it's an issue, rather than us carving out our own little silo. It's not exactly this issue, but it's still related to Frans' concern about origin of keyboards: http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21046 Bug 21046 ??? express that the us layout makes the majority in a bunch of countries In short, upstream agreed that the nl layout should have something like a uk variant, however Sergey doesn't know how that should be called, and neither do I. Could NL people comment on the bug? Eh, I *am* an NL person... I thought I'd already made my comments clear and explained the Dutch situation. Both in this thread and the BR from Kurt about Altgr (#524235). 1) Some time ago I set the default in c-s for NL to 'us' (r58049). 2) Origin as question sucks majorly. 3) Both Dutch keymaps and American English keymaps are in use, but the Dutch ones are a relatively small minority. 4) If one of the variants currently listed under Netherlands really is the American English layout then that is absolutely not obvious. I would *NEVER* have understood that from the current descriptions. 5) Dutch people very much *do* still type accented characters. Accented characters are an important element of the language. Just see the Dutch D-I PO files translation of the manual. My personal preference when using an American English keyboard is to define right alt as compose key for that. 6) Both the Dutch and American English keyboards in NL do sometimes have the € symbol; I've seen it on on both the 5 key and the e key. I have no idea how many do (not) have it and how many have it on 5/e. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Review of console-setup wrt D-I [very long]
On Sunday 28 June 2009, Frans Pop wrote: Eh, I *am* an NL person... I thought I'd already made my comments clear and explained the Dutch situation. Both in this thread and the BR from Kurt about Altgr (#524235). 1) Some time ago I set the default in c-s for NL to 'us' (r58049). 2) Origin as question sucks majorly. 3) Both Dutch keymaps and American English keymaps are in use, but the Dutch ones are a relatively small minority. 4) If one of the variants currently listed under Netherlands really is the American English layout then that is absolutely not obvious. I would *NEVER* have understood that from the current descriptions. 5) Dutch people very much *do* still type accented characters. Accented characters are an important element of the language. Just see the Dutch D-I PO files translation of the manual. My personal preference when using an American English keyboard is to define right alt as compose key for that. 6) Both the Dutch and American English keyboards in NL do sometimes have the € symbol; I've seen it on on both the 5 key and the e key. I have no idea how many do (not) have it and how many have it on 5/e. What we probably should check is what keyboard config default Windows installs use in NL and see if we can match that. I'll see if I can gather some info about that and also check where the € key is on systems currently being sold here. But that will take time. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Review of console-setup wrt D-I [very long]
Hello, Frans Pop, le Sun 28 Jun 2009 09:09:20 +0200, a écrit : http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21046 Could NL people comment on the bug? Eh, I *am* an NL person... I know. I thought I'd already made my comments clear and explained the Dutch situation. I know the situation. What I'm talking about is this: 3) Both Dutch keymaps and American English keymaps are in use, but the Dutch ones are a relatively small minority. 4) If one of the variants currently listed under Netherlands really is the American English layout then that is absolutely not obvious. I would *NEVER* have understood that from the current descriptions. That's why it I prompted for choosing a correct naming for the upstream bug report above. 2) Origin as question sucks majorly. The problem is: how should things be called? kbd-chooser used to just throw one list at the user. It used to not be so big, but that's not a scalable solution, as there _are_ a lot of different keyboards. Maybe we can clean some variants out (like all the dvorak variants which double the number of variants), but that still leaves a long list. Here, Origin means where you bought the keyboard, it is a quite clear question, provided that there is a US variant listed in the different layouts for countries which usually sell it. Another way I had thought about would be to first show a list of all the keyboards known to be used by the combination of country/language given at the localechooser stage, for instance en_CA would just propose the american layout while the fr_CA would just propose the canadian layout. And a choice like not in this list, which brings to a second list with all the keyboards known to be used in the country (i.e. the Origin question is not asked, it just defaults to the localechooser country). Again a not in this list choice would bring to a third list with a list of layouts for all countries, but with a lot of variants removed (e.g. legacy, dvorak). Eventually, a not in this list would bring to a fourth list with really all the variants. 5) Dutch people very much *do* still type accented characters. ERrr, really? That's not what dutch people I've talked with told me. Anyway, that's not the question at stake. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Review of console-setup wrt D-I [very long]
On Sunday 28 June 2009, Samuel Thibault wrote: I know the situation. What I'm talking about is this: 3) Both Dutch keymaps and American English keymaps are in use, but the Dutch ones are a relatively small minority. 4) If one of the variants currently listed under Netherlands really is the American English layout then that is absolutely not obvious. I would *NEVER* have understood that from the current descriptions. That's why it I prompted for choosing a correct naming for the upstream bug report above. I would just call it the American English layout versus the Dutch layout. After all, that's what they are. And you'd probably need to offer some additional choices: - American English layout with € on 5 key - American English layout with € on E key - American English layout with right-Alt key as compose - US International layout (with right-Alt key as AltGr) But as I said in my previous mail, that would depend on what is actually in circulation and what people are used to in Windows. I just don't know. 2) Origin as question sucks majorly. The problem is: how should things be called? kbd-chooser used to just throw one list at the user. It used to not be so big, but that's not a scalable solution, as there _are_ a lot of different keyboards. Maybe we can clean some variants out (like all the dvorak variants which double the number of variants), but that still leaves a long list. The variant question is actually not be that bad, especially if you'd omit all the variants that are not even included in the initrd (such as the sun, atari and amiga ones). And if you'd then split out Dvorak as well, you'd really be going somewhere. Here, Origin means where you bought the keyboard, it is a quite clear question, provided that there is a US variant listed in the different layouts for countries which usually sell it. Another way I had thought about would be to first show a list of all the keyboards known to be used by the combination of country/language given at the localechooser stage, for instance en_CA would just propose the american layout while the fr_CA would just propose the canadian layout. And a choice like not in this list, which brings to a second list with all the keyboards known to be used in the country (i.e. the Origin question is not asked, it just defaults to the localechooser country). Again a not in this list choice would bring to a third list with a list of layouts for all countries, but with a lot of variants removed (e.g. legacy, dvorak). Eventually, a not in this list would bring to a fourth list with really all the variants. Now _that_ I could understand. The origin question should really only be displayed if someone chooses other from the country-specific variant list. Just as we do in localechooser for languages with shortlists: you get the shortlist by default, but if you want to choose a country that's not in the shortlist you can. And note that I spent quite some time on localechooser for Lenny to break the full country list up into first a selection by continent and then by country. And I'd really hate to see us have *two* sets of dialogs that basically ask to select a country. That would really be a waste of memory. So, can we maybe factor that out of localechooser in such a way that the continent/country templates can be reused in c-s? Now *that* would be integrating c-s properly into D-I... BTW, I would expect there are people in NL using Dvorak, but it's not being offered as a choice there... Anyway, I still stand by my comment that the _current_ implementation in c-s is a major usability regression. 5) Dutch people very much *do* still type accented characters. ERrr, really? That's not what dutch people I've talked with told me. Anyway, that's not the question at stake. See these pages from a Dutch on-line newspaper: http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/4270616/__Strengere_controle_op_prive-gebruik_zakenauto__.html?p=40,1 http://www.telegraaf.nl/buitenland/4270520/__Belgisch_pardon_voor_illegalen__.html?p=40,2 They have: privé, België Or google for reeen (should be reeën; plural for deer) with language set to Dutch. I'll believe you if people say they don't bother in informal emails or SMS, but ask them if they also don't bother when writing an application for a job... Also ask them what gets taught in schools today. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Review of console-setup wrt D-I [very long]
Frans Pop, le Sun 28 Jun 2009 13:00:19 +0200, a écrit : BTW, I would expect there are people in NL using Dvorak, but it's not being offered as a choice there... Because xkb doesn't have that layout. 5) Dutch people very much *do* still type accented characters. ERrr, really? That's not what dutch people I've talked with told me. Anyway, that's not the question at stake. See these pages from a Dutch on-line newspaper: http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/4270616/__Strengere_controle_op_prive-gebruik_zakenauto__.html?p=40,1 http://www.telegraaf.nl/buitenland/4270520/__Belgisch_pardon_voor_illegalen__.html?p=40,2 That's newspaper, not everyday writing. I'll believe you if people say they don't bother in informal emails or SMS, but ask them if they also don't bother when writing an application for a job... They told me rather for writing their PhD. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Review of console-setup wrt D-I [very long]
Samuel Thibault, le Sun 28 Jun 2009 11:59:26 +0200, a écrit : Another way I had thought about would be to first show a list of all the keyboards known to be used by the combination of country/language given at the localechooser stage, Note: there is enough information in xkb-data to achieve this automatically, I can work on it (I have already done something similar actually). Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Review of console-setup wrt D-I [very long]
On Sunday 28 June 2009, Samuel Thibault wrote: Frans Pop, le Sun 28 Jun 2009 13:00:19 +0200, a ?crit : BTW, I would expect there are people in NL using Dvorak, but it's not being offered as a choice there... Because xkb doesn't have that layout. Do you mean that xkb has a _separate_ layout for Netherlands - American English? That is... insane. In that case there really _should_ be a Netherlands - Dvorak layout as well. And shouldn't also a Netherlands - Sun American English be offered besides the existing Netherlands - Sun dead keys one? (I actually have a Sun Type 5 keyboard with us layout which originally came from some Dutch educational or research institute and I really do NOT want dead keys with that.) And... Do you see the problem here? The country-based hierarchy used by upstream is fundamentally broken and trying to patch it by selectively adding some non-existing variants like Netherlands - American English does nothing to solve that. What could possibly work is some ability to define cheap symlinks, but duplicating entire layouts really is insane (IMHO). 5) Dutch people very much *do* still type accented characters. ERrr, really? That's not what dutch people I've talked with told me. Anyway, that's not the question at stake. See these pages from a Dutch on-line newspaper: http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/4270616/__Strengere_controle_op_pr ive-gebruik_zakenauto__.html?p=40,1 http://www.telegraaf.nl/buitenland/4270520/__Belgisch_pardon_voor_ill egalen__.html?p=40,2 That's newspaper, not everyday writing. So newspaper people are not allowed to use Debian? Or closer to home: am I not allowed to have a decent keyboard layout as I do prefer to properly use accents? I'll believe you if people say they don't bother in informal emails or SMS, but ask them if they also don't bother when writing an application for a job... They told me rather for writing their PhD. And that gets accepted? /me cries... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Review of console-setup wrt D-I [very long]
On Sunday 28 June 2009, you wrote: Now _that_ I could understand. The origin question should really only be displayed if someone chooses other from the country-specific variant list. But even then I find the origin prompt confusing, especially because people are used to selecting a layout directly. I would phrase the question something like this. snip After selecting a country from the list below, you will be offered a selection of different keyboard layouts commonly found in that country. Country: /snip -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Review of console-setup wrt D-I [very long]
(resending for proper threading) On Sunday 28 June 2009, you wrote: Now _that_ I could understand. The origin question should really only be displayed if someone chooses other from the country-specific variant list. But even then I find the origin prompt confusing, especially because people are used to selecting a layout directly. I would phrase the question something like this. snip After selecting a country from the list below, you will be offered a selection of different keyboard layouts commonly found in that country. Country: /snip -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Review of console-setup wrt D-I [very long]
Frans Pop, le Sun 28 Jun 2009 13:45:33 +0200, a écrit : On Sunday 28 June 2009, Samuel Thibault wrote: Frans Pop, le Sun 28 Jun 2009 13:00:19 +0200, a ?crit : BTW, I would expect there are people in NL using Dvorak, but it's not being offered as a choice there... Because xkb doesn't have that layout. Do you mean that xkb has a _separate_ layout for Netherlands - American English? That is... insane. Err, no, it has an entry in the nl part that includes the american layout. In that case there really _should_ be a Netherlands - Dvorak layout as well. If someone could implement the dutch dvorak, sure. Remember that dvorak is per-language. You can always use the english dvorak for Dutch, but that's not efficient. What could possibly work is some ability to define cheap symlinks, but duplicating entire layouts really is insane (IMHO). xkb uses cheap symlinks. They just need to be defined. Talk with the upstream bug report, really. 5) Dutch people very much *do* still type accented characters. ERrr, really? That's not what dutch people I've talked with told me. Anyway, that's not the question at stake. See these pages from a Dutch on-line newspaper: http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/4270616/__Strengere_controle_op_pr ive-gebruik_zakenauto__.html?p=40,1 http://www.telegraaf.nl/buitenland/4270520/__Belgisch_pardon_voor_ill egalen__.html?p=40,2 That's newspaper, not everyday writing. So newspaper people are not allowed to use Debian? Don't make me say what I didn't say. I actually don't know why you raised that point at all. I'll believe you if people say they don't bother in informal emails or SMS, but ask them if they also don't bother when writing an application for a job... They told me rather for writing their PhD. And that gets accepted? /me cries... AGAIN, don't make me say what I didn't say, or ask for better wording. I meant that they didn't care about accents before having to write their PhD. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Review of console-setup wrt D-I [very long]
On Sunday 28 June 2009, Samuel Thibault wrote: In that case there really _should_ be a Netherlands - Dvorak layout as well. If someone could implement the dutch dvorak, sure. Remember that dvorak is per-language. You can always use the english dvorak for Dutch, but that's not efficient. It is a necessary consequence of the proposal to make the *country* the primary selection mechanism instead of selecting the correct nationality for the standard. If you want to do that you have to make sure *all* keyboard variants ever sold in any reasonable numbers in a country need to be listed for that country. What could possibly work is some ability to define cheap symlinks, but duplicating entire layouts really is insane (IMHO). xkb uses cheap symlinks. They just need to be defined. Talk with the upstream bug report, really. No thanks, I have no interest in helping to promote an insane scheme. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Review of console-setup wrt D-I [very long]
On Sunday 28 June 2009, Colin Watson wrote: I think we should stop asking this question entirely. Hardly anyone really needs anything other than pc105, except for the Brazilian and Japanese cases that can be derived automatically from the keyboard layout anyway. How appropriate is pc105 as a default? None of the 7 keyboards [1] I have here has the extra LSGT key ( + ), so they are all pc104... But I agree that in principle it can be derived from the layout. AFAIK the US layout is pc104 while the European layouts (including the English and Dutch one) are pc105. See for example [2]. [1] 3 PS/2; 1 USB; 1 Sun type 5; 2 laptop [2] http://www.cherrykeyboardsrus.co.uk/images/g83-6000 ps2 v05(2).pdf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Review of console-setup wrt D-I [very long]
Frans Pop, le Sun 28 Jun 2009 14:36:25 +0200, a écrit : On Sunday 28 June 2009, Samuel Thibault wrote: In that case there really _should_ be a Netherlands - Dvorak layout as well. If someone could implement the dutch dvorak, sure. Remember that dvorak is per-language. You can always use the english dvorak for Dutch, but that's not efficient. It is a necessary consequence of the proposal to make the *country* the primary selection mechanism instead of selecting the correct nationality for the standard. I don't understand how dvorak being language-based is a consequence of that. It's an intrisic of dvorak layouts to be language-based. What could possibly work is some ability to define cheap symlinks, but duplicating entire layouts really is insane (IMHO). xkb uses cheap symlinks. They just need to be defined. Talk with the upstream bug report, really. No thanks, I have no interest in helping to promote an insane scheme. Which scheme are you talking about? Calling it insane doesn't help the discussion, really. I'm here talking about arranging variants in the nl layout so that in my proposal (several size-increasing lists of layouts), the us variant appears in the very first list thanks to being announced in xkb-data's nl layout, the rationale being that it's really widespread in NL (that wouldn't be the case for FR for instance). Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#515614: Lenny installer 5.0.2
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Only for information: Same behaviour with the actual installer 5.0.2 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFKR3fQkmK4ErR8cgQRAuujAKCAGLocN9k5n3zNLpVjXuqs8mwyQwCghy7M BPBMyBP6rdDpE5PSNKhY/hY= =zuZY -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Processing of live-installer_11_i386.changes
live-installer_11_i386.changes uploaded successfully to localhost along with the files: live-installer_11.dsc live-installer_11.tar.gz live-installer_11_i386.udeb Greetings, Your Debian queue daemon -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
live-installer_11_i386.changes ACCEPTED
Accepted: live-installer_11.dsc to pool/main/l/live-installer/live-installer_11.dsc live-installer_11.tar.gz to pool/main/l/live-installer/live-installer_11.tar.gz live-installer_11_i386.udeb to pool/main/l/live-installer/live-installer_11_i386.udeb Override entries for your package: live-installer_11.dsc - source debian-installer live-installer_11_i386.udeb - optional debian-installer Announcing to debian-devel-chan...@lists.debian.org Thank you for your contribution to Debian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
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Reducing the complication of choices in console-setup udeb config: first thought
In followup to Frans' review, please find here my current thoughts about possible ways to greatly simplify things when configuring console-setup *in D-I* as well as greatly reduce the size impact. The general idea would be *selecting* a number of model|layout|variant that are well suited with respect to the languages we support in D-I. This, for each architecture... In short, mimic what we're currently doing in console-data. Each of these sets would be given their name as in xkeyboard-config. The general rule would then be: one language, one layoutwith exceptions when established practice needs them. The starting point is then the language list. For each language, we would then list model|layout|variant combinations that are needed to properly support it and that is the accepted enough default for that language. Let's take a few examples: Albanian: there is currently no keymap for it in console-data. c-s has pc105|al|al named Albania. We take this one Dutch: us is currently used by default. D-I also proposes Dutch as alternative. We thus take pc105|us|us-intl and pc105|nl|nl French: fr-latin9 is used by default. D-I also proposes be2-latin1, cf, fr_CH-latin1. We thus take pc105|fr|fr and pc105|be|be, pc105|fr|ca-legacy and pc105|ch|fr Gujarati: nothing by default now (so us). We can choose pc105|in|guj ...and so on... The general idea would then be to: -check what we currently have for that language in console-data udebs -if there is something specific for that language: - find the most appropriate corresponding model|layout|variant combination(s) - if there is more than one variant, try finding the most often used -if there is nothign for that language in c-d: - find the most appropriate corresponding model|layout|variant combination(s) Here is what I come with (to be completed...I stopped at Kazakh): Albanian;us;pc105|al|al; Amharic;us;pc105|et|et; Arabic;us;pc105|ara|ara;* Asturian;es;pc105|es|ast; Basque;es;pc105|es|es;* Belarusian;by;pc105|by|by;* Bengali;us;pc105|in|ben; Bosnian;croat;pc105|ba|ba;* Bulgarian;bg;pc105|bg|bg;* Catalan;es;pc105|es|cat; Chinese (Simplified);us;pc105|cn|cn;* Chinese (Traditional);us;pc105|cn|cn;* Croatian;croat;pc105|hr|hr;* Czech;cz-lat2;pc105|cz|cz;* Danish;dk-latin1;pc105|dk|dk;* Dutch;us;pc105|us|alt-intl;*;also add nl|nl Dzongkha;us;pc105|bt|bt English;us|uk;pc105|us|us;*;also add uk? Esperanto;us;pc105|epo|epo;* Estonian;et;pc105|ee|ee;* Finnish;fi-latin1;pc105|fi|fi;* French;fr-latin9|be2-latin1|cf|fr_CH-latin1;pc105|fr|fr;*;also add be|be, ca|fr-legacy or ca|multi, ch|fr Galician;es;pc105|es|es;* Georgian;us;pc105|ge|ge;* German;de-latin1-nodeadkeys|sg-latin1;pc105|de|nodeadkeys;*;also add ch|de_nodeadkeys Greek;gr;pc105|gr|gr;* Gujarati;us;pc105|in|guj; Hebrew;hebrew;pc105|il|il;* Hindi;us;pc105|in|in; Hungarian;hu;pc105|hu|hu;* Indonesian;us;pc105|us|us; Irish;uk;pc105|ie|ie;* Italian;it;pc105|it|it;* Japanese;us;jp106|us|us;* Kazakh;us;kz|kz|* The first column is the language name The second column is the default keymap for that language in c-d (for some langs, there might be more than onesee French above) The third column gives the model|layout|variant combination that seems best suited for that language The fourth column has an asterisk if other variants exist, which means we should ask to this language users for the most often used variant The fifth columns is for remarks (often the need to add another model|layout|variant combination) Once this analysis has been done for all supported language, we will end up with a list of model|layout|variant combinations that is quite sustainable (probably around 70 for i386|amd64 and much much less for arches where there is a need for a dedicated list)...and thus have only *one* question. Here is what I come as of now. There is probably a lot to comment (particularly about the implementation) but I hope you get the picture enough now...:) Of course, once this is implemented, we would need to make this list live when adding|dropping languages (but somethign like this is already done in the new language process anyway). signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Reformulation of criticisms about console-setup switch (was: Re: Review of console-setup wrt D-I [very long])
Quoting Frans Pop (elen...@planet.nl): On Tuesday 02 June 2009, Christian Perrier wrote: One of the release goals of Debian Installer for squeeze is dropping the use of console-data keyboard mappings, to replace them by console-setup [1]. Here are (finally) the results of my tests. Sorry for the delay; I will During two long train trips, I carefully read Frans mail as well as the followups made by others. In the following, I tried to reformulate the main criticisms in a few categories. The point is checking whether we share our understanding of the problems...and throw out a few vague ideas about possible ways to address these concerns. Size impact --- General concern. Possible solutions: - solve other issues...particularly the one about too many choices and the one about useless questions. Special handling of translations Translations of keyboard layout, model, variant are handled in /usr/share/c-s-mini/c-s.config. That brings a significant impact over handling them in debconf as it doesn't allow dropping translations to save memory as it's donne in low memory situations. My understanding of the rationale for this: terms for these choices come from xkeyboard-config and are translated there. So, the first proposed implementation has been to take the strings and translations from there and inject them in the config script. Possible solutions: - build the templates files in a similar way to localechooser and iso-codes, taking translations from xkeyboard-config .mo files - ? Offering keymaps for all architectures -- In expert mode, keymap models for all arches are proposed. Possble solutions: - clean this out? :-) Too many choices The c-s udeb proposes everything proposed by xkeyboard-config. That makes way too many possible combinations, therefore confusing choices and a size impact (because of i18n). Possible solutions: - instead of a everything possible in xkb-data, simplify the choices list by reducing to one keymap, eventually two, for each supported language Wording problems for some choices - USA vs American English... We actually *already* had this debate about console-data and the clear conclusion was that using country names is very often wrong: keymaps are most often designed by the language they're designed for, first, then *eventually* differenciated by country names. Possible solutions: - change names..:-)...which actually means moving away from xkeyboard-config names and use our own naming scheme, eventually re-using names from console-data, that have proven being accepted for years. Useless questions - Some questions were not formerly asked and seem generally useless *even in expert mode*. Questioned templates: altgr, compose, encoding, charset, console font, font size, virtual consoles Possible solutions: - discuss about them and drop the useless questions (at least in D-I). Yes, that may mean not having the same codebase in D-I and outside D-I but we could also wonder whether those questions are relevant for standard installation of the package, anyway. Preseeding broken - That issue seems related to not able to configure the keyboard twice. Possible solutions: - fix the configure twice problem - really test preseeding Allow skipping keyboard configuration - There's a regression here. Possible solutions: - add a medium priority question allowing to *not* configure the keyboard just like kbd-chooser is doing. One really needs to first check how that's done in kbd-chooser (which I can't as I'm anything but fluent in C) Skip configuration for Serial and UML installs --- Another regression. Possible solutions: - probably related to Allow skipping Needs to use debian-installer/serial-console and debian-installer/uml-console Compose key does not work in D-I already reported: find bug number signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: List spam cleanup: half-time scores
Quoting Frans Pop (elen...@planet.nl): Holger and Christian have already started the reviews for the next two years: 2004 and 2005. Detailed info is available from: http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/SpamClean Small update: 2005 has been processed by Holger Wansing and myself (plus 3 months done by Don Wright additionnally). So, we need 3-4 people to work on these months so that more spam is identified for reviewing. I completed 2004 (the biggest year ever, for D-I, sometimes with up to 4000 messages a month), and Holger is on his way completing it as well. It will take time to process these months. I actually wonder whether we could ask listmasters to lower down the bar for years before 2005 or so. Otherwise, knowing that this is huge work is likely to discourage everybody. About the spam storm of August 2008, I proposed Cord to remove those mails but got no answer (or missed it). I just completed 2003 which is *much more* easier as months have about 500 messages for the first half of the year and about 1000 for the second half. There is few spam in 2003 (but stiil between 20 and 40 each month). I'll continue going backwards. My current conclusion is that grabbing the list archives as mailboxes, processing them through crm114 and then browse then in mutt is *very* efficient. I actually completed 2003 in about 3.5 hours of quiet train travel. About signalled spam reviews: as of June 21st, I was up-to-date for -boot but very few new spams were marked between June 14th and 21st. This is certainly the consequence of processing work being done by Holger and myself only these weeks. I still have to process the result for June 28th but I don't expect much more signalled spams. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#533091: archive.gpg in amd64 netboot.tar.gz for etch
Hello Luk, On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Luk Claesl...@debian.org wrote: If it's binNMU safe, we could try a binNMU, otherwise it's best to either do a porter NMU if possible or a sourceful upload otherwise. Yeah, binNMU ought to work fine. Please go ahead with that. -- Otavio Salvador O.S. Systems E-mail: ota...@ossystems.com.br http://www.ossystems.com.br Mobile: +55 53 9981-7854 http://projetos.ossystems.com.br -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Reducing the complication of choices in console-setup udeb config: first thought
Hello, Christian Perrier, le Sun 28 Jun 2009 19:43:01 +0200, a écrit : The general rule would then be: one language, one layoutwith exceptions when established practice needs them. I'd even say, one language/country, one layout. Note for instance french, for which there are a lot of layouts, from BE, CA, CH, FR, ... But there is little chance getting wrong when taking the country into account too. That's why I proposed to first have a list for each country/language pair. Then a list for each language can be used if the user is not happy with the former. Here is what I come with (to be completed...I stopped at Kazakh): No need to do it by hand, it can be automated from xkeyboard-config's data. Any divergence from a hand-written version is just a bug in xkeyboard-config. probably around 70 for i386|amd64 and much much less for arches where there is a need for a dedicated list Why a dedicated list? Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#533091: archive.gpg in amd64 netboot.tar.gz for etch
Otavio Salvador wrote: Hello Luk, On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Luk Claesl...@debian.org wrote: If it's binNMU safe, we could try a binNMU, otherwise it's best to either do a porter NMU if possible or a sourceful upload otherwise. Yeah, binNMU ought to work fine. Please go ahead with that. binNMU scheduled Cheers Luk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Review of console-setup wrt D-I [very long]
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 01:00:19PM +0200, Frans Pop wrote: I would just call it the American English layout versus the Dutch layout. After all, that's what they are. And you'd probably need to offer some additional choices: - American English layout with € on 5 key - American English layout with € on E key You'll be hard pressed to find a true US keyboard with a € key on it. I think it would be more accurate to refer to this is a qwerty layout - but would that be understood by Dutch users, and does it disambiguate it from the other nl layout? -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Review of console-setup wrt D-I [very long]
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 03:05:22PM +0200, Frans Pop wrote: On Sunday 28 June 2009, Colin Watson wrote: I think we should stop asking this question entirely. Hardly anyone really needs anything other than pc105, except for the Brazilian and Japanese cases that can be derived automatically from the keyboard layout anyway. How appropriate is pc105 as a default? None of the 7 keyboards [1] I have here has the extra LSGT key ( + ), so they are all pc104... What does it hurt to have a mapping for LSGT that doesn't have a corresponding physical key? AFAICS, this is a detail that users shouldn't have to care about, as long as the map gives them some other way to type . -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
