Bug#261415: network installation always asks for proxy

2017-01-23 Thread Josh Triplett 
On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 09:26:31AM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 11:31:37PM -0800, Josh Triplett wrote:
> > I do think we ought to attempt autodetection for this.  As long as a
> > means exists for preseeders and expert installs to specify one anyway
> > (for optional caching proxies), autodetecting by default seems like a
> > good idea, to eliminate one of the more highly technical questions in
> > the install.
> 
> Just how would you autodetect if a proxy should be used?  You can detect
> if internet access works without one perhaps, but that doesn't mean a
> proxy isn't desired.

"Desired but not required for outbound connectivity" seems like exactly
the case for having an alternative means of specifying the proxy, such
as going back from the download screen, handling errors, and supporting
expert installs.

> I have actually encountered a network where the
> firewall allowed access to one debian mirror without going through the
> proxy, but security required going through a proxy.  Good luck detecting
> that mess correctly.

Fascinating.  I think we can only deal with network-specific brokenness
to a point; if we attempt to download from security and get through, we
could consider the network apparently working without a proxy.

(Debian really needs a canonical "connectivity-detection" page, similar
to Google's /generate_204 page.)

Bug#261415: network installation always asks for proxy

2017-01-23 Thread Lennart Sorensen 
On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 11:31:37PM -0800, Josh Triplett wrote:
> I do think we ought to attempt autodetection for this.  As long as a
> means exists for preseeders and expert installs to specify one anyway
> (for optional caching proxies), autodetecting by default seems like a
> good idea, to eliminate one of the more highly technical questions in
> the install.

Just how would you autodetect if a proxy should be used?  You can detect
if internet access works without one perhaps, but that doesn't mean a
proxy isn't desired.  I have actually encountered a network where the
firewall allowed access to one debian mirror without going through the
proxy, but security required going through a proxy.  Good luck detecting
that mess correctly.

-- 
Len Sorensen

Bug#261415: network installation always asks for proxy

2017-01-23 Thread Josh Triplett 
On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 10:33:38AM +0100, Philip Hands wrote:
> Josh Triplett  writes:
> 
> > On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 23:49:59 +0100 Cyril Brulebois  wrote:
> >> Martin Pitt  (2004-03-24):
> >> > - network installation always asks for proxy; I know what a proxy is,
> >> >   but not all potential users may; would it be possible to try without
> >> >   proxy first and ask for proxy settings only if direct connection
> >> >   does not work?  Never mind if that is not possible, just asking :-)
> >> 
> >> Some translations have a less-techy way of explaining what a proxy is,
> >> and a default empty value should just be OK (people are expected to
> >> install Debian by pressing Enter most of the time, right? :)). I'm not
> >> sure we want to play with trial-and-error in d-i too much…
> >> 
> >> Tagging wontfix for now to allow for somebody to step up and say
> >> otherwise.
> >
> > I do think we ought to attempt autodetection for this.  As long as a
> > means exists for preseeders and expert installs to specify one anyway
> > (for optional caching proxies), autodetecting by default seems like a
> > good idea, to eliminate one of the more highly technical questions in
> > the install.
> 
> I've certainly been behind site-wide filtering that plays badly with
> package downloads, where someone in the IT department has routed round
> that by setting up a secret ADSL line that can be used if one specifies
> a proxy using IP:port that's scribbled on the office whiteboard.
> 
> I suspect that pretty-much any test you can think of will result in you
> going via the filter, and thus getting really dire download rates (In
> the case I'm thinking of ~20kbits/s on a 10Gbit/s line, out-of-hours --
> the filter was also not caching its own results, so it didn't even speed
> up for subsequent downloads)

Bypassing someone's local caching proxy would similarly make someone
unhappy.  However, that scenario seems sufficiently rare compared to the
common case that I think we can tell people, via release notes, that
they should either do an expert install or otherwise specify the proxy
another way.  Or, as you sugest below, let people cancel and go back.

> Making it difficult to perform a test install on such a site will drive
> new users elsewhere.
> 
> Of course, incomprehensible questions will also drive users elsewhere,
> so we need to make sure that people understand that they almost
> certainly don't care, unless they already know that they do care.
> 
> I could imagine using auto-detection to populate default values for a
> site's proxy, assuming that the software to achieve that has a decent
> chance of success, and isn't too big.

In the general case, you'd need a Javascript interpreter. :)

> Alternatively, one could make sure that the subsequent package download
> progress page made it clear that it would be safe to cancel that, and
> that doing so would let one back up and specify a proxy to go via and
> then retry the install -- that would let the person looking at a
> download that's going depressingly slowly plenty of time to remember
> that they have a faster alternative, and the reassurance that they can
> switch to it without having to start the install from scratch (assuming
> we can get the code to work that way).

That sounds reasonable.

- Josh Triplett

Bug#261415: network installation always asks for proxy

2017-01-23 Thread Geert Stappers 

Thing we really should prevent is hiding that a proxy might be needed.

Bug#261415: network installation always asks for proxy

2017-01-23 Thread Philip Hands 
Geert Stappers  writes:

>> 
>> Of course, incomprehensible questions will also drive users elsewhere,
>> so we need to make sure that people understand that they almost
>> certainly don't care, unless they already know that they do care.
>
> This e-mail is about "worry about a proxy
>when there is need to worry about a proxy"
>
>> I could imagine using auto-detection to populate default values for a
>> site's proxy, assuming that the software to achieve that has a decent
>> chance of success, and isn't too big.
>> 
>> Alternatively, one could make sure that the subsequent package download
>> progress page made it clear that it would be safe to cancel that, and
>> that doing so would let one back up and specify a proxy to go via and
>> then retry the install -- that would let the person looking at a
>> download that's going depressingly slowly plenty of time to remember
>> that they have a faster alternative, and the reassurance that they can
>> switch to it without having to start the install from scratch (assuming
>> we can get the code to work that way).
>
> Currently we have these steps
>
> * hardware detect
> * network configuration with DHCP and manual config upon fail
> * allways ask for proxy
> * do the download
>
> What I would like to see, are these steps
>
> * hardware detect
> * network configuration with DHCP and manual configuration upon failure
> * inform user there is test download going on, allow "quick fail" (don't wait 
> for time out)
> ** upon fail: ask for a proxy configuration 
> ** upon succes: fine, just continue
> * do the download

Which in the case I described, would result in a probe that would
succeed followed by a download that was going to take several days.

I'm not trying to claim that it's a common case, but I've also certainly
done many slow installs by over-enthusiastically hitting return and then
remembering that there is a caching server locally that I should have
specified.

Actually, I was assuming that the scenario you describe would provoke
the same behaviour as the user interrupting the slow download, so I
agree that a failed download should also allow one to specify a proxy.

I am sceptical that a reliable test can be constructed that isn't going
to be just doing the download, so if we're going to change things it
should be to deal with all errors that might point at the need for a
proxy, including being aborted by a user during the download.

Cheers, Phil.
-- 
|)|  Philip Hands  [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]  HANDS.COM Ltd.
|-|  http://www.hands.com/http://ftp.uk.debian.org/
|(|  Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34,   21075 Hamburg,GERMANY


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Bug#261415: network installation always asks for proxy

2017-01-23 Thread Geert Stappers 
On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 11:30:31AM +0100, Geert Stappers wrote:
> 
> This e-mail is about "worry about a proxy
>when there is need to worry about a proxy"
> 
> 
> Currently we have these steps
> 
> * hardware detect
> * network configuration with DHCP and manual config upon fail
> * allways ask for proxy
> * do the download
> 
> What I would like to see, are these steps
> 
> * hardware detect
> * network configuration with DHCP and manual configuration upon failure
> * inform user there is test download going on, allow "quick fail" (don't wait 
> for time out)
> ** upon fail: ask for a proxy configuration 
> ** upon succes: fine, just continue
> * do the download
> 

Use case "home"
---

The SOHO router does DHCP, there is no web proxy,
so not need to bother the user about web proxy settings.


Use case "wpad"
---

The network has "web proxy auto detection" provisioning.
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Proxy_Autodiscovery_Protocol )
The debian-installer downloader honours those settings,
no need to prompt the proxy settings screen.


Use case "there is special web proxy for Debian installs"
-

The "quick fail" allows the user to go fast to
the screen whichs asks for the web proxy settings.


Use case "a web proxy is indeed needed"
---

Inform user that download might possible
after providing settings for a webproxy.


Groeten
Geert Stappers
-- 
Leven en laten leven

Bug#261415: network installation always asks for proxy

2017-01-23 Thread Geert Stappers 
> 
> Of course, incomprehensible questions will also drive users elsewhere,
> so we need to make sure that people understand that they almost
> certainly don't care, unless they already know that they do care.

This e-mail is about "worry about a proxy
   when there is need to worry about a proxy"

> I could imagine using auto-detection to populate default values for a
> site's proxy, assuming that the software to achieve that has a decent
> chance of success, and isn't too big.
> 
> Alternatively, one could make sure that the subsequent package download
> progress page made it clear that it would be safe to cancel that, and
> that doing so would let one back up and specify a proxy to go via and
> then retry the install -- that would let the person looking at a
> download that's going depressingly slowly plenty of time to remember
> that they have a faster alternative, and the reassurance that they can
> switch to it without having to start the install from scratch (assuming
> we can get the code to work that way).

Currently we have these steps

* hardware detect
* network configuration with DHCP and manual config upon fail
* allways ask for proxy
* do the download

What I would like to see, are these steps

* hardware detect
* network configuration with DHCP and manual configuration upon failure
* inform user there is test download going on, allow "quick fail" (don't wait 
for time out)
** upon fail: ask for a proxy configuration 
** upon succes: fine, just continue
* do the download



Groeten
Geert Stappers
-- 
Leven en laten leven

Bug#261415: network installation always asks for proxy

2017-01-23 Thread Philip Hands 
Josh Triplett  writes:

> On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 23:49:59 +0100 Cyril Brulebois  wrote:
>> Martin Pitt  (2004-03-24):
>> > - network installation always asks for proxy; I know what a proxy is,
>> >   but not all potential users may; would it be possible to try without
>> >   proxy first and ask for proxy settings only if direct connection
>> >   does not work?  Never mind if that is not possible, just asking :-)
>> 
>> Some translations have a less-techy way of explaining what a proxy is,
>> and a default empty value should just be OK (people are expected to
>> install Debian by pressing Enter most of the time, right? :)). I'm not
>> sure we want to play with trial-and-error in d-i too much…
>> 
>> Tagging wontfix for now to allow for somebody to step up and say
>> otherwise.
>
> I do think we ought to attempt autodetection for this.  As long as a
> means exists for preseeders and expert installs to specify one anyway
> (for optional caching proxies), autodetecting by default seems like a
> good idea, to eliminate one of the more highly technical questions in
> the install.

I've certainly been behind site-wide filtering that plays badly with
package downloads, where someone in the IT department has routed round
that by setting up a secret ADSL line that can be used if one specifies
a proxy using IP:port that's scribbled on the office whiteboard.

I suspect that pretty-much any test you can think of will result in you
going via the filter, and thus getting really dire download rates (In
the case I'm thinking of ~20kbits/s on a 10Gbit/s line, out-of-hours --
the filter was also not caching its own results, so it didn't even speed
up for subsequent downloads)

Making it difficult to perform a test install on such a site will drive
new users elsewhere.

Of course, incomprehensible questions will also drive users elsewhere,
so we need to make sure that people understand that they almost
certainly don't care, unless they already know that they do care.

I could imagine using auto-detection to populate default values for a
site's proxy, assuming that the software to achieve that has a decent
chance of success, and isn't too big.

Alternatively, one could make sure that the subsequent package download
progress page made it clear that it would be safe to cancel that, and
that doing so would let one back up and specify a proxy to go via and
then retry the install -- that would let the person looking at a
download that's going depressingly slowly plenty of time to remember
that they have a faster alternative, and the reassurance that they can
switch to it without having to start the install from scratch (assuming
we can get the code to work that way).

Cheers, Phil.
-- 
|)|  Philip Hands  [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]  HANDS.COM Ltd.
|-|  http://www.hands.com/http://ftp.uk.debian.org/
|(|  Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34,   21075 Hamburg,GERMANY


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Bug#261415: network installation always asks for proxy

2017-01-21 Thread Josh Triplett 
On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 23:49:59 +0100 Cyril Brulebois  wrote:
> Martin Pitt  (2004-03-24):
> > - network installation always asks for proxy; I know what a proxy is,
> >   but not all potential users may; would it be possible to try without
> >   proxy first and ask for proxy settings only if direct connection
> >   does not work?  Never mind if that is not possible, just asking :-)
> 
> Some translations have a less-techy way of explaining what a proxy is,
> and a default empty value should just be OK (people are expected to
> install Debian by pressing Enter most of the time, right? :)). I'm not
> sure we want to play with trial-and-error in d-i too much…
> 
> Tagging wontfix for now to allow for somebody to step up and say
> otherwise.

I do think we ought to attempt autodetection for this.  As long as a
means exists for preseeders and expert installs to specify one anyway
(for optional caching proxies), autodetecting by default seems like a
good idea, to eliminate one of the more highly technical questions in
the install.

Processed: Bug#261415: network installation always asks for proxy

2014-02-28 Thread Debian Bug Tracking System 
Processing control commands:

 tag -1 wontfix
Bug #261415 [choose-mirror] network installation always asks for proxy
Added tag(s) wontfix.

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261415: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=261415
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Bug#261415: network installation always asks for proxy

2014-02-28 Thread Cyril Brulebois 
Control: tag -1 wontfix

[ Edited Subject to match the cloned-to bug's status. ]

Martin Pitt mar...@piware.de (2004-03-24):
 - network installation always asks for proxy; I know what a proxy is,
   but not all potential users may; would it be possible to try without
   proxy first and ask for proxy settings only if direct connection
   does not work?  Never mind if that is not possible, just asking :-)

Some translations have a less-techy way of explaining what a proxy is,
and a default empty value should just be OK (people are expected to
install Debian by pressing Enter most of the time, right? :)). I'm not
sure we want to play with trial-and-error in d-i too much…

Tagging wontfix for now to allow for somebody to step up and say
otherwise.

Mraw,
KiBi.


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