Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
+++ Kees de Jong [2014-08-12 02:03 +0200]: Are we really comparing RAM here as if it were the 90's? How many people here use Android? Today it needs 512 MB to function properly. In two years that could be 1 or 2 GB and that's a mobile OS. How much RAM does your browser use? Too much! I agree browsers use more ram than desktops these days, or at least the big ones (firefox, chrome) do. My Chrome/Firefox easily uses 1 GB. My GNOME 3.10 desktop (running Fedora now because I needed a modern GNOME version for Exchange support for work) is using about 800 MB to 1200 MB. Do I really care? No, because RAM is cheap and I have 8 GB. Do I need to buy more? No, because 8 GB is still more than enough. That's fine so long as your hardware is new enough to take more memory. Anyone with an ARM machine will be in the 512MB/1G/2G camp. My laptop (x200s) officially maxes out at 4G, although it turns out that 8G does actually work in practice. Memory usage does still matter as your hardware doesn't have to be particularly old to have RAM of a size that is likely to all get used, and on arm (increasingly being used for netbook/laptop/desktop usage) it's practically guaranteed. So yes, it's not the 1990s but I think we should aim to make Debian to work tolerably well on 2 or 4G systems. Alistair posted numbers suggesting 600MB for gnome3 or KDE, 360 for XFCE, 300 for LXDE, which is a difference, but not a huge one. Very significant on a 512MB machine, but not that significant on 2G. You say 800-1200 above which is twice as much. Is this the differnce between initial boot up and usage after some time, or 'various add-ons'? Knowing what 'typical' numbers are would be useful. I have various well-used XFCE desktops I could check but I'm not sure how to get a cmparable RAM-usage number of them. If you can't run GNOME because you don't have the system specs to run a modern desktop then you can select XFCE/LXDE in the installation menu. But let's be fair, those people are a minority. And a default should fit the needs of the majority. And since people easily have 4 GB of RAM or more these days with the basic 3D acceleration I only had 2G RAM till last year (when I had to buy some more because browsers take so much damn RAM). I think we should at least consider those people in the 'typical machines' bucket. (even a Raspberry Pi can run GNOME 3) A Pi is only 512MB, so 'barely'. Like most arm hardware memory levels are still low by modern x86 standards. They are like late 90s/early 2000s x86 machines in this regard. I don't want to over-emphasise the arm thing - it is still a minority sport - but it's a growing area of usage where memory is still limited. I just wanted to counter a little the 'everyone has buckets of RAM these days' view, whilst acnowledging that it is no longer the 90's and a 512Mb machine will struggle with any modern desktop+browser (which is sad IMHO - dawkins knows what software, especially browsers, do with all that memory! - hundreds of Mb for simple tables of built packages, for example, but I digress :-) Wookey -- Principal hats: Linaro, Emdebian, Wookware, Balloonboard, ARM http://wookware.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140812085008.gl7...@stoneboat.aleph1.co.uk
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
+++ Anthony F McInerney [2014-08-12 00:02 +0100]: XFCE: total used free sharedbuffers cached Mem:506756 362468 144288 6568 22756 179264 -/+ buffers/cache: 160448 346308 Swap: 392188 0 392188 GNOME: total used free sharedbuffers cached Mem:506756 500360 6396 1948840 37724 -/+ buffers/cache: 461796 44960 Swap: 392188 66672 325516 LXDE: total used free sharedbuffers cached Mem:506756 316504 190252 8500 18920 149812 -/+ buffers/cache: 147772 358984 Swap: 392188 0 392188 KDE: total used free sharedbuffers cached Mem:506756 499724 7032 6772 10516 109760 -/+ buffers/cache: 379448 127308 Swap: 392188 21632 370556 Thanks for this, interesting. Could you do MATE too please? Wookey -- Principal hats: Linaro, Emdebian, Wookware, Balloonboard, ARM http://wookware.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140812085136.gm7...@stoneboat.aleph1.co.uk
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
Le mardi 12 août 2014 à 03:03 +0100, Anthony F McInerney a écrit : I had stated previously XFCE had started showing memory usage similar to gnome. This has quite obviously changed. I was wrong, and i'm posting it as a correction to my statement. You’re comparing apples and oranges. These memory usage comparisons are only useful at feature parity - which doesn’t exist, since different environments have different paradigms and different feature sets. How much RAM does your browser use? Lots, which is why i prefer my DE not to eat it all. When the browser uses 1 GB while GNOME (including evolution and many other running applications) uses half of that, I don’t think you need to look for memory savings in the desktop. You need to buy more RAM and that’s all, because browsers won’t suddenly stop needing their gigabyte. If you can't run GNOME because you don't have the system specs to run a modern desktop then you can select XFCE/LXDE in the installation menu. But let's be fair, those people are a minority. And a default should fit the needs of the majority. Ahh good you have statistics for that. Please link them, or quote and cite sources. I just had a look at an online hardware store. Out of their 682 laptops and 332 desktops: * 1 model has 1 GiB * 48 models have 2 GiB * 470 models have 4 GiB * 495 have 6 GiB or more Which means 0,1% of the machines you can buy are not able to run a web browser anyway, 5% are more than enough for a full-fledged GNOME+web browser, and all the rest are very comfortable with anything you can run under Linux. Some people like the 'basic 3d acceleration' for other things, so not only do you want me to sacrifice my RAM to all powerful DE, but also my GPU? How kind of you ;) We happen at work to have users with very important needs of 3D resources, so one of my colleagues conducted some performance tests with and without a compositor (the compositor being GNOME 3). It turns out that with a recent adapter, 3D applications are running a small bit faster under GNOME, and that’s probably because it saves your graphics card the pain to switch from 2D to 3D contexts. -- .''`.Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1407838921.26277.435.camel@dsp0698014
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
On 12 August 2014 09:51, Wookey woo...@wookware.org wrote: Could you do MATE too please? MATE: (with mate-desktop-environment-extras) free ^[[C total used free shared buffers cached Mem: 506756 397480 109276 7096 58820 166076 -/+ buffers/cache: 172584 334172 Swap: 392188 0 392188 The ctrl characters came with it apparently. And as an extra, Gnome Classical: free total used free shared buffers cached Mem: 506756 498240 8516 2452 5972 71360 -/+ buffers/cache: 420908 85848 Swap: 392188 16292 375896
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
We happen at work to have users with very important needs of 3D resources, so one of my colleagues conducted some performance tests with and without a compositor (the compositor being GNOME 3). It turns out that with a recent adapter, 3D applications are running a small bit faster under GNOME, and that’s probably because it saves your graphics card the pain to switch from 2D to 3D contexts. Virtualbox Results (no guest drivers installed) Gnome: glxgears 1267 frames in 5.0 seconds = 253.150 FPS 1197 frames in 5.0 seconds = 239.372 FPS 1174 frames in 5.0 seconds = 234.753 FPS 1142 frames in 5.0 seconds = 228.005 FPS 1201 frames in 5.0 seconds = 239.898 FPS 1217 frames in 5.0 seconds = 243.075 FPS 1194 frames in 5.0 seconds = 238.475 FPS Gnome-Classic: glxgears 1150 frames in 5.0 seconds = 229.772 FPS 1267 frames in 5.0 seconds = 253.212 FPS 1240 frames in 5.0 seconds = 247.875 FPS 1272 frames in 5.0 seconds = 254.374 FPS 1314 frames in 5.0 seconds = 262.673 FPS 1279 frames in 5.0 seconds = 255.684 FPS XFCE: glxgears 2110 frames in 5.0 seconds = 421.982 FPS 2290 frames in 5.0 seconds = 457.800 FPS 2241 frames in 5.0 seconds = 448.046 FPS 2279 frames in 5.0 seconds = 455.636 FPS 2191 frames in 5.0 seconds = 438.094 FPS 2246 frames in 5.0 seconds = 449.114 FPS 2218 frames in 5.0 seconds = 443.590 FPS Please note xfce was installed on the same vm, that gnome / gnome-classic was on. It was therefore using much more memory, (it seems GDM + other gnome services are causing memory use, i will be testing that shortly). And here i will make a comparison. ahahahaha. That was it. Moving on. ;)
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
Le mardi 12 août 2014 à 13:12 +0100, Anthony F McInerney a écrit : Virtualbox Results (no guest drivers installed) Glxgears is not a relevant 3D benchmark. But the funniest thing is that you did this test without any 3D acceleration, which is not representative at all of most real-world computers. Thanks for making the point that with llvmpipe, GNOME is perfectly usable on a machine without 3D. -- .''`.Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1407846059.26277.455.camel@dsp0698014
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
I enjoy the way you keep ignoring the relevant points, memory usage and performance regressions. And the way you benchmarked gnome against gnome. How about warsaw on xfce on the same hardware or your benchmarks pretty much show nothing except that your 'slight performance increase when using gnome-shell' is pure fabrication. On 12 August 2014 13:20, Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org wrote: Le mardi 12 août 2014 à 13:12 +0100, Anthony F McInerney a écrit : Virtualbox Results (no guest drivers installed) Glxgears is not a relevant 3D benchmark. But the funniest thing is that you did this test without any 3D acceleration, which is not representative at all of most real-world computers. Thanks for making the point that with llvmpipe, GNOME is perfectly usable on a machine without 3D. -- .''`.Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `-
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 12:22:01PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: I just had a look at an online hardware store. Out of their 682 laptops and 332 desktops: * 1 model has 1 GiB * 48 models have 2 GiB * 470 models have 4 GiB * 495 have 6 GiB or more Which means 0,1% of the machines you can buy are not able to run a web browser anyway, 5% are more than enough for a full-fledged GNOME+web browser, and all the rest are very comfortable with anything you can run under Linux. I must be in the 0.1% then. I have a 1GB machine. I have no trouble running Chrome or Chromium. Or even both of those at the same time. But then, I'm using XFCE instead of Gnome. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140812133809.ga22...@topoi.pooq.com
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 03:20:49AM +0100, Anthony F McInerney wrote: Would the people who are claiming that blank cdr are cheaper than dvdr, especially in third world countries, please cite sources (shops, price checkers etc) of the price of say 5 pack or 10 pack, even up to 50pack of CD's, vs the same amount of DVD's, from those third world countries. Is the price of a small pack of DVD's really worth making the decision on a DE for debian? Not sure why you'd want to go for third world countries, but let's look at Germany (Aldi is one of the two biggest discounters here): http://www.presseportal.de/pm/112096/2653870/aldi-senkt-preise-fuer-fischprodukte-oel-und-smoothies CD-R Rohlinge (80 Minuten, je 50er Spindel) 5,99 Euro DVD+R Rohlinge (je 20er Spindel)3,99 Euro That is 0.12 EUR per CDR and 0.20 EUR per DVD. DVD readers/writers are cheaper now than CD readers/writers ever were. I don't think it makes sense to ask for the price of one media (which is in Cents), but then assume that the extra cost for a new DVD reader is negligible. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140811091514.GA5055@t61
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
On Mon, 11 Aug, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Thomas Weber twe...@debian.org wrote: Not sure why you'd want to go for third world countries, but let's look at Germany (Aldi is one of the two biggest discounters here): http://www.presseportal.de/pm/112096/2653870/aldi-senkt-preise-fuer-fischprodukte-oel-und-smoothies CD-R Rohlinge (80 Minuten, je 50er Spindel) 5,99 Euro DVD+R Rohlinge (je 20er Spindel)3,99 Euro That is 0.12 EUR per CDR and 0.20 EUR per DVD. As you have shown here, it would cost an extra €0.08 to have it on DVD instead of CD. Also I’ll note for you, that's 86GB for €3.99 or 40GB for €5.99 The cost of a DVD is not some far reaching astronomical price increase, in fact per GB it's cheaper. Here in the UK I can walk into a poundstore and pick up 4 dvds for a £1. I'm quite sure you can do the same in any $1 dollar, 99cent store. The cd's in that store come in a 5pack for £1. DVD readers/writers are cheaper now than CD readers/writers ever were. I don't think it makes sense to ask for the price of one media (which is in Cents), but then assume that the extra cost for a new DVD reader is negligible. Price is not a valid concern for DVD, in terms of media or drives. Either the CD drive is too old to function or the machine is. (in terms of jessie anyway), you can barely buy second hand CD drives, but DVD drives are a plenty, sure you can buy them NEW for little more than a pack of 50 CD's. And if it's machines in the wild with CD drives still again, we have woody, squeeze and wheezy for them. I ran woody on my cheap laptop in 2002. it had a DVD drive. Can we now move on to choosing a DE? Thanks Anthony.
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
at bottom :- On 8/11/14, Thomas Weber twe...@debian.org wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 03:20:49AM +0100, Anthony F McInerney wrote: Would the people who are claiming that blank cdr are cheaper than dvdr, especially in third world countries, please cite sources (shops, price checkers etc) of the price of say 5 pack or 10 pack, even up to 50pack of CD's, vs the same amount of DVD's, from those third world countries. Is the price of a small pack of DVD's really worth making the decision on a DE for debian? Not sure why you'd want to go for third world countries, but let's look at Germany (Aldi is one of the two biggest discounters here): http://www.presseportal.de/pm/112096/2653870/aldi-senkt-preise-fuer-fischprodukte-oel-und-smoothies CD-R Rohlinge (80 Minuten, je 50er Spindel) 5,99 Euro DVD+R Rohlinge (je 20er Spindel)3,99 Euro That is 0.12 EUR per CDR and 0.20 EUR per DVD. DVD readers/writers are cheaper now than CD readers/writers ever were. I don't think it makes sense to ask for the price of one media (which is in Cents), but then assume that the extra cost for a new DVD reader is negligible. Thomas Hi all, As an interested user I come from India and at least here there isn't a difference at all in terms of a CD or DVD media. A single of both costs Rs. 20/- (with the plastic case and all) and going to some of the wholesalers we can get it for Rs. 7/- or Rs. 8/- (in a spindle or a box) . The price might differ between the two by a Rupee or two (it's been quite some time since I went to buy blank DVD's) but the space equation is such that I never buy a CD. I do remember a distinct conversation where I asked him if he ever got orders for CD with the vendor replying that mostly he gets order CD's from villages rather than from city/town itself. Still the ratio was 80 20 in favor of DVD's. I know it's not at all scientific and is probably a strawman argument but that's the way I see it here. Almost nobody I know within my circle talks about CD and I do not just work with the elite in the city. -- Regards, Shirish Agarwal शिरीष अग्रवाल My quotes in this email licensed under CC 3.0 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/ http://flossexperiences.wordpress.com EB80 462B 08E1 A0DE A73A 2C2F 9F3D C7A4 E1C4 D2D8 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/cadddzrny5y33zbc+majhavcdckup9jrdmwadvaaufg7d-zd...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 11:15:15AM +0200, Thomas Weber wrote: Not sure why you'd want to go for third world countries, but let's look at Germany (Aldi is one of the two biggest discounters here): http://www.presseportal.de/pm/112096/2653870/aldi-senkt-preise-fuer-fischprodukte-oel-und-smoothies CD-R Rohlinge (80 Minuten, je 50er Spindel) 5,99 Euro DVD+R Rohlinge (je 20er Spindel)3,99 Euro That is 0.12 EUR per CDR and 0.20 EUR per DVD. My local computer store has $8.99 for 50 DVD-R and $16.99 for 50 CD-R. Of course they also have 100 CD-R for $18.88 and 100 DVD-R for $24.88, so who knows. Seems the price is pretty similar depending what you buy and how many. Of course as for gnome as a default, unless it can have sane defaults where it behaves as the vast majority of computer users are used to a desktop working, then I don't think it is a usable desktop. That means it needs buttons on windows that people expect to see where they expect to see them, and things behaving as they expect them to behave. Would Debian be willing to make gnome3 have different defaults than upstream in the interest of actually being useable to new users who are used to other operating systems and desktops? -- Len Sorensen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140811144154.gu17...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
Hi, Lennart Sorensen: it needs buttons on windows that people expect to see where they expect to see them You mean left vs. right side? Would Debian be willing to make gnome3 have different defaults than upstream in the interest of actually being useable to new users who are used to other operating systems and desktops? People who are so afraid of new stuff to learn that they won't even figure out how to close a window are not Gnome's (or XFCE's, for that matter) target audience. If you want that, install KDE and tell it to use one of the let's-mimic-Windows/MacOS themes. -- -- Matthias Urlichs -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140811153404.gk15...@smurf.noris.de
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 10:23:38AM +0001, Anthony F McInerney wrote: And if it's machines in the wild with CD drives still again, we have woody, squeeze and wheezy for them. Does woody still have security support? In not, there are many old machines for which it is no longer an alternative. Whatever the chosen DE is, though, the installer should cater to installation on machines with scare resources, and the ways to get it to do so should be evident to the user. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140811170828.ga5...@topoi.pooq.com
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
On Mon, 2014-08-11 at 03:20 +0100, Anthony F McInerney wrote: [...] If people have old CD only machines i would not like to attempt to get kernel 3.16 +drivers +userland working on that. I've been in that situation plenty of times, where woody or potato are better simply because the drivers had been deprecated. Lets not go into the 256/512MB of ram that the CD only computer has and how much gnome or xfce is going to chew up and bring the machine to a crawl as soon you try to do anything and it hits swap. [...] I have a wheezy VM running Xfce comfortably in 256 MB (only a third of which is used at this moment, excluding caches and buffers). I doubt that jessie is going to require vastly more memory. So I think that Xfce and CD media are still going to be useful for people who are stuck with older hardware. If we agree that it's important to support installation from a single CD (rather than 2+ CDs or downloads) then Xfce would probably be the right default DE for that single CD. I do not support making it the default in general, though. Ben. -- Ben Hutchings Humans are not rational beings; they are rationalising beings. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 05:34:04PM +0200, Matthias Urlichs wrote: You mean left vs. right side? Or even showing them at all (certainly last time I bothered to look at gnome 3 it seemed to think buttons on windows were mostly to be avoided). People who are so afraid of new stuff to learn that they won't even figure out how to close a window are not Gnome's (or XFCE's, for that matter) target audience. If you want that, install KDE and tell it to use one of the let's-mimic-Windows/MacOS themes. xfce is perfectly useable to most people by default. All I personally expect from a window manager is: Be able to launch programs (ideally using alt+F2) Be able to resize the window using the edge of the window Have a maximize/restore button Have a minimize button Have a close button (These last 3 should also show up when I hit alt+space, because well I have used that keystroke on many systems for over 20 years to do that). That's it. I don't need any more than that. Gnome 3 failed that out of the box. It seems Microsoft is willing to accept they fucked up on windwos 8 and are backing down and restoring what people really want in the next version. I wonder if the gnome UI designers will ever be willing to admit they screwed up and back down. Adding new idea is fine, but not at the expense of existing features and behaviour. You have to let people continue to use things until they get used to the new things if they ever do. You can't just force people to switch the way they work. -- Len Sorensen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140811173528.gw17...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 01:35:28PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: All I personally expect from a window manager is: Be able to launch programs (ideally using alt+F2) Available in GNOME 3. Be able to resize the window using the edge of the window Available in GNOME 3. Have a maximize/restore button Not enabled by default (if I remember correctly), but possible to enable using gnome-tweak-tool. Have a minimize button Not enabled by default (if I remember correctly), but possible to enable using gnome-tweak-tool. Have a close button Available in GNOME 3. (These last 3 should also show up when I hit alt+space, because well I have used that keystroke on many systems for over 20 years to do that). Alt+space brings up the window menu in GNOME 3. So, sounds like GNOME 3 provides/can provide everything you seem to expect from a window manager. Kind regards, David -- /) David Weinehall t...@debian.org /) Rime on my window (\ // ~ // Diamond-white roses of fire // \) http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/(/ Beautiful hoar-frost (/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140811174240.ge2...@hirohito.acc.umu.se
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 01:35:28PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 05:34:04PM +0200, Matthias Urlichs wrote: Or even showing them at all (certainly last time I bothered to look at gnome 3 it seemed to think buttons on windows were mostly to be avoided). People who are so afraid of new stuff to learn that they won't even figure out how to close a window are not Gnome's (or XFCE's, for that matter) target audience. They may well not be Gnome's target audience. We should not inflict Gnome on them. If you want that, install KDE and tell it to use one of the let's-mimic-Windows/MacOS themes. xfce is perfectly useable to most people by default. All I personally expect from a window manager is: Be able to launch programs (ideally using alt+F2) Be able to resize the window using the edge of the window Have a maximize/restore button Have a minimize button Have a close button (These last 3 should also show up when I hit alt+space, because well I have used that keystroke on many systems for over 20 years to do that). That's it. I don't need any more than that. Gnome 3 failed that out of the box. It looks as if Lennart Sorensen is not in Gnome's target audience. But I'd say he is definitely in Debian's target audience. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140811174220.gb5...@topoi.pooq.com
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 07:42:41PM +0200, David Weinehall wrote: Available in GNOME 3. Available in GNOME 3. Not enabled by default (if I remember correctly), but possible to enable using gnome-tweak-tool. I shouldn't have to know that. And I am pretty sure when gnome3 appeared in sid, it wasn't available. Not enabled by default (if I remember correctly), but possible to enable using gnome-tweak-tool. I will somewhat agree that one is hardly ever used since I just alt+tab to the other window I want. Available in GNOME 3. Alt+space brings up the window menu in GNOME 3. So, sounds like GNOME 3 provides/can provide everything you seem to expect from a window manager. Trying to navigate the horrible menu system trying to find where to configure things was highly unpleasant too. It made windows 8 seem sane. I just believe the default when you install and log in the first time shoudl be something that makes sense to your typical average user, and I don't think gnome3 by default does that. It can be tweaked to do so now (I don't think it could initially), but the typical user won't know how to do that. The defaults are bad. -- Len Sorensen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140811174753.gx17...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
How do you measure memory? Free? Could you quite possibly post the output of free and whatever else you measure with? (the full output) For reference against jessie, i'm installing an up to date jessie right now... Thanks Anthony (bofh80)
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 01:47:53PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 07:42:41PM +0200, David Weinehall wrote: Available in GNOME 3. Available in GNOME 3. Not enabled by default (if I remember correctly), but possible to enable using gnome-tweak-tool. I shouldn't have to know that. And I am pretty sure when gnome3 appeared in sid, it wasn't available. Not enabled by default (if I remember correctly), but possible to enable using gnome-tweak-tool. I will somewhat agree that one is hardly ever used since I just alt+tab to the other window I want. Available in GNOME 3. Alt+space brings up the window menu in GNOME 3. So, sounds like GNOME 3 provides/can provide everything you seem to expect from a window manager. Trying to navigate the horrible menu system trying to find where to configure things was highly unpleasant too. It made windows 8 seem sane. I just believe the default when you install and log in the first time shoudl be something that makes sense to your typical average user, and I don't think gnome3 by default does that. It can be tweaked to do so now (I don't think it could initially), but the typical user won't know how to do that. The defaults are bad. Well, if there's a consensus that the minimise/maximise buttons are needed (I always enable them, so I'd vote yes!), then I'm sure that the Debian GNOME team will be happy to enable those options by default. Regards: David -- /) David Weinehall t...@debian.org /) Rime on my window (\ // ~ // Diamond-white roses of fire // \) http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/(/ Beautiful hoar-frost (/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140811200924.gf2...@hirohito.acc.umu.se
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
XFCE: total used free sharedbuffers cached Mem:506756 362468 144288 6568 22756 179264 -/+ buffers/cache: 160448 346308 Swap: 392188 0 392188 GNOME: total used free sharedbuffers cached Mem:506756 500360 6396 1948840 37724 -/+ buffers/cache: 461796 44960 Swap: 392188 66672 325516 LXDE: total used free sharedbuffers cached Mem:506756 316504 190252 8500 18920 149812 -/+ buffers/cache: 147772 358984 Swap: 392188 0 392188 KDE: total used free sharedbuffers cached Mem:506756 499724 7032 6772 10516 109760 -/+ buffers/cache: 379448 127308 Swap: 392188 21632 370556 As default using the latest mini.iso with mirror/udeb/suite=sid and using the 'alternate desktop menu' booted, logged in, loaded a terminal, here you go. notice the swap usage. virtualbox vm 512MB
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
Are we really comparing RAM here as if it were the 90's? How many people here use Android? Today it needs 512 MB to function properly. In two years that could be 1 or 2 GB and that's a mobile OS. How much RAM does your browser use? My Chrome/Firefox easily uses 1 GB. My GNOME 3.10 desktop (running Fedora now because I needed a modern GNOME version for Exchange support for work) is using about 800 MB to 1200 MB. Do I really care? No, because RAM is cheap and I have 8 GB. Do I need to buy more? No, because 8 GB is still more than enough. If you can't run GNOME because you don't have the system specs to run a modern desktop then you can select XFCE/LXDE in the installation menu. But let's be fair, those people are a minority. And a default should fit the needs of the majority. And since people easily have 4 GB of RAM or more these days with the basic 3D acceleration (even a Raspberry Pi can run GNOME 3) then I would say that logic chooses GNOME. Also because of a ton of other reasons already mentioned e.g. systemd, documentation, dedicated maintainers, accessibility, etc.
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
On 12 August 2014 01:03, Kees de Jong keesdej...@gmail.com wrote: Are we really comparing RAM here as if it were the 90's? I had stated previously XFCE had started showing memory usage similar to gnome. This has quite obviously changed. I was wrong, and i'm posting it as a correction to my statement. I also just test installed all 4 DE's and am happy to run any further tests required to reach a consensus. How many people here use Android? Today it needs 512 MB to function properly. Linux+Java. Needs memory, surprise? In two years that could be 1 or 2 GB and that's a mobile OS. It's Linux. It has a web browser. A modem. A wireless connection. Bluetooth. GPS. Music Player, Photo viewer, wait this is sounding familiar. How much RAM does your browser use? Lots, which is why i prefer my DE not to eat it all. My Chrome/Firefox easily uses 1 GB My GNOME 3.10 desktop (running Fedora now because I needed a modern GNOME version for Exchange support for work) is using about 800 MB to 1200 MB. Ouch Do I really care? No, because RAM is cheap and I have 8 GB. Do I need to buy more? No, because 8 GB is still more than enough. free totalused free sharedbuffers cached Mem:12332856 12164516168340 129196 1002483989512 -/+ buffers/cache:8074756 4258100 Swap:3211260 129088 3082172 Maybe for you. (and my DE uses less than lxde and xfce, but with more options and jazz+bugs). But that's me, i might be able to fit my own memory, most people will not, they have to pay for that, and most would have to remove memory to fit more memory, hence making the cost more than you imagined. If you can't run GNOME because you don't have the system specs to run a modern desktop then you can select XFCE/LXDE in the installation menu. But let's be fair, those people are a minority. And a default should fit the needs of the majority. Ahh good you have statistics for that. Please link them, or quote and cite sources. And since people easily have 4 GB of RAM or more these days with the basic 3D acceleration (even a Raspberry Pi can run GNOME 3) then I would say that logic chooses GNOME. Some people like the 'basic 3d acceleration' for other things, so not only do you want me to sacrifice my RAM to all powerful DE, but also my GPU? How kind of you ;) . Also as the memory usage shows, a pi won't be doing much more than starting gnome and going, oh look it's gnome. Also because of a ton of other reasons already mentioned e.g. systemd, documentation, dedicated maintainers, accessibility, etc. OK that's a gnome+1 then. :) TBH i'd rather hear what you like about gnome3, the workflow or anything else that makes it 'stand out' from other DE's, or rather, worth a large percentage of ram, especially if can surpass 1GB. Thanks for the info.
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 02:03:39AM +0200, Kees de Jong wrote: Are we really comparing RAM here as if it were the 90's? How many people here use Android? Today it needs 512 MB to function properly. In two years that could be 1 or 2 GB and that's a mobile OS. How much RAM does your browser use? My Chrome/Firefox easily uses 1 GB. My GNOME 3.10 desktop (running Fedora now because I needed a modern GNOME version for Exchange support for work) is using about 800 MB to 1200 MB. Do I really care? No, because RAM is cheap and I have 8 GB. Do I need to buy more? No, because 8 GB is still more than enough. My everyday system has 1 GiB. Can't even put more than 2 on it if I were to try. I use XFCE. The question about the default isn't whether *my* system can run it. It's whether the novice will get an installed system he cannot use. At the very least the installer should tell him to select something small (and tell him what it is) on a small machine, instead of blindly installing Gnome. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140812021205.gc12...@topoi.pooq.com
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
Why are we discussing CD/DVD sizes? Why not just use an USB netinstall? It's then possible to download and install the stuff you need, if you don't want to use a lot of bandwidth then choose no desktop environment or XFCE/LXDE. But if you can spare some more time then you can install GNOME/KDE. Seems like a good deal. And USB sticks are cheaper (also easier to reuse) so I don't get the 'hurting developing countries' argument. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAAH150ZMiVBtY21Es06y3djZrQ+=eAEYDenLJJoYby=ajos...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
2014/08/08 18:14 Yves-Alexis Perez cor...@debian.org: [...] Put it another way, Xfce (and other DEs) have been hurt by the various enforced transitions (ConsoleKit, hal/devicekit-power/upower/upower-0.99), yes. Combined with the lack of resources, that means it lays behind the people who decided those transitions. Regards, -- Yves-Alexis As a user trying to find to participate more, can I put a huge +1 on that? (Lots of things I'd like to help with on XFCE, among other things, but the recent transitions have been eating what time I might have had, plus a bit of work time I can't afford.) -- Joel Rees Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens. All is a stream of text flowing from the past into the future.
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 08/10/2014 02:39 PM, Kees de Jong wrote: Why are we discussing CD/DVD sizes? Why not just use an USB netinstall? It's then possible to download and install the stuff you need, if you don't want to use a lot of bandwidth then choose no desktop environment or XFCE/LXDE. But if you can spare some more time then you can install GNOME/KDE. Seems like a good deal. And USB sticks are cheaper (also easier to reuse) so I don't get the 'hurting developing countries' argument. With netinst, you incur the bandwidth cost at install time, once for every install. With a larger install image which includes all the packages needed for a more comprehensive install (whether CD, DVD or otherwise), you incur the bandwidth cost up once front, and then never again (until it's time to update to a new install-image version anyway). If you're only going to do one install, then yes, the netinst image probably makes more sense for a bandwidth-limited environment. But if you're going to do multiple installs, using one of the larger and more comprehensive prebuilt install images almost certainly makes more sense than using netinst. - -- The Wanderer Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny. A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJT6AhUAAoJEASpNY00KDJrn7wQAKwL0NtO1eyDinasWL0UkOhG QVgLjlkWLrOdnQFYOl+YT9EsOT79Jmip8Ym2ySQid/DG6UpSDgP0eOf9owqZeZ8Y /ARaNdkP1e6//k49XvhQFetTDPOCBvNMucRvPljK3UJdj5E4yu+UhrffYez89Wfk lPauNO6mUUPpmkCuwsNeQ0Z5b6tPw1VaMovuBFP2fshBMXW/4aWyGUBibdzkqhYO Qwj6NKBj78liaSJAWFFxw92HSYbLzs6uGTlW7f9tPPw5Mv5BRdB0d6yN2cdCf391 RUzcFVgudnUzq8st9Kf0vrvbnnTtEoV1oIqDfAN4mzmF3Psh7b6lMjaH2h5F+n+V 1GNmjoco8gE0U1gZvb9KdcTFNzYv7jnISVx6vHK7mOY6UJts/GRpM8dW8Pps7WET 9aPDc6JwdI5+/IiBHn/5mf3moFFbLMZTI41aX9jSawoHNPC9hkcC3VeXYc+hxyZS ABWU2GswFTy+R8u9QO1AsqgVoV9K5RsyeQK9O+yKTVWgcy5bXOt4r5SbzVmJrDLN tAA3jIn9HBtLVp4I8KJWFg0c89uPENRqgQkIq7iAGIy6dsASGFctRAMUsxEilp2E 1iDqGpKRRIiDbzQonSJ7LwSV+TqDqHEnU9dUm7OB4yqcgVVd5+Dw8w59dJ0VIkJR 5Copesh0itb2ucAX9Kjd =/d+b -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53e80854.8030...@fastmail.fm
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
Would the people who are claiming that blank cdr are cheaper than dvdr, especially in third world countries, please cite sources (shops, price checkers etc) of the price of say 5 pack or 10 pack, even up to 50pack of CD's, vs the same amount of DVD's, from those third world countries. Is the price of a small pack of DVD's really worth making the decision on a DE for debian? If people have old CD only machines i would not like to attempt to get kernel 3.16 +drivers +userland working on that. I've been in that situation plenty of times, where woody or potato are better simply because the drivers had been deprecated. Lets not go into the 256/512MB of ram that the CD only computer has and how much gnome or xfce is going to chew up and bring the machine to a crawl as soon you try to do anything and it hits swap. DVD readers/writers are cheaper now than CD readers/writers ever were. The only argument you have left is bandwidth, and fortunately DVD's can be sent in the post. Also we are probably only talking about a 100MB or 200MB more. I'd rather a nice debian installer with everything included, rather than trying to 'cut stuff out' just so it 'fits'. There's simply no need for that. The real issue at hand should not be derailed by does it work with 1995 technology As for the topic, the assumption of let's switch back to gnome now, how quaint. Firstly, it should be Let's choose the default DE for Jessie. Secondly, why haven't the lxde and kde developers been included on the list for this discussion? Even with the init choice, the outsiders were given a chance to speak up (E17 anyone?) Thirdly, and more importantly the state of gnome itself in testing/jessie repositories, let alone sid, even with a larger team, the mismatched package versions, the first movement from 3.8 to 3.12, means it's barely been looked at let alone tested, those that do attempt to test it come into irc regular to complain about it. So can we not have our DE chosen on the merit of 20 cents, and instead decide which DE is best for technical reasons, usability, accessibility or interface and start customising it pronto? (ie, still need to decide on a default theme) For reference i do not use XFCE or GNOME as my default DE, i have attempted to use sid and testing in a vm to test gnome3 recently and just gave up, that obviously might have changed in the last few weeks.
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
On ven., 2014-08-08 at 18:38 -0700, Paul C. Bryan wrote: With all due respect to XFCE, I'd hate the interpretation to be along the lines of, Oh, Debian state of the art desktop environment feels something like Windows, circa 2000. But, XFCE's lightweight. It's meant to lack such fancy features. I'm unsure what you mean by that. We don't do specific efforts to tune Xfce appearance (that's not really our priority indeed), but you might want to take a look at Xubuntu customization if eye candy is what interest you. Regards, -- Yves-Alexis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
On jeu., 2014-08-07 at 23:57 +0200, Jordi Mallach wrote: Hi Debian, About the decision itself, as Debian Xfce main maintainer, I honestly don't really care. I don't think the default desktop matters that much on Debian (while I guess it means a lot for Ubuntu, for example). I actually think having no default desktop would be just fine, instead having the current 3-4 desktop installation media. Then anyone can pick the DE she likes. Now, about specific items: Downstream health: The number of active members in the team taking care of GNOME in Debian is around 5-10 persons, while it is 1-2 in the case of Xfce. Being the default desktop draws a lot of attention (and bug reports) that only a bigger team might have the resources to handle. Indeed. I somehow hoped that the attention brought on the initial switch would bring more developpers to the pkg-xfce team, but that failed. But I'm unsure how much people actually saw the switch, since it's only for the current beta installers for Jessie… Upstream health: While GNOME is still committed to its time-based release schedule and ships new versions every 6 months, Xfce upstream is, unfortunately, struggling a bit more to keep up with new plumbing technology. Only very recently it has regained support to suspend/hibernate via logind, or support for Bluez 5.x, for example. Same as above. Hardware: GNOME 3.12 will be one of the few desktop environments to support HiDPI displays, now very common on some laptop models. Lack of support for HiDPI means non-technical users will get an unreadable desktop by default, and no hints on how to fix that. Well, considering Xorg harcodes DPI to 96, what's the problem anyway? Also, with DPI correctly set to 140 on my Thinkpad (not really HiDPI but still more than 96), the only problems I've seen is chromium since it dropped GTK (#749239 where the URL bar font is oversized and the menu fonts are unreadable). Security: GNOME is more secure. There are no processes launched with root permissions on the user’s session. All everyday operations (package management, disk partitioning and formatting, date/time configuration…) are accomplished through PolicyKit wrappers. That doesn't make much sense to me. It seems you're considering GNOME as a distribution more than a desktop environment. That's not how Xfce sees it. It relies on stuff like PolicyKit for interactions with hardware, for example, but it doesn't really ship anything which should be run as root. The user is free to do anything she wants, though. Privacy: One of the latest focuses of GNOME development is improving privacy, and work is being done to make it easy to run GNOME applications in isolated containers, integrate Tor seamlessly in the desktop experience, better disk encryption support and other features that should make GNOME a more secure desktop environment for end users. Again, for me that's somehow unrelated to the DE, but my vision is less about having a DE which does everything and more about having it only handle things like session, window management, file management (each component appart). It's perfectly possible to use GNOME components in Xfce, and actually a lot of people do that. systemd embracing: One of the reasons to switch to Xfce was that it didn’t depend on systemd. But now that systemd is the default, that shouldn’t be a problem. Also given ConsoleKit is deprecated and dead upstream, KDE and Xfce are switching or are planning to switch to systemd/logind. Not really. We relie on PolicyKit and used to use ConsoleKit because that was somehow enforced on about everyone. Now ConsoleKit has been deprecated, and the same people now enforce libpam-systemd and logind. I'm fine with that, but the goal would be to support both systemd and sysvrc/systemd-shim systems. Many members of the Debian GNOME team feel shipping Xfce by default would mean regressing in a few key areas like, as mentioned before, accessibility, localisation and documentation of the default set of applications. We are wary about the state of some features of the current default with respect to power management and bluetooth, for example. These features are driven by, and working since day 1, by GNOME 3.12. Put it another way, Xfce (and other DEs) have been hurt by the various enforced transitions (ConsoleKit, hal/devicekit-power/upower/upower-0.99), yes. Combined with the lack of resources, that means it lays behind the people who decided those transitions. Regards, -- Yves-Alexis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
