Re: [RFC] Consequences for official CD/DVD images for Lenny
On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 10:51:41AM +0100, Mattias Wadenstein wrote: On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, Frans Pop wrote: On Thursday 04 December 2008, Frank Lin PIAT wrote: I have noticed that Ubuntu only advertises CD1 on their download page. I think it is really sensible: The CD-1 contains Xwindow, so a [new] user gets a usable desktop... even if he/she face network connectivity problem. Actually I think Ubunty advertises a DVD, not a CD. If that is correct then your argument is invalid. And Debian is not Ubuntu anyway. I also mirror Ubuntu, and they advertise a single CD per flavour or whatever they call it. That is one desktop (gnome), one KDE, one server, etc CD image for normal installations. If you want packages outside the default install you have to either have networking or dig around to find the DVDs etc. This is correct. Ubuntu DVDs are built but not especially strongly advertised. CDs are the major focus. (As Frans noted, this is a bit of a red herring for Debian anyway. Offering a single CD is a major focus for Ubuntu; with the size of software these days, you can't just magic that up out of nowhere, you have to have a significant part of the project knowing that that's the target.) -- Colin Watson (Ubuntu CD image maintainer) [cjwat...@ubuntu.com] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [RFC] Consequences for official CD/DVD images for Lenny
On Tuesday 30 December 2008, Rick Thomas wrote: I'm only a user and a tester, so I don't get to vote, but I'd go for Of course you get to vote (and vote here is more just an expression of preference than an official count anyway). the increased utility of dropping ppc from the multi-arch/multi- desktop DVD-1. In exchange, I'd like to see a PPC-only DVD-1 with the same functionality. The regular powerpc DVD will switch from GNOME-based to all-desktop. The only thing missing is offering boot options to select different desktop environments as we'll now do for x86, but that could possibly be implemented by someone more familiar with powerpc than I am. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [RFC] Consequences for official CD/DVD images for Lenny
On Tuesday 30 December 2008, Andrew Lee wrote: So the question would be source vs ppc arch support, which is more useful for our users on the multi-arch DVD for the purpose? I think only people who don't have good internet connection would need source packages. And I guess rare of these people needs multi-arch support. So for these users, better choose standalone arch DVD image, cause they would need fully offline installation and source packages. So, may I vote for 4? Source has been added specifically to make the m-a DVD suitable to be handed out at trade shows or included with magazines and such. It makes sure that the source availability requirement of the GPL is met. It is an option and my original tests showed that all tasks would be completely covered, but I don't think its the most likely choice. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [RFC] Consequences for official CD/DVD images for Lenny
On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 09:11:20AM +0100, Frans Pop wrote: The regular powerpc DVD will switch from GNOME-based to all-desktop. The only thing missing is offering boot options to select different desktop environments as we'll now do for x86, but that could possibly be implemented by someone more familiar with powerpc than I am. I'm willing to have a look at that, at least for the yaboot part. Can you give me some reasonable pointers as to where the source is and what needs to be done? -- Lo-lan-do Home is where you have to wash the dishes. -- #debian-devel, Freenode, 2004-09-22 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [RFC] Consequences for official CD/DVD images for Lenny
On Tuesday 30 December 2008, Wouter Verhelst wrote: On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 09:11:20AM +0100, Frans Pop wrote: The regular powerpc DVD will switch from GNOME-based to all-desktop. The only thing missing is offering boot options to select different desktop environments as we'll now do for x86, but that could possibly be implemented by someone more familiar with powerpc than I am. I'm willing to have a look at that, at least for the yaboot part. Can you give me some reasonable pointers as to where the source is and what needs to be done? Basic boot loader configuration _may_ be prepared by D-I and passed on to debian-cd as part of the image/files generated by the build_cdrom target. See installer/build/boot/ in D-I SVN. That is then further manipulated by debian-cd using the make CD bootable scripts based on the value of the DESKTOP envvar. See utils/boot/lenny/ in debian-cd SVN. That's how x86 works, but no idea if powerpc is the same. I cannot comment very much on what needs to happen as that very much depends on what the bootloader supports. But essentially you have to create options for the user to choose from based on which desktop environments are available and add the correct desktop=XXX boot parameter. Main challenge is that the total number of permutations explodes as you also have regular, expert, auto and 32-bit versus 64-bit to support, so you'll have to find a way to keep it organized. See the patch series [1] I recently committed to debian-cd for x86 for inspiration, especially 4 and 5. [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-cd/2008/12/ Note that the final commits were slightly different from the mails. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [RFC] Consequences for official CD/DVD images for Lenny
On Dec 30, 2008, at 6:52 AM, Frans Pop wrote: On Tuesday 30 December 2008, Wouter Verhelst wrote: On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 09:11:20AM +0100, Frans Pop wrote: The regular powerpc DVD will switch from GNOME-based to all-desktop. The only thing missing is offering boot options to select different desktop environments as we'll now do for x86, Given that all the necessary packages will be available on the DVD, doesn't it make more sense to do the selection in tasksel, rather than at boot-time? It would certainly be more convenient for the user. IMHO, doing it at boot time violates the principle of least astonishment. As I understand it, the original argument for doing it at boot time was that you couldn't fit all the options onto a single CD, so you had to segregate them into one CD per desktop type, so the decision really had to be pushed back even further than boot-time -- it was already made at CD creation time. This makes sense in the CD context (except for those who had good Internet connectivity and could get whatever they needed from a friendly neighborhood mirror site). But if you can fit all the desktops into a DVD, that argument is moot. Or am I missing something? Rick -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [RFC] Consequences for official CD/DVD images for Lenny
On Tuesday 30 December 2008, Rick Thomas wrote: Given that all the necessary packages will be available on the DVD, doesn't it make more sense to do the selection in tasksel, rather than at boot-time? It would certainly be more convenient for the user. IMHO, doing it at boot time violates the principle of least astonishment. See [1] in http://lists.debian.org/debian-cd/2008/12/msg00019.html signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [RFC] Consequences for official CD/DVD images for Lenny
On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 10:23:33PM +0100, Frans Pop wrote: I think we have the following options here: 1) keep the m-a DVD as it is: GNOME only and i386/amd64/ppc/source (3rd column in 1st table, or 1st column in 2nd table) 2) drop ppc from existing m-a DVD, GNOME only, but with hugely increased usability for installs without network (4th column in 1st table) 3) change m-a DVD to support all desktop environments; drop powerpc (3rd column in 2nd table) 4) something I have not investigated: drop source... My personal vote goes to option 3. Seconded. Let's do that now. At this point, I'm no longer convinced that ppc is worth the space on this m-a DVD. If people feel strongly otherwise, at least it's now much easier to make custom images using debian-cd. -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com You can't barbecue lettuce! -- Ellie Crane -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [RFC] Consequences for official CD/DVD images for Lenny
On Dec 30, 2008, at 1:36 PM, Frans Pop wrote: On Tuesday 30 December 2008, Rick Thomas wrote: Given that all the necessary packages will be available on the DVD, doesn't it make more sense to do the selection in tasksel, rather than at boot-time? It would certainly be more convenient for the user. IMHO, doing it at boot time violates the principle of least astonishment. See [1] in http://lists.debian.org/debian-cd/2008/12/msg00019.html Frans wrote: The simple reason is that Joey Hess, the lead developer for tasksel, has always been opposed to doing it in tasksel with as main argument that tasksel is mostly for new users who are probably not aware of what DEs exist and thus would only be confused when having to choose between meaningless names as GNOME, KDE, etc. I don't know (or care to get involved with) the personalities here, so if I'm meddling in the affairs of wizards, I apologize and somebody should email me off-line ti tell me back off. Nevertheless: Suppose somebody (maybe me?) were to write a patch to tasksel that implemented an expert mode with big bold warnings Here there be dragons. Don't do this unless you *really* know what you're doing! Useful, but newbie-dangerous, options could be put there, including selection of which DEs to install. If such a patch was available, would Joey be willing to accept it? (Before I volunteer, what language is tasksel written in? If it's in Python or C, languages that I know well, I might be able to take it on.) Crawling back under my rock, Rick -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [RFC] Consequences for official CD/DVD images for Lenny
On Thursday 04 December 2008, Frank Lin PIAT wrote: I have noticed that Ubuntu only advertises CD1 on their download page. I think it is really sensible: The CD-1 contains Xwindow, so a [new] user gets a usable desktop... even if he/she face network connectivity problem. Actually I think Ubunty advertises a DVD, not a CD. If that is correct then your argument is invalid. And Debian is not Ubuntu anyway. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [RFC] Consequences for official CD/DVD images for Lenny
On Thursday 04 December 2008, Christian Perrier wrote: In short: installs from CD will offer all desktops but only GNOME is installable without the network or other CDs. Do I understand correctly? Not quite. Installs from CD will _offer_ only the default GNOME: there will be no option to select another DE in the isolinux menu. However, you can still (same as is possible now) select a different DE by manually adding a 'desktop=XXX' boot parameter. I expect that if you would boot with for example 'desktop=kde' and then don't use a mirror or scan at least 3 or 4 CDs, the Desktop environment option will just not be shown in tasksel as the packages needed for the task are not available. That is exactly why I don't want to offer other desktops in the isolinux menu for CDs: you cannot be sure they will actually be installable. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [RFC] Consequences for official CD/DVD images for Lenny
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, Frans Pop wrote: On Thursday 04 December 2008, Frank Lin PIAT wrote: I have noticed that Ubuntu only advertises CD1 on their download page. I think it is really sensible: The CD-1 contains Xwindow, so a [new] user gets a usable desktop... even if he/she face network connectivity problem. Actually I think Ubunty advertises a DVD, not a CD. If that is correct then your argument is invalid. And Debian is not Ubuntu anyway. I also mirror Ubuntu, and they advertise a single CD per flavour or whatever they call it. That is one desktop (gnome), one KDE, one server, etc CD image for normal installations. If you want packages outside the default install you have to either have networking or dig around to find the DVDs etc. /Mattias Wadenstein -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [RFC] Consequences for official CD/DVD images for Lenny
On Wednesday 03 December 2008, Frans Pop wrote: multi-arch images - The i386/amd64/powerpc DVD is more problematic as having all desktops will completely fill the DVD leaving no room for other packages with a high popcon score. Proposal is therefore to drop powerpc support from this DVD. With only i386 and amd64 there is still room for the top ~2600 packages on the DVD. I made a mistake here as I forgot that multi-arch (m-a) DVD images are also supposed to include source. So let me give the correct data and then draw some new conclusions for this image. First, let's take a look at what's roughly on existing images. The 3rd column is the existing i386/amd64/ppc/source DVD. The 4th column is a fictional i386/amd64/source DVD, i.e. what would happen if ppc were dropped from the current m-a DVD. amd64 CD1 ppc CD1 m-a DVD (+ppc) m-a DVD (-ppc) * key packages - GNOME all all all all - Server tasks alla few all all - l10n allnone all all - l10n desktop allnone all all - l10n GNOME allnone all all * non-key packages - GNOME a few none most all - desktop (OOo etc) nonenone none all - Server tasks nonenone none all - l10n nonenone none all - l10n desktop nonenone nonea few - l10n GNOMEnonenone nonenone - l10n KDE- -- - Note that there is a HUGE difference between the amd64 and powerpc first CD images: the second is incomplete to the point of being unusable by itself. Reason is the number of different flavors included for powerpc, which results in multiple D-I initrds and kernels and multiple regular kernel packages being included. The same effect can be seen in the size of the netinst images: - i386:150 MB - amd64: 131 MB - powerpc: 198 MB - 33% larger than i386! Note also that the current M-A DVD (including ppc) almost exactly matches the amd64 CD1, which is roughly what was intended. But it is also clear that dropping ppc from it would increase its usability for installs without network mirror by a huge margin. So now let's look at how the m-a DVD would look if we'd include all desktop environments. The first column lists the existing m-a DVD for comparison. GNOME desktopall desktopsall desktops m-a DVD (+ppc) m-a DVD (+ppc) m-a DVD (-ppc) * key packages - GNOME all all all - KDE- all all - Xfce/LXDE - all all - Server tasks all all all - l10n all all all - l10n desktop all all all - l10n GNOMEall all all - l10n KDE - all all * non-key packages - GNOMEmosta fewall - KDE- none all - Xfce/LXDE - none all - desktop (OOo etc)nonenone some - Server tasks nonenone none - l10n nonenone none - l10n desktop nonenone none - l10n GNOME nonenone none - l10n KDE - none none So an all-desktops m-a DVD without powerpc does a lot better job of actually supporting all desktops than if powerpc is included; l10n support is limited in both cases. I think we have the following options here: 1) keep the m-a DVD as it is: GNOME only and i386/amd64/ppc/source (3rd column in 1st table, or 1st column in 2nd table) 2) drop ppc from existing m-a DVD, GNOME only, but with hugely increased usability for installs without network (4th column in 1st table) 3) change m-a DVD to support all desktop environments; drop powerpc (3rd column in 2nd table) 4) something I have not investigated: drop source... My personal vote goes to option 3. Cheers, FJP signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [RFC] Consequences for official CD/DVD images for Lenny
On Thursday 04 December 2008, peter green wrote: The i386/amd64/powerpc DVD is more problematic as having all desktops will completely fill the DVD leaving no room for other packages with a high popcon score. Proposal is therefore to drop powerpc support from this DVD. With only i386 and amd64 there is still room for the top ~2600 packages on the DVD. I'm not sure about this one, there are still quite a few powerpc macs out there and hopefully PS3 support will be coming to debian at some point. Yes, dropping powerpc is not great, but life is about making choices. Powerpc is very definitely losing its user base (just compare the number of macbooks (ppc based!) you see now at conferences with what you saw 3 or 4 years ago. So if we see the possibility of a major improvement for x86 users, then I think it should at least be considered. See the other mail I just sent in this thread for a detailed comparison of the different options. Dropping images that make no sense? === Somewhat unrelated. We have several architectures that don't support booting from CD (armel, mipsel, s390) which means we're building a number of images that nobody will ever use: - businesscard and netinst - KDE, XFCE aren't CD images also used to do hd-media installs? Yes, but those arches don't support hd-media either... Cheers, FJP signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [RFC] Consequences for official CD/DVD images for Lenny
On Dec 29, 2008, at 4:43 PM, Frans Pop wrote: Powerpc is very definitely losing its user base (just compare the number of macbooks (ppc based!) you see now at conferences with what you saw 3 or 4 years ago. Actually, MacBook is the name for the Intel-based Apple laptops. The PowerPC based laptops were called iBook (and some other things, but generically they were all iBooks). I only go to one conference a year (LISA -- Large Installation Systems Administration, run by USENIX) but the number of Apple based laptops I see in use by the gathered SysAdmins doesn't change much from year-to-year. Nevertheless, quibbles aside, when Apple dropped the PowerPC, it was a big blow to the availability of relatively inexpensive consumer- grade PowerPC hardware. And this will result, over time, in a drop in demand for the ppc Debian port. Time marches on. I'm only a user and a tester, so I don't get to vote, but I'd go for the increased utility of dropping ppc from the multi-arch/multi- desktop DVD-1. In exchange, I'd like to see a PPC-only DVD-1 with the same functionality. But then, I've got good Internet connectivity, so I can afford to download two separate DVD images if I need to. I can also afford to install from a Businesscard image and get what I need from a nearby mirror. So maybe you should be taking to somebody in India or Uganda about this. Anybody out there with limited Internet bandwidth want to comment? My two cents, Rick -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [RFC] Consequences for official CD/DVD images for Lenny
Hello folks, Frans Pop wrote: I think we have the following options here: 3) change m-a DVD to support all desktop environments; drop powerpc (3rd column in 2nd table) 4) something I have not investigated: drop source... My personal vote goes to option 3. For my personal opinion, the multi-arch DVD is very cool idea, cause of the convenience for our user to do many kind of installations. And may be able to help other users even they have different arch computers and different level of hardwares. That makes this image like a magic and so powerful. :) So the question would be source vs ppc arch support, which is more useful for our users on the multi-arch DVD for the purpose? I think only people who don't have good internet connection would need source packages. And I guess rare of these people needs multi-arch support. So for these users, better choose standalone arch DVD image, cause they would need fully offline installation and source packages. So, may I vote for 4? Sorry Frans, hope you won't mind I made more works on you. :) -Andrew -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [RFC] Consequences for official CD/DVD images for Lenny
Hi, [My two cents tips below] On Wed, 2008-12-03 at 23:32 +0100, Frans Pop wrote: Now that everybody has had a chance to take a look at the patches and try out the test images (ahem...) we should decide how to use the new options and what it will mean for the images we make available for Lenny. [..] The following images will remain essentially unchanged: - netinst/businesscard images for arches other than i386/amd64 - full CD images - KDE installation CD - alpha/hppa/ia64 multi-arch CD I have noticed that Ubuntu only advertises CD1 on their download page. I think it is really sensible: The CD-1 contains Xwindow, so a [new] user gets a usable desktop... even if he/she face network connectivity problem. Advanced users can still use netboot/BC/jigdo/DVD... netinst and businesscard (i386 and amd64 only) -- We can also add the option to select an alternative DE to the smaller images. After all, packages will be downloaded from a mirror anyway so we know all desktops will be available. The contents of the images themselves will not change. I see only benefits from this as general usability is improved. yes multi-arch images - The i386/amd64/powerpc CD is basically a netinst image, so that can get desktop=all to enable DE selection in the boot menu for i386 and amd64. The i386/amd64/powerpc DVD is more problematic as having all desktops will completely fill the DVD leaving no room for other packages with a high popcon score. Proposal is therefore to drop powerpc support from this DVD. With only i386 and amd64 there is still room for the top ~2600 packages on the DVD. PowerPC's popcon is steady (or even decreasing), probably because Apple don't sale any PPC system anymore. On the other hand, x86_64 system are now extremely popular now. I like the idea of such 2arch/4desktop/+2600pkg DVDs for events. Franklin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RFC] Consequences for official CD/DVD images for Lenny
The i386/amd64/powerpc DVD is more problematic as having all desktops will completely fill the DVD leaving no room for other packages with a high popcon score. Proposal is therefore to drop powerpc support from this DVD. With only i386 and amd64 there is still room for the top ~2600 packages on the DVD. I'm not sure about this one, there are still quite a few powerpc macs out there and hopefully PS3 support will be coming to debian at some point. Dropping images that make no sense? === Somewhat unrelated. We have several architectures that don't support booting from CD (armel, mipsel, s390) which means we're building a number of images that nobody will ever use: - businesscard and netinst - KDE, XFCE aren't CD images also used to do hd-media installs? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RFC] Consequences for official CD/DVD images for Lenny
Quoting Frans Pop ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Now that everybody has had a chance to take a look at the patches and try out the test images (ahem...) we should decide how to use the new options Ahem, as you say...:-) I was planning to do such testing next week-end as I had no opportunity to do it during that week. However, I wonder if that's really worth it as Franklin did so and I trust him for the care of the tests (at least much more than /me). Everything in this mail is a proposal (i.e. open for discussion), loosely based on some brainstorming Steve and I did a couple of weeks ago. As often with your proposals, Frans (and, of course, that's not a criticism), it is well thought and written enough and therefore does not leave much things to comment on (except me too statements). Let's try, anyway because of the great work involved in the preparation of that proposal. Light desktop environment CD image == This image, supporting both the XFCE and LXDE desktop tasks, would replace the existing XFCE CD. For i386 and amd64 the isolinux menu supports selecting which desktop environment (DE) should be installed. For some other arches for which debian-cd supports the KERNEL_PARAMS envvar (powerpc, sparc, hppa), the default desktop will be XFCE; users will need to manually add 'desktop=lxde' at boot time to change that. For other arches the default desktop will be GNOME and users need to manually add either 'desktop=lxde' or 'desktop=xfce'. Fair enough. With the noticeable exception of powerpc, most arches are probably installed very rarely with a desktop environment anywayand this is not a regression, but only something that's made easier for popular arches. All desktop environments support There are two aspects to that: 1) what packages get included on the first DVD 2) desktop environment selection [1] in isolinux menu for i386 and amd64 Why not use this option for CD sets? * It would mean non-key Gnome packages get pushed back to later CDs. * It would make CD1 effectively unusable for any DE when used by itself. * To be certain you can fully install any DE task you'd need to scan *a lot* of CDs (about 7) or you'll be downloading most packages from a mirror, in which case you should be using a netinst image anyway. So, it makes a lot of sense to just keep the CD sets GNOME-centered and keep the KDE and light DE installation CDs for those who really want to install the other DEs from CD. In short: installs from CD will offer all desktops but only GNOME is installable without the network or other CDs. Do I understand correctly? DVDs (and Blu-Ray) -- For DVDs it makes most sense IMO to keep the order in which packages are added the same for all architectures, so that would mean configuring debian-cd to use desktop=all for all arches. I have verified that for the i386 DVD all DE and server and language tasks easily fit on the first DVD with plenty of room left over for the top packages from popcon (first ~3900 get included). For all arches the default desktop will remain GNOME. For i386 and amd64 users will have the option to select which DE they want to install from the Advanced options boot menu. For other arches users will need to manually add 'desktop=...' to select an alternative DE. Perfect, imho. netinst and businesscard (i386 and amd64 only) -- We can also add the option to select an alternative DE to the smaller images. After all, packages will be downloaded from a mirror anyway so we know all desktops will be available. The contents of the images themselves will not change. I see only benefits from this as general usability is improved. That is a *great* improvement. I see no objection at all, but the need to document this. multi-arch images - The i386/amd64/powerpc CD is basically a netinst image, so that can get desktop=all to enable DE selection in the boot menu for i386 and amd64. The i386/amd64/powerpc DVD is more problematic as having all desktops will completely fill the DVD leaving no room for other packages with a high popcon score. Proposal is therefore to drop powerpc support from this DVD. With only i386 and amd64 there is still room for the top ~2600 packages on the DVD. Isn't that facing the reality that powerpc is probably no longer a popular architecture.and, even more, an architecture where people rarely reinstall new machines. Seems fair to me and a good compromise for keeping a very useful DVD image (IMHO, the multi-arch DVD will certainly be the choice of magazines who distribute DVDs or the choice of those of us who distribute installation media at booths in expos) Dropping images that make no sense? === Somewhat unrelated. We have several architectures that don't support booting from CD
