Re: Completely switch graphical installer to fonts-noto?

[Cyril Brulebois]

Hi,

Finally getting back to this slightly old thread…

Holger Wansing  (2020-04-13):
> Cyril Brulebois  wrote:
> > I'm not sure there's actually “no point”. A possible fontconfig
> > issue could be hindering your tests regarding that switch…

So in the end it wasn't a fontconfig issue, but a pango one instead, see
my reply:

  https://bugs.debian.org/956612#10

> I fail to understand the correlations of all this, apparently.
> 
> In this case, we should - at a minimum - postpone the fonts-noto
> switch for a later alpha?

If we're going to ask people to compare how fonts look, we should better
make sure the rendering is correct. Otherwise we're asking them to
compare apples and oranges, and that seems to be a huge waste of time.


Cheers,
-- 
Cyril Brulebois (k...@debian.org)
D-I release manager -- Release team member -- Freelance Consultant


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Re: Completely switch graphical installer to fonts-noto?

[Holger Wansing]

Hi,

Cyril Brulebois  wrote:
> Holger Wansing  (2020-04-09):
> > Cyril Brulebois  wrote:
> > > Cyril Brulebois  (2020-03-28):
> > > > This would be an easy way to publish updated installation images for
> > > > people to toy with, and compare with the previous alpha. And I think
> > > > that'd be a sensible approach (at least that's what I had in mind).
> > > > 
> > > > Gathering the results and drawing a conclusion is what worries me a
> > > > little.
> > > 
> > > By the way, I didn't investigate this in deep but I didn't easily spot a
> > > recent change regarding fonts in the few d-i packages I had in mind… I'm
> > > seeing a rather different rendering (which seems rather bad at first
> > > glance) with the daily build I was about to test.
> > > 
> > > It might be a side effect of the recent fontconfig upload:
> > >   
> > > https://tracker.debian.org/news/1113021/accepted-fontconfig-2131-3-source-all-amd64-into-unstable-unstable/
> > > 
> > > Attached, reference image for the languages screen for bullseye, plus a
> > > screenshot for a daily build.
> > > 
> > > If someone fancies investigating… ;)
> > 
> > There is no point in investigating that, if we switch to fonts-noto
> > anyway :-))
> 
> I'm not sure there's actually “no point”. A possible fontconfig issue
> could be hindering your tests regarding that switch…

I fail to understand the correlations of all this, apparently.

In this case, we should - at a minimum - postpone the fonts-noto switch for
a later alpha?


Holger



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Holger Wansing 
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Re: Completely switch graphical installer to fonts-noto?

[Cyril Brulebois]

Holger Wansing  (2020-04-09):
> Cyril Brulebois  wrote:
> > Cyril Brulebois  (2020-03-28):
> > > This would be an easy way to publish updated installation images for
> > > people to toy with, and compare with the previous alpha. And I think
> > > that'd be a sensible approach (at least that's what I had in mind).
> > > 
> > > Gathering the results and drawing a conclusion is what worries me a
> > > little.
> > 
> > By the way, I didn't investigate this in deep but I didn't easily spot a
> > recent change regarding fonts in the few d-i packages I had in mind… I'm
> > seeing a rather different rendering (which seems rather bad at first
> > glance) with the daily build I was about to test.
> > 
> > It might be a side effect of the recent fontconfig upload:
> >   
> > https://tracker.debian.org/news/1113021/accepted-fontconfig-2131-3-source-all-amd64-into-unstable-unstable/
> > 
> > Attached, reference image for the languages screen for bullseye, plus a
> > screenshot for a daily build.
> > 
> > If someone fancies investigating… ;)
> 
> There is no point in investigating that, if we switch to fonts-noto
> anyway :-))

I'm not sure there's actually “no point”. A possible fontconfig issue
could be hindering your tests regarding that switch…


Cheers,
-- 
Cyril Brulebois (k...@debian.org)
D-I release manager -- Release team member -- Freelance Consultant


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Re: Completely switch graphical installer to fonts-noto?

[Holger Wansing]

Hi,

Cyril Brulebois  wrote:
> Cyril Brulebois  (2020-03-28):
> > This would be an easy way to publish updated installation images for
> > people to toy with, and compare with the previous alpha. And I think
> > that'd be a sensible approach (at least that's what I had in mind).
> > 
> > Gathering the results and drawing a conclusion is what worries me a
> > little.
> 
> By the way, I didn't investigate this in deep but I didn't easily spot a
> recent change regarding fonts in the few d-i packages I had in mind… I'm
> seeing a rather different rendering (which seems rather bad at first
> glance) with the daily build I was about to test.
> 
> It might be a side effect of the recent fontconfig upload:
>   
> https://tracker.debian.org/news/1113021/accepted-fontconfig-2131-3-source-all-amd64-into-unstable-unstable/
> 
> Attached, reference image for the languages screen for bullseye, plus a
> screenshot for a daily build.
> 
> If someone fancies investigating… ;)

There is no point in investigating that, if we switch to fonts-noto anyway :-))

So I would like to evaluate a decision regarding that issue, before acting on 
the above...


Holger


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Holger Wansing 
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Re: Completely switch graphical installer to fonts-noto?

[Cyril Brulebois]

Cyril Brulebois  (2020-03-28):
> This would be an easy way to publish updated installation images for
> people to toy with, and compare with the previous alpha. And I think
> that'd be a sensible approach (at least that's what I had in mind).
> 
> Gathering the results and drawing a conclusion is what worries me a
> little.

By the way, I didn't investigate this in deep but I didn't easily spot a
recent change regarding fonts in the few d-i packages I had in mind… I'm
seeing a rather different rendering (which seems rather bad at first
glance) with the daily build I was about to test.

It might be a side effect of the recent fontconfig upload:
  
https://tracker.debian.org/news/1113021/accepted-fontconfig-2131-3-source-all-amd64-into-unstable-unstable/

Attached, reference image for the languages screen for bullseye, plus a
screenshot for a daily build.

If someone fancies investigating… ;)


Cheers,
-- 
Cyril Brulebois (k...@debian.org)
D-I release manager -- Release team member -- Freelance Consultant


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Re: Completely switch graphical installer to fonts-noto?

[Holger Wansing]

Hi,

Cyril Brulebois  wrote:
> Besides the first topic you mentioned, and the idea of putting all our
> eggs in the same basket (possibly meaning less maintenance for us,
> and/or maybe more pressure on the maintainers of a newly-critical
> component), the big question is what users will think of the changes.

Another benefit I think: it would make it easier to add new languages to 
the installer, if needed.
Like with the mail we had some days ago regarding the addition of Moroccan 
Darija.
I imagine we are lacking some deeper skills on those topics in the installer 
team these days?
But switching to the noto fonts went really smoothly AFAICS, so that might
be an improvement.


Holger

-- 
Holger Wansing 
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Re: Completely switch graphical installer to fonts-noto?

[Holger Wansing]

Hi,

Jonas Smedegaard  wrote:
> [ I am not subscribed: please cc me on replies ]
> 
> Quoting Cyril Brulebois (2020-03-28 18:09:51)
> > Steve McIntyre  (2020-03-28):
> > > Hey folks,
> > > 
> > > On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 05:52:26PM +0100, Cyril Brulebois wrote:
> > > >Holger Wansing  (2020-03-27):
> > > >> 
> > > >> So, what's the opinion of the team: is there any interest to move to
> > > >> fonts-noto?
> > > >
> > > >Besides the first topic you mentioned, and the idea of putting all our
> > > >eggs in the same basket (possibly meaning less maintenance for us,
> > > >and/or maybe more pressure on the maintainers of a newly-critical
> > > >component), the big question is what users will think of the changes.
> > > >
> > > >I suppose the best way to approach this would be to ask e.g. translators
> > > >for each language to compare the rendering before/after, and have them
> > > >tell us what they think (maybe by setting up a poll). I suspect this
> > > >might be a rather time consuming task…
> > > 
> > > Maybe just do it, and announce it as a big change for the next alpha
> > > release?
> > 
> > This would be an easy way to publish updated installation images for
> > people to toy with, and compare with the previous alpha. And I think
> > that'd be a sensible approach (at least that's what I had in mind).
> > 
> > Gathering the results and drawing a conclusion is what worries me a
> > little.
> 
> I understand your concern, and I agree that it makes sense to check with 
> native speakers of the languages involved.
> 
> My worry was how to make it easy to compare, and I think Holgers image 
> can help with that (I still need to fumble with it to see how best to 
> use it).
> 
> If I get something working, I will try share it with Debian friends in 
> India to try get a feel for how it might be sensible to proceed more 
> generally.  Or maybe I will simply take it one locale at a time, get in 
> touch with each, and have them help evaluate, just as you suggest :-)

I would have created various screenshots, from the original and the new
installer screens. However, if you are volunteering for that... ;-))

Contacting active translators seems the less problematic part, however we
have several languages with no active translators currently.
Those will probably become the more critical parts to evaluate, especially
if it comes to non-latin scripts...



Holger

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Holger Wansing 
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Re: Completely switch graphical installer to fonts-noto?

[Jonas Smedegaard]

[ I am not subscribed: please cc me on replies ]

Quoting Cyril Brulebois (2020-03-28 18:09:51)
> Steve McIntyre  (2020-03-28):
> > Hey folks,
> > 
> > On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 05:52:26PM +0100, Cyril Brulebois wrote:
> > >Holger Wansing  (2020-03-27):
> > >> 
> > >> So, what's the opinion of the team: is there any interest to move to
> > >> fonts-noto?
> > >
> > >Besides the first topic you mentioned, and the idea of putting all our
> > >eggs in the same basket (possibly meaning less maintenance for us,
> > >and/or maybe more pressure on the maintainers of a newly-critical
> > >component), the big question is what users will think of the changes.
> > >
> > >I suppose the best way to approach this would be to ask e.g. translators
> > >for each language to compare the rendering before/after, and have them
> > >tell us what they think (maybe by setting up a poll). I suspect this
> > >might be a rather time consuming task…
> > 
> > Maybe just do it, and announce it as a big change for the next alpha
> > release?
> 
> This would be an easy way to publish updated installation images for
> people to toy with, and compare with the previous alpha. And I think
> that'd be a sensible approach (at least that's what I had in mind).
> 
> Gathering the results and drawing a conclusion is what worries me a
> little.

I understand your concern, and I agree that it makes sense to check with 
native speakers of the languages involved.

My worry was how to make it easy to compare, and I think Holgers image 
can help with that (I still need to fumble with it to see how best to 
use it).

If I get something working, I will try share it with Debian friends in 
India to try get a feel for how it might be sensible to proceed more 
generally.  Or maybe I will simply take it one locale at a time, get in 
touch with each, and have them help evaluate, just as you suggest :-)

[ I am not subscribed: please cc me on replies ]


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

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Re: Completely switch graphical installer to fonts-noto?

[Jonas Smedegaard]

[ I am not subscribed: please cc me on replies ]

Quoting Jonas Smedegaard (2020-03-28 18:45:56)
> Holger Wansing wrote:
> > However, I did some tests, and I managed to get a netboot-gtk 
> > mini.iso image built with only this font packages:
> >   fonts-android-udeb (apparently needed for CJK languages)
> >   fonts-noto-unhinted-udeb

@Holger: If you can (easily - perhaps you already computed it for 
above?) provide me a list of the actual fonts used in your experimental 
build, then I can make a build of fonts-noto targeted experimental where 
those fonts (except the CJK ones) are added to fonts-noto-hinted-udeb.

Then it should be possible (hopefully even relatively easy) to check if 
size requirements are reasonable.

[ I am not subscribed: please cc me on replies ]

 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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Re: Completely switch graphical installer to fonts-noto?

[Jonas Smedegaard]

[ I am not subscribed: please cc me on replies ]

Quoting Steve McIntyre (2020-03-28 17:58:54)
> On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 05:52:26PM +0100, Cyril Brulebois wrote:
> >Holger Wansing  (2020-03-27):
> >> 
> >> So, what's the opinion of the team: is there any interest to move 
> >> to fonts-noto?
> >
> >Besides the first topic you mentioned, and the idea of putting all 
> >our eggs in the same basket (possibly meaning less maintenance for 
> >us, and/or maybe more pressure on the maintainers of a newly-critical 
> >component), the big question is what users will think of the changes.
> >
> >I suppose the best way to approach this would be to ask e.g. 
> >translators for each language to compare the rendering before/after, 
> >and have them tell us what they think (maybe by setting up a poll). I 
> >suspect this might be a rather time consuming task…
> 
> Maybe just do it, and announce it as a big change for the next alpha 
> release?

Thanks for Cc'im me, Steve - I forgot to mention I am not subscribed.


Holger Wansing wrote:
> However, I did some tests, and I managed to get a netboot-gtk mini.iso 
> image built with only this font packages:
>   fonts-android-udeb (apparently needed for CJK languages)
>   fonts-noto-unhinted-udeb

The CJK fonts are _not_ optimized for embedded use.

What I recommend is to switch all _except_ CJK locales to use 
fonts-noto-hinted-udeb + fonts-noto-unhinted-udeb.  That should be far 
less bloated, and can be reduced further by including only the fonts 
actually used.

The package names for the udeb packages are misleading (only reasons not 
renaming are a) the annoying delay waiting for NEW processing and b) 
bothering you installer team folks with adjusting for such rename).
Really the two packages contain this:

fonts-noto-hinted-udeb: Unhinted fonts actually used by the installer

fonts-noto-unhinted-udeb: Unhinted other fonts (including hieroglyphs)


Holger Wansing wrote:
> I'm unsure, if switching completely to Google fonts (fonts-noto is a 
> Google project, right?) is what we want, thinking about monopolism...

Correct, the Noto project is funded by Google (as mentioned in the 
package long descriptions).

I share your scepticism towards Google in general, but do not recognize 
any reason for concern here specifically.  Maybe if you shared your 
concerns in more detail, I am happy to reflect on them.

[ I am not subscribed: please cc me on replies ]

 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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Re: Completely switch graphical installer to fonts-noto?

[Cyril Brulebois]

Steve McIntyre  (2020-03-28):
> Hey folks,
> 
> On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 05:52:26PM +0100, Cyril Brulebois wrote:
> >Holger Wansing  (2020-03-27):
> >> 
> >> So, what's the opinion of the team: is there any interest to move to
> >> fonts-noto?
> >
> >Besides the first topic you mentioned, and the idea of putting all our
> >eggs in the same basket (possibly meaning less maintenance for us,
> >and/or maybe more pressure on the maintainers of a newly-critical
> >component), the big question is what users will think of the changes.
> >
> >I suppose the best way to approach this would be to ask e.g. translators
> >for each language to compare the rendering before/after, and have them
> >tell us what they think (maybe by setting up a poll). I suspect this
> >might be a rather time consuming task…
> 
> Maybe just do it, and announce it as a big change for the next alpha
> release?

This would be an easy way to publish updated installation images for
people to toy with, and compare with the previous alpha. And I think
that'd be a sensible approach (at least that's what I had in mind).

Gathering the results and drawing a conclusion is what worries me a
little.


Cheers,
-- 
Cyril Brulebois (k...@debian.org)
D-I release manager -- Release team member -- Freelance Consultant


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Re: Completely switch graphical installer to fonts-noto?

[Steve McIntyre]

Hey folks,

On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 05:52:26PM +0100, Cyril Brulebois wrote:
>Holger Wansing  (2020-03-27):
>> 
>> So, what's the opinion of the team: is there any interest to move to
>> fonts-noto?
>
>Besides the first topic you mentioned, and the idea of putting all our
>eggs in the same basket (possibly meaning less maintenance for us,
>and/or maybe more pressure on the maintainers of a newly-critical
>component), the big question is what users will think of the changes.
>
>I suppose the best way to approach this would be to ask e.g. translators
>for each language to compare the rendering before/after, and have them
>tell us what they think (maybe by setting up a poll). I suspect this
>might be a rather time consuming task…

Maybe just do it, and announce it as a big change for the next alpha
release?

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
Welcome my son, welcome to the machine.