Re: Make syslinux beep?
On Tuesday 12 August 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: Here is a patch. I didn't know how I should detect the kind of build, I just made it look at the udebs source. I don't think it's smart to use USE_UDEBS_FROM here. Better use a dedicated variable. Also, please use '[ test ] [ test ]' instead of '[ test -a test ]'. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Frans Pop, le Tue 12 Aug 2008 10:29:23 +0200, a écrit : On Tuesday 12 August 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: Here is a patch. I didn't know how I should detect the kind of build, I just made it look at the udebs source. I don't think it's smart to use USE_UDEBS_FROM here. Better use a dedicated variable. So add a new one, just for the beeps or some RELEASE_BUILD=true/false? Also, please use '[ test ] [ test ]' instead of '[ test -a test ]'. I'm curious: why? Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Samuel Thibault [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Otavio Salvador, le Mon 11 Aug 2008 22:06:50 -0300, a écrit : Samuel Thibault [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Samuel Thibault, le Tue 12 Aug 2008 00:10:26 +0100, a écrit : Still no feedback on this? (I mean feedback from debian-boot, I got some from debian-accessibility, the feature was greatly appreciated). It would be acceptable for release images. Could to work on a patch to only make it when we're doing a release? (no dailies or local builds) Here is a patch. I didn't know how I should detect the kind of build, I just made it look at the udebs source. I think this is a good way of detection since debian/rules set it in case we're doing a daily build. From my POV it looks good. Let's wait few days to see if someone nack it or something, otherwise I'll commit it in the end of week. -- O T A V I OS A L V A D O R - E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] UIN: 5906116 GNU/Linux User: 239058 GPG ID: 49A5F855 Home Page: http://otavio.ossystems.com.br - Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Samuel Thibault [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Also, please use '[ test ] [ test ]' instead of '[ test -a test ]'. I'm curious: why? Coding Style. -- O T A V I OS A L V A D O R - E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] UIN: 5906116 GNU/Linux User: 239058 GPG ID: 49A5F855 Home Page: http://otavio.ossystems.com.br - Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Otavio Salvador [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From my POV it looks good. Let's wait few days to see if someone nack it or something, otherwise I'll commit it in the end of week. Samuel, Please address both points spoted by Frans and resubmit it. Thanks a lot. -- O T A V I OS A L V A D O R - E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] UIN: 5906116 GNU/Linux User: 239058 GPG ID: 49A5F855 Home Page: http://otavio.ossystems.com.br - Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
On Tue, Aug 12, Samuel Thibault wrote: Snip. Also, please use '[ test ] [ test ]' instead of '[ test -a test ]'. I'm curious: why? To bash specific. Have a look at the dash man page. --Frank -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Samuel Thibault, le Tue 12 Aug 2008 00:10:26 +0100, a écrit : Still no feedback on this? (I mean feedback from debian-boot, I got some from debian-accessibility, the feature was greatly appreciated). Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Hello, Still no feedback on this? Samuel Thibault, le Sun 20 Jul 2008 15:47:18 +0100, a écrit : Otavio Salvador, le Thu 17 Jul 2008 20:33:36 -0300, a écrit : Frans Pop [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Thursday 17 July 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: I do agree it is annoying, but as Sebastien said, it's just about installation. I've asked a few people, they said they wouldn't complain if it could help others. It's annoying for me amongst others. I do huge numbers of installations and even more boots of the installer during development. For development we could put a variable to disable it, and it wouldn't hurt since it would help blind people a lot. I share the Samuel feeling that it would be good. Samuel could provide an image for us to test and see how bad it would be. Ok, it wasn't just putting a ^G in the menu, because syslinux doesn't have beep support in graphical mode... Anyway, I've put an image on http://brl.thefreecat.org/mini-beep.iso Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Samuel Thibault [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Samuel Thibault, le Tue 12 Aug 2008 00:10:26 +0100, a écrit : Still no feedback on this? (I mean feedback from debian-boot, I got some from debian-accessibility, the feature was greatly appreciated). It would be acceptable for release images. Could to work on a patch to only make it when we're doing a release? (no dailies or local builds) -- O T A V I OS A L V A D O R - E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] UIN: 5906116 GNU/Linux User: 239058 GPG ID: 49A5F855 Home Page: http://otavio.ossystems.com.br - Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Otavio Salvador, le Mon 11 Aug 2008 22:06:50 -0300, a écrit : Samuel Thibault [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Samuel Thibault, le Tue 12 Aug 2008 00:10:26 +0100, a écrit : Still no feedback on this? (I mean feedback from debian-boot, I got some from debian-accessibility, the feature was greatly appreciated). It would be acceptable for release images. Could to work on a patch to only make it when we're doing a release? (no dailies or local builds) Here is a patch. I didn't know how I should detect the kind of build, I just made it look at the udebs source. Index: build/config/x86.cfg === --- build/config/x86.cfg(révision 54981) +++ build/config/x86.cfg(copie de travail) @@ -60,6 +60,11 @@ outfile= ; \ fi; \ fi; \ + if [ $$outfile = menu.cfg -a $$USE_UDEBS_FROM != unstable ] ; then \ + addbeep=s/^menu title.*//; \ + else \ + addbeep=; \ + fi; \ if [ $$outfile ]; then \ cat $(file) \ | bootvars-subst MEDIA_TYPE $(MEDIA_TYPE) \ @@ -70,6 +75,7 @@ INITRD_GTK initrdg.gz \ VIDEO_MODE $(VIDEO_MODE) \ VIDEO_MODE_GTK $(VIDEO_MODE_GTK) \ + | sed -e $$addbeep \ | todos | mcopy -i$(TEMP_BOOT) - ::$$outfile; \ fi; \ ) @@ -157,6 +163,11 @@ outfile=isolinux.cfg; \ fi; \ cat $(file) \ + if [ $$outfile = menu.cfg -a $$USE_UDEBS_FROM != unstable ] ; then \ + addbeep=s/^menu title.*//; \ + else \ + addbeep=; \ + fi; \ | bootvars-subst MEDIA_TYPE $(MEDIA_TYPE) \ DEBIAN_VERSION $(DEBIAN_VERSION) \ BUILD_DATE $(BUILD_DATE) \ @@ -165,6 +176,7 @@ INITRD_GTK /install/gtk/initrd.gz \ VIDEO_MODE $(VIDEO_MODE) \ VIDEO_MODE_GTK $(VIDEO_MODE_GTK) \ + | sed -e $$addbeep \ $(TEMP_CD_INFO_DIR)/$$outfile; \ ) @@ -213,6 +225,11 @@ if [ $$outfile = syslinux.cfg ]; then \ outfile=isolinux.cfg; \ fi; \ + if [ $$outfile = menu.cfg -a $$USE_UDEBS_FROM != unstable ] ; then \ + addbeep=s/^menu title.*//; \ + else \ + addbeep=; \ + fi; \ cat $(file) \ | bootvars-subst MEDIA_TYPE $(MEDIA_TYPE) \ DEBIAN_VERSION $(DEBIAN_VERSION) \ @@ -222,6 +239,7 @@ INITRD_GTK /install/gtk/initrd.gz \ VIDEO_MODE $(VIDEO_MODE) \ VIDEO_MODE_GTK $(VIDEO_MODE_GTK) \ + | sed -e $$addbeep \ | todos $(TEMP_CD_TREE)/$$outfile; \ ) @@ -266,6 +284,11 @@ if [ `basename $(file)` = syslinux.cfg ]; then \ outfile=$(TEMP_NETBOOT_DIR)/$(NETBOOT_PATH)/pxelinux.cfg/default; \ fi; \ + if [ $$outfile = menu.cfg -a $$USE_UDEBS_FROM != unstable ] ; then \ + addbeep=s/^menu title.*//; \ + else \ + addbeep=; \ + fi; \ cat $(file) \ | bootvars-subst MEDIA_TYPE $(MEDIA_TYPE) \ DEBIAN_VERSION $(DEBIAN_VERSION) \ @@ -274,6 +297,7 @@ KERNEL $(NETBOOT_PATH)/linux \ INITRD $(NETBOOT_PATH)/initrd.gz \ VIDEO_MODE $(VIDEO_MODE) \ + | sed -e $$addbeep \ $$outfile; \ ) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Otavio Salvador, le Thu 17 Jul 2008 20:33:36 -0300, a écrit : Frans Pop [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: (No need to CC me On Thursday 17 July 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: I do agree it is annoying, but as Sebastien said, it's just about installation. I've asked a few people, they said they wouldn't complain if it could help others. It's annoying for me amongst others. I do huge numbers of installations and even more boots of the installer during development. For development we could put a variable to disable it, and it wouldn't hurt since it would help blind people a lot. I share the Samuel feeling that it would be good. Samuel could provide an image for us to test and see how bad it would be. Ok, it wasn't just putting a ^G in the menu, because syslinux doesn't have beep support in graphical mode... Anyway, I've put an image on http://brl.thefreecat.org/mini-beep.iso Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Stephen Frazier, le Sat 19 Jul 2008 23:11:36 -0500, a écrit : I know that other people with a different set up may not like the beeps. So, why not make it an option. An option at debian-installer build time you mean? If there was a way to pass an option dont beep to an already existing boot image, we wouldn't really need for a beep, we could use that same way to pass accessibility options... Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
I am not blind, but I would like the installer to beep each time it needs input. The monitor that is used when I am installing Debian is located left of the monitor I normally use just outside my sight. When I am trying to do other work during an install I would like the beep to tell me to look over at the install monitor. I know that other people with a different set up may not like the beeps. So, why not make it an option. Would that make everybody happy? -- Stephen Frazier Information Technology Unit Oklahoma Department of Corrections 3400 Martin Luther King Oklahoma City, Ok, 73111-4298 Tel.: (405) 425-2549 Fax: (405) 425-2554 Pager: (405) 690-1828 email: stevef%doc.state.ok.us Frans Pop wrote: On Thursday 17 July 2008, Frans Pop wrote: I'm sorry folks, I have a lot of respect for the extra effort needed every day to deal with life if you have a disability (of whatever form), but you cannot expect the world to always change things to fit your needs. Note that everything in my last mail (and in general) is just my personal opinion and opinion as one of the members of the D-I team and not the final opinion of the team as a whole. I'm not speaking for the team here. We need such discussions to see what people think and I would invite other D-I team members to also give their optinion. Cheers, FJP -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Hi, IIRC correctly it has been discussed before and was rejected as to annoying for the normal case. I must say I agree with that. And I do also. However, I'd like to ask the folloing question: assuming that this may be of some help for others, would such an annoyance really be unacceptable ? Do you really mean that one should not let annoying things happen, if they may help others ? Here we are not even talking about something that would be annoying each time a system boots, we just talk about _installation_. Especially as there's not that much magic involved in booting from CD: just waiting for some time and hitting enter should also work. There is no real difference between there was no beep and I hit enter but nothing happened. It is not a question of pressing enter... Disabled persons may need to type some arguments to be passed to brltty at the syslinux prompt, e.g. to specify which serial braille device to use since this cannot be properly autodetected. So, if there is no way to be sure that the prompt has been reached, one will blindly type the arguments and then press enter, and then, if nothing happens, here will be no way to determine whether ithe problem occurred before or after the syslinux prompt. In both cases a disabled person is going to need help from others to figure out the cause. I am tempted to say that, although you may be right, that's not a reason not to do everything reanoably possible to minimize the needed help. Also, one can notice that it is often the case that the eyes reading the screen for us in emergency situations are those of a non-expert, sometimes non-english speaking person in France. That's why I already noticed that, the more information I can have by myself, the better the situation is. Sébastien. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Frans Pop, le Thu 17 Jul 2008 07:15:38 +0200, a écrit : On Thursday 17 July 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: Samuel Thibault, le Thu 19 Jun 2008 11:08:32 +0100, a écrit : It is a bit hard for blind people to know exactly when they can type boot options for the installer. It would be helpful that syslinux beeps when it is ready to get input. What do people think about it? So would people consider it a problem that debian installation CDs make a beep at syslinux stage by default? It's just a matter of adding a ^G in the menu title for instance. IIRC correctly it has been discussed before and was rejected as to annoying for the normal case. I must say I agree with that. I do agree it is annoying, but as Sebastien said, it's just about installation. I've asked a few people, they said they wouldn't complain if it could help others. Especially as there's not that much magic involved in booting from CD: just waiting for some time and hitting enter should also work. How much time? The BIOS may sometimes take quite long to boot... What blind people currently do is waiting for hearing the CD spinning down, but that's not always feasible, e.g. on a laptop, and they end up booting, waiting for a few minutes, and then hope that it's at the syslinux prompt, then type the magic stuff (with qwerty keymap without help from the screen), type enter, wait for the kernel/udev/etc. to boot, and eventually maybe see brltty or hear speakup starting. On nowadays silent laptops, that's the only point when they eventually get feedback at last. For a sysadmin that's not really convenient. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
(No need to CC me On Thursday 17 July 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: I do agree it is annoying, but as Sebastien said, it's just about installation. I've asked a few people, they said they wouldn't complain if it could help others. It's annoying for me amongst others. I do huge numbers of installations and even more boots of the installer during development. It's also annoying for people using automated testing setups as they'd have random beeps coming out of their test systems, but I'll let Joey comment on that. I could see myself agreeing if you can come up with an implementation that only includes the beep for official builds (i.e. the addition of the beep is triggered by something in debian/rules). We'd also need some assurance that it does not break installs using serial console and on systems using management devices (like HP's iLO [1]). This means it needs to be tested for such cases before the change is committed. Getting it tested would be up to you (accessibility people), though we can possibly point you to people you could contact for that. Cheers, FJP [1] http://h18013.www1.hp.com/products/servers/management/ilo/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Make syslinux beep?
On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 07:15:38AM +0200, Frans Pop wrote: On Thursday 17 July 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: Samuel Thibault, le Thu 19 Jun 2008 11:08:32 +0100, a écrit : It is a bit hard for blind people to know exactly when they can type boot options for the installer. It would be helpful that syslinux beeps when it is ready to get input. What do people think about it? So would people consider it a problem that debian installation CDs make a beep at syslinux stage by default? It's just a matter of adding a ^G in the menu title for instance. IIRC correctly it has been discussed before and was rejected as to annoying for the normal case. I must say I agree with that. Erm, why? One beep at the boot prompt of the installer? Not even every time your system boots, just every time you do an installation. How is that annoying? Don't some older computers beep anyway as you turn them on? So, if this helps the blind, is one beep really too much to ask? I know like 99% of people using debian installers aren't blind, but one bheep won't really be too bad will it? Especially as there's not that much magic involved in booting from CD: just waiting for some time and hitting enter should also work. There is How long? Are we playing the guessing game? Not nice if you have to do 20 installs or something. And, its hard to tell on some machines eg. laptops and other computers, since you try to listen when the disk spins down and this is hard to tell... But, the beep would solve this. I know it wouldn't help on a laptop, but still. no real difference between there was no beep and I hit enter but nothing happened. In both cases a disabled person is going to need help Well, you would know that the boot prompt had appeared, and you could type your boot command to either start braille or speech. So, it would help, and... have you ever booted an installer with out seeing it? Its not really that easy... But I believe the beep could help a lot and its not too much to ask. from others to figure out the cause. not always -- Daniel Dalton http://members.iinet.net.au/~ddalton/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Daniel Dalton, le Thu 17 Jul 2008 20:22:52 +1000, a écrit : But, the beep would solve this. I know it wouldn't help on a laptop, but still. Why wouldn't it help on a laptop? If there is no internal speaker maybe you could use headphone? Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Frans Pop, le Thu 17 Jul 2008 12:32:39 +0200, a écrit : I could see myself agreeing if you can come up with an implementation that only includes the beep for official builds (i.e. the addition of the beep is triggered by something in debian/rules). That should be feasible, so I guess that's the way we can head to. I can have a look at that part. We'd also need some assurance that it does not break installs using serial console and on systems using management devices (like HP's iLO [1]). This means it needs to be tested for such cases before the change is committed. Getting it tested would be up to you (accessibility people), though we can possibly point you to people you could contact for that. It is just about making sure that syslinux emitting a beep doesn't pose problem there, should be feasible. Debian-accessibility people, volunteers? It's just about modifying a syslinux image to add a ^G character, check that it beeps on your system, and have it tested by those people. Thanks for your patience, Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 11:34:49AM +0100, Samuel Thibault wrote: Daniel Dalton, le Thu 17 Jul 2008 20:22:52 +1000, a écrit : But, the beep would solve this. I know it wouldn't help on a laptop, but still. Why wouldn't it help on a laptop? No console tone generator (pc speaker)? If there is no internal speaker maybe you could use headphone? Well, sure if it could go through the soundcard and use my actual laptop speakers, ok. Didn't think that was possible though? Cheers, -- Daniel Dalton http://members.iinet.net.au/~ddalton/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:32:00PM +0200, Christian Schoepplein wrote: For example a beep is generated everytime gdm gets started during the bootup of a machine. I do not know anyone who would complain of that Very good point, so why isn't that annoying? So surely gdm logins would be ran more than installers, and if the gdm log in is not an issue, well, why would the installation be? -- Daniel Dalton http://members.iinet.net.au/~ddalton/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
On Thursday 17 July 2008, Daniel Dalton wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:32:00PM +0200, Christian Schoepplein wrote: For example a beep is generated everytime gdm gets started during the bootup of a machine. I do not know anyone who would complain of that Very good point, so why isn't that annoying? So surely gdm logins would be ran more than installers, and if the gdm log in is not an issue, well, why would the installation be? If it does that by default (which I'm not sure of) I would find that very annoying. I'm a KDE user myself and luckily KDM does not do something as silly as that. Also, a quick google (gdm beep) gave me this: http://osdir.com/ml/linux.redhat.rhl.general/2003-11/msg02026.html http://error.wordpress.com/2005/11/03/gdm-please-dont-beep-at-login/ https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/%2Bsource/gdm/%2Bbug/131126 http://markmail.org/message/5ecwfmnzovmqw63t and tons more... I have absolutely no problem with such features being available as accessibility *options*, but having them enabled by default is just dumb. Should we also all have huge fonts enabled by default and default high contrast themes so that visually impaired users can read things immediately after install? I'm sorry folks, I have a lot of respect for the extra effort needed every day to deal with life if you have a disability (of whatever form), but you cannot expect the world to always change things to fit your needs. For the installer there is always the option of having a custom accessibility version which has every convenience you can think of enabled by default. I know that that also has its downsides, but Debian does make that relatively easy. That option may have to be considered anyway for speakup support (in that case it is image size considerations), but that discussion has not yet really started. For a version of the installer with full speech synthesis support, a custom image would probably be the _only_ option. Cheers, FJP signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Make syslinux beep?
On Thursday 17 July 2008, Frans Pop wrote: I'm sorry folks, I have a lot of respect for the extra effort needed every day to deal with life if you have a disability (of whatever form), but you cannot expect the world to always change things to fit your needs. Note that everything in my last mail (and in general) is just my personal opinion and opinion as one of the members of the D-I team and not the final opinion of the team as a whole. I'm not speaking for the team here. We need such discussions to see what people think and I would invite other D-I team members to also give their optinion. Cheers, FJP signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Hi! As someone that can sometimes start the installer more than 30 times a day (which is a lot more often than one usually hears the deadred GDM beep), I would strongly prefer to avoid a starting beep. Starting there: - most people probably don't start this installer that often, - when I really need to start the installer that often, it is with a custom built image. I think I could probably live with a local build configuration flag that would deactivate the beep, similar to other configuration flags that are substituted in the syslinux configuration file. On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 01:47:53PM +0200, Frans Pop wrote: For the installer there is always the option of having a custom accessibility version which has every convenience you can think of enabled by default. […] That option may have to be considered anyway for speakup support (in that case it is image size considerations), but that discussion has not yet really started. For a version of the installer with full speech synthesis support, a custom image would probably be the _only_ option. One of the other things that we have discussed (but not it full length) with Samuel after his talk during the last DebConf was about trying to add AT-SPI or other GTK+ accessibility features in the graphical installer. One of the issue we thought about was about the image size. So, it would be another aspect that would benefit from a dedicated image. I am quite happy to be active in a free software distribution that is working quite hard on the accessibiliy front. We already have specific installation media for people who prefer a desktop manager to another, and I would be very disapointed if it was not possible to provide another installation medium more tied up for those who simply want a system that is usable for them. Cheers, -- Jérémy Bobbio.''`. [EMAIL PROTECTED]: :Ⓐ : # apt-get install anarchism `. `'` `- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Frans Pop wrote: It's also annoying for people using automated testing setups as they'd have random beeps coming out of their test systems, but I'll let Joey comment on that. I don't actually have any test systems that boot to syslinux on real hardware, so no beeps. Trust me, the noise of the relays flipping on, and then the machine powering up, is much more annoying than a beep awayway. Especially when the machine is my hppa a500. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Frans Pop wrote: I could see myself agreeing if you can come up with an implementation that only includes the beep for official builds (i.e. the addition of the beep is triggered by something in debian/rules). I don't feel that making daily builds diverge here (or in any way that is not strictly necessary) is a good idea. For one thing, blind users surely have as many reasons to use a daily build as anyone else. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Jérémy Bobbio, le Thu 17 Jul 2008 18:57:10 +0200, a écrit : For a version of the installer with full speech synthesis support, a custom image would probably be the _only_ option. One of the other things that we have discussed (but not it full length) with Samuel after his talk during the last DebConf was about trying to add AT-SPI or other GTK+ accessibility features in the graphical installer. One of the issue we thought about was about the image size. So, it would be another aspect that would benefit from a dedicated image. Yep. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Frans Pop [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: (No need to CC me On Thursday 17 July 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: I do agree it is annoying, but as Sebastien said, it's just about installation. I've asked a few people, they said they wouldn't complain if it could help others. It's annoying for me amongst others. I do huge numbers of installations and even more boots of the installer during development. For development we could put a variable to disable it, and it wouldn't hurt since it would help blind people a lot. I share the Samuel feeling that it would be good. Samuel could provide an image for us to test and see how bad it would be. -- O T A V I OS A L V A D O R - E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] UIN: 5906116 GNU/Linux User: 239058 GPG ID: 49A5F855 Home Page: http://otavio.ossystems.com.br - Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Hello, There was no answer from debian-boot on this request: Samuel Thibault, le Thu 19 Jun 2008 11:08:32 +0100, a écrit : It is a bit hard for blind people to know exactly when they can type boot options for the installer. It would be helpful that syslinux beeps when it is ready to get input. What do people think about it? So would people consider it a problem that debian installation CDs make a beep at syslinux stage by default? It's just a matter of adding a ^G in the menu title for instance. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
On Thursday 17 July 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote: Samuel Thibault, le Thu 19 Jun 2008 11:08:32 +0100, a écrit : It is a bit hard for blind people to know exactly when they can type boot options for the installer. It would be helpful that syslinux beeps when it is ready to get input. What do people think about it? So would people consider it a problem that debian installation CDs make a beep at syslinux stage by default? It's just a matter of adding a ^G in the menu title for instance. IIRC correctly it has been discussed before and was rejected as to annoying for the normal case. I must say I agree with that. Especially as there's not that much magic involved in booting from CD: just waiting for some time and hitting enter should also work. There is no real difference between there was no beep and I hit enter but nothing happened. In both cases a disabled person is going to need help from others to figure out the cause. Here is one reference, but I think it came up more recently too: http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2002/12/msg00323.html We do use currently use beeps for installs to embedded devices to signal when systems are ready for login over SSH, but in that case there are a lot more steps to go through which 1) take longer and 2) may fail (such as network configuration). And most importantly: those are dedicated images and thus do not annoy other users. Cheers, FJP signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Jason White, le Fri 20 Jun 2008 20:27:17 +1000, a écrit : On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 04:40:14PM +0100, Samuel Thibault wrote: Unfortunately a lot of BIOSes won't like that ; they will consider that the keyboard is broken. Even if the key is pressed after the POST beep, but before the boot loader has been read from the installation medium? A lot of machines don't have a POST beep. My laptop for instance. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 11:38:29AM +0100, Samuel Thibault wrote: A lot of machines don't have a POST beep. My laptop for instance. I thought that might be a problem. Thanks. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 04:40:14PM +0100, Samuel Thibault wrote: Unfortunately a lot of BIOSes won't like that ; they will consider that the keyboard is broken. Even if the key is pressed after the POST beep, but before the boot loader has been read from the installation medium? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
ST == Samuel Thibault [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ST Hello, It is a bit hard for blind people to know exactly when ST they can type boot options for the installer. It would be ST helpful that syslinux beeps when it is ready to get input. What ST do people think about it? Sure, it is easy good solution. Best -- Jan Buchal Tel: (00420) 24 24 86 008 Mob: (00420) 608023021 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Hi, It is a bit hard for blind people to know exactly when they can type boot options for the installer. It would be helpful that syslinux beeps when it is ready to get input. What do people think about it? It'd be convenient, yes. In case people do not want an unconditional beep, would it be possible to configure syslinux so that keeping a well known combination of key pressed while booting would make it beep when it's ready to accept options. Sébastien. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Sébastien Hinderer, le Thu 19 Jun 2008 17:34:03 +0200, a écrit : In case people do not want an unconditional beep, would it be possible to configure syslinux so that keeping a well known combination of key pressed while booting would make it beep when it's ready to accept options. Unfortunately a lot of BIOSes won't like that ; they will consider that the keyboard is broken. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Personally, I'd like to see a configuration option in the installation, like a tasksel option that would reconfigure Debian for the visually impared, running through the system and setting up what it can. The only problem, beyond writing such a script, is accessing it if you're blind. grins Was arguing with the Orca folks about a universal accessability setup for Linux and creating a standard that anyone could activate with a keystroke or command.. It took the RFC's to standardize internet communications, but we don't have any kind of standard for others to follow or support. As things are, all we can hope to do is come along behind everyone else and try to keep a totalled wreck running. Orca's off to a good start, but still has no standard for the rest of the world to stand behind. Michael On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 11:08:32AM +0100, Samuel Thibault wrote: It is a bit hard for blind people to know exactly when they can type boot options for the installer. It would be helpful that syslinux beeps when it is ready to get input. What do people think about it? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Gaijin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Personally, I'd like to see a configuration option in the installation, like a tasksel option that would reconfigure Debian for the visually impared, running through the system and setting up what it can. The only problem, beyond writing such a script, is accessing it if you're blind. grins The activation problem is exactly what this thread is about. In some cases, autodetection of what the user needs is possible, in particular, if a user uses a USB braille display, we can enumerate the USB bus and find out if a braille device is connect, then start the appropriate daemon and so on. But in the case of software speech or old-style serial braille displays, it is not really possible to autodetect that the user wants to use such features. How we currently do this is to have users type well-known options to the bootloader prompt blindly. But for this to work better, it would be great to alter the user when the prompt is actually displayed and the machine is ready to take commands. Was arguing with the Orca folks about a universal accessability setup for Linux and creating a standard that anyone could activate with a keystroke or command.. I am afraid Orca is not really directly related to this thread. It took the RFC's to standardize internet communications, but we don't have any kind of standard for others to follow or support. Well, as explained above, USB offers at least a kind of standard for braille display users to enable autodetection. I am not sure how a standard can help us with the problem at hand. We are trying to define one, by implementing a workable soltuion, that is hopefully copied by others in the future. As things are, all we can hope to do is come along behind everyone else and try to keep a totalled wreck running. I kind of know your grief since I am a blind linux user since 11 years now. Believe me, it was much worse in the past, things are really getting somewhere, dont loose the hope :-). Besides, we are talking about installing a completely new operating system without sighted help, if I remember correctly, thats something that until today never has worked under Windows. As a blind Windows user, you are always dependant on someone else (sighted) to install your OS and get the assistive technologies going. I consider it a really big thing that at least for some groups of users, this is already possible with the current Debian release. -- CYa, ⡍⠁⠗⠊⠕ | Debian Developer URL:http://debian.org/ .''`. | Get my public key via finger mlang/[EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : | 1024D/7FC1A0854909BCCDBE6C102DDFFC022A6B113E44 `. `' `- URL:http://delysid.org/ URL:http://www.staff.tugraz.at/mlang/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Hello, Mario Lang, le Thu 19 Jun 2008 23:40:38 +0200, a écrit : The activation problem is exactly what this thread is about. BTW, for the long term, I was also thinking about unconditional preseeding of debconf from any USB stick which is insertd. That would permit us to have a webpage which according to the user's needs produces a preseed file which people can just put on a USB stick which they insert before booting the CD. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Make syslinux beep?
Gaijin, le Thu 19 Jun 2008 13:31:34 -0700, a écrit : Personally, I'd like to see a configuration option in the installation, like a tasksel option that would reconfigure Debian for the visually impared, running through the system and setting up what it can. That is already discussed in bug #471410: tasksel-data: Add an Accessibility task. Feel free to contribute in that thread. This one is, as Mario said, about activation. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
