Re: base-config CVS relocated
On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 12:21:35AM +0100, Sven Luther wrote: On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 09:03:05AM +1100, Martin Michlmayr wrote: * Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003-12-16 18:40]: Yeah, the difference is that the other maintainers can upload a fixed package, and one or two days later, the package will be in the daily builds. While for the powerpc case : 1) the upload will be held in the NEW queue for an indefinite time. You can (and should) just upload a fixed 2.4.22 package in the meantime. Upload a fixed package ? How ? Well, maybe i should upload a version of the package forgetting everything i did on the package for the past two month, and the 4 different versions, and upload the package, without any guarantee that the real package will ever be going to be accepted ? Sorry, i don't feel like this. There is a package in the NEW queue, it fixes the bug and much more, either it is ok, and it should be accepted, or it is not, and it should be rejected with the reasons for it. I can't look in the NEW queue ( at least I don't know how ) but your reply reads likes a clumsy way to say there _are_ fixed packages uploaded. Geert Stappers -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: base-config CVS relocated
On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 08:08:19AM +0100, Geert Stappers wrote: On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 12:21:35AM +0100, Sven Luther wrote: On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 09:03:05AM +1100, Martin Michlmayr wrote: * Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003-12-16 18:40]: Yeah, the difference is that the other maintainers can upload a fixed package, and one or two days later, the package will be in the daily builds. While for the powerpc case : 1) the upload will be held in the NEW queue for an indefinite time. You can (and should) just upload a fixed 2.4.22 package in the meantime. Upload a fixed package ? How ? Well, maybe i should upload a version of the package forgetting everything i did on the package for the past two month, and the 4 different versions, and upload the package, without any guarantee that the real package will ever be going to be accepted ? Sorry, i don't feel like this. There is a package in the NEW queue, it fixes the bug and much more, either it is ok, and it should be accepted, or it is not, and it should be rejected with the reasons for it. I can't look in the NEW queue ( at least I don't know how ) Well, i think you can look at the files there, but not look at their content. but your reply reads likes a clumsy way to say there _are_ fixed packages uploaded. Yep, they are, 3 different versions of them, which closes many of the bugs against the package, and provide support for more than just pmac powerpc. They are in the NEW queue since over one month, and will probably stay there at eternam or something such, which is why i have stopped doing d-i work since over a month (well, i was also busy with other stuff and such, but still, d-i is a priority). Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: base-config CVS relocated
* Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003-12-17 00:21]: You can (and should) just upload a fixed 2.4.22 package in the meantime. Upload a fixed package ? How ? Well, maybe i should upload a version of How? By making an update to the current version in unstable, use a NMU scheme so your uploads waiting to be processed have a higher version than this fix. -- Martin Michlmayr [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: base-config CVS relocated
On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 09:35:19PM +1100, Martin Michlmayr wrote: * Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003-12-17 00:21]: You can (and should) just upload a fixed 2.4.22 package in the meantime. Upload a fixed package ? How ? Well, maybe i should upload a version of How? By making an update to the current version in unstable, use a NMU scheme so your uploads waiting to be processed have a higher version than this fix. Mmm, yes, that i could do. I wonder however if this will not cause problems with the other packages in the NEW queue. I was thinking of making a sarge security upload trough sarge's testing-proposed-updates. That said, i would really like it a lot better if the the packages in the NEW queue would get processed, or at least if i get some reason as to why they are not. The standard NEW message tells it gets processed once per week, which is undoubtly a lie, and should better be changed to something more truthfull. And then there is the problem with mail going to ftp-masters just disappearing, without even an aknowledgement. So there is really _nothing_ i can do about this. Which makes me wonder if my work for debian is still welcome, and also if Branden's proposal of more strict control on the delegates would not have been best. Altough i doubt that it would have changed anything in this case. Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: base-config CVS relocated
On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 10:17:15PM +0100, Geert Stappers wrote: Or why not to gnu arch? which implementation? tla? if you want to answer this question with yes, go ahead and add fundemental error checking first. Let me guess: We are only 18 days before a new release, so there is no time for tool switch. hu? without a working infrastructure? bastian -- The joys of love made her human and the agonies of love destroyed her. -- Spock, Requiem for Methuselah, stardate 5842.8 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: base-config CVS relocated
On Tue, Dec 16, 2003 at 12:26:07PM -0500, Joey Hess wrote: version of cvs2svn which know about the release tags, otherwise it will produce many useless copies as tags. Those are cheap copies, I don't see the problem. the information about the releases are lost. if we want to use that, please not on alioth as they don't provide http access. True they do have that turned off at least until some bug is fixed. It's easy to use ssh anyhow. i speak about svn, not cvs. Bastian -- The face of war has never changed. Surely it is more logical to heal than to kill. -- Surak of Vulcan, The Savage Curtain, stardate 5906.5 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: base-config CVS relocated
Bastian Blank wrote: On Tue, Dec 16, 2003 at 12:26:07PM -0500, Joey Hess wrote: version of cvs2svn which know about the release tags, otherwise it will produce many useless copies as tags. Those are cheap copies, I don't see the problem. the information about the releases are lost. Nope, the tags are preserved. I've converted packages like debconf and debhelper, which have hundreds of release tags, to svn with no data loss. if we want to use that, please not on alioth as they don't provide http access. True they do have that turned off at least until some bug is fixed. It's easy to use ssh anyhow. i speak about svn, not cvs. Yes, so do I. svn+ssh:// -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: base-config CVS relocated
Am Die, den 16.12.2003 schrieb Sven Luther um 18:40: 2) linux-kernel-di need to be fixed to make use of it. What needs fixing there? Gaudenz -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: base-config CVS relocated
On Tue, Dec 16, 2003 at 08:37:27PM +0100, Gaudenz Steinlin wrote: Am Die, den 16.12.2003 schrieb Sven Luther um 18:40: 2) linux-kernel-di need to be fixed to make use of it. What needs fixing there? The modules are not in the kernel-image package, but in the kernel-module package, and there need to be subarch suppport to extract the different kernels from their corresponding kernel-image packages. There need also to be support for building the builtin initrd, from the initrd with the modules from the kernel-modules, and using the stuff in the kernel-build packages. Finally, we need to fix the floppy target for old world and miboot, which in turn needs the powerpc-small configuration, which is also sitting in the NEW queue. BTW, you didn't tell me if enabling the CONFIG_RTC option in your kernel will break pmac booting or not. Friendly, Svne Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: base-config CVS relocated
* Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003-12-16 18:40]: Yeah, the difference is that the other maintainers can upload a fixed package, and one or two days later, the package will be in the daily builds. While for the powerpc case : 1) the upload will be held in the NEW queue for an indefinite time. You can (and should) just upload a fixed 2.4.22 package in the meantime. -- Martin Michlmayr [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: base-config CVS relocated
On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 09:03:05AM +1100, Martin Michlmayr wrote: * Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003-12-16 18:40]: Yeah, the difference is that the other maintainers can upload a fixed package, and one or two days later, the package will be in the daily builds. While for the powerpc case : 1) the upload will be held in the NEW queue for an indefinite time. You can (and should) just upload a fixed 2.4.22 package in the meantime. Upload a fixed package ? How ? Well, maybe i should upload a version of the package forgetting everything i did on the package for the past two month, and the 4 different versions, and upload the package, without any guarantee that the real package will ever be going to be accepted ? Sorry, i don't feel like this. There is a package in the NEW queue, it fixes the bug and much more, either it is ok, and it should be accepted, or it is not, and it should be rejected with the reasons for it. Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: base-config CVS relocated
On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 10:17:15PM +0100, Geert Stappers wrote: On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 09:06:29PM +0100, Daniele Nicolodi wrote: On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 02:39:54PM -0500, Joey Hess wrote: I've moved base-config's CVS repository to alioth.debian.org. I'd encourage anyone who wants to to set up an alioth account if you do not already have one, and if you mail me your account username, I'll add you to the committers of base-config (Petter is already added as co-admin). Even non debian developers can sign up. Why not migrate to subversion ? Or why not to gnu arch? Let me guess: We are only 18 days before a new release, Indeed we are ? Joeyh, what do you think of the powerpc kernel issue, if the plan is still have a beta2 in 18 days, and nothing happens in this week about the powerpc kernel hold hostage in the NEW queue, i will upload a version of the powerpc kernel on friday which works on my box, that is which will contain the chrp kernel, and not the newworld pmac one. At least some discussion need to happen on this, i am sick of the current situation. And even worse, the current powerpc kernel still contains the local root exploit, while the version in the NEW queue contains the fixed version. Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: base-config CVS relocated
Am Die, den 16.12.2003 schrieb Sven Luther um 10:36: Indeed we are ? Joeyh, what do you think of the powerpc kernel issue, if the plan is still have a beta2 in 18 days, and nothing happens in this week about the powerpc kernel hold hostage in the NEW queue, i will upload a version of the powerpc kernel on friday which works on my box, that is which will contain the chrp kernel, and not the newworld pmac one. Please don't do that. IMO this would be very bad DD behaviour as this would break all current installs of your package (they are all powermacs). This can not be justified with your situation as the ones affected by this breakage would be your users and they are in no way responsible for the current situation. You have to find a way to handle this without harming your users. At least some discussion need to happen on this, i am sick of the current situation. And even worse, the current powerpc kernel still contains the local root exploit, while the version in the NEW queue contains the fixed version. I can in part understand your anger. But I don't think that the way you are dealing with it will work. Probably debian-boot is not the right list to discuss your problem, because it's not really debian-boot related (although it would help d-i development if the package would be accepted). I'm not sure, but I think there has not been any processing of new packages since the compromise. This would at least explain why your package is not processed now. gaudenz -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: base-config CVS relocated
On Tue, Dec 16, 2003 at 12:05:20PM +0100, Gaudenz Steinlin wrote: Am Die, den 16.12.2003 schrieb Sven Luther um 10:36: Indeed we are ? Joeyh, what do you think of the powerpc kernel issue, if the plan is still have a beta2 in 18 days, and nothing happens in this week about the powerpc kernel hold hostage in the NEW queue, i will upload a version of the powerpc kernel on friday which works on my box, that is which will contain the chrp kernel, and not the newworld pmac one. Please don't do that. IMO this would be very bad DD behaviour as this Yep, i know. Not worse than the current treatment though. Also, consider, that i cannot test the packages currently in the archive, since i don't own pmac hardware, and can't thus in concience not declare releasable the package currently in the archive and which i have no way of testing. Furthermore, these packages contain the local root exploit, and there is no way i will let the beta2 be released with them. Also, joeyh doesn't seem to care, and don't even mention this problem when making status updates and such, my mails to ftp-masters go unanswered since more than a month, and aj, who is also a ftp-master if i am not wrong, denied on irc having knowledge of it. elmo on the other hand had not the time to respond to me and tell me what he reproaches to my packages, but has time to make comments to joeyh behind my back. would break all current installs of your package (they are all powermacs). This can not be justified with your situation as the ones affected by this breakage would be your users and they are in no way responsible for the current situation. Sure, but at least i will be able to test it, and the users in question would fill bug reports, which i could tag d-i and RC, instead of everyone just plainly ignoring the problem and making as if nothing did happen. You have to find a way to handle this without harming your users. There is no way. The only way to change this is for the ftp-masters to take their responsabilities, and at least respond to me with some information on how i can fix their concerns. This has not happened, and for all i know, the ftp-masters are MIA or something. Or maybe i am still in elmo's killfile and he doesn't read emails from me or something. And if myself alone, am considered as a second zone DD, not worth of at least a reply to a serious email concerning this matter, i need the support of the other powerpc users on that, and that something happens. It is really sad that this kind of thing can only advance with public rants and threats, but this seems to be the way things work in debian. I guess i will be voting for Branden in next year's DPL election after all. At least some discussion need to happen on this, i am sick of the current situation. And even worse, the current powerpc kernel still contains the local root exploit, while the version in the NEW queue contains the fixed version. I can in part understand your anger. But I don't think that the way you are dealing with it will work. Probably debian-boot is not the right No way to deal with it will work. So i need to take extreme measures for things to happen, and not just be greated by this wall of silence i am faced with until now. list to discuss your problem, because it's not really debian-boot related (although it would help d-i development if the package would be Well, joeyh wants a new beta2 to be released on december 28. What do you think will happen, either there will be no powerpc support, or we will release a beta installer containing a kernel with a known local root exploit. This is unacceptable. This is also well a debian-boot issue, which is way i included joeyh personnaly as recipient of the email. Also, i see it already happening, on the eve of christmas, my package will be entering the archive, and instead of passing nice christmas with our family we will be hurrying to fixing things in order for it to be ready for the december 28 date. So, joeyh, please, if there is not something happening on this front quickly, consider one of these courses of action : 1) drop support for powerpc in the beta2 (and explain why). 2) postpone the beta2 date to something more realistic with the (lack of) schedule of the ftp-masters. In particular not a date which will force us to pass christmas doing package work while we could have done it anytime in this past month and half or so. accepted). I'm not sure, but I think there has not been any processing of new packages since the compromise. This would at least explain why your package is not processed now. Sure, but this is no excuse. I have seen aj in irc, and he told me he was not busy with the compromise, but denied knowing about the problem, altough he should have two emails from me in his Inbox about it. So clearly, not all ftp-masters are busy with it, and furthermore, the package was in the archive for at least 2-3 weeks prior to the
Re: base-config CVS relocated
On Tue, Dec 16, 2003 at 12:42:04PM +0100, Sven Luther wrote: It is really sad that this kind of thing can only advance with public rants and threats, but this seems to be the way things work in debian. Are you sure that your rants don't just make fewer and fewer people interested in listening to you, including the people you need to listen to you? Contrary to what you say, I normally find ranting extremely counterproductive in Debian, and I've never had any trouble with ftpmaster delay. Presumably this is due to the natural human fact that there's less resistance to dealing with people who make themselves easy to deal with: if I know that doing something is going to unleash a huge storm of ranting then I will put it off and do something else no matter what names you call me (and getting personal and calling me names *will* just make me inclined to put it off even further because it's obviously going to be too painful). You say that ranting worked the last time. Don't you see that if you encourage this by doing things when people rant at you, then you're letting yourself in for being ranted at a lot? From the point of view of reducing one's personal level of stress, it makes perfect sense to put off people who rant. Ranting about *this* might help you let off steam but it's hardly going to solve the actual problem. Welcome to human nature. Work with it, don't fight it. The ftpmasters are not demons, but if you persist in treating them all the time as if they are then you can hardly expect priority service. Cheers, -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: base-config CVS relocated
On Tue, Dec 16, 2003 at 02:37:12PM +, Colin Watson wrote: On Tue, Dec 16, 2003 at 12:42:04PM +0100, Sven Luther wrote: It is really sad that this kind of thing can only advance with public rants and threats, but this seems to be the way things work in debian. Are you sure that your rants don't just make fewer and fewer people interested in listening to you, including the people you need to listen to you? Contrary to what you say, I normally find ranting extremely Well, i follow the example of what happened some 6-8 month from now. I filled a bug against ftp.debian.org, CCed to the RM asking for the removal of two or three packages from testing which were blocking 40+ packages to enter testing, and which the ocaml maintainer team has discussed was the best solution to handle this. I got _no_ response for a long time, and the situation got only cleared when i complained for a week or so on debian-devel, for something that could have been handled by simply responding to me. The same thing happens now. I wrote to the RM, to the ftp-masters, because i heard elmo has made reservations to joeyh about this (why ever not to me directly, i don't understand), giving explanation of what i did, the reasons behind it, explaining the pro and cons of the solution i choose and asking for advice on how to best resolve the reservations if they where. Later i mailed aj directly, as RM, and i think Gaudenz or another powerpc d-i person also mailed ftp-masters about this. This was over a month ago now, and i have had absolutely no return, even worse, aj, who is one of the ftp-masters as well as the RM denied being informed of it, which makes me wonder what happened to those mails. Did they get redirected to /dev/null or something ? I sincerely doubt they got read, and i see no other way to making these people aware of the problem they don't seem to care about than making a tantrum on the public lists. This is not like it should be, it is a sad state, and which seriously makes me wonder if my contribution to debian is welcome, or if i should let everything fall, and consecrate my time to projects with more respect to the contributions of individual developers. counterproductive in Debian, and I've never had any trouble with ftpmaster delay. Presumably this is due to the natural human fact that there's less resistance to dealing with people who make themselves easy to deal with: if I know that doing something is going to unleash a huge Sure, that is way the ftp-masters cannot be dealt with, there is no way to engaging conversation with them, they don't respond. So what was your point ? And it is not like i don't know that they are busy, i waited for more than a month, and got absolutely zero feedback. And you well know that mostly mails that are in your mailbox after more than a month will probably just be forgotten. storm of ranting then I will put it off and do something else no matter what names you call me (and getting personal and calling me names *will* just make me inclined to put it off even further because it's obviously going to be too painful). Did i call anyone names ? Please provide quotes if you think so, and i will apologize for them, but seriously, i doubt that is the case. The worse i said is that i feel threated like shit, but this is to describe my feeling, hardly an insult to anyone. You say that ranting worked the last time. Don't you see that if you encourage this by doing things when people rant at you, then you're letting yourself in for being ranted at a lot? From the point of view of Don't you see that the ftp-masters, by not providing timely feedback, are encouraging this kind of behavior ? And we are not speaking of a random unimportant stuff here. This issue is needed for 1) continued work on the d-i support on powerpc and 2) to close the security exploit in the powerpc _kernel_ package. It is inadmissible that this is not replied to in a timely fashion, and if they are concerns, they should be voiced to _me_ and not spoken to some mostly uninvolved third party behind my back. reducing one's personal level of stress, it makes perfect sense to put off people who rant. Ranting about *this* might help you let off steam but it's hardly going to solve the actual problem. And, please, tell me what solution i have ? Patiently waiting has not brought me anything. Welcome to human nature. Work with it, don't fight it. The ftpmasters are not demons, but if you persist in treating them all the time as if they are then you can hardly expect priority service. No, i am perfectly aware that they have lot of job to do, that they do great work and all this, but would it be so hard to ask them that they provide feedback to me instead of this wall of silence ? Especially if they have time to voice these concerns to third party, then why not to me too ? After all, i am the maintainer of the package, and should know the reason that pushed me to make the change needed better
Re: base-config CVS relocated
Bastian Blank wrote: If we want to do that without droping the history, we need a special version of cvs2svn which know about the release tags, otherwise it will produce many useless copies as tags. Those are cheap copies, I don't see the problem. if we want to use that, please not on alioth as they don't provide http access. True they do have that turned off at least until some bug is fixed. It's easy to use ssh anyhow. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: base-config CVS relocated
On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 02:39:54PM -0500, Joey Hess wrote: I've moved base-config's CVS repository to alioth.debian.org. I'd encourage anyone who wants to to set up an alioth account if you do not already have one, and if you mail me your account username, I'll add you to the committers of base-config (Petter is already added as co-admin). Even non debian developers can sign up. Why not migrate to subversion ? Ciao -- Daniele -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: base-config CVS relocated
Daniele Nicolodi wrote: On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 02:39:54PM -0500, Joey Hess wrote: I've moved base-config's CVS repository to alioth.debian.org. I'd encourage anyone who wants to to set up an alioth account if you do not already have one, and if you mail me your account username, I'll add you to the committers of base-config (Petter is already added as co-admin). Even non debian developers can sign up. Why not migrate to subversion ? Trying to keep the pain down to a minimum, and my co-developer doesn't want to use svn yet. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: base-config CVS relocated
On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 09:06:29PM +0100, Daniele Nicolodi wrote: On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 02:39:54PM -0500, Joey Hess wrote: I've moved base-config's CVS repository to alioth.debian.org. I'd encourage anyone who wants to to set up an alioth account if you do not already have one, and if you mail me your account username, I'll add you to the committers of base-config (Petter is already added as co-admin). Even non debian developers can sign up. Why not migrate to subversion ? Or why not to gnu arch? Let me guess: We are only 18 days before a new release, so there is no time for tool switch. Ciao -- Daniele Geert Stappers -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: base-config CVS relocated
On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 09:06:29PM +0100, Daniele Nicolodi wrote: Why not migrate to subversion ? If we want to do that without droping the history, we need a special version of cvs2svn which know about the release tags, otherwise it will produce many useless copies as tags. if we want to use that, please not on alioth as they don't provide http access. bastian -- There's coffee in that nebula! -- Capt. Kathryn Janeway, Star Trek: Voyager, The Cloud signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: base-config CVS relocated
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Joey, At 15 Dec 03 19:39:54 GMT, Joey Hess wrote: I've moved base-config's CVS repository to alioth.debian.org. I'd encourage anyone who wants to to set up an alioth account if you do not already have one, and if you mail me your account username, I'll add you to the committers of base-config (Petter is already added as co-admin). Even non debian developers can sign up. I'm interesting about maintaining ja.po and improving routine around CJK terminal. My account is kmuto on alioth. Could you add me to committer? Thanks, - -- Kenshi Muto [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.5.8 http://mailcrypt.sourceforge.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAj/eo9cACgkQQKW+7XLQPLHqcwCg2tDmJsoEx3L+Gzsj6MggC3EL mnsAoMtc9iNWaf+l1r779FUcclPbgjxB =On4y -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
