Re: Mediation not Politics (Re: removal of svenl from the project)
On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 10:57:42PM -0500, C Shore wrote: Abstract Thanks for your message, this indeed sums up my feeling very well. As for mediation, seeing the thing go into an impass, i asked Andreas Barth (on the technical comittee) to mediate on thursday/friday, and went into offline land, trying to forget the issue. He sais he had no time immediately, but would look into it. This whole issue still blew up because of a single harmless comment i made on wednesday, and my insatisfaction for jonas not crediting my work in solving the bug, which is a sad thing. Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: removal of svenl from the project
Le Mer 15 Mars 2006 03:01, Andres Salomon a écrit : Hi, I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed from the project. The process is outlined here: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2005/08/msg5.html , and I have already completed step 1. I strongly oppose to such an expulsion. what is wrong with you ? are you gone completely insane or what ? I know Sven may sometimes be a bit overpresent in some trolls, he also may answer too quick, without having read the mail he answers to correctly enough. But AFAICT, I've always seen him apologies when he did so (I can provide links if you can't believe me…). If you want to expulse any DD that taunts a release manager, a ftp-master or a debian sys-admin, hey, please begin with the recent thread about the NEW queue beeing stuck again. There is a lot of DDs that need you to rule about them. The project is really going insane. -- ·O· Pierre Habouzit ··O[EMAIL PROTECTED] OOOhttp://www.madism.org pgpyGpPRRghdD.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: removal of svenl from the project
Le mardi 14 mars 2006 à 21:01 -0500, Andres Salomon a écrit : Hi, I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed from the project. If this is a joke, it's not funny. I happen to prefer Andrew Suffield's humour. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette/\./\ : :' : [EMAIL PROTECTED] `. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED] `- Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom
Re: removal of svenl from the project
Pierre Habouzit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know Sven may sometimes be a bit overpresent in some trolls, he also=20 may answer too quick, without having read the mail he answers to=20 correctly enough. But AFAICT, I've always seen him apologies when he=20 did so (I can provide links if you can't believe me). Sven has insulted me and accused me of engaging in a conspiracy against him and his employers in order to cover up my own incompetence on more than one occasion without any hint of an apology. -- Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: removal of svenl from the project
On Tue, Mar 14, 2006, Andres Salomon wrote: Hi, Hi! I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed from the project. Hahaha oh wow. You got it the wrong way, you should only do that _after_ someone posts http://zoy.org/~sam/ftwcal.jpeg to d-d-a. Now I have no other choice but to report you to the mailing-list behavioural police. Sorry. Sam. -- DUMBLEDORE DIES IN THE NEW HARRY POTTER BOOK SEVERUS SNAPE IS THE HALF BLOOD PRINCE BILL WEASLEY MARRIES FLEUR DELACOUR AND HIS FACE IS MUTILATED (attention : spoilers) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: removal of svenl from the project
On Tue, Mar 14, 2006 at 09:01:09PM -0500, Andres Salomon wrote: I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed from the project. The process is outlined here: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2005/08/msg5.html, and I have already completed step 1. This is ridiculous. It seems to become a favourite pasttime in debian to ask for exclusion of people with whom someone has a personal quarrel. So, if you are interested in seconding the expulsion request, please let me know. Please do not turn this into a flamewar; I don't care about your reasons why people should not be forcefully removed from the project. Those who feel this way probably have not had to work w/ Sven on a team for the past 2 years. I have been working with Sven on the debian ocaml team for six years. He was the founder of that team, and for a long time among the most active and productive members. Every time I had the occassion to collaborate with him discussions were constructive and fruitful. -Ralf. -- Ralf Treinen Laboratoire Spécification et Vérification CNRS, École Normale Supérieure de Cachan, INRIA Futurs http://www.lsv.ens-cachan.fr/~treinen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: removal of svenl from the project
Mike Bird [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your accusation fails to allege sufficient facts to constitute an allegation of defamation. The facts have previously been discussed elsewhere. I replied merely to point out that Sven does not always apologise for his behaviour. Rather than wasting list bandwidth, please consult a solicitor. I have absolutely no interest in starting legal action against Sven. And rather than wasting /my/ bandwidth, would you please not Cc me on replies? -- Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: removal of svenl from the project
On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 11:25 +0100, Pierre Habouzit wrote: Le Mer 15 Mars 2006 03:01, Andres Salomon a écrit : Hi, I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed from the project. The process is outlined here: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2005/08/msg5.html , and I have already completed step 1. I strongly oppose to such an expulsion. It amazes me that people oppose expulsion, but are perfectly happy to allow the DAMs to decide whether or not a NM is to be let into the project. Why do we trust the DAM's judgement in one scenario but not the other? what is wrong with you ? are you gone completely insane or what ? I'm tired of discussions immediately degrading into personal insults. I know Sven may sometimes be a bit overpresent in some trolls, he also may answer too quick, without having read the mail he answers to correctly enough. But AFAICT, I've always seen him apologies when he did so (I can provide links if you can't believe me…). That is not the case. Furthermore, apologizing repeatedly does not make his behavior right. If you want to expulse any DD that taunts a release manager, a ftp-master or a debian sys-admin, hey, please begin with the recent thread about the NEW queue beeing stuck again. There is a lot of DDs that need you to rule about them. This is not about taunting a release manager, an ftp master, or a DAM. This is about repeated aggressive, childish behavior, against a number of people. Sven seems to anger almost everyone he works closely with. The examples I provided are just the tip of the iceberg. I thought I explained this in my followup email[0]. [0] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2006/03/msg00621.html signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: removal of svenl from the project
#include hallo.h * Andres Salomon [Tue, Mar 14 2006, 09:01:09PM]: harm upon another developer in a public forum, and then a week later publically insults/taunts a developer (one of the Release Managers, even), behind his back. This is incredibly childish, aggressive behavior, and should not be tolerated within the project (IMO). He were slandering somebody and others were listening/reading without telling him that the behaviour is impolite? Well, then maybe it shows us all (or at least the readers) in a bad light. Even then, you have to deal with such offence in a more contructive way, definitely not by stupid expulsion process. Heck, even our current DPL may not be there if I would have acted like you few years ago (I did not forget comments like Ah, Eduard Bloch joined the club of debian-legal experts, hahaha and similar stupid rants found in IRC logs but, hey, people can change, and people can learn, and kicking someone out without giving at least one second chance is equally childish). And if I would have acted like a hot potato, I would have gone the path of Adrian Bunk at the time. Eduard. -- Auf ähnlichem Niveau bewegen sich die Gehältern von Webdesignern, die ebenfalls zu den Verlierern unter den *Informatikern* zählen. -- Unispiegel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: removal of svenl from the project
The DAM has accepted the request; please send seconds directly to [EMAIL PROTECTED], cc'ing me as well. For the people who seem to think that there are more constructive ways of dealing w/ this issue rather than the expulsion process: http://squishy.cc/svenl.txt This is a lot from two weeks ago, right after Sven threatened Jonas. If he had actually changed his behavior sometime in the past two years, rather than just viewing every discussion as a battle that must be won at all costs, I would not be making this request. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: removal of svenl from the project
On Tue, Mar 14, 2006 at 09:01:09PM -0500, Andres Salomon wrote:
Some might argue that we should just kick him from the channel and
remove his commit access to the debian-kernel project, but that does not
solve the problem of him abusing other teams, as well as his abusive
mailing list posts. He also {co-,}maintains some 47 packages, which
means users for those packages will have to deal w/ him as well. I
I don't know if you've a clue about Sven's behaviour in teams other then
debian-kernel. I do have a clue about Sven's behaviour in the
debian-ocaml-maint team, which he founded and which I joined something
like 5 years ago. That team collaboratively maintains some 30 packages
now and Sven is still an active part of it.
He has always been a valuable contributor of the team, happy to hacking
and to discuss with other people in order to reach common goals.
Discussing with him may be sometimes difficult, that's true, but hey: if
we are supposed to be a community, we need to learn to accept each other
peculiarities! In my experience, Sven has always done more good than
harm to the debian-ocaml-maint team.
So far, I have never took the time to study the detail of the expulsion
process, so sorry if this mail is inappropriate. But be sure that I will
do everything I can as a DD to stop Sven's expulsion.
Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -*- Computer Science PhD student @ Uny Bologna, Italy
[EMAIL PROTECTED],debian.org,bononia.it} -%- http://www.bononia.it/zack/
If there's any real truth it's that the entire multidimensional infinity
of the Universe is almost certainly being run by a bunch of maniacs. -!-
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Re: removal of svenl from the project
Pierre Habouzit writes: I strongly oppose to such an expulsion. So do I. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: removal of svenl from the project
Le Mer 15 Mars 2006 15:05, Andres Salomon a écrit : On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 11:25 +0100, Pierre Habouzit wrote: Le Mer 15 Mars 2006 03:01, Andres Salomon a écrit : Hi, I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed from the project. The process is outlined here: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2005/08/msg5.h tml , and I have already completed step 1. I strongly oppose to such an expulsion. It amazes me that people oppose expulsion, but are perfectly happy to allow the DAMs to decide whether or not a NM is to be let into the project. Why do we trust the DAM's judgement in one scenario but not the other? what is wrong with you ? are you gone completely insane or what ? I'm tired of discussions immediately degrading into personal insults. just so that we are clear, I consider your first mail a personal insult already, especially given that your decision is based on irc logs. Using the irc logs of a pissed person for the ground of an expulsion process is either (I'll let you choose): * a complete lack of dignity ; * the result of a fascist mind (so that I can win my Godwin point) ; * that you are a saint, since you feel comfortable with blaming people that release pressure on IRC. sarcasm oh and btw, as you noted it, I attacked you personnaly, maybe you should begin a procedure to expulse me. /sarcasm -- ·O· Pierre Habouzit ··O[EMAIL PROTECTED] OOOhttp://www.madism.org pgpv3p8SA8Y4u.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: removal of svenl from the project
On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 05:00, Matthew Garrett wrote: Pierre Habouzit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know Sven may sometimes be a bit overpresent in some trolls, he also=20 may answer too quick, without having read the mail he answers to=20 correctly enough. But AFAICT, I've always seen him apologies when he=20 did so (I can provide links if you can't believe me). Sven has insulted me and accused me of engaging in a conspiracy against him and his employers in order to cover up my own incompetence on more than one occasion without any hint of an apology. Matthew, Your accusation fails to allege sufficient facts to constitute an allegation of defamation. Rather than wasting list bandwidth, please consult a solicitor. --Mike Bird -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: removal of svenl from the project
On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 01:00:19PM +, Matthew Garrett wrote: Pierre Habouzit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know Sven may sometimes be a bit overpresent in some trolls, he also=20 may answer too quick, without having read the mail he answers to=20 correctly enough. But AFAICT, I've always seen him apologies when he=20 did so (I can provide links if you can't believe me). Sven has insulted me and accused me of engaging in a conspiracy against him and his employers in order to cover up my own incompetence on more than one occasion without any hint of an apology. Well, this was on the ubuntu irc channel, when you where all presenting excuses for not having applied the patch that allowed the pegasos to be fully supported on ubuntu, even though i did so one month before the release, and nobody commented on that bug. I was a bit short on you, because you started to make noise about the reason for the refusal being a #include being wrongly placed in the patch, and a printk that was not strictly necessary, which i think for someone like you or the ubuntu kernel team is a joke reason not to even do a single reply on the bug report. Then you can add the fact that the ubuntu kernel people are making noise on public conferences about unifying the kernel (based on their stuff) for all debian and debian based distros, while nobody at the debian kernel team is aware of that, and contrary to when fabbionne was the ubuntu kernel maintainer, ben collins hardly communicates with us. I gave up on trying to communicate with the ubuntu kernel folk about pegasos support since then, and when i learned they dropped the mkvmlinuz support with a nobody should be using oldworlds by now comment, which was extremely clueless as oldworlds don't use it, only ibm chrp, pseries and the pegasos, weeks after genesi became a ubuntu partner, i decided to let this pass by the hierarchical way instead. I note also that Andres Salomon is now, to a degree, involved with the ubuntu folk, which is ok with me, but may color his request with regard to the above. I also remember that you where much less than curteous and extremely patronizing when i proposed myself to handle the ubuntu powerpc kernels, a year or so ago, when i still believed that cooperation was possible, and i never heard you apologize for that, so should we expulse you for both being offensive to me (and having gone over to the ennemy :) ? So, please tell me when i have said anything such to you in the context of debian, i would be very surprised about it. Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: removal of svenl from the project
On 3/14/06, Andres Salomon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed from the project. The process is outlined here: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2005/08/msg5.html, and I have already completed step 1. [ Andres, don't get me wrong but in the next time you start a thread like this one doing cross-posting, can you set the reply-to for -devel, for example ? ] Please Andres, the expulsion process is the last mile. Are we there yet ? It seems that the project is splitting in two groups basically: The people that wants to work together and release Etch, and the people that with a reason or not wants to see it delayed. The minute after the release team announces that we're going to delay our next release, we will stop with these weird threads and keep arguing that we're all volunteers and are doing our best. oh, the humanity! I'm asking myself what's behind all that ? Ubuntu ? Probably no. Subconcious fear to delivery in time ? Probably yes. Stop thinking about who you're going to ask to be expelled next and spend some time considering not my words, but just Etch. Thanks in advance, -- stratus
Re: removal of svenl from the project
On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 05:56:05PM +0100, Sven Luther wrote: I was a bit short on you, because you started to make noise about the reason for the refusal being a #include being wrongly placed in the patch, and a printk that was not strictly necessary, which i think for someone like you or the ubuntu kernel team is a joke reason not to even do a single reply on the bug report. I hadn't replied to the bug report because I wasn't involved in the Ubuntu kernel at the point when it was filed, so I didn't reply there. When you brought my attention to it, I pointed out two issues that you could fix in seconds. I had none of the hardware in question, and didn't want to spend time trying to work out if there was some subtle reason for the code being there. There was certainly no effort to sabotage your platform, and I haven't heard any sort of apology for your accusations. I also remember that you where much less than curteous and extremely patronizing when i proposed myself to handle the ubuntu powerpc kernels, a year or so ago, when i still believed that cooperation was possible, and i never heard you apologize for that, so should we expulse you for both being offensive to me (and having gone over to the ennemy :) ? I have absolutely no recollection of this happening, and can't find any references to you talking to me about it in my logs. You appeared to spend some time arguing with Thibaut Varene - are you sure you're not confused? Friendly, -- Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: removal of svenl from the project
On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 05:56:10PM +, Matthew Garrett wrote: On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 05:56:05PM +0100, Sven Luther wrote: I was a bit short on you, because you started to make noise about the reason for the refusal being a #include being wrongly placed in the patch, and a printk that was not strictly necessary, which i think for someone like you or the ubuntu kernel team is a joke reason not to even do a single reply on the bug report. I hadn't replied to the bug report because I wasn't involved in the Ubuntu kernel at the point when it was filed, so I didn't reply there. When you brought my attention to it, I pointed out two issues that you could fix in seconds. I had none of the hardware in question, and didn't want to spend time trying to work out if there was some subtle reason for the code being there. There was certainly no effort to sabotage your platform, and I haven't heard any sort of apology for your accusations. Well, i think that benc comment about nobody should use oldworld's by now is particularly clueless, and you in particular did know better than that. So, please stay to reality, and my maybe unjudicious use of the word sabotage was dedicated to this second issue. Now, really, you should all cool down, if one has to guard every word he says in order to not offend folk, this is going to be no fun at all. And we elected branden as DPL even :) I also remember that you where much less than curteous and extremely patronizing when i proposed myself to handle the ubuntu powerpc kernels, a year or so ago, when i still believed that cooperation was possible, and i never heard you apologize for that, so should we expulse you for both being offensive to me (and having gone over to the ennemy :) ? I have absolutely no recollection of this happening, and can't find any references to you talking to me about it in my logs. You appeared to spend some time arguing with Thibaut Varene - are you sure you're not confused? I may indeed be confused about this, if so i apologize. Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: removal of svenl from the project
On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 09:40:15AM -0500, Andres Salomon wrote: The DAM has accepted the request; please send seconds directly to [EMAIL PROTECTED], cc'ing me as well. For the people who seem to think that there are more constructive ways of dealing w/ this issue rather than the expulsion process: http://squishy.cc/svenl.txt This is a lot from two weeks ago, right after Sven threatened Jonas. If he had actually changed his behavior sometime in the past two years, /me remembers having threatened jonas last thursday, so Andres clearly seems to live in some kind of parallel world :) rather than just viewing every discussion as a battle that must be won at all costs, I would not be making this request. Yeah, well. I waited almost three month for something to happen on that bug report, and nothing ever came of it. I also note that jonas is not excempt from the fault, and that other had had trouble dealing with him, even if you didn't know that when you made your hasty judgement. Friendly, still, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: removal of svenl from the project
also sprach Gustavo Franco [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006.03.15.1512 +0100]: It seems that the project is splitting in two groups basically: The people that wants to work together and release Etch, and the people that with a reason or not wants to see it delayed. The minute after the release team announces that we're going to delay our next release, we will stop with these weird threads and keep arguing that we're all volunteers and are doing our best. oh, the humanity! I'm asking myself what's behind all that ? Ubuntu ? Probably no. Subconcious fear to delivery in time ? Probably yes. Stop thinking about who you're going to ask to be expelled next and spend some time considering not my words, but just Etch. Thank you! -- Please do not send copies of list mail to me; I read the list! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer and author: http://debiansystem.info `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system Invalid/expired PGP (sub)keys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver! security at micro$oft: how do we secure a billion dollar profit? signature.asc Description: Digital signature (GPG/PGP)
Re: removal of svenl from the project
On 14/03/2006 Andres Salomon wrote: Sven's behavior has always been combative (and some might argue hostile), but this is beyond what is acceptable. He threatens bodily harm upon another developer in a public forum, and then a week later publically insults/taunts a developer (one of the Release Managers, even), behind his back. This is incredibly childish, aggressive behavior, and should not be tolerated within the project (IMO). don't you think that this proposal is childish as well? it could be argued that it is even guardianship and censorship. ... jonas signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: removal of svenl from the project
Andres Salomon [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I strongly oppose to such an expulsion. It amazes me that people oppose expulsion, but are perfectly happy to allow the DAMs to decide whether or not a NM is to be let into the project. Why do we trust the DAM's judgement in one scenario but not the other? I oppose to his (Sven) expulsion too. Well, I don't trust all actions of DAM's neither of anybody else. I think each action need to be judge by time. I think we all do mistakes. I agree that Sven sometimes is very rudy like a lot of other DDs here and there. That isn't a reason to remove him from the project. I personally dislike that situation of Jonas and Sven and do thing that those things shouldn't happen but we also need to look all good work that Sven already did in past and continue to do in a lot of areas of Debian et all. I work with him in some projects (Parted and MOL) and never had problems to deal with him. We always discussed all things without problems. -- O T A V I OS A L V A D O R - E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] UIN: 5906116 GNU/Linux User: 239058 GPG ID: 49A5F855 Home Page: http://www.freedom.ind.br/otavio - Microsoft gives you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. pgpGdYRskdDw2.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: removal of svenl from the project
martin f krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: also sprach Gustavo Franco [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006.03.15.1512 +0100]: It seems that the project is splitting in two groups basically: The people that wants to work together and release Etch, and the people that with a reason or not wants to see it delayed. The minute after the release team announces that we're going to delay our next release, we will stop with these weird threads and keep arguing that we're all volunteers and are doing our best. oh, the humanity! I'm asking myself what's behind all that ? Ubuntu ? Probably no. Subconcious fear to delivery in time ? Probably yes. Stop thinking about who you're going to ask to be expelled next and spend some time considering not my words, but just Etch. Thank you! Thank you! That's what we all are (should) be here to do. -- O T A V I OS A L V A D O R - E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] UIN: 5906116 GNU/Linux User: 239058 GPG ID: 49A5F855 Home Page: http://www.freedom.ind.br/otavio - Microsoft gives you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: removal of svenl from the project
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Dear Friends, First of all i apologise for my poor english (portuguese :-)) I follow de dev lists of debian for several months now, my knowlege in linux whas not so good so i never applyed to be a developper and also my time isnt much :-(. (maybe i will change that soon) Being a pleasent system (IMHO The Best), Debian picked my attention for the software but """also for the ideals""". I probably shouldnt be wryting to a list where nobody knows me but here it goes Now really people, i dot think matters like this being discussed is in the interess of anyone. One because he gets mad to everyone and says thing not so pleasent (dont think im trying to excuse that :-)), other because they feal like my wife when i "accidentally lol" brake my keyboard against the wall, and start to think that nobody loves them etc etc etc Friends, please keep in mind the following: - -YOU ALL are important has you are, with your deffects and qualityes. - -Linux world needs more people not kick out anyone!!! Can whe really afford that ?? - -Community is some times problems and if you dont like it, please work on your own not with anybody else. This being said i will ask everyone the following: PLEASE keep up the good work and correct bugs, enjoy developing new things, help hus linux lovers to bring people from the "dark side" of it the "bright side" ;-) and dont whaist you time with this matters. On behalf off the good relations, I as a user, ask for forgiveness to anyone who think he is offended with sven' s words or acts. Also ask to sven to join a fighting club :-) all that anger may be in your profit. ;-) Seriously i understand you all, i am also a little bit rough some times but that doesnt mean that i am not a great guy!!! Sorry for interrupting your work and conversatiosn with this, Friendly Jos David Sven Luther escreveu: On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 09:40:15AM -0500, Andres Salomon wrote: The DAM has accepted the request; please send seconds directly to [EMAIL PROTECTED], cc'ing me as well. For the people who seem to think that there are more constructive ways of dealing w/ this issue rather than the expulsion process: http://squishy.cc/svenl.txt This is a lot from two weeks ago, right after Sven threatened Jonas. If he had actually changed his behavior sometime in the past two years, /me remembers having threatened jonas last thursday, so Andres clearly seems to live in some kind of parallel world :) rather than just viewing every discussion as a battle that must be won at all costs, I would not be making this request. Yeah, well. I waited almost three month for something to happen on that bug report, and nothing ever came of it. I also note that jonas is not excempt from the fault, and that other had had trouble dealing with him, even if you didn't know that when you made your hasty judgement. Friendly, still, Sven Luther -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEGGO1BdVvWvDxTXkRAv5rAKCAlUc/aacxTMBt6pTPkcPUE8I9PACgmrYK xMlTNLpg5Fegw3qKa3S5GTk= =uGuO -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: removal of svenl from the project
On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 10:59:46AM -0500, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: snip/ So far, I have never took the time to study the detail of the expulsion process, so sorry if this mail is inappropriate. But be sure that I will do everything I can as a DD to stop Sven's expulsion. Here another DD that doesn't has time to study the expulsion process. Right now is my approach to wait for a voting for the actual expulsion and then vote to keep Sven Luther _in_ the project. Let me know if I need to do something else to keep luther a DD. Geert Stappers P.S. Cc me about this energy drain issue -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mediation not Politics (Re: removal of svenl from the project)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Abstract Please can't we all just get along? Ok, I'm not quite that naive, but I would like to see (or proof of previous attempts at) conciliation before such a highly political approach as a formal expulsion request to a personnel issue. Further comments follow, Andres Salomon wrote: I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed from the project. The process is outlined here: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2005/08/msg5.html, and I have already completed step 1. IANADDY but I have followed some of the mailing lists for a while and this is ludicrous. Sven's behavior has always been combative (and some might argue hostile), but this is beyond what is acceptable. He threatens bodily Sven is certainly not quiet, however from what I have seen of type of response his suggestions and posts get, he is justifiably frustrated. I am personally surprised he hasn't gotten disgusted with the project and left, or greatly reduced participation, of his own volition, as others, most recently 'Joey', have done. Perhaps it is for the same reason I will be helping with the debtags tagging (regardless of whether or not that can lead to being a dd), namely believing in the ideals of the Debian Project. I think he feels personally attacked by rejections of his ideas, but I haven't seen anything other than initial knee jerk rejections of his ideas either, even ones that later are accepted. He also does something that I wouldn't, which is to be a highly active participant in the public forums. Personally I prefer to spend time working on projects, and leave mailing lists and such as tertiary or lower in importance, however a preference is all that is, not The Way Things Should Be(tm). I think mediation by a neutral third party would be useful here, and would be far more constructive than attempting to expel Sven. With the exception of the quote Andres posted, I haven't seen sven be abusive (emotional, yes, abusive, no) and I've seen a lot that of responses and behaviour on the parts of developers like joeyh that would tend to piss me off too. (The difference is that I'd probably just say 'the h*ll with you', and work where I was appreciated). I don't think Sven is anywhere near perfect, but I haven't seen any attempt at a peaceable solution either. Perhaps my history doesn't go far enough back. If Sven was willing to accept the DPL as a mediator, would those who are complaining about him also do so? And, what, besides disliking his communication style, are the beefs with Sven? And if that is the primary beef, what would 'make it better' without eliminating his ability to argue for his ideas (which seem to get dismissed out of hand, but to this outsider seem to make sense)? Has there been any attempt to work with Sven on his communication style, or, as seems to me, has it been primarily hostility on the other side as well? Please can't we all just get along? Ok, I'm not quite that naive, but I would like to see (or proof of previous attempts at) conciliation before such a highly political approach as a formal expulsion request to a personnel issue. Cheers, Daniel -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEGOI1eVDHer2Nu1QRAoF9AJ9E34fj3Ktxbmn1N6/BZoTdY6n+8QCcCl0s H8UBsx0cYE2+5AYcJTjyUxE= =7cpw -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
removal of svenl from the project
Hi,
I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed
from the project. The process is outlined here:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2005/08/msg5.html,
and I have already completed step 1.
Step #2 requires the support of some 15 developers. I am attempting to
find people that are interested in publically seconding my explusion
request. If you are interested, please email me. Remember that your
request will be public, and you will have to provide reasons why you
feel that his removal will benefit the project. I'm looking both for
people who have had conflicts w/ him (logs are always good, too), as
well as people who have just seen the effects of his actions (ie,
unbiased opinions).
Sven has always been a nuisance to deal w/, but up until now I have not
considered this action. In the past two weeks, the following comments
made by him have changed my mind:
2006-03-07:
svenl jonas: i hope we never again meet in public, because i promise i
will hit you if i do.
2006-03-14:
svenl vorlon: so, you think it is correct of jonas to mention
traveller and thanking him for investigating the issue, while fully
ignoring my own contribution ?
-- vorlon ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) has left
#debian-kernel
svenl yeah, coward.
Sven's behavior has always been combative (and some might argue
hostile), but this is beyond what is acceptable. He threatens bodily
harm upon another developer in a public forum, and then a week later
publically insults/taunts a developer (one of the Release Managers,
even), behind his back. This is incredibly childish, aggressive
behavior, and should not be tolerated within the project (IMO).
Some might argue that we should just kick him from the channel and
remove his commit access to the debian-kernel project, but that does not
solve the problem of him abusing other teams, as well as his abusive
mailing list posts. He also {co-,}maintains some 47 packages, which
means users for those packages will have to deal w/ him as well. I
believe it is better if he is removed from the project altogether, as he
damages it more than he helps.
So, if you are interested in seconding the expulsion request, please let
me know. Please do not turn this into a flamewar; I don't care about
your reasons why people should not be forcefully removed from the
project. Those who feel this way probably have not had to work w/ Sven
on a team for the past 2 years.
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Re: removal of svenl from the project
On Tue, 2006-03-14 at 21:01 -0500, Andres Salomon wrote: [...] Sven has always been a nuisance to deal w/, but up until now I have not considered this action. In the past two weeks, the following comments made by him have changed my mind: 2006-03-07: svenl jonas: i hope we never again meet in public, because i promise i will hit you if i do. 2006-03-14: svenl vorlon: so, you think it is correct of jonas to mention traveller and thanking him for investigating the issue, while fully ignoring my own contribution ? -- vorlon ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) has left #debian-kernel svenl yeah, coward. A few clarifications/comments based upon what people have said: 1) These quotes are examples of his destructive behavior. One can find plenty more in the mailing lists. The ones I supplied here are the ones that made *me* decide to take action. 2) Yes, I have tried talking to him. After a number of blowups on the debian-kernel list, myself and a number of kernel team members have talked to him to calm him down (and in some cases getting him to apologize). The behavior he displays happens repeatedly, despite warnings and requests that he behave himself. The rest of the IRC log from when he threatened Jonas is basically me attempting to show Sven how destructive his behavior is. The fact that, a week later, he continues w/ this behavior (after years of doing the same thing) is why you're seeing this request. 3) If he was in the NM queue, and you were his AM, would you accept him after seeing how he behaves? If not, why is that so different from kicking him out of the project (other than asking that he be banned from the lists, but this is a request of the list masters, not the DAM)? In that regards, I have a wonderful quote from Sven: I am not in the AM queue, so i can be as rude as i want. [0] I presume he meant the NM queue. [0] http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/07/msg00967.html signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: removal of svenl from the project
On Tue, Mar 14, 2006 at 09:01:09PM -0500, Andres Salomon wrote: Hi, I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed from the project. The process is outlined here: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2005/08/msg5.html, and I have already completed step 1. Thanks very much Andres, this is really appreciated. /me leaves in disgust. Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
