Bug#1038903: initscripts: orphan-sysvinit-scripts needs to be a prerequisite, not optional.
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023, Matthew Vernon wrote: >> Nothing for orphan-sysvinit-scripts, which *really* surprises me, >> as I’m certain we discussed this earlier. > > You may be remembering bullseye? After quite a lot of wrangling, we got a > short > note added to the release notes[0] and installation guide[1] both of which > basically pointed to the wiki[2]. Might be. But maybe we should figure out a text to state that o-s-s is now really needed for some packages, perhaps enumerate those that have it in bookworm and hint at that there are more coming in trixie, then try to get that added to the release notes while not too many people have already updated. > I don't recall any discussion about bookworm release notes; I think if you'd > have asked me I would have said that Recommends: should be enough for most > cases! I think these are orthogonal; Recommends definitely fully suffices on the package level, but docs are usually still helpful (plus we can tell people to just RTFM ☻☺). bye, //mirabilos -- Infrastrukturexperte • tarent solutions GmbH Am Dickobskreuz 10, D-53121 Bonn • http://www.tarent.de/ Telephon +49 228 54881-393 • Fax: +49 228 54881-235 HRB AG Bonn 5168 • USt-ID (VAT): DE122264941 Geschäftsführer: Dr. Stefan Barth, Kai Ebenrett, Boris Esser, Alexander Steeg /⁀\ The UTF-8 Ribbon ╲ ╱ Campaign against Mit dem tarent-Newsletter nichts mehr verpassen: ╳ HTML eMail! Also, https://www.tarent.de/newsletter ╱ ╲ header encryption!
Bug#1038903: initscripts: orphan-sysvinit-scripts needs to be a prerequisite, not optional.
Hi, On 23/06/2023 02:11, Thorsten Glaser wrote: Nothing for orphan-sysvinit-scripts, which *really* surprises me, as I’m certain we discussed this earlier. You may be remembering bullseye? After quite a lot of wrangling, we got a short note added to the release notes[0] and installation guide[1] both of which basically pointed to the wiki[2]. Hmph. It took me about 20 minutes to find where the source repo for the release notes is and orphan-sysvinit-scripts indeed shows up nowhere in there. Wasn’t it discussed on the mailing list? It really ought to be there. I don't recall any discussion about bookworm release notes; I think if you'd have asked me I would have said that Recommends: should be enough for most cases! I don't feel inclined to try and get a change into the release notes, since it was a lot of effort for bullseye, but happy to eyeball a patch if someone else feels keen. Sorry. Regards, Matthew [0] https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/amd64/release-notes/ch-whats-new.en.html#inits-xx [1] https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/amd64/ch06s05.en.html#idm2887 [2] https://wiki.debian.org/Init#Changing_the_init_system_-_at_installation_time
Bug#1038903: initscripts: orphan-sysvinit-scripts needs to be a prerequisite, not optional.
Hi, sysvinit-core in bookworm Recommends: orphan-sysvinit-scripts ; have you told apt to ignore recommends? I think I agree with others who have said that it wouldn't be appropriate for all sysvinit systems to install orphan-sysvinit-scripts (which would warrant a Depends: ); obviously that might change if we end up with more init scripts in it. I agree that a note in the release notes might be warranted (it may or may not be possible to get them updated now). Regards, Matthew
Bug#1038903: initscripts: orphan-sysvinit-scripts needs to be a prerequisite, not optional.
Hi, On 23/06/2023 01:24, Mason Loring Bliss wrote: On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 02:14:40AM +0200, Thorsten Glaser wrote: The choice to use a nōn-default setup (using rsyslogd at all in bookworm) is up to the local admin. It's not obvious from the release notes that rsyslog is deprecated. Maybe it's too late now for Bookworm, but this speaks to Debian's suitability as a platform for services. Frankly it makes Devuan seem more appealing, for folks with any sort of mental investment in Debian. The release-notes do have a section titled "5.1.7. Changes to system logging"[0] which I think is reasonably clear that the default logging system is moving away from rsyslog. It's definitely an oversight that orphan-sysvinit-scripts hasn't been mentioned in the release notes; but sysvinit-core does Recommend: orphan-sysvinit-scripts, so I would expect a typical installation to have installed them for you. Did that not work, or have you configured apt to skip Recommends? Regards, Matthew [0] https://www.debian.org/releases/bookworm/amd64/release-notes/ch-information.en.html#changes-to-system-logging
Bug#1038903: initscripts: orphan-sysvinit-scripts needs to be a prerequisite, not optional.
On Thu, 22 Jun 2023, Mason Loring Bliss wrote: >What part of the release notes are you referring to? It might be useful to >reference that specifically, in addition to the pointer. > >Nothing relevant is obvious here for rsyslogd: [-] >It's not obvious from the release notes that rsyslog is deprecated. Maybe It is. §5.1.7. > https://www.debian.org/releases/bookworm/amd64/release-notes/index.en.html Nothing for orphan-sysvinit-scripts, which *really* surprises me, as I’m certain we discussed this earlier. Hmph. It took me about 20 minutes to find where the source repo for the release notes is and orphan-sysvinit-scripts indeed shows up nowhere in there. Wasn’t it discussed on the mailing list? It really ought to be there. bye, //mirabilos -- Infrastrukturexperte • tarent solutions GmbH Am Dickobskreuz 10, D-53121 Bonn • http://www.tarent.de/ Telephon +49 228 54881-393 • Fax: +49 228 54881-235 HRB AG Bonn 5168 • USt-ID (VAT): DE122264941 Geschäftsführer: Dr. Stefan Barth, Kai Ebenrett, Boris Esser, Alexander Steeg /⁀\ The UTF-8 Ribbon ╲ ╱ Campaign against Mit dem tarent-Newsletter nichts mehr verpassen: ╳ HTML eMail! Also, https://www.tarent.de/newsletter ╱ ╲ header encryption!
Bug#1038903: initscripts: orphan-sysvinit-scripts needs to be a prerequisite, not optional.
On Thu, 22 Jun 2023, Mason Loring Bliss wrote: On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 01:30:30AM +0200, Thorsten Glaser wrote: On Thu, 22 Jun 2023, David Griffith wrote: This was prompted when I found that rsyslog stopped working on Bullseye when upgraded to Bookworm. What sort of depenency would you suggest to implement the following? “Read the release notes.” What part of the release notes are you referring to? It might be useful to reference that specifically, in addition to the pointer. Nothing relevant is obvious here for rsyslogd: https://www.debian.org/releases/bookworm/amd64/release-notes/index.en.html We probably want to avoid nasty surprises. I haven't upgraded my servers to Bookworm yet, but scanning the release notes, nothing there would indicate to me that my logging services were about to break. Exactly. This problem started off as a violation of the basic rule of least surprise. When I upgrade an operating system, I don't want to see fundamental services not come back. Stuff like that should be fixed before release. And if found after release, a fix should not be delayed until the next major release. David's suggestion of requiring orphan-sysvinit-scripts seems like a sensible solution that will prevent outages. Let's posit, for instance, that there's a hospital somewhere using Debian for some of their infrastructure, and running sysvinit because they require reliable systems. It would seem responsible to not arbitrarily let logging break on an upgrade. That's not what people expect from Debian. While a life-and-death system shouldn't be running a standard OS at all, but instead something realtime, that shouldn't cause anyone to pooh-pooh this issue. No otherwise reliable operating system (RT or not) should have things silently stop working without alerting the admin/user of said things. -- David Griffith d...@661.org
Bug#1038903: initscripts: orphan-sysvinit-scripts needs to be a prerequisite, not optional.
On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 02:14:40AM +0200, Thorsten Glaser wrote: > The choice to use a nōn-default setup (using rsyslogd at all > in bookworm) is up to the local admin. It's not obvious from the release notes that rsyslog is deprecated. Maybe it's too late now for Bookworm, but this speaks to Debian's suitability as a platform for services. Frankly it makes Devuan seem more appealing, for folks with any sort of mental investment in Debian. This is all fairly disappointing. -- Mason Loring Bliss ma...@blisses.orgEwige Blumenkraft! (if awake 'sleep (aref #(sleep dream) (random 2))) -- Hamlet, Act III, Scene I signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Bug#1038903: initscripts: orphan-sysvinit-scripts needs to be a prerequisite, not optional.
On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 01:30:30AM +0200, Thorsten Glaser wrote: > On Thu, 22 Jun 2023, David Griffith wrote: > > > This was prompted when I found that rsyslog stopped working on Bullseye when > > upgraded to Bookworm. What sort of depenency would you suggest to implement > > the following? > > “Read the release notes.” What part of the release notes are you referring to? It might be useful to reference that specifically, in addition to the pointer. Nothing relevant is obvious here for rsyslogd: https://www.debian.org/releases/bookworm/amd64/release-notes/index.en.html We probably want to avoid nasty surprises. I haven't upgraded my servers to Bookworm yet, but scanning the release notes, nothing there would indicate to me that my logging services were about to break. David's suggestion of requiring orphan-sysvinit-scripts seems like a sensible solution that will prevent outages. Let's posit, for instance, that there's a hospital somewhere using Debian for some of their infrastructure, and running sysvinit because they require reliable systems. It would seem responsible to not arbitrarily let logging break on an upgrade. That's not what people expect from Debian. -- Mason Loring Bliss ma...@blisses.org Ewige Blumenkraft! awake ? sleep : random() & 2 ? dream : sleep; -- Hamlet, Act III, Scene I signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Bug#1038903: initscripts: orphan-sysvinit-scripts needs to be a prerequisite, not optional.
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023, David Griffith wrote: > More verbosely: "Which package should have a dependency upon > orphan-sysvinit-scripts to ensure that if sysvinit is used that rsyslog > doesn't > break?" None because that’s not the scope of dependencies in Debian. The choice to use a nōn-default setup (using rsyslogd at all in bookworm) is up to the local admin. Besides, bookworm is released, no chance to add dependencies like that now. bye, //mirabilos -- Infrastrukturexperte • tarent solutions GmbH Am Dickobskreuz 10, D-53121 Bonn • http://www.tarent.de/ Telephon +49 228 54881-393 • Fax: +49 228 54881-235 HRB AG Bonn 5168 • USt-ID (VAT): DE122264941 Geschäftsführer: Dr. Stefan Barth, Kai Ebenrett, Boris Esser, Alexander Steeg /⁀\ The UTF-8 Ribbon ╲ ╱ Campaign against Mit dem tarent-Newsletter nichts mehr verpassen: ╳ HTML eMail! Also, https://www.tarent.de/newsletter ╱ ╲ header encryption!
Bug#1038903: initscripts: orphan-sysvinit-scripts needs to be a prerequisite, not optional.
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023, Thorsten Glaser wrote: On Thu, 22 Jun 2023, David Griffith wrote: This was prompted when I found that rsyslog stopped working on Bullseye when upgraded to Bookworm. What sort of depenency would you suggest to implement the following? “Read the release notes.” Or use inetutils-syslogd ;-) I did not ask a question for which that could be the answer. More verbosely: "Which package should have a dependency upon orphan-sysvinit-scripts to ensure that if sysvinit is used that rsyslog doesn't break?" -- David Griffith d...@661.org
Bug#1038903: initscripts: orphan-sysvinit-scripts needs to be a prerequisite, not optional.
On Thu, 22 Jun 2023, David Griffith wrote: > This was prompted when I found that rsyslog stopped working on Bullseye when > upgraded to Bookworm. What sort of depenency would you suggest to implement > the following? “Read the release notes.” Or use inetutils-syslogd ;-) bye, //mirabilos -- Infrastrukturexperte • tarent solutions GmbH Am Dickobskreuz 10, D-53121 Bonn • http://www.tarent.de/ Telephon +49 228 54881-393 • Fax: +49 228 54881-235 HRB AG Bonn 5168 • USt-ID (VAT): DE122264941 Geschäftsführer: Dr. Stefan Barth, Kai Ebenrett, Boris Esser, Alexander Steeg /⁀\ The UTF-8 Ribbon ╲ ╱ Campaign against Mit dem tarent-Newsletter nichts mehr verpassen: ╳ HTML eMail! Also, https://www.tarent.de/newsletter ╱ ╲ header encryption!
Bug#1038903: initscripts: orphan-sysvinit-scripts needs to be a prerequisite, not optional.
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jun 2023, David Griffith wrote:
of no use unless sysvinit is being used and its absence leads to random
packages (some important) not working at all; orphan-sysvinit-scripts
should be a prerequisite.
Huh? No. Currently, orphan-sysvinit-scripts doesn’t contain init scripts
for anything I use on my Debian systems (all sysvinit) for example, and
only one (avahi) for something that’s installed but I don’t use myself,
it is only from a dependency.
This is entirely optional.
This was prompted when I found that rsyslog stopped working on Bullseye
when upgraded to Bookworm. What sort of depenency would you suggest to
implement the following?
if (init == sysvinit && rsyslog has installed) {
install(orphan-sysvinit-scripts);
}
--
David Griffith
d...@661.org
Bug#1038903: initscripts: orphan-sysvinit-scripts needs to be a prerequisite, not optional.
On Thu, 22 Jun 2023, David Griffith wrote: >of no use unless sysvinit is being used and its absence leads to random >packages (some important) not working at all; orphan-sysvinit-scripts >should be a prerequisite. Huh? No. Currently, orphan-sysvinit-scripts doesn’t contain init scripts for anything I use on my Debian systems (all sysvinit) for example, and only one (avahi) for something that’s installed but I don’t use myself, it is only from a dependency. This is entirely optional. bye, //mirabilos -- Infrastrukturexperte • tarent solutions GmbH Am Dickobskreuz 10, D-53121 Bonn • http://www.tarent.de/ Telephon +49 228 54881-393 • Fax: +49 228 54881-235 HRB AG Bonn 5168 • USt-ID (VAT): DE122264941 Geschäftsführer: Dr. Stefan Barth, Kai Ebenrett, Boris Esser, Alexander Steeg /⁀\ The UTF-8 Ribbon ╲ ╱ Campaign against Mit dem tarent-Newsletter nichts mehr verpassen: ╳ HTML eMail! Also, https://www.tarent.de/newsletter ╱ ╲ header encryption!
Bug#1038903: initscripts: orphan-sysvinit-scripts needs to be a prerequisite, not optional.
Package: initscripts Version: 3.06-4 Severity: important When doing an upgrade of a Bullseye machine to Bookworm, I noticed that rsyslog stopped writing log entries. There was no immediate clue as to what was going on. After poking around online, I found Bug#1037039 which said that rsyslog's init script was removed and that orphan-sysvinit-scripts would fix this problem. Since that package is of no use unless sysvinit is being used and its absence leads to random packages (some important) not working at all; orphan-sysvinit-scripts should be a prerequisite. -- System Information: Debian Release: 12.0 APT prefers stable-security APT policy: (500, 'stable-security'), (500, 'stable') Architecture: amd64 (x86_64) Kernel: Linux 6.1.0-9-amd64 (SMP w/2 CPU threads; PREEMPT) Locale: LANG=en_US.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8), LANGUAGE not set Shell: /bin/sh linked to /usr/bin/dash Init: sysvinit (via /sbin/init) Versions of packages initscripts depends on: ii sysv-rc 3.06-4 ii sysvinit-utils 3.06-4 Versions of packages initscripts recommends: ii e2fsprogs 1.47.0-2 ii psmisc 23.6-1 initscripts suggests no packages. -- Configuration Files: /etc/rc.local changed [not included] -- no debconf information
