Bug#345067: [Yaird-devel] Bug#345067: ide-geenric inclusion even if it doesn't exist.
On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 12:33:12AM +, Stephen Gran wrote: This one time, at band camp, Sven Luther said: On Mon, Jan 30, 2006 at 01:11:44PM +0100, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 15:20:34 +0100 Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i, wearing my powerpc debian kernel maintainer hat, know that it is not needed on powerpc. This indicates that you are talking about a single kernel build - the one provided by the kernel team, not powerpc kernels in general. Jonas, can you please explain me how you can come to the conclusion that ide-generic is *NEEDED* on powerpc, if there is at least one kernel config which does not have it and works perfectly ? I think you are just arguing for the sake of arguing, and failing to even try to understand the issue at hand ? Oh look, why are you still fighting about this? It seems to me that the This is also what i don't understand. Jonas is finding (bad) excuses not to fix the issue. real problem is that the via module doesn't declare a relation to ide-generic in situations where it actually does need it. Why not fix Nope, the bug is that for some obscure reason on some obscure hardware there seems to be a problem with via-ide not working if you don't have ide-generic loaded. Instead of investigating this and fixing it properly in the kernel, a hack was added to yaird, which broke the power/pegasos case, which works fine without ide-generic, and thus doesn't need it. What i don't understand though, is since it is shown that via-ide works on powerpc without ide-generic, whyever is jonas making such a fuss over applying the 3 line fix which simply disable the hack on powerpc. And when we discussed this face to face, he didn't even seem to be able to consider it, and only mentioned that it 'may' break other stuff, without being able to show me even a remotely possible example of such breakage, and when i tried explaining this to it, he went emotional and almost violent (and we were even asked to leave the room), so i don't think this has a solution. the kernel, so that yaird doesn't have to bend over backwards? Not that I really care either way, but it does seem to me to be cleaner to fix the underlying problem rather than adding increasingly nonsensical special case code somewhere else to work around it. Indeed, but in the meantime, we have a hack in yaird which breaks powerpc. Yaird is a general tool for ramdisk generation. Not fitting in with some grand plan of the kernel team possible is brokenness of the tool, but not an RC bug. So thanks for lowering the status, Sven. Sure, i guess this means my vote will have to go for no more supporting yaird as default ramdisk generator in these conditions. And, so? The problem goes away, nobody uses yaird anymore, and so nobody needs to care about its brokeness, or the inability of the maintainer to even consider trivial fixes like this one without weeks and month of flamewar. And could we please now look at this as a non-urgent matter? I still suspect that your proposed fix, Sven, can hurt in cases other than the specific one you know and care about. This opinion of yours will only be acceptable if you can bring me a single use case scenario where this is the case. It will hurt in the case that one day, someone will build a kernel image on ppc that needs ide-generic, and they will have no idea why yaird And, please tell me what scenario can mean that ide-generic is *NEEDED*, since we have proven with the current powerpc kernel that it is not *NEEDED*. It may be usefull or possible to build it, but not *NEEDED*. won't load the module even though they told it to. This kind of special case workaround is a hack. Fix it where the problem is instead of wasting all this energy. Bullshit, the loading of ide-generic is a hack in the first place, so i just disable the hack. I guess the proper fix would have been to conditionally use the original hack only on x86 in the first place, and then you could use this argument against the original hack. Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#345067: [Yaird-devel] Bug#345067: ide-geenric inclusion even if it doesn't exist.
On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 05:17:05AM +0100, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, 3 Feb 2006 01:13:49 +0100 Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I still suspect that your proposed fix, Sven, can hurt in cases other than the specific one you know and care about. This opinion of yours will only be acceptable if you can bring me a single use case scenario where this is the case. Frankly, i am sick of discussing this with you, since you fail to provide any kind of valid argument, apart from you believing it may hurt, while you have absolutely no idea of what you are speaking about, I have openly admitted that I am not certain about this issue. Well, and i am certain that it will not hurt, and more, i have given if not proof, at least some strong arguments which you have plainly ignored, and hiding behind your unsureness instead of fixing the issue. Please do not twist that around to me being certain that it _will_ hurt. And please tell me in which twisted world you leave where having an uninstallable kernel can in no case be equated to a world of hurt ? I still have the feeling that you are looking only at the kernels you build yourself for official Debian packaging, Sven. Remember, the ide-generic is only loaded because in some obscure case it was (apparently) really needed. This is not the case on powerpc, since we have a kernel which builds without ide-generic and works, which is proof enough that the ide-generic module is not needed, altough it may be used, but it is not needed. Please look in a dictionary, needed means that if you don't have it, something breaks, but then i excuse your lack of understanding the english language because you are no native speaker :) So I wait for others capable of judging this, preferrably upstream, Erik, (who is subscribed here). Yeah, but seems MIA since over a month, and didn't reply since i wrote him almost a week ago. I guess this means yaird is not maintained upstream anymore, and it is up to you to either take over more active maintainership, or admit you are not able to properly maintain yaird. In any case, this clearly shows that yaird cannot anymore be a candidate for default ramdisk generator for etch, which is sad in a way, unless someone more competent takes over the package. Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#345067: [Yaird-devel] Bug#345067: ide-geenric inclusion even if it doesn't exist.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, 3 Feb 2006 01:13:49 +0100 Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I still suspect that your proposed fix, Sven, can hurt in cases other than the specific one you know and care about. This opinion of yours will only be acceptable if you can bring me a single use case scenario where this is the case. Frankly, i am sick of discussing this with you, since you fail to provide any kind of valid argument, apart from you believing it may hurt, while you have absolutely no idea of what you are speaking about, I have openly admitted that I am not certain about this issue. Please do not twist that around to me being certain that it _will_ hurt. I still have the feeling that you are looking only at the kernels you build yourself for official Debian packaging, Sven. So I wait for others capable of judging this, preferrably upstream, Erik, (who is subscribed here). - Jonas - -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ - Enden er nær: http://www.shibumi.org/eoti.htm -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFD4tlBn7DbMsAkQLgRAjNLAJwK1Q04ccGgVXprwnJVL2Z6YTZrPgCdED3X 6J07oVtqZDzJYFu0XedQJbA= =e2u3 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Bug#345067: [Yaird-devel] Bug#345067: ide-geenric inclusion even if it doesn't exist.
On Mon, Jan 30, 2006 at 01:11:44PM +0100, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 15:20:34 +0100 Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i, wearing my powerpc debian kernel maintainer hat, know that it is not needed on powerpc. This indicates that you are talking about a single kernel build - the one provided by the kernel team, not powerpc kernels in general. Jonas, can you please explain me how you can come to the conclusion that ide-generic is *NEEDED* on powerpc, if there is at least one kernel config which does not have it and works perfectly ? I think you are just arguing for the sake of arguing, and failing to even try to understand the issue at hand ? Yaird is a general tool for ramdisk generation. Not fitting in with some grand plan of the kernel team possible is brokenness of the tool, but not an RC bug. So thanks for lowering the status, Sven. Sure, i guess this means my vote will have to go for no more supporting yaird as default ramdisk generator in these conditions. And could we please now look at this as a non-urgent matter? I still suspect that your proposed fix, Sven, can hurt in cases other than the specific one you know and care about. This opinion of yours will only be acceptable if you can bring me a single use case scenario where this is the case. Frankly, i am sick of discussing this with you, since you fail to provide any kind of valid argument, apart from you believing it may hurt, while you have absolutely no idea of what you are speaking about, and i have no understanding of you hurting the pegasos users just because you don't want to take the time to even consider the issue as you should. Remember, i do debian/pegasos support as RL job, and by your stubborness you hurt me in my day job and cost me money, so please understand the issue at hand and try to find a solution, instead of just trying to justify your inaction with circular arguments without fundation. It is a damn 3 line patch or so, and it would have taken you less time to investigate this than you lost in replying to this email. Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#345067: [Yaird-devel] Bug#345067: ide-geenric inclusion even if it doesn't exist.
This one time, at band camp, Sven Luther said: On Mon, Jan 30, 2006 at 01:11:44PM +0100, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 15:20:34 +0100 Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i, wearing my powerpc debian kernel maintainer hat, know that it is not needed on powerpc. This indicates that you are talking about a single kernel build - the one provided by the kernel team, not powerpc kernels in general. Jonas, can you please explain me how you can come to the conclusion that ide-generic is *NEEDED* on powerpc, if there is at least one kernel config which does not have it and works perfectly ? I think you are just arguing for the sake of arguing, and failing to even try to understand the issue at hand ? Oh look, why are you still fighting about this? It seems to me that the real problem is that the via module doesn't declare a relation to ide-generic in situations where it actually does need it. Why not fix the kernel, so that yaird doesn't have to bend over backwards? Not that I really care either way, but it does seem to me to be cleaner to fix the underlying problem rather than adding increasingly nonsensical special case code somewhere else to work around it. Yaird is a general tool for ramdisk generation. Not fitting in with some grand plan of the kernel team possible is brokenness of the tool, but not an RC bug. So thanks for lowering the status, Sven. Sure, i guess this means my vote will have to go for no more supporting yaird as default ramdisk generator in these conditions. And, so? And could we please now look at this as a non-urgent matter? I still suspect that your proposed fix, Sven, can hurt in cases other than the specific one you know and care about. This opinion of yours will only be acceptable if you can bring me a single use case scenario where this is the case. It will hurt in the case that one day, someone will build a kernel image on ppc that needs ide-generic, and they will have no idea why yaird won't load the module even though they told it to. This kind of special case workaround is a hack. Fix it where the problem is instead of wasting all this energy. -- - | ,''`.Stephen Gran | | : :' :[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | `. `'Debian user, admin, and developer | |`- http://www.debian.org | - signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#345067: [Yaird-devel] Bug#345067: ide-geenric inclusion even if it doesn't exist.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 15:20:34 +0100 Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i, wearing my powerpc debian kernel maintainer hat, know that it is not needed on powerpc. This indicates that you are talking about a single kernel build - the one provided by the kernel team, not powerpc kernels in general. Yaird is a general tool for ramdisk generation. Not fitting in with some grand plan of the kernel team possible is brokenness of the tool, but not an RC bug. So thanks for lowering the status, Sven. And could we please now look at this as a non-urgent matter? I still suspect that your proposed fix, Sven, can hurt in cases other than the specific one you know and care about. - Jonas - -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ - Enden er nær: http://www.shibumi.org/eoti.htm -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFD3gKAn7DbMsAkQLgRAj+fAJ0Q+/h1SVbYyDUmnRkoH5EQF7gjzwCaA0JP oGWFBApVT40vq0liJPNTep0= =r01I -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Bug#345067: ide-geenric inclusion even if it doesn't exist.
Hi Erik, ... I hope you have been fine, passed well into the new year and in general had a good start of the year. I am writing this to ask you to have a look at the patch in : http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=345067 and comment on it, since it seem Jonas is refusing to even consider it until you give your accord, which sucks bigtim since this means yaird is unusable on the pegasos machines, which do have a via-ide controller, but powerpc doesn't build ide-generic at all, so trying to force-include it fails. I believe this would be the same on a pci-macintosh using a via-ide based pci ide controller. The patch just makes your force inclusion of ide-generic conditional on the arch not being powerpc, and is rather trivial as you can see. Maybe not the best of solutions, but it has the advantage offixing the issue, and as i had not heard either you or Jonas comenting about this in over a month now, i believe it is important for an updated yaird to be uploaded, especially as linux-2.6.15 is scheduled for movinginto etch in the next 2 weeks, and still defaults on yaird on powerpc. Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#345067: ide-geenric inclusion even if it doesn't exist.
This one time, at band camp, Sven Luther said: Hi Erik, ... I hope you have been fine, passed well into the new year and in general had a good start of the year. I am writing this to ask you to have a look at the patch in : http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=345067 Well, as you pointed out, this patch seems like a bad hack. You're just special casing one known broken architecture, rather than actually addressing the real problem. The real problem is that yaird fails when it tries to modprobe a module that doesn't exist. If it is reasonable to move on when a module that yaird thinks should be loaded does not exist, then it seems to me that the better way to fix this would be in Modprobe.pm and Base.pm. First have modprobe.pm run modprobe -l $module, and if !$rc, return something special (0? -1?, no-module? whatever - just so it's not the same return code that something else uses). Then notice that case in the exec bit in Base.pm, and don't raise a fatal error. If that assumption is unreasonable (I honestly haen't looked at yaird enough to know - I can imagine arguments both ways), then the fix would be adding ide-generic to the module blacklist on the architectures where it causes a problem. It also seems to me that the best way to fix the via82cxxx module needing ide-generic but not depending on it would also be in Modprobe.pm. There, you can just add 'insmod ide-generic' to @lines, and it also seems the right place to test for it. But again, I haven't looked at yaird enough to know if I'm missing something. -- - | ,''`.Stephen Gran | | : :' :[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | `. `'Debian user, admin, and developer | |`- http://www.debian.org | - signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#345067: ide-geenric inclusion even if it doesn't exist.
On Sun, Jan 29, 2006 at 01:09:13PM +, Stephen Gran wrote: This one time, at band camp, Sven Luther said: Hi Erik, ... I hope you have been fine, passed well into the new year and in general had a good start of the year. I am writing this to ask you to have a look at the patch in : http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=345067 Well, as you pointed out, this patch seems like a bad hack. You're just special casing one known broken architecture, rather than actually Well, it has been broken since over a month now, and means the kernel is uninstallable with yaird, so i believe there is some kind of urgency involved here, so why not please appply this patch as a workaround ASAP, until a proper solution can be found ? addressing the real problem. The real problem is that yaird fails when it tries to modprobe a module that doesn't exist. I thought so at first, but after more thinking about the yaird philosophy, i don't think this is a bug but a feature. If the module doesn't exist, then it should well be that the system will fail to boot because of it. This case is different, because not only the module does not exist, but it is also not really needed, and my patch is only to not mark it as needed like it is now, because i, wearing my powerpc debian kernel maintainer hat, know that it is not needed on powerpc. Actually, i believe it is not needed on i386 too, and that this stuff done here is only a workaround for a real solution involving fixing the via/piix/whatever modules. So, this is a fix t oa hacky workaround already implemented in the first place. If it is reasonable to move on when a module that yaird thinks should be loaded does not exist, then it seems to me that the better way to fix this would be in Modprobe.pm and Base.pm. First have modprobe.pm run modprobe -l $module, and if !$rc, return something special (0? -1?, no-module? whatever - just so it's not the same return code that something else uses). Then notice that case in the exec bit in Base.pm, and don't raise a fatal error. Maybe a --ignore-missing-modules option should do this. If that assumption is unreasonable (I honestly haen't looked at yaird enough to know - I can imagine arguments both ways), then the fix would be adding ide-generic to the module blacklist on the architectures where it causes a problem. Huh ? i am not familiar enough with yaird to know about this blacklist, but i believe that having Hardware.pm force-include it may override any kind of blacklist, and should be done with more discrimination in the first place. It also seems to me that the best way to fix the via82cxxx module needing ide-generic but not depending on it would also be in Modprobe.pm. There, you can just add 'insmod ide-generic' to @lines, and it also seems the right place to test for it. Possible, but this is the hack which already went hin, so what can i say. But again, I haven't looked at yaird enough to know if I'm missing something. Thanks for your feedback. /me just hopes we don't need a multi-month flamewar about this before thigns get fixed :/ Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
