Bug#347832: Bug#349693: ITP: gst-fluendo-mp3 -- MP3 decoder plugin for GStreamer
On Wednesday 25 January 2006 21:53, Florian Weimer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > There is no difference between decoders and encoders. Both require > patent licenses. There are a few references to a statement by some of > the patent holders (Thomson IIRC, the company representing one of the > larger MP3 pools) that free[1] decoders can use a royalty-free > license. This statement has either never been made by Thomson, or it > has been withdrawn. Thomson has no intent to go after purely > non-commercial activities, though. So Debian itself should be fine, > but Debian distributors probably aren't. > > [1] "free" as in "beer". If you use your free-as-in-freedom GPLed > decoder for commercial activities, you need to obtain a license. > Thomson made that one pretty clear. This factor makes it significantly different from the other programs which are afflicted with patent claims. If Thomson has made clear statements about a common use case of software based on their patents in Debian then it's quite different to a battle between Adobe and Macromedia. -- http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/ My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/ Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/ My home page -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#347832: Bug#349693: ITP: gst-fluendo-mp3 -- MP3 decoder plugin for GStreamer
On Wed, 2006-01-25 at 19:58 +1100, Russell Coker wrote: > On Wednesday 25 January 2006 17:40, Joe Wreschnig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Wed, 2006-01-25 at 17:08 +1100, Russell Coker wrote: > > > MP3 software does not belong in Debian/main. Unlike many patents the > > > MPEG patents probably have a good basis. > > > > To make it clear, this is a *radical* divergence from our previous > > position. If other distributions start shipping the Fluendo plugin, it > > is also a major step backwards in usability. > > Have we consulted a lawyer about this? Probably not. > > > As far as I am aware OGG media is a good alternative to MPEG in every > > > technical measure. OGG is not as well supported by 3rd party devices (no > > > support in iPod for example) but there are devices which support it > > > (iRiver as an example - incidentally the iRiver gives better sound > > > quality according to the experts and allows recording so is better than > > > the iPod anyway). > > > > It's clear to me you've never had to use an iRiver's Ogg support. It > > fails outside a limited bitrate range, drains battery faster, does not > > read metadata, and is not available on all devices. Newer iRivers also > > use a proprietary communications protocol that is not yet supported in > > Debian. Finally, the recording is MP3 only. > > iRiver will have more incentive to support OGG well if Linux distributions > take a stand on this issue. Hah hah. Yeah, sure. Or iRiver will just ignore us like they always have. (p.s. It's "Ogg". Not "OGG".) > > > By continuing to support MPEG in Debian/main we are decreasing the > > > support of OGG. > > > > By continuing to support MS Word .doc in Debian/main, we are decreasing > > the support of OpenDocument. So what? Users have millions, billions of > > files in these formats. If we can support them, we should. > > If there was a patent on the MS file formats then I would advocate removing > support from Debian. MS claims they've patented the Office 12 format, the ASF format, the FAT filesystem, etc. There's a patent on 90-100% of the archive. > > > This also applies to mpc123. > > > > The Musepack developers are of the opinion that they no longer infringe > > on any patents, as the algorithm has diverged wildly from the MPEG-1 > > Layer 2 algorithm upon which it is based. It's on at least as good legal > > ground as every other audio format in Debian. So please leave it out of > > this discussion. > > Do we have any legal advice on this? No, we don't have any legal advice that says Musepack is patent-free. We don't have legal advice that says Ogg is patent-free. We probably don't have legal advice that says *anything* in the archive is patent-free, and I suspect if we tried we'd find out *nothing* is. I suggest you find something better to do than witch-hunt every non-Ogg format out of main. -- Joe Wreschnig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Bug#347832: Bug#349693: ITP: gst-fluendo-mp3 -- MP3 decoder plugin for GStreamer
Le mercredi 25 janvier 2006 à 11:53 +0100, Florian Weimer a écrit : > Just to clarify since you put that emphasis on decoding: > > There is no difference between decoders and encoders. Both require > patent licenses. But as I understand it, only the encoding patents are enforceable. If we start to remove software from main just because some random companies claim they have patents covering it, we can stop to distribute Debian entirely. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette/\./\ : :' : [EMAIL PROTECTED] `. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED] `- Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom
Bug#347832: Bug#349693: ITP: gst-fluendo-mp3 -- MP3 decoder plugin for GStreamer
* Josselin Mouette: > We are talking about a MP3 *decoding* plugin. Like the ones we > already have in so many packages we have stopped counting. Just to clarify since you put that emphasis on decoding: There is no difference between decoders and encoders. Both require patent licenses. There are a few references to a statement by some of the patent holders (Thomson IIRC, the company representing one of the larger MP3 pools) that free[1] decoders can use a royalty-free license. This statement has either never been made by Thomson, or it has been withdrawn. Thomson has no intent to go after purely non-commercial activities, though. So Debian itself should be fine, but Debian distributors probably aren't. [1] "free" as in "beer". If you use your free-as-in-freedom GPLed decoder for commercial activities, you need to obtain a license. Thomson made that one pretty clear. The entire issue gets more complicated because the Thomson patent pool is not the only one that covers MP3 and its applications. The other significant pool I know about mainly contains patents which deal with software/hardware combinations, so it's unlikely to affect anyone but appliance makers. There is also an argument that patent law itself discriminates between encoders and decoders, but this certainly not true in all jurisdictions. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#347832: Bug#349693: ITP: gst-fluendo-mp3 -- MP3 decoder plugin for GStreamer
On Wednesday 25 January 2006 17:40, Joe Wreschnig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 2006-01-25 at 17:08 +1100, Russell Coker wrote: > > MP3 software does not belong in Debian/main. Unlike many patents the > > MPEG patents probably have a good basis. > > To make it clear, this is a *radical* divergence from our previous > position. If other distributions start shipping the Fluendo plugin, it > is also a major step backwards in usability. Have we consulted a lawyer about this? > > As far as I am aware OGG media is a good alternative to MPEG in every > > technical measure. OGG is not as well supported by 3rd party devices (no > > support in iPod for example) but there are devices which support it > > (iRiver as an example - incidentally the iRiver gives better sound > > quality according to the experts and allows recording so is better than > > the iPod anyway). > > It's clear to me you've never had to use an iRiver's Ogg support. It > fails outside a limited bitrate range, drains battery faster, does not > read metadata, and is not available on all devices. Newer iRivers also > use a proprietary communications protocol that is not yet supported in > Debian. Finally, the recording is MP3 only. iRiver will have more incentive to support OGG well if Linux distributions take a stand on this issue. > > By continuing to support MPEG in Debian/main we are decreasing the > > support of OGG. > > By continuing to support MS Word .doc in Debian/main, we are decreasing > the support of OpenDocument. So what? Users have millions, billions of > files in these formats. If we can support them, we should. If there was a patent on the MS file formats then I would advocate removing support from Debian. > > This also applies to mpc123. > > The Musepack developers are of the opinion that they no longer infringe > on any patents, as the algorithm has diverged wildly from the MPEG-1 > Layer 2 algorithm upon which it is based. It's on at least as good legal > ground as every other audio format in Debian. So please leave it out of > this discussion. Do we have any legal advice on this? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#347832: Bug#349693: ITP: gst-fluendo-mp3 -- MP3 decoder plugin for GStreamer
Le mercredi 25 janvier 2006 à 17:08 +1100, Russell Coker a écrit : > On Wednesday 25 January 2006 12:10, Joe Wreschnig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > 2) We take the patent issue seriously, and drop all MP3 support. > > MP3 software does not belong in Debian/main. Unlike many patents the MPEG > patents probably have a good basis. > > Any software which is based on Frauhoffer patents (MP3 and other similar > encoding systems) should be on an external archive. We are talking about a MP3 *decoding* plugin. Like the ones we already have in so many packages we have stopped counting. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette/\./\ : :' : [EMAIL PROTECTED] `. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED] `- Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom
Bug#347832: Bug#349693: ITP: gst-fluendo-mp3 -- MP3 decoder plugin for GStreamer
Joe Wreschnig wrote: > Are you going to sign the contract? I'm sure not putting my signature on > anything about MP3s. I'm afraid I can't as a poor little NM :) > How does Debian sign a contract anyway? I was in a simliar situation with Real, where they wanted to have signed a contract by a DD. This very DD is then responsible (legally) for compliance with the contract. -- Address:Daniel Baumann, Burgunderstrasse 3, CH-4562 Biberist Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Internet: http://people.panthera-systems.net/~daniel-baumann/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#347832: Bug#349693: ITP: gst-fluendo-mp3 -- MP3 decoder plugin for GStreamer
On Wed, 2006-01-25 at 07:59 +0100, Daniel Baumann wrote: > Joe Wreschnig wrote: > > To get this license one must agree to a contract that forbids > > modification and further redistribution. It's not going to happen for > > Debian. > > Ok, when its not DFSG-compliant but redistributable, why not put it in > non-free (except personal reasons like 'I don't support non-free')? Are you going to sign the contract? I'm sure not putting my signature on anything about MP3s. How does Debian sign a contract anyway? -- Joe Wreschnig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Bug#347832: Bug#349693: ITP: gst-fluendo-mp3 -- MP3 decoder plugin for GStreamer
Joe Wreschnig wrote: > To get this license one must agree to a contract that forbids > modification and further redistribution. It's not going to happen for > Debian. Ok, when its not DFSG-compliant but redistributable, why not put it in non-free (except personal reasons like 'I don't support non-free')? -- Address:Daniel Baumann, Burgunderstrasse 3, CH-4562 Biberist Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Internet: http://people.panthera-systems.net/~daniel-baumann/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#347832: Bug#349693: ITP: gst-fluendo-mp3 -- MP3 decoder plugin for GStreamer
On Wed, 2006-01-25 at 07:49 +0100, Daniel Baumann wrote: > Russell Coker wrote: > > MP3 software does not belong in Debian/main. Unlike many patents the MPEG > > patents probably have a good basis. > > > > Any software which is based on Frauhoffer patents (MP3 and other similar > > encoding systems) should be on an external archive. > > From a technical point of view, I disagree. Fluendo seems to have a > patent license for its plugin, and they are allowed to relicense it > (under some conditions, e.g. the redistribution contract). Assumed, that > this is all sane, there is no legal problem to include it main. To get this license one must agree to a contract that forbids modification and further redistribution. It's not going to happen for Debian. Alternately, you can download the source, which is freely licensed. But then you don't get the patent license. So we're back at the status quo, but with an MP3 decoder that's worse than the one we currently don't have a patent license for. -- Joe Wreschnig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Bug#347832: Bug#349693: ITP: gst-fluendo-mp3 -- MP3 decoder plugin for GStreamer
Russell Coker wrote: > MP3 software does not belong in Debian/main. Unlike many patents the MPEG > patents probably have a good basis. > > Any software which is based on Frauhoffer patents (MP3 and other similar > encoding systems) should be on an external archive. >From a technical point of view, I disagree. Fluendo seems to have a patent license for its plugin, and they are allowed to relicense it (under some conditions, e.g. the redistribution contract). Assumed, that this is all sane, there is no legal problem to include it main. > As far as I am aware OGG media is a good alternative to MPEG in every > technical measure. OGG is not as well supported by 3rd party devices (no > support in iPod for example) but there are devices which support it (iRiver > as an example - incidentally the iRiver gives better sound quality according > to the experts and allows recording so is better than the iPod anyway). Agreed. > By continuing to support MPEG in Debian/main we are decreasing the support of > OGG. I believe that the best thing for the community is to drop MP3 support > from main thus avoiding any potential patent risk for Debian users and also > increasing the support for alternatives that can be legally used. [The patent law arguement is no longer a valid argument, see above. ] >From a philosophical point of view, I would agree. But (assumed the plugin is DFSG-compliant): Debian is devoted to its users. If the users want such a (DFSG-compliant) program/software/package/$whatever, and someone is willing to maintain it, then do it. If you personally don't want to have it in, or you personally don't want to sponsor or use the package, doesn't matter. It is one thing not willing to use something passively, and another thing to actively be against something (no offense). -- Address:Daniel Baumann, Burgunderstrasse 3, CH-4562 Biberist Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Internet: http://people.panthera-systems.net/~daniel-baumann/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#347832: Bug#349693: ITP: gst-fluendo-mp3 -- MP3 decoder plugin for GStreamer
On Wed, 2006-01-25 at 17:08 +1100, Russell Coker wrote: > On Wednesday 25 January 2006 12:10, Joe Wreschnig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > 2) We take the patent issue seriously, and drop all MP3 support. > > MP3 software does not belong in Debian/main. Unlike many patents the MPEG > patents probably have a good basis. To make it clear, this is a *radical* divergence from our previous position. If other distributions start shipping the Fluendo plugin, it is also a major step backwards in usability. > As far as I am aware OGG media is a good alternative to MPEG in every > technical measure. OGG is not as well supported by 3rd party devices (no > support in iPod for example) but there are devices which support it (iRiver > as an example - incidentally the iRiver gives better sound quality according > to the experts and allows recording so is better than the iPod anyway). It's clear to me you've never had to use an iRiver's Ogg support. It fails outside a limited bitrate range, drains battery faster, does not read metadata, and is not available on all devices. Newer iRivers also use a proprietary communications protocol that is not yet supported in Debian. Finally, the recording is MP3 only. Technical qualities of a format have also never been a major consideration of Debian's support of them, or in user choices. If we're going to do it, do it because we're taking a stand or think there's a license violation. Not because we like Ogg. > By continuing to support MPEG in Debian/main we are decreasing the support of > OGG. By continuing to support MS Word .doc in Debian/main, we are decreasing the support of OpenDocument. So what? Users have millions, billions of files in these formats. If we can support them, we should. > This also applies to mpc123. The Musepack developers are of the opinion that they no longer infringe on any patents, as the algorithm has diverged wildly from the MPEG-1 Layer 2 algorithm upon which it is based. It's on at least as good legal ground as every other audio format in Debian. So please leave it out of this discussion. -- Joe Wreschnig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Bug#347832: Bug#349693: ITP: gst-fluendo-mp3 -- MP3 decoder plugin for GStreamer
On Wednesday 25 January 2006 12:10, Joe Wreschnig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > 2) We take the patent issue seriously, and drop all MP3 support. MP3 software does not belong in Debian/main. Unlike many patents the MPEG patents probably have a good basis. Any software which is based on Frauhoffer patents (MP3 and other similar encoding systems) should be on an external archive. As far as I am aware OGG media is a good alternative to MPEG in every technical measure. OGG is not as well supported by 3rd party devices (no support in iPod for example) but there are devices which support it (iRiver as an example - incidentally the iRiver gives better sound quality according to the experts and allows recording so is better than the iPod anyway). By continuing to support MPEG in Debian/main we are decreasing the support of OGG. I believe that the best thing for the community is to drop MP3 support from main thus avoiding any potential patent risk for Debian users and also increasing the support for alternatives that can be legally used. This also applies to mpc123. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
